On 4/1/2014 10:54 PM, Oren wrote:
On Tue, 01 Apr 2014 18:30:41 -0400, Frank
At least it churns the ng up as usenet is dying.

Gosh. We can't be having that happening, huh?


Sarah, get me Aunt Bee, she should be
home now. Oh, fine. Aunt Bee's fine,
too.

Aunt Bee says hey, too. Aunt Bee says she
won't ever give up her tube console radio,
says she likes the warm glow.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Frank" wrote in message
...
On 3/30/2014 9:01 PM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

It's sad that some people get their kicks wasting the time, goodwill and
helpfulness of others but this has been going on for a long, long time.
It
used to be Mac v. IBM in the old, churlish days of modems and bodkins.

When ever they don't come back and enter into discussion, I suspect troll.

I agree. That's an important clue. Here's another. Check out this list of
posters with virtually the same email addy. It certainly seems suspicious!

"lorie"
om

mike w om

SethF om

Joe Turbo om

WindowSpecialist

Rod om

Richard om

toddeus om

DA

Meefirst234 om

Kay om

Most of them have never posted before and most of them don't come back.
They certainly aren't regulars here.

At least it churns the ng up as usenet is dying.

There's that. I will grudingly admit I've learned things from the responses
to these most likely troll posts. I wonder if someone is doing this to
increase click-thrus at some "scraping" website like Homeowner's Hub? More
likely it's one of the resident idiot trolls who gets their kicks from it.

At least trolls know where they can always get a good meal: AHR. )-:

--
Bobby G.

On Tuesday, April 1, 2014 3:56:46 PM UTC-5, Don Phillipson wrote:
"Bob_Villa" wrote in message

...



Max for your system RAM is probably 2GB total(considering availability).



No: max. RAM for the Dell Dimension 2350 is 1 Gb (insufficient for

Win8 as recommended by BV March 30.)

Many people have installed 2Gb (Dell Forums and others) and have worked. The main reason for reporting lower amounts...denser chips were just not available when the specs were written.

On 4/2/2014 6:42 AM, Robert Green wrote:
"Frank" wrote in message
...
On 3/30/2014 9:01 PM, Robert Green wrote:

stuff snipped

It's sad that some people get their kicks wasting the time, goodwill and
helpfulness of others but this has been going on for a long, long time.
It
used to be Mac v. IBM in the old, churlish days of modems and bodkins.

When ever they don't come back and enter into discussion, I suspect troll.

I agree. That's an important clue. Here's another. Check out this list of
posters with virtually the same email addy. It certainly seems suspicious!

"lorie"
om

mike w om

SethF om

Joe Turbo om

WindowSpecialist

Rod om

Richard om

toddeus om

DA

Meefirst234 om

Kay om

Most of them have never posted before and most of them don't come back.
They certainly aren't regulars here.

--
Bobby G.

Pretty sure those are from Home Owners Hub.
Posting via web interface.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 4/1/2014 7:38 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Don't sell yourself short there philo, you are one of the
brightest folks posting here. You gladly share your experience and
knowledge which makes you a great guy to know. ^_^

TDD


watch out Philo he is an ass kisser and wants something out of
you...

Shhhh! I'm trying to get some big batteries from him. O_o

TDD

(snipped)
Yea, I just saw some 128 Gig flash drives on Ebay. I never thought it
would be possible to get 128G on such a tiny stick.... Heck, when they
came out with 16G, I thought that was about the limit. But those 128g
are about $50. For that price, I'll just buy a 500G external hard
drive, or for a few more $$$, a 1TB.


You need to look harder on ebay as they come bigger than 128gb. I have a
512gb from there that unfortunately didn't work but I did get a full
refund. Last night I purchased a new 256gb on ebay for only $25! Like
most both were made in China but the 256gb was shipped from Missouri (I
have the tracking number).

| Planning for the end, I got out my backup drive,
| and put XP on it, with help from my computer
| wizzard.
|
| The Windows update page doesn't function with XP.
| I left the backup drive in last night, and there
| were 133 auto updates waiting for me in the morning.
|
| Now I've got my next hard drive, for when this one
| grows old and fails.
|

Good idea. But one thing you might want to consider:
You could have a new computer by then. In my experience,
XP can deal with waking up in a new computer except
for one thing: Incompatible motherboard chipset drivers
can cause a bluescreen that's nearly impossible to recover
from. You might want to save a copy of your current
motherboard drivers, then boot that backup one more time,
uninstall the drivers on it, and then shut down. If you
then have to restart in a new PC it will install generic
drivers until you can finish setting it up. (All of this
assumes, of course, that you have XP Pro or some other
version that can still be activated after being installed
to a new computer. If you have OEM XP you probably
won't be able to run it on a second computer, as it will
be tied to the original motherboard.)

