On 4/8/2014 11:02 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:37:33 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

Ummm, I bought an HP laptop a year ago and it didn't come with ANY

"crapware". OTOH, a friend of mine bought a Dell desktop a few years ago

and it took me an entire day to uninstall all of the "crapware".

Anything you buy today has crapware/trialware in it...


OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:13:55 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

From a Walmart HP laptop

Microsoft
Games:
(Solitaire
and
Mahjong)
Free
pre-installed
Windows
8
games,
ready
to
play.
*
HP
Exclusive!
10
free
game
rental
sessions
of
Plants
vs.
Zombies,
2010
Game
of
the
Year.
Your
HP
computer
also
comes
preloaded
with
a
FREE
game
-
Farm
Frenzy
($19.99
value)
and
HP
Games.
(79)
HP
Help
and
Support
*
HP
Support
Assistant:
Helps
you
maintain
the
performance
of
your
PC
and
resolve
problems
with
automated
updates
and
tune-ups,
built-in
diagnostics,
and
guided
assistance.
(57)
*
HP
Utility
Center:
With
the
HP
Utility
Center
on
Windows
8
PCs,
get
one
place
to
control
your
settings
for
all
things
HP.
*
HP
Quick
Start:
An
experience
resembling
a
traditional
Windows
Start
menu.
Shopping
and
Services
*
VUDU:
Rent,
buy
and
watch
HD
movies
and
TV
shows
on
demand.
(21)
*
Netflix:
Watch
movies
and
TV
online
or
via
DVDs
with
subscription.
(10)
*
HP
Savings
Center:
Helps
you
find
special
offers
based
on
your
preferences,
saving
you
time
and
money.
*
Amazon
Books,
Music,
Photos
and
Videos
*
Walmart
Photo
Center
*
Amazon
Kindle
for
PC
e-reader
*
CyberLink
PowerDVD:
Upgrade
your
video
watching
experience
with
CyberLink's
TrueTheater
technology
including
enhanced
lighting
features
and
improved
audio
quality.
Productivity
and
Tools
*
7-zip:
Free
File
Archive
utility
preinstalled
on
HP
Windows
8
platforms.
Consumers
can
use
7-zip
anywhere,
anytime.
*
HP
ePrint
(85a)
*
Box(R):
Simple,
secure
sharing
from
nearly
anywhere.
(10)
*
Buy
Office
365:
The
most
powerful
Office
yet
with
smarter
versions
of
your
favorite
applications
and
new
cloud
services
that
connect
you
to
your

On Tue, 08 Apr 2014 23:13:55 -0400, Ron wrote:

On 4/8/2014 11:02 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:37:33 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

Ummm, I bought an HP laptop a year ago and it didn't come with ANY

"crapware". OTOH, a friend of mine bought a Dell desktop a few years ago

and it took me an entire day to uninstall all of the "crapware".

Anything you buy today has crapware/trialware in it...


OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
Norton. Again, NO "crapware".
Business class computers often come pretty well stripped
software-wise. Home computers usually come loaded to the hilt with
crapware and trialware.

On 4/8/2014 11:51 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:13:55 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

From a Walmart HP laptop


I didn't buy my HP from Walmart

HP
Support
Assistant:

Still on my computer. Lets you know when certain programs and drivers
need to be updated.


HP
Utility
Center:

Still on my computer. Contains HP recovery manager, HP support
assistant, HP Coolsense settings, and HP Protectsmart AKA HP 3D
Driveguard settings.

HP
Quick
Start:

Lets the computer boot to the desktop instead of the Metro screen. I
never used it (if I even had it). I installed Start8.


CyberLink
PowerDVD:

I use that.

7-zip:

Hell, I installed that.

Buy
Office

This computer came with Microsoft Office Starter 2010 free of charge.

If I go to the Metro Screen (which I hardly ever do) there is a crap
load of free and payware apps in the Microsoft store. I just checked
Amazon, Kindle and Netflix are in there but you have to install the apps.

Bob_Villa wrote:
On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:13:55 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

From a Walmart HP laptop


I have a love hate relationship with HP support assistant. It always wants
to update something. My bios has been redone at least 3 times. There is
also some stuff I don't use, but I usually have the option to decline. It's
seems to want to reboot when I'm trying to work. Mines about 3 years old,
otherwise it's a beautiful machine. Using W7, which I have not updated
windows in a year.

Greg


Microsoft
Games:
(Solitaire
and
Mahjong)
Free
pre-installed
Windows
8
games,
ready
to
play.
*
HP
Exclusive!
10
free
game
rental
sessions
of
Plants
vs.
Zombies,
2010
Game
of
the
Year.
Your
HP
computer
also
comes
preloaded
with
a
FREE
game
-
Farm
Frenzy
($19.99
value)
and
HP
Games.
(79)
HP
Help
and
Support
*
HP
Support
Assistant:
Helps
you
maintain
the
performance
of
your
PC
and
resolve
problems
with
automated
updates
and
tune-ups,
built-in
diagnostics,
and
guided
assistance.
(57)
*
HP
Utility
Center:
With
the
HP
Utility
Center
on
Windows
8
PCs,
get
one
place
to
control
your
settings
for
all
things
HP.
*
HP
Quick
Start:
An
experience
resembling
a
traditional
Windows
Start
menu.
Shopping
and
Services
*
VUDU:
Rent,
buy
and
watch
HD
movies
and
TV
shows
on
demand.
(21)
*
Netflix:
Watch
movies
and
TV
online
or
via
DVDs
with
subscription.
(10)
*
HP
Savings
Center:
Helps
you
find
special
offers
based
on
your
preferences,
saving
you
time
and
money.
*
Amazon
Books,
Music,
Photos
and
Videos
*
Walmart
Photo
Center
*
Amazon
Kindle
for
PC
e-reader
*
CyberLink
PowerDVD:
Upgrade
your
video
watching
experience
with
CyberLink's
TrueTheater
technology
including
enhanced
lighting
features
and
improved
audio
quality.
Productivity
and
Tools
*
7-zip:
Free
File
Archive
utility
preinstalled
on
HP
Windows
8
platforms.
Consumers
can
use
7-zip
anywhere,
anytime.
*
HP
ePrint
(85a)
*
Box(R):
Simple,
secure
sharing
from
nearly
anywhere.
(10)
*
Buy
Office
365:
The
most
powerful
Office
yet
with
smarter
versions
of
your
favorite
applications
and
new
cloud
services
that
connect
you
to
your

Pardon my top posting but you appear to have confused your space bar with your enter key.

On 04/08/2014 11:51 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:

Microsoft
Games:
(Solitaire
and
Mahjong)
Free
pre-installed
Windows
8
games,
ready
to
play.
*
HP
Exclusive!
10
free
game
rental
sessions
of
Plants
vs.
Zombies,
2010
Game
of
the
Year.
Your
HP
computer
also
comes
preloaded
with
a
FREE
game
-
Farm
Frenzy
($19.99
value)
and
HP
Games.
(79)
HP
Help
and
Support
*
HP
Support
Assistant:
Helps
you
maintain
the
performance
of
your
PC
and
resolve
problems
with
automated
updates
and
tune-ups,
built-in
diagnostics,
and
guided
assistance.
(57)
*
HP
Utility
Center:
With
the
HP
Utility
Center
on
Windows
8
PCs,
get
one
place
to
control
your
settings
for
all
things
HP.
*
HP
Quick
Start:
An
experience
resembling
a
traditional
Windows
Start
menu.
Shopping
and
Services
*
VUDU:
Rent,
buy
and
watch
HD
movies
and
TV
shows
on
demand.
(21)
*
Netflix:
Watch
movies
and
TV
online
or
via
DVDs
with
subscription.
(10)
*
HP
Savings
Center:
Helps
you
find
special
offers
based
on
your
preferences,
saving
you
time
and
money.
*
Amazon
Books,
Music,
Photos
and
Videos
*
Walmart
Photo
Center
*
Amazon
Kindle
for
PC
e-reader
*
CyberLink
PowerDVD:
Upgrade
your
video
watching
experience
with
CyberLink's
TrueTheater
technology
including
enhanced
lighting
features
and
improved
audio
quality.
Productivity
and
Tools
*
7-zip:
Free
File
Archive
utility
preinstalled
on
HP
Windows
8
platforms.
Consumers
can
use
7-zip
anywhere,
anytime.
*
HP
ePrint
(85a)
*
Box(R):
Simple,
secure
sharing
from
nearly
anywhere.
(10)
*
Buy
Office
365:
The
most
powerful
Office
yet
with
smarter
versions
of
your
favorite
applications
and
new
cloud
services
that
connect
you
to
your

Agree with that about the space key. At least
he didn't ask for your bank account number so
he can transfer L4,000,000, pounds sterling
out of Nigeria.

On 4/9/2014 4:51 AM, Bubba wrote:
Pardon my top posting but you appear to have confused your space bar
with your enter key.

On 04/08/2014 11:51 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:

Microsoft
Games:
(Solitaire
and
Mahjong)
Free
pre-installed
Windows
8
games,
ready
to
play.
*
HP
Exclusive!
10
free
game
rental
sessions
of
Plants
vs.
Zombies,

Agree with that about the space key. At least
he didn't ask for your bank account number so
he can transfer L4,000,000, pounds sterling
out of Nigeria.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 4/8/2014 11:51 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:
From a Walmart HP laptop

Microsoft
Games:
(Solitaire
and
Mahjong)
Free
CY: And
Solitaire
is
one
of
my
favorites.

pre-installed
Windows
8
CY: I've
heard
that
win 8
doesn't
work
very
well.

10
free
game
rental
sessions
of
Plants
vs.
Zombies,
2010
Game
of
the
Year.
CY: Friend
of
mine's
10
year
old
grandson
was
hooked
on
plants
versus
zombies
a
year
or
so
ago.


HP
Support
Assistant:
Helps
you
maintain
the
performance
of
your
PC
and
resolve
problems
with
automated
updates
and
tune-ups,
built-in
diagnostics,
and
guided
assistance.
CY: Great,
another
program
manager
using
up
RAM.


HP
Quick
Start:
An
experience
resembling
a
traditional
Windows
Start
menu.

CY: Ah,
you
mean
selective
start?

Netflix:
Watch
movies
and
TV
online
or
via
DVDs
with
subscription.

CY: More
continuing
stream
of
spending
money.

Consumers
can
use
7-zip
anywhere,
anytime.
CY: I
tried
that,
but
didn't
do
much
good
for
me.


--
..
Christopher
A.
Young
Learn
about
Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 3:51:32 AM UTC-5, Bubba wrote:
Pardon my top posting but you appear to have confused your space bar with your enter key.

That's how it copy/pasted from the pdf. *L*

| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
computer buyers.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 12:30:05 AM UTC-4, Ron wrote:
On 4/8/2014 11:51 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:13:55 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:



OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was



Norton. Again, NO "crapware".