On 4/1/2014 12:38 AM, gregz wrote:
I just had a friend complaining to me that he was trying to restore
an XP system he has and he said he tried to download service pack 3
for XP and it's no longer available. Not sure that's true, but that's
what he said. If so, that's a real bitch. I can understand not
supporting it anymore, but you would think MSFT would still make
available the existing last updates for it.

I just did it and put it on cd the other day.

Greg


Planning for the end, I got out my backup drive,
and put XP on it, with help from my computer
wizzard.

The Windows update page doesn't function with XP.
I left the backup drive in last night, and there
were 133 auto updates waiting for me in the morning.

Now I've got my next hard drive, for when this one
grows old and fails.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 4/1/2014 7:38 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Don't sell yourself short there philo, you are one of the
brightest folks posting here. You gladly share your experience and
knowledge which makes you a great guy to know. ^_^

TDD


watch out Philo he is an ass kisser and wants something out of
you...

Shhhh! I'm trying to get some big batteries from him. O_o

TDD

For your sex toy invention?

--
Tekkie

posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On Tue, 1 Apr 2014 20:56:57 -0400, Tekkie® wrote:

posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP

join a domain)


Are you the master of your domain?
You bet I am - and I have my wife's permission to say so!!!

I am sorry to say I don't have much of a domain left and my wife certainly
doesn't want anything to do with it. :~(

--
Tekkie

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 09:57:57 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| Planning for the end, I got out my backup drive,
| and put XP on it, with help from my computer
| wizzard.
|
| The Windows update page doesn't function with XP.
| I left the backup drive in last night, and there
| were 133 auto updates waiting for me in the morning.
|
| Now I've got my next hard drive, for when this one
| grows old and fails.
|

Good idea. But one thing you might want to consider:
You could have a new computer by then. In my experience,
XP can deal with waking up in a new computer except
for one thing: Incompatible motherboard chipset drivers
can cause a bluescreen that's nearly impossible to recover
from. You might want to save a copy of your current
motherboard drivers, then boot that backup one more time,
uninstall the drivers on it, and then shut down. If you
then have to restart in a new PC it will install generic
drivers until you can finish setting it up. (All of this
assumes, of course, that you have XP Pro or some other
version that can still be activated after being installed
to a new computer. If you have OEM XP you probably
won't be able to run it on a second computer, as it will
be tied to the original motherboard.)

The video chip is the only real killer, so delete the video driver
from the new drive - leaving it as basic VGA. It then will boot on any
motherboard (in my experience) - might not have sound, or USB, or
Network - but it will boot so you can install the required drivers.

| The video chip is the only real killer, so delete the video driver
| from the new drive - leaving it as basic VGA. It then will boot on any
| motherboard (in my experience) -

I've never had any trouble booting with wrong
video drivers. It just dumps them if they don't work.
But it doesn't hurt to uninstall those, too.

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:21:37 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| The video chip is the only real killer, so delete the video driver
| from the new drive - leaving it as basic VGA. It then will boot on any
| motherboard (in my experience) -

I've never had any trouble booting with wrong
video drivers. It just dumps them if they don't work.
But it doesn't hurt to uninstall those, too.

Boot into Safe Mode to use the last known good configuration.

Change the drivers...

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:21:37 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| The video chip is the only real killer, so delete the video driver
| from the new drive - leaving it as basic VGA. It then will boot on any
| motherboard (in my experience) -

I've never had any trouble booting with wrong
video drivers. It just dumps them if they don't work.
But it doesn't hurt to uninstall those, too.

Depends on the drivers. There are some (cannot remember which ones)
that will NOT alow the computer to boot if the driver is installed and
the video chip is not - - -.

On Thu, 03 Apr 2014 19:28:23 -0700, Oren wrote:

On Thu, 3 Apr 2014 21:21:37 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| The video chip is the only real killer, so delete the video driver
| from the new drive - leaving it as basic VGA. It then will boot on any
| motherboard (in my experience) -

I've never had any trouble booting with wrong
video drivers. It just dumps them if they don't work.
But it doesn't hurt to uninstall those, too.