From a Walmart HP laptop





I didn't buy my HP from Walmart



HP

Support

Assistant:



Still on my computer. Lets you know when certain programs and drivers

need to be updated.





HP

Utility

Center:



Still on my computer. Contains HP recovery manager, HP support

assistant, HP Coolsense settings, and HP Protectsmart AKA HP 3D

Driveguard settings.



HP

Quick

Start:



Lets the computer boot to the desktop instead of the Metro screen. I

never used it (if I even had it). I installed Start8.





CyberLink

PowerDVD:



I use that.



7-zip:



Hell, I installed that.



Buy

Office



This computer came with Microsoft Office Starter 2010 free of charge.



If I go to the Metro Screen (which I hardly ever do) there is a crap

load of free and payware apps in the Microsoft store. I just checked

Amazon, Kindle and Netflix are in there but you have to install the apps.

My HP buying experience is consistent with yours. I bought two from the
HP website about a year part, a couple years ago. They had software
similar to what you got, ie the HP support assistant, getting started app,
Norton, freestarter version of Microsoft Office. I just looked and there
is also an icon for HP Games, but I've never opened it, done anything with it.
I guess it depends on what your definitionn of "crapware" is. What they load may be different depending on the channel it's sold in. The HP load on
mine was fine by me. To me crapware is when you load it up with a lot of
stuff that is totally useless and intrusive, ie popping up with solicitations,
etc. If crapware means anything other than just the OS, then I would think
you're going to find that on any PC from any major manufacturer today.
AFAIK, you'd have to buy from a mom/pop integrator if you want to avoid
having anything but the OS on it.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:34:57 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".



I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

computer buyers.

I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with
free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for
a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.
I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed
fine by me, no issues at all. I think I saw where you posted suggesting
that anti-virus isn't needed. I'd say it's that view that's unwitting.

Oh, and I got a free starter version of Microsoft Office, which I'm still
using. I could have upgraded to the full version for $100, but for my
limited use, there is no need, the free version is fine for me.
I guess that's just all more crapware.

| I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
|
| And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
|
| it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
|
| business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
|
| computer buyers.
|
| I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with
| free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for
| a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.
| I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed
| fine by me, no issues at all.

Symantec has a long history of buying good products,
then bloating them, cutting down functionality, and
raising the price. They then make those products a
success through marketing. (There's been a current
discussion about this on the XP group.)

Last I saw, Norton was among the most bloated of
the AV options, and that's not good because AV is
already very demanding in terms of resources. Other
products Symantec has ruined that I used personally:

* Quarterdeck CleanSweep - They bought it, added it to
System Works, and pretty much removed any useful
functionality.

* AtGuard firewall - One of the best firewalls ever made.
Symantec licensed it, doubled the price, repackaged
it as their own Norton Internet Security, and set over 700
program files to be exempt from the firewall, making it very
easy to use but of little value.

* Powerquest Drive Image and Partition Magic - Powerquest
was no sweetheart. They carefully separated one program into
two, overcharged for them, and claimed they were only licensed
for use on a single hard disk! But at least PM and DI worked.
When Symantec bought them out they were turned into a
massively bloated backup program, which is now off the market.

| I think I saw where you posted suggesting
| that anti-virus isn't needed. I'd say it's that view that's unwitting.
|

I install AV for friends who's computers I manage.
Usually Avast Free. All of them are significant
resource hogs, but if you don't know how to protect
from online risks and/or you can't be bothered, then
AV is a good idea.

I don't use AV personally. I haven't for many years.
I almost never enable javascript, don't have Flash
installed, don't have Adobe plugins of any kind, and don't
have Java installed. I also know what to look for in
terms of risky email.
The Internet with javascript is not safe and cannot
be made safe. But script is required if you use webmail,
Facebook, do a lot of online shopping, etc. I don't do
those things in general, so I have no need for AV. Nearly
all attacks online require javascript, Java, or any Adobe
plugin.

When AV started out they were small programs that
were updated with a 1 MB file once per month. The number
of viruses were in the thousands. Now that number is in
the millions and virus "signatures" are updated in terms
of hours rather than months. The whole approach of AV
is outdated. It's comparing those millions of signatures
to the byte patterns in every file you touch -- a vast
amount of work, and wasteful -- especially when most
of the files you touch are already on your computer!

I guess maybe a good AV analogy would be having 8
attack dogs rather than having a front door. The dogs
are expensive to maintain, they **** all over the yard,
they bark a lot, and they make it hard for friends to visit.
But if you're not going to install a locking front door on
your house then I wouldn't argue with the usefulness of
the dogs.

On 4/9/2014 8:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
computer buyers.



Norton/Symantec is now a great piece of software. No longer a resource
hog. Norton 360 comes with my ISP and I use it. Funny thing is I knew I
had it for a couple of years but never installed it because Norton has
always been a resource hog. A few months ago I decided to give it a try
and I love it. The first thing I noticed was how much faster both of my
laptops booted with 360 instead of Avast which shocked me.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:57:06 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

|

| And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

|

| it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

|

| business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

|

| computer buyers.

|

| I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with

| free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for

| a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.

| I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed

| fine by me, no issues at all.



Symantec has a long history of buying good products,

then bloating them, cutting down functionality, and

raising the price. They then make those products a

success through marketing. (There's been a current

discussion about this on the XP group.)

I install AV for friends who's computers I manage.

Usually Avast Free. All of them are significant

resource hogs, but if you don't know how to protect

from online risks and/or you can't be bothered, then

AV is a good idea.

I certain agree with your general assessment of Norton (and I would add McAfee in the mix).
I have family members on this PC, so I'm using Avast Free, MalwareBytes Pro, and Keyscrambler to offset poor surfing abilities. I like Avast's boot scan...which many others lack.

On 4/9/2014 8:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:
On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:34:57 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".



I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

computer buyers.

I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with
free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for
a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.
I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed
fine by me, no issues at all. I think I saw where you posted suggesting
that anti-virus isn't needed. I'd say it's that view that's unwitting.

Oh, and I got a free starter version of Microsoft Office, which I'm still
using. I could have upgraded to the full version for $100, but for my
limited use, there is no need, the free version is fine for me.
I guess that's just all more crapware.


There is nothing wrong with Norton. There was for years, but it's fine
now. I wouldn't pay for it, too many free alternatives, but I get it for
free so I use it.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 9:19:42 AM UTC-5, Ron wrote:
On 4/9/2014 8:45 AM, trader_4 wrote:

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:34:57 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:

| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was



| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".







I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.



And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version



it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of



business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting



computer buyers.



I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with

free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for

a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.

I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed

fine by me, no issues at all. I think I saw where you posted suggesting

that anti-virus isn't needed. I'd say it's that view that's unwitting.



Oh, and I got a free starter version of Microsoft Office, which I'm still

using. I could have upgraded to the full version for $100, but for my

limited use, there is no need, the free version is fine for me.

I guess that's just all more crapware.





There is nothing wrong with Norton. There was for years, but it's fine

now. I wouldn't pay for it, too many free alternatives, but I get it for

free so I use it.

Don't get excited...I heard you! *L*

On 4/9/2014 9:57 AM, Mayayana wrote:
| I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
|
| And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
|
| it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
|
| business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
|
| computer buyers.
|
| I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came with
| free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where for
| a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional years.
| I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's performed
| fine by me, no issues at all.

Symantec has a long history of buying good products,
then bloating them, cutting down functionality, and
raising the price. They then make those products a
success through marketing. (There's been a current
discussion about this on the XP group.)

Last I saw, Norton was among the most bloated of
the AV options, and that's not good because AV is
already very demanding in terms of resources. Other
products Symantec has ruined that I used personally:


Right now on this computer Norton 360 is using 12mbs to 16mbs of RAM.
Norton *used* to be a resource hog...not any more.

I snipped too much of your post. Just wanted to let you know that you
might wanna try Panda Cloud AV. It is the lightest AV that I've ever
seen, and it also has very good test scores.

http://www.cloudantivirus.com/en/

http://www.av-test.org/en/tests/home...7/janfeb-2014/

On 4/9/2014 10:18 AM, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 8:57:06 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

|

| And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

|

| it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

|

| business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

|

| computer buyers.

|

| I guess I must be one of those "unwitting" buyers. My HP came
with

| free Norton for a year. When I bought it, they had a deal where
for

| a nominal fee, I think it was ~$30, you could get two additional
years.

| I took advantage of that. I got 3 years of Norton and it's
performed

| fine by me, no issues at all.



Symantec has a long history of buying good products,

then bloating them, cutting down functionality, and

raising the price. They then make those products a

success through marketing. (There's been a current

discussion about this on the XP group.)

I install AV for friends who's computers I manage.

Usually Avast Free. All of them are significant

resource hogs, but if you don't know how to protect

from online risks and/or you can't be bothered, then

AV is a good idea.

I certain agree with your general assessment of Norton (and I would
add McAfee in the mix). I have family members on this PC, so I'm
using Avast Free, MalwareBytes Pro, and Keyscrambler to offset poor
surfing abilities. I like Avast's boot scan...which many others
lack.


I also like the boot time scan feature. Norton 360 also has that, and
you're right, none of the other free AVs have that feature AFAIK. I've
never heard of Keyscrambler will have to look it up. Another great tool
for surfing the web is WOT. Not foolproof but it's pretty damn good.


https://www.mywot.com/

http://www.forbes.com/sites/larrymag...ing-passwords/

A flaw in the most popular web encryption system could leave people
vulnerable to data theft according to security researchers. That little
padlock in the lower right corner of a browser window or the letters "https"
in the address bar are supposed to mean that the site is encrypted but the
most popular method, called OpenSSL has had a hole for at least two years
according to researhers.
The Heartbleed bug "allows anyone on the Internet to read the memory of the
systems protected by the vulnerable versions of the OpenSSL software,"
according to Codenomicon's Heartbleed.com site. which added, "This allows
attackers to eavesdrop on communications, steal data directly from the
services and users and to impersonate services and users."

Test sites you visit

This test isn't 100% definitive but it is an indicator of whether the site
you're using is currently vulnerable but doesn't indicate whether it may
have been affected in the past so even if the site you enter comes up clear
there is no guarantee that it wasn't vulnerable earlier. Still, it's worth
checking by clicking here for Filippo Valsorda's report and and here for
Qualys SSL Labs report

https://www.ssllabs.com/ssltest/
There's not much sense in changing passwords, as many other sites are
recommending, until you run this test to determine if the vulnerability is
patched. The SSL Labs URL is a good one to check *any* site you do business
with that uses SSL technology.

--

Bobby G.

Mayayana posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
computer buyers.

+50

--
Tekkie

On 4/9/2014 7:36 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
Mayayana posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was
| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".

I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.
And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version
it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of
business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting
computer buyers.

+50


- infinity

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 7:36:59 PM UTC-4, Tekkie® wrote:
Mayayana posted for all of us...



And I know how to SNIP





| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".



I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

computer buyers.