Boot into Safe Mode to use the last known good configuration.

Change the drivers...
Trust me - that has been tried. On the particular driver in question,
even safe mode will NOT boot. This is on video cards from about 6-10
years ago -about the age of machine we are talking about - and the
video driver was used on some Dell computers (as well as a host of
other brands, including "white box" customs. I've had to search for
operational old boards with the same chip to get the drive booted to
remove the driver - and even repaired a few boards to get the driver
off.. I have not run into one in the last 3 years - the last one was
my brother's shop operating machine (auto repair shop) - luckily I had
just ditched a handful of old computers at the insurance office - one
of which had the same motherboard as his (and a bad power supply,
flakey processor and bad ram from overheating due to bad power supply
fan) and was able to retrieve it. With his processor and ram we were
able to boot the drive and remove the driver - then installed the
drive in a new faster computer, where we then cloned the drive to a
new larger and faster hard drive. The main program was obsolete, and
the only way to re-install it was to buy the new version and pay to
have the data converted - that wasn't going to happen as he was
getting ready to retire and sell the business, so we had no option but
to get the old drive working on the new computer.

| Boot into Safe Mode to use the last known good configuration.
|

The last known good configuration is the one
from the old machine. But you can try it. Good
luck. On the other hand, if it doesn't work you
may have no other options, so why not just uninstall
the drivers before storing the backup? It's not a
lot of work.

Booting to safe mode *should* be fine for graphic
drivers. I've never had a case where I even needed
to do that. But one never knows. Clare@ seems to have
come across something funky. (Which wouldn't surprise
me on a Dell machine. I would never buy one of their
computers for that reason: They customize both hardware
and drivers unnecessarily, so that one is often dependent
on Dell parts and service.)

I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft
has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a
parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable
and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS
like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one
Windows license for every machine. So there's little
documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.
(Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra
to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them
the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another
machine.)

On Friday, April 4, 2014 8:26:32 AM UTC-5, Mayayana wrote:


(Which wouldn't surprise

me on a Dell machine. I would never buy one of their

computers for that reason: They customize both hardware

and drivers unnecessarily, so that one is often dependent

on Dell parts and service.)


May be true on their BIOS's, Motherboards, and fans...and on very old P/S...but I think they're as good/bad as any of the other basic PC's. IMHO
(and parts are cheaper for them of eBay!)

| I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft
| has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a
| parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable
| and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS
| like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one
| Windows license for every machine. So there's little
| documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.
| (Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra
| to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them
| the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another
| machine.)
|
|
| I have never had a problem installing a XP pro (OEM) on another
| machine.
|

The original issue was about having it all set
up on a hard disk, then moving that to a new
machine with new hardware. So the problem
there would be whether XP could "survive" the
move.

OEM is a source of confusion. There's been
OEM version Windows, Full version, and Pro version
in the past. The typical prices were about
$100/$200/$300.
(At least they have been in the past. I just took
a look at a reseller site and they seem to have
prices all over the place, with a lot more variations:
64-bit only vs 64/32, key only with no disk, etc.
I guess both the licensing and the value of a Windows
disk have been getting more flexible.)

OEM Home is licensed to be installed on only a single
machine. It's the license that OEM builders use on
most retail PCs. One pays extra for a "real" Windows
license that can be installed on any number of machines,
as long as it's one at a time. Pro can also be installed
on multiple machines.

There was a court case a few years ago where
MS was trying to stop the sale of OEM disks online.
Since it was resolved, one can still buy an OEM
disk but the seller must also provide a piece of
hardware, as per the license -- any hardware.

Looking at buycheapsoftware.com I see that
they claim to sell such a thing as "OEM Pro". I
would guess that's Pro without a box or manual,
but still licensed for multiple installs. I'm not sure,
but from what you say it sounds that way.

The whole thing gets further confused by the
effort of resellers to make the product look good.
OEM Windows is often referred to as "Full OEM"
while Full version might be called anything except
"Pro".
In any case, if one buys a "Full OEM" disk it
will probably not activate if installed to a second
machine with different hardware. If I were going to
buy "OEM Pro" I'd want to see the license first to
make certain that it wouldn't be limited to a
single install.