+50



--

Tekkie

I call BS. As previously stated, the free version of Norton was
installed on my HP when shipped. It's the same as the version you'd
buy retail. It's not loaded up with additional "crapware". I extended
the license for two more years for $30.
I've had it 3 years+ now and I'm very satisfied with it.
As far as hogging resources, I don't see any performance issues here
at all, the PC is fast, performs everything I need it to do very well.

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 10:17:19 AM UTC-4, Ron wrote:
On 4/9/2014 8:34 AM, Mayayana wrote:

| OK, if you say so. The ONLY thing on this PC that was trialware was

| Norton. Again, NO "crapware".



I'd call anything from Symantec crapware.

And when it's pre-installed as a free trial version

it's sleazy crapware. Symantec would be out of

business if they didn't pull that trick on onwitting

computer buyers.







Norton/Symantec is now a great piece of software. No longer a resource

hog. Norton 360 comes with my ISP and I use it. Funny thing is I knew I

had it for a couple of years but never installed it because Norton has

always been a resource hog. A few months ago I decided to give it a try

and I love it. The first thing I noticed was how much faster both of my

laptops booted with 360 instead of Avast which shocked me.

I agree. Like you I actually have it installed. It's been on my
PC for 3+ years now. It came free with the HP system and I extended
the license for 2 more years for $30. That was a good deal, it's
performed fine, no performance issues, etc. It's amazing how people
who don't run it claim to know everything that's wrong with it.

| PC for 3+ years now. It came free with the HP system and I extended
| the license for 2 more years for $30. That was a good deal

It's a good deal compared to what it used to cost. Not
so long ago it was $70 just for the System Works software.
But now there are several well-regarded AV programs that
cost nothing. (I don't know how or why that makes sense
for those companies, but they are free.) Given the history of
Symantec I think there's no question that they would charge
you a lot more if they could get away with it.

If you don't know anything about Symantec's history
then you have no reason to avoid supporting their business.
But you still paid $30 for two years worth of a product
that's easily available for free. I think that fits with my
characterization of "unwitting". I don't mean to be insulting. I
just hate to see people taken in by sleazy companies.

There are a number of products that one just has no reason
to pay for, yet companies get away with selling those products
at a high price simply because the general public doesn't know
the facts. One can often find such products on the shelves
of software stores. Among them are AV, ZIP programs, CD/DVD
writer software, FTP programs, audio editing programs, music
player software, image viewers and hex editors. In all cases those
programs are available free, and the free versions are among the
best.

A truly bogus category is "cleaners" that claim to power up
your PC by removing bad Registry entries and unused junk files.
But lots of people buy that stuff. Those programs are 99%
useless. (They're 100% useless if you check and clean your
TEMP folder occasionally.) The typical Registry "cleaning"
procedure, removing hundreds of "faulty" entries, is roughly
equivalent to removing an old ballpoint pen from your packed
garage. The pen might truly be rubbish, but disposing
of it doesn't make your garage any more useful or any easier
to navigate.

If you don't think that's true then I invite you to look into
what Registry entries are removed and what their function is.
You'll find that the entries generally fall into 2 categories:

* Settings for software that's been removed. Those settings
are harmless and might be useful if the software is ever
re-installed. They take up less room than the ballpoint pen.

* HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\* These would be settings
for components that have been removed, probably when
software was uninstalled. Again, those settings are harmless.
If some software wants to use the specified component you'll
get an error whether the setting is left there or not, because
the component is gone.

But isn't it inefficient for this extra stuff to be left in the
Registry? No. There are several MB of data in the Registry.
Those unused settings might take up 1-10 KB. If you run a
Registry monitor while starting up Internet Explorer you'll
see that IE accesses the Registry *thousands* of times in
about 1 second when it loads. That's stunningly efficient.
To improve that speed by some fraction of a microsecond
would be trying to improve on the speed of instant.
You wouldn't buy a tool that promises to make your garage
door open faster by removing a ballpoint pen from a shelf in
the back of the garage. That's basically what Registry cleaners
claim to do.

All of that kind of thing could be broadly regarded as crapware.
It's not necessarily all bad software, but it's all stuff you don't
need and definitely shouldn't pay for.

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:04:02 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| PC for 3+ years now. It came free with the HP system and I extended

| the license for 2 more years for $30. That was a good deal



It's a good deal compared to what it used to cost. Not

so long ago it was $70 just for the System Works software.

It's still probably $70 for Norton Internet Security if you go buy
it retail. You can find it online, eg Ebay for $25 for a 3 PC license.




But now there are several well-regarded AV programs that

cost nothing. (I don't know how or why that makes sense

for those companies, but they are free.) Given the history of

Symantec I think there's no question that they would charge

you a lot more if they could get away with it.



That's exactly what a business is supposed to do. Maximize
profits. What do you expect? If you had a house to sell, what
would you do?



If you don't know anything about Symantec's history

then you have no reason to avoid supporting their business.

But you still paid $30 for two years worth of a product

that's easily available for free. I think that fits with my

characterization of "unwitting". I don't mean to be insulting. I

just hate to see people taken in by sleazy companies.



I've used Symantec products for years. There is nothing that
I've seen that I would characterize as "sleazy". It's just
that you like a different product or a free product. Use what you want,
but don't characterize others that make other choices as "unwitting".




There are a number of products that one just has no reason

to pay for, yet companies get away with selling those products

at a high price simply because the general public doesn't know

the facts. One can often find such products on the shelves

of software stores. Among them are AV, ZIP programs, CD/DVD

writer software, FTP programs, audio editing programs, music

player software, image viewers and hex editors. In all cases those

programs are available free, and the free versions are among the

best.



Maybe so. And maybe for $30 for two years of current software for
3 PCs, it isn't worth my time trying to figure out which free antivirus alternative is a good one and which isn't. Nor is it worth it to
screw around with what is working. Antivirus is one of the programs
that people have the most trouble with from a compatibility standpoint
with other apps, etc. If it's not broke, I don't have a compelling
need to fix it to save $15 a year.




A truly bogus category is "cleaners" that claim to power up

your PC by removing bad Registry entries and unused junk files.

But lots of people buy that stuff. Those programs are 99%

useless. (They're 100% useless if you check and clean your

TEMP folder occasionally.) The typical Registry "cleaning"

procedure, removing hundreds of "faulty" entries, is roughly

equivalent to removing an old ballpoint pen from your packed

garage. The pen might truly be rubbish, but disposing

of it doesn't make your garage any more useful or any easier

to navigate.



If you don't think that's true then I invite you to look into

what Registry entries are removed and what their function is.

You'll find that the entries generally fall into 2 categories:



* Settings for software that's been removed. Those settings

are harmless and might be useful if the software is ever

re-installed. They take up less room than the ballpoint pen.



* HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\* These would be settings

for components that have been removed, probably when

software was uninstalled. Again, those settings are harmless.

If some software wants to use the specified component you'll

get an error whether the setting is left there or not, because

the component is gone.



But isn't it inefficient for this extra stuff to be left in the

Registry? No. There are several MB of data in the Registry.

Those unused settings might take up 1-10 KB. If you run a

Registry monitor while starting up Internet Explorer you'll

see that IE accesses the Registry *thousands* of times in

about 1 second when it loads. That's stunningly efficient.

To improve that speed by some fraction of a microsecond

would be trying to improve on the speed of instant.

You wouldn't buy a tool that promises to make your garage

door open faster by removing a ballpoint pen from a shelf in

the back of the garage. That's basically what Registry cleaners

claim to do.


The cleaner thing, while I haven't looked into it at great
length, I tend to agree with what you're saying. On the other hand,
there is no question that PCs do tend to slow down over a few
years, eventually start misbehaning, due to specifically what, I'm not
sure it's easy to figure out. And I doubt that the cleaner utilities
are going to solve it. In my experience, at some point, if the
performance has declined, it's behaving erratically and you can't
figure out something that is obvious as the cause, then it's time
to re-install the OS and software, which fixes everything for sure.




All of that kind of thing could be broadly regarded as crapware.

It's not necessarily all bad software, but it's all stuff you don't

need and definitely shouldn't pay for.

I define crapware as pre-installed software on a PC that is totally
unnecessary, useless to most people, and/or intrusive, eg it starts
showing pop-up adds.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 10:04:02 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| PC for 3+ years now. It came free with the HP system and I extended
| the license for 2 more years for $30. That was a good deal

It's a good deal compared to what it used to cost. Not
so long ago it was $70 just for the System Works software.
But now there are several well-regarded AV programs that
cost nothing. (I don't know how or why that makes sense
for those companies, but they are free.) Given the history of
Symantec I think there's no question that they would charge
you a lot more if they could get away with it.

If you don't know anything about Symantec's history
then you have no reason to avoid supporting their business.
But you still paid $30 for two years worth of a product
that's easily available for free. I think that fits with my
characterization of "unwitting". I don't mean to be insulting. I
just hate to see people taken in by sleazy companies.

There are a number of products that one just has no reason
to pay for, yet companies get away with selling those products
at a high price simply because the general public doesn't know
the facts. One can often find such products on the shelves
of software stores. Among them are AV, ZIP programs, CD/DVD
writer software, FTP programs, audio editing programs, music
player software, image viewers and hex editors. In all cases those
programs are available free, and the free versions are among the
best.

A truly bogus category is "cleaners" that claim to power up
your PC by removing bad Registry entries and unused junk files.
But lots of people buy that stuff. Those programs are 99%
useless. (They're 100% useless if you check and clean your
TEMP folder occasionally.) The typical Registry "cleaning"
procedure, removing hundreds of "faulty" entries, is roughly
equivalent to removing an old ballpoint pen from your packed
garage. The pen might truly be rubbish, but disposing
of it doesn't make your garage any more useful or any easier
to navigate.

If you don't think that's true then I invite you to look into
what Registry entries are removed and what their function is.
You'll find that the entries generally fall into 2 categories:

* Settings for software that's been removed. Those settings
are harmless and might be useful if the software is ever
re-installed. They take up less room than the ballpoint pen.

* HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT\CLSID\* These would be settings
for components that have been removed, probably when
software was uninstalled. Again, those settings are harmless.
If some software wants to use the specified component you'll
get an error whether the setting is left there or not, because
the component is gone.

But isn't it inefficient for this extra stuff to be left in the
Registry? No. There are several MB of data in the Registry.
Those unused settings might take up 1-10 KB. If you run a
Registry monitor while starting up Internet Explorer you'll
see that IE accesses the Registry *thousands* of times in
about 1 second when it loads. That's stunningly efficient.
To improve that speed by some fraction of a microsecond
would be trying to improve on the speed of instant.
You wouldn't buy a tool that promises to make your garage
door open faster by removing a ballpoint pen from a shelf in
the back of the garage. That's basically what Registry cleaners
claim to do.

All of that kind of thing could be broadly regarded as crapware.
It's not necessarily all bad software, but it's all stuff you don't
need and definitely shouldn't pay for.