On 2014-04-04, Mayayana wrote:

The original issue was about having it all set
up on a hard disk, then moving that to a new
machine with new hardware. So the problem
there would be whether XP could "survive" the
move.

In my case, it did NOT. Moved the XP 60G HDD from a Vaio (asus
mobo) w/ 2.5MHz Intel P4 cpu to a Vaio (asus mobo) w/ 1.4MHz Intel P4
cpu. Both boxes almost idential except for cpu and memory (RDRAM vs
SDRAM). XP would not boot, even into safe mode, despite similarities
of systems. I think it was the difference in memory or FSB speed (100
vs 133). Whatever, it didn't fly.

nb

On Friday, April 4, 2014 11:53:28 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:26:32 -0400, "Mayayana"

wrote:





| Boot into Safe Mode to use the last known good configuration.

|



The last known good configuration is the one

from the old machine. But you can try it. Good

luck. On the other hand, if it doesn't work you

may have no other options, so why not just uninstall

the drivers before storing the backup? It's not a

lot of work.



Booting to safe mode *should* be fine for graphic

drivers. I've never had a case where I even needed

to do that. But one never knows. Clare@ seems to have

come across something funky. (Which wouldn't surprise

me on a Dell machine. I would never buy one of their

computers for that reason: They customize both hardware

and drivers unnecessarily, so that one is often dependent

on Dell parts and service.)



I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft

has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a

parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable

and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS

like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one

Windows license for every machine. So there's little

documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.

(Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra

to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them

the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another

machine.)





I have never had a problem installing a XP pro (OEM) on another

machine.

I haven't either. But what they appear to be proposing is to try
to continue to install XP on a new computer that you buy today and
right on into the future, indefinetly. And I haven't tried that, nor
would I plan on doing it. It assumes that appropriate drivers for
XP, an OS that has been EOL'd, are going to be available for new video
chips, I/O chips etc. Fact is no one is going to waste their time
certifying drivers, making sure they work with current hardware, etc.
And it's not MSFT's fault. Nor is it even what the OP
is asking for, so IDL why a bunch of people are apparently advocating
it.

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 09:26:32 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:


| Boot into Safe Mode to use the last known good configuration.
|

The last known good configuration is the one
from the old machine. But you can try it. Good
luck. On the other hand, if it doesn't work you
may have no other options, so why not just uninstall
the drivers before storing the backup? It's not a
lot of work.

Booting to safe mode *should* be fine for graphic
drivers. I've never had a case where I even needed
to do that. But one never knows. Clare@ seems to have
come across something funky. (Which wouldn't surprise
me on a Dell machine. I would never buy one of their
computers for that reason: They customize both hardware
and drivers unnecessarily, so that one is often dependent
on Dell parts and service.)

Just about every one turns into "the Dell from Hell" when something
goes wrong. I'd never sell one. And when I get one offered to me to
fix and give to someone I CRINGE. It's usually not worth the
downstream agravation.

I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft
has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a
parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable
and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS
like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one
Windows license for every machine. So there's little
documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.
(Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra
to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them
the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another
machine.)

Can you imaging what a "wild west" the computer world would be without
someone like Microsoft with the critical mass to influence (or even
control) how software and hardware interact? I can. I've been
involved with computers from before Microsoft became the "standard" -
when there were 4 or 5 different incompatible versions of CPM, as many
different incompatible versions of xNIX, 5 or six competing hard-drive
standards, at leat 5 different video standards (incompatible) and as
many different data formats.

As for the extra $100 for PRO, that is not to allow moving from
machine to machine - OEM versions of PRO are also only licenced to the
machine it is sold with. Pro provides all the network connectivity for
joining domains etc that is not included in the home or standard
versions.

If you buy a "retail" copy of Windows it comes with a pretty full set
of drivers - and more are available on the update site - and you can
legally move it to a new machine. You pay a significant premium for
that right - which also includes the right to technical support. OEM
software is to be supported by the OEM (oh yeah!! - ever try to get
OS support from Dell (or Acer, or any other manufacturer)?)