You are welcome to your opinion, which is as useless as you claim the
registry cleaners are. Yes, there are many "scareware" cleaners out
there that tell you you have 13,001 errors in your registry and your
computer is ready to die or go in reverse. They are generally either
spammed or advertised on late night TV.
A GOOD registry cleaner program can very often restore a slow computer
to optimum performance - something that just removing the temp files
cannot do.

I use a professional registry cleaner tool on almost a daily basis in
my work as an IT professional. In 10 minutes it can do what would take
me several hours to accomplish on a good day - and it has been YEARS
since I've had to do a "fresh install" of Windows to get a slow
computer back into shape. Solves a lot of BSOD problems as well (and
crashes)

| A GOOD registry cleaner program can very often restore a slow computer
| to optimum performance

| I use a professional registry cleaner tool on almost a daily basis in
| my work as an IT professional. In 10 minutes it can do what would take
| me several hours to accomplish on a good day - and it has been YEARS
| since I've had to do a "fresh install" of Windows to get a slow
| computer back into shape. Solves a lot of BSOD problems as well (and
| crashes)

Can you give me an example or two of settings
your Registry cleaner removes that make the
difference? I don't know of any.

On Thu, 10 Apr 2014 18:38:01 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| A GOOD registry cleaner program can very often restore a slow computer
| to optimum performance

| I use a professional registry cleaner tool on almost a daily basis in
| my work as an IT professional. In 10 minutes it can do what would take
| me several hours to accomplish on a good day - and it has been YEARS
| since I've had to do a "fresh install" of Windows to get a slow
| computer back into shape. Solves a lot of BSOD problems as well (and
| crashes)

Can you give me an example or two of settings
your Registry cleaner removes that make the
difference? I don't know of any.

I don't bother checking what particular files they are, but they DO
make a difference.

| Can you give me an example or two of settings
| your Registry cleaner removes that make the
| difference? I don't know of any.
|
| I don't bother checking what particular files they are, but they DO
| make a difference.

You don't have to take my word for it. Look at
the settings that your cleaner suggest deleting. Then
look into what they are. I think you'll find most or all
are in one of the two categories I listed: Program settings
for uninstalled software and COM registration settings for
missing COM libraries. (For example, ActiveX controls for
software that wasn't uninstalled properly.) Both types of
settings will be entirely ignored except by the relevant
software, so all they do is take up a tiny bit of space.

Next, go to sysinternals.com and download regmon
or procmon. Run it and then start up IE. On my XP
box with IE6 I see about 8,000 Registry access calls
by IE in the 1-2 seconds it takes to start up. (It might
be even less than 1 second. It takes some time to load
all those lines in the monitor window.)

So you have orphan settings, which will likely
never be written to or read again, in a database that
can handle something like 5,000 to 10,000 accesses
per second. That's why I used the analogy of a ballpoint
pen in a packed garage. If you look at it logically it's clear
that removing those settings couldn't possibly affect the
efficiency of Windows. Companies sell those products
because they appeal to our desire to "run a tight ship".
We feel like we're taking care of business when we see
all those Registry "problems" being "fixed".

There are things that will speed up Windows:

* Stop all unnecessary startup programs.
(Use autoruns from sysinternals.)
As part of that, if you must use AV then try to
adjust it so that it's not scanning every file you
touch every time you touch it.

* Stop unnecessary updating and "pre-loading"
by bloated, overproduced software.

* Disable all unnecessary services.

* Delete the IE cache and then set the limit to
a low number, like 5-10 MB. (IE is tied to
Explorer and a very large cache can slow Explorer
to a crawl.)

* Remove any unnecessary browser plugins for IE.

* Clean up TEMP files. (On XP+ they can be in several
different folders.)

The usefulness of each step will usually be in roughly
descending order. In other words, trimming the startup programs
will have the most effect. Though a giant IE cache can, by itself,
make Windows unusable. (I haven't tested that in Vista/7, but
I know it's true in XP and earlier.)
Cleaning the Registry will be unlikely to ever have any effect.
Sysinternals has a program to defrag the Registry, which is
not a bad idea, but I'm afraid your professional cleaner was
just a waste of money.... and like I said above, you don't have
to take my word for it. You can work it out for yourself.

On Thursday, April 10, 2014 9:23:25 PM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
Sysinternals has a program to defrag the Registry, which is

not a bad idea, but I'm afraid your professional cleaner was

just a waste of money.... and like I said above, you don't have

to take my word for it. You can work it out for yourself.

You seem to have a better understanding of PC's than I do...but I have heard what you are saying many times in different forums. Even CCleaner will do a reg. clean-up!

| You seem to have a better understanding of PC's than I do...but I have
heard what you are saying many times in different forums. Even CCleaner will
do a reg. clean-up!
|

There are so many things I don't know about. (This
morning we were trying to figure out how to keep
woodchucks out of the garden without a fence. Darned
if I know.
But home repair and computers happen to be my specialties.
I've made most of my income as a contractor since 1985.
(Carpentry, renovation, cabinetwork, etc.) But around '99
I also got intrigued by computers (or rather addicted) and
ended up teaching myself programming and web design. (It
actually reminds me a lot of carpentry. The handyman/
troubleshooting quality is similar. The fondness for detail is
also similar, at least for me. And all of those endeavors --
programming, web design and carpentry -- turn out better
if one has an eye for layout, color, grpahics, etc.)