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 13:42:47 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:



| I think a big part of the problem is that Microsoft
| has had a monopoly and could afford to adopt a
| parochial attitude. Windows should be more adaptable
| and less brittle in dealing with new hardware, but MS
| like to imagine that's not relevant. They assume one
| Windows license for every machine. So there's little
| documentation or adaptation of the OS for being moved.
| (Despite the fact that they charge about $100 extra
| to millions of people for the Pro license that gives them
| the legal right to move their "license" and OS to another
| machine.)
|
|
| I have never had a problem installing a XP pro (OEM) on another
| machine.
|

The original issue was about having it all set
up on a hard disk, then moving that to a new
machine with new hardware. So the problem
there would be whether XP could "survive" the
move.

OEM is a source of confusion. There's been
OEM version Windows, Full version, and Pro version
in the past. The typical prices were about
$100/$200/$300.
(At least they have been in the past. I just took
a look at a reseller site and they seem to have
prices all over the place, with a lot more variations:
64-bit only vs 64/32, key only with no disk, etc.
I guess both the licensing and the value of a Windows
disk have been getting more flexible.)

OEM Home is licensed to be installed on only a single
machine. It's the license that OEM builders use on
most retail PCs. One pays extra for a "real" Windows
license that can be installed on any number of machines,
as long as it's one at a time. Pro can also be installed
on multiple machines.


ONLY Retail PRO. OEM Pro is for the original installed machine ONLY.

There was a court case a few years ago where
MS was trying to stop the sale of OEM disks online.
Since it was resolved, one can still buy an OEM
disk but the seller must also provide a piece of
hardware, as per the license -- any hardware.

Looking at buycheapsoftware.com I see that
they claim to sell such a thing as "OEM Pro". I
would guess that's Pro without a box or manual,
but still licensed for multiple installs. I'm not sure,
but from what you say it sounds that way.

That assumption is wrong.

The whole thing gets further confused by the
effort of resellers to make the product look good.
OEM Windows is often referred to as "Full OEM"
while Full version might be called anything except
"Pro".

"Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.

No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
"restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
additional RAM can trigger it)

On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
an installation key in many cases.
In any case, if one buys a "Full OEM" disk it
will probably not activate if installed to a second
machine with different hardware. If I were going to
buy "OEM Pro" I'd want to see the license first to
make certain that it wouldn't be limited to a
single install.

On 4 Apr 2014 19:48:29 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2014-04-04, Mayayana wrote:

The original issue was about having it all set
up on a hard disk, then moving that to a new
machine with new hardware. So the problem
there would be whether XP could "survive" the
move.

In my case, it did NOT. Moved the XP 60G HDD from a Vaio (asus
mobo) w/ 2.5MHz Intel P4 cpu to a Vaio (asus mobo) w/ 1.4MHz Intel P4
cpu. Both boxes almost idential except for cpu and memory (RDRAM vs
SDRAM). XP would not boot, even into safe mode, despite similarities
of systems. I think it was the difference in memory or FSB speed (100
vs 133). Whatever, it didn't fly.

nb
Check what video chip was on each board.

| "Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
| More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
| install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
| the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
| NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
| practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.
|
| No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
| "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
| installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
| disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
| install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
| hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
| additional RAM can trigger it)
|
| On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
| an installation key in many cases.
|

I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. One can buy
an OEM disk online. It's a Windows install disk. It's not
a restore disk. A restore disk not something one buys. It
just comes with some PCs. You're conflating two different
things.

OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. Microsoft
sells licenses to those companies in bulk. (HP, Dell, etc.)
Those companies then sometimes sell their overstock
as true Windows install disks but with an OEM license version
key. It's licensed to be installed on a single PC. It comes with
a key that works, but it can't be activated a second time on
different hardware. If you buy the OEM install disk then
officially you are then the OEM. That's the other difference
with an OEM license: You are responsible for the tech
support because you're the OEM. But you can install that
copy of Windows to any machine -- once.

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 00:11:19 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| "Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
| More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
| install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
| the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
| NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
| practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.
|
| No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
| "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
| installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
| disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
| install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
| hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
| additional RAM can trigger it)
|
| On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
| an installation key in many cases.
|

I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. One can buy
an OEM disk online. It's a Windows install disk. It's not
a restore disk. A restore disk not something one buys. It
just comes with some PCs. You're conflating two different
things.
No I'm not confusing them.. LEGALLY you cannot buy an OEM disk
separate from hardware. Used to be you could buy it with a memory
chip. They were often sold with defective parallel port cards od dead
bios chips just to get around the licence issues - sorta.

When Microsoft clamped down and said a processor or mother board was
required, the resellers started selling them with defective
motherboards which they disposed of for you to save shipping charges.
I know this was done, because I bought a few. (for my own personal
use)

I worked for a legitimate OEM for 5 years

OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. Microsoft
sells licenses to those companies in bulk. (HP, Dell, etc.)
Those companies then sometimes sell their overstock
as true Windows install disks but with an OEM license version
key. It's licensed to be installed on a single PC. It comes with
a key that works, but it can't be activated a second time on
different hardware.

It cannot be LEGALLY installed on another machine - Physically, there
is nothing stopping you from doing it (or even installing it on 5
computers at once)
It will eventually ask for and fail activation, but when you do the
phone activation it just asks how many machines it has been installed
on - and if you lie and say "one" it will activate with no problem -
IF it is a full install.
A restore disk is a different story - and you CAN buy restore disks on
ebay for some computers.
If you buy the OEM install disk then
officially you are then the OEM. That's the other difference
with an OEM license: You are responsible for the tech
support because you're the OEM. But you can install that
copy of Windows to any machine -- once.


If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally
buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way
to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately
(without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement
with Microsoft.

| If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally
| buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way
| to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately
| (without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement
| with Microsoft.
|

This is an interesting issue. And confusing. At the following link
an MS spokewoman is quoted saying that using OEM is
fine, as long as you provide the support (Vista):

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2087792,00.asp

At this link Microsoft has apparently changed their tune
for Win7:

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/is-it...microsoft/1561

Interestingly, neither Ed bott's link to the actual system
builder license, nor Microsoft's own links on their own site,
are working. I get server error 500 on all of them. I tried
3 different links at MS. This was one of them:
http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/lice..._licenses.aspx

Despite refusing to show me a copy of the license, they
do say in a FAQ for Win8 that OEM is not for personal use:

http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/lice..._faq.aspx#faq2

Meanwhile, there's this about Win8 from Mary Jo Foley:

"But the new Windows 8 system-builder license includes a personal-use
license that stipulates a DIYer/hobbyist can buy the System Builder
software, install it on one's own PC or virtual machine and keep the right
to transfer that license to another PC that the individual owns."

http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8-prici...-7-7000004361/

And at this official Windows blog it clearly states that DIY builders can
buy OEM Win8:

http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/b...8-pricing.aspx

"If you are building your own PC from scratch... - you will want to purchase
the Windows 8 edition or Windows 8 Pro edition OEM product known as "System
Builder". You can find these products online at local retailers."

Both the OEM and "full retail box", though priced differently,
are selling for the same price at buycheapsoftware.com.
($93 and $96 respectively.)

What does all that mean? I think there are two issues.

One is that their licensing schemes are dubious to begin
with and MS probably doesn't want to shed much light on them.
They claim OEM Windows is licensed to a piece of plastic,
yet they also claim it's intellectual property. My motherboard
never agreed to any license. Then they define OEM licensing,
yet claim that DIY builders can't use that license. Why not,
if we act as OEMs and take responsibility for support? When
I bought full version Win98 the license said I could transfer
my license to another person, but that only one transfer is
allowed. Yet that illegally defies the first sale doctrine. (They
could say I agreed to the license in buying and using the
software, but then why can't a book publisher put such a
license inside their book?)

The other issue is that MS wants to sell Windows and wants
all PCs to run Windows. It's not in their interest to stop DIY
builders. Also, OEM companies like Dell like to sell their
overstock when a Windows version goes out, which is only
fair, since they help Microsoft by buying millions of licenses
upfront so that MS can claim that Vista or Win8 has "already
sold xx million copies". Contrasted with the OEMs are the
small business system builders who don't want OEM Windows
to be available or legal. (The same trick plumbers and electricians
use: If you can't legally do it yourself then the people who
can do it can charge a bundle.)

So I'm guessing that Microsoft is deliberately obfuscating
the whole issue, so that they can appear to support all
of the different parties involved. They may be giving a break
to online retailers in order to get the full version pricing in
line with OEM version pricing. In that case it would make sense
to just buy the full version. Otherwise, assuming I ever find
a reason to touch Win8+ with a proverbial 10-foot-pole, I
wouldn't see any reason not to get the OEM version.