I made some money writing shareware during the PC
craze. I make almost no money from it now, but I still
enjoy it. I build my own computers and also do it for
friends. And I still get about 300 visitors/day for my free
software, utilities, components, sample code and information.
(Much of which was originally written for my own purposes.)

www.jsware.net

A big part of how I learned about the inner workings of
Windows was simply my own impatience. I like to understand
how things work, and I like them to work properly. And not
much works properly with computers if one doesn't understand
a lot about them. Example:
An hour ago I was watching my ladyfriend read a webpage
about woodchucks while some sort of inane Flash cartoon ad
jumped around on the right border of the page. I don't know
how people can stand that when they're trying to read. I last
about 10 seconds before I get fed up and decide to figure
out 1) how the animation works and 2) how I can arrange to
never see it again.

On Friday, April 11, 2014 7:43:01 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:
| You seem to have a better understanding of PC's than I do...but I have

heard what you are saying many times in different forums. Even CCleaner will

do a reg. clean-up!

|



There are so many things I don't know about. (This

morning we were trying to figure out how to keep

woodchucks out of the garden without a fence. Darned

if I know.

But home repair and computers happen to be my specialties.

I've made most of my income as a contractor since 1985.

Can I email you at the "jkp" prefix? (or you could email yours' to mine) Thnx

| Can I email you at the "jkp" prefix?

Yes. I check that one. The address on the website
is fine, too, but I filter that for webmail. It auto-deletes
gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. So if you use one of those
services then jkp is better.

(Weird doings this morning. Eternal September seems
to be down, so I'm using aioe. I see your post but not
my own.)

On Fri, 11 Apr 2014 09:25:10 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Can I email you at the "jkp" prefix?

Yes. I check that one. The address on the website
is fine, too, but I filter that for webmail. It auto-deletes
gmail, yahoo, hotmail, etc. So if you use one of those
services then jkp is better.

(Weird doings this morning. Eternal September seems
to be down, so I'm using aioe. I see your post but not
my own.)

Eternal September has been up and down like a toilet seat for the
last couple of weeks.

Jerry wrote:
"Moe DeLoughan" wrote in message
...
On 3/30/2014 10:15 PM, wrote:

Or buy an off-lease computer with WinXP Pro that is only less than 5
years old with DDR3 ram and SATA hard drive instead of his ancient
ide HD and DDR2 ram.

Bingo. A lot of electronics retailers and electronics recycling
companies sell refurbished second-hand pcs dirt cheap. These are
usually off-lease business models. A guy I know recently replaced
his ancient XP box with a refurbed IBM-era Lenovo running Win 7 Pro
from Microcenter. A big improvement over what he'd had, for only
$130.00. Speaking of which, searching the inventory of retailers such as
Microcenter will still find new pcs running Win 7. In fact, a quick
check of Microcenter's website just turned up more than two dozen
Win 7 desktop models. So if you really don't want to wrestle with
Win 8 (and I can't blame you), you can still choose new and get an
OS that doesn't require completely relearning how to use the pc.

I was not familiar with Microcenter until you posted it here. There
is one about 20 miles from me. This may be the ticket.

Moe and Jerry (especially Moe),

Good suggestion. I am in a similar situation as Jerry and I want to get 2
desktop computers to replace 2 Windows XP Pro SP3 computers that we have
now. This is actually for a small nonprofit that I am associated with. We
don't want Windows 8, but we do want Windows 7.

I will definitely be checking out Microcenter and especially the companies
that sell refurbished second hand PC's. I think there is a Microcenter not
too far from me -- I'll check.

And, with the end of Windows XP support, it looks like we better do some
quick shopping because my hunch is that a lot of other people will also want
existing new or used Windows 7 computers right now before they are all sold
out.

Thanks.

Jerry wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
...
My "words of wisdom" would be to give some information about your
system.

Install Belarc Advisor. Past and copy a final report back here.


Here's some information. I did have 53 updates to download and
install! Still 3 to go. Thank you

I just saw this thread, and I have not read all of the many posts that are
in it.

But, I am like you -- I have two Windows XP computers, and I want to replace
them. I don't want Windows 8. I do want Windows 7. I found a post further
down in the thread from "Moe" and, as I replied, I think his suggestions of
how to find new or used Windows 7 computers are good ones. I am going to
start looking right away.

Tom...now you're starting to repeat yourself! Try not to ramble...*L*

Bob_Villa wrote:
Tom...now you're starting to repeat yourself! Try not to ramble...*L*

True. I did decide to repeat myself here. Seemed like a good idea at the
time!

I noticed in one of your posts that you installed Windows 7 on a Dell
computer. I thought of doing that, and it is still a possibility, but my
two computers are Dell Dimension 3000 and are probably too old and too
limited in resources to be a good choice for installing Windows 7.

On Sat, 12 Apr 2014 11:06:40 -0400, "TomR" wrote:

Jerry wrote:
"Oren" wrote in message
...
My "words of wisdom" would be to give some information about your
system.

Install Belarc Advisor. Past and copy a final report back here.


Here's some information. I did have 53 updates to download and
install! Still 3 to go. Thank you

I just saw this thread, and I have not read all of the many posts that are
in it.

But, I am like you -- I have two Windows XP computers, and I want to replace
them. I don't want Windows 8. I do want Windows 7. I found a post further
down in the thread from "Moe" and, as I replied, I think his suggestions of
how to find new or used Windows 7 computers are good ones. I am going to
start looking right away.

I just deliverd5 brand new Acer Veriton 4630G computers to a customer
- come with win7 downgrade option on win8 pro 64 preinstalled. Can
move to win8 at no extra cost when required. Not cheap at $630 C with
4gb Ram, i5, and 500gb hdd