I suppose that maybe one could also just sign up to
become an official system builder, but of course I can't find
anyplace that Microsoft will tell me what that entails, either.

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 10:20:28 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally

| buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way

| to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately

| (without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement

| with Microsoft.

|



This is an interesting issue. And confusing. At the following link

an MS spokewoman is quoted saying that using OEM is

fine, as long as you provide the support (Vista):



http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2087792,00.asp



At this link Microsoft has apparently changed their tune

for Win7:



http://www.zdnet.com/blog/bott/is-it...microsoft/1561



Interestingly, neither Ed bott's link to the actual system

builder license, nor Microsoft's own links on their own site,

are working. I get server error 500 on all of them. I tried

3 different links at MS. This was one of them:

http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/lice..._licenses.aspx



Despite refusing to show me a copy of the license, they

do say in a FAQ for Win8 that OEM is not for personal use:



http://www.microsoft.com/OEM/en/lice..._faq.aspx#faq2



Meanwhile, there's this about Win8 from Mary Jo Foley:



"But the new Windows 8 system-builder license includes a personal-use

license that stipulates a DIYer/hobbyist can buy the System Builder

software, install it on one's own PC or virtual machine and keep the right

to transfer that license to another PC that the individual owns."



http://www.zdnet.com/windows-8-prici...-7-7000004361/



And at this official Windows blog it clearly states that DIY builders can

buy OEM Win8:



http://blogs.windows.com/windows/b/b...8-pricing.aspx



"If you are building your own PC from scratch... - you will want to purchase

the Windows 8 edition or Windows 8 Pro edition OEM product known as "System

Builder". You can find these products online at local retailers."



Both the OEM and "full retail box", though priced differently,

are selling for the same price at buycheapsoftware.com.

($93 and $96 respectively.)



What does all that mean? I think there are two issues.



One is that their licensing schemes are dubious to begin

with and MS probably doesn't want to shed much light on them.

They claim OEM Windows is licensed to a piece of plastic,

yet they also claim it's intellectual property. My motherboard

never agreed to any license. Then they define OEM licensing,

yet claim that DIY builders can't use that license. Why not,

if we act as OEMs and take responsibility for support? When

I bought full version Win98 the license said I could transfer

my license to another person, but that only one transfer is

allowed. Yet that illegally defies the first sale doctrine. (They

could say I agreed to the license in buying and using the

software, but then why can't a book publisher put such a

license inside their book?)



The other issue is that MS wants to sell Windows and wants

all PCs to run Windows. It's not in their interest to stop DIY

builders. Also, OEM companies like Dell like to sell their

overstock when a Windows version goes out, which is only

fair, since they help Microsoft by buying millions of licenses

upfront so that MS can claim that Vista or Win8 has "already

sold xx million copies". Contrasted with the OEMs are the

small business system builders who don't want OEM Windows

to be available or legal. (The same trick plumbers and electricians

use: If you can't legally do it yourself then the people who

can do it can charge a bundle.)



So I'm guessing that Microsoft is deliberately obfuscating

the whole issue, so that they can appear to support all

of the different parties involved. They may be giving a break

to online retailers in order to get the full version pricing in

line with OEM version pricing. In that case it would make sense

to just buy the full version. Otherwise, assuming I ever find

a reason to touch Win8+ with a proverbial 10-foot-pole, I

wouldn't see any reason not to get the OEM version.



I suppose that maybe one could also just sign up to

become an official system builder, but of course I can't find

anyplace that Microsoft will tell me what that entails, either.

Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying
a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed
up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's
supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives,
more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently
you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton
for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of
recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the
drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.

| Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying
| a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed
| up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's
| supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives,
| more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently
| you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton
| for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of
| recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the
| drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.

That certainly makes sense for most people. PCs
are cheap these days. This sub-thread was just
dealing with potential issues that people saving
a backup-disk or disk image might face if, for some
reason, they end up needing to install that to a
different PC. There can be both licensing and
hardware/software issues. Your recovery DVDs
may be useless except on the PC you bought. That's
not so bad if you only paid $300 for the computer,
but it's something to be aware of. A compilation
of hardware, combined with a software operating
system, is being sold as virtually a disposable one-
piece unit.

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 11:24:27 AM UTC-4, Mayayana wrote:
| Like most people, I just avoid all that confusion and trouble by buying

| a pre-built PC from a major manufacturer. It comes with a licensed

| up to date OS, the hardware is all tested to run with the OS, it's

| supported, still allows reasonable configuration of adding drives,

| more memory, etc, it's available at competitive prices and frequently

| you can get other great deals, like MSFT Office starter for free, Norton

| for a year for free, full Office for $100, etc. Then I make a set of

| recovery DVD's. It even has the whole as shipped system image on the

| drive for recovery too. No fuss, no muss.



That certainly makes sense for most people. PCs

are cheap these days. This sub-thread was just

dealing with potential issues that people saving

a backup-disk or disk image might face if, for some

reason, they end up needing to install that to a

different PC. There can be both licensing and

hardware/software issues. Your recovery DVDs

may be useless except on the PC you bought.

Yes, I would expect that it's very likely the recovery
disks would be useless, except on the original PC.




That's

not so bad if you only paid $300 for the computer,

but it's something to be aware of.

Not sure that it matters if the PC cost $400 or $700.
If one part of that PC fails, eg the hard drive, I can
replace it and recover using the recovery disks. And if
you decide to replace the whole thing, then it comes with
a new OS. Also, in any of these systems, considering all
that you get for $400 or $700, you're not paying very much
for an OS. It's not like you have a $250 OS that you should
expect to be able to move to any machine. It used to be that
you got an OS CD, DVD, etc that you could do that with. But
the way most PC's are shipped today, you don't get anything.
My HP's didn't come with even recovery disks. They just bug
you to create them on your own, which of course you should.

Another really dumb thing that's going on, at least with HP,
is that when you use the recovery disks, you wind up wiping
out the entire drive and any and all partitions. You would think
they would give you the option of doing a recovery to just the
main system partition and optionally leave any other partitions
alone. That way if the system is getting screwed up, but it's
still running, you could copy stuff you want to save to the other
partition, then do the recovery. Even worse, it's not clear which
way it actually works. I saw threads where people got conflicting
answers from HP. Some were being told that you could leave existing
partitions on there and they would be OK. I had to do this a few months
ago and found out that it does indeed delete all partitions, but I
was prepared for it. Other than that, it worked really well. Had it
restored in less than a half hour.


A compilation

of hardware, combined with a software operating

system, is being sold as virtually a disposable one-

piece unit.

Which is how most consumer products have always been sold.

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 01:32:42 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 01:01:53 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 00:11:19 -0400, "Mayayana"
wrote:

| "Full OEM" is a microsoft OEM install disk
| More common is an OEM RESTORE disk, which is basically an image
| install of the OS for the particular PC model - which may only include
| the drivers for the hardware installed on that model, and which can
| NOT be installed on a competitor's machine. (not just legally - but in
| practice as well) Try to install a Dell restore disk to a Toshiba.
|
| No disks are supplied with the computer - you need to make your own
| "restore disk". The key provided may or may not work on a "full oem"
| installation, and generally will not work with a "retail" install
| disk. In many cases you do not need to authorize the OEM restore
| install unless something has been changed from the OEM spec (bigger
| hard drive, different video, different networking, and sometimes even
| additional RAM can trigger it)
|
| On Windows 7 and 8 OEM restore installs, they are not even supplying
| an installation key in many cases.
|

I'm afraid I've opened a can of worms. One can buy
an OEM disk online. It's a Windows install disk. It's not
a restore disk. A restore disk not something one buys. It
just comes with some PCs. You're conflating two different
things.
No I'm not confusing them.. LEGALLY you cannot buy an OEM disk
separate from hardware. Used to be you could buy it with a memory
chip. They were often sold with defective parallel port cards od dead
bios chips just to get around the licence issues - sorta.

When Microsoft clamped down and said a processor or mother board was
required, the resellers started selling them with defective
motherboards which they disposed of for you to save shipping charges.
I know this was done, because I bought a few. (for my own personal
use)

I worked for a legitimate OEM for 5 years

OEM stands for original equipment manufacturer. Microsoft
sells licenses to those companies in bulk. (HP, Dell, etc.)
Those companies then sometimes sell their overstock
as true Windows install disks but with an OEM license version
key. It's licensed to be installed on a single PC. It comes with
a key that works, but it can't be activated a second time on
different hardware.

It cannot be LEGALLY installed on another machine - Physically, there
is nothing stopping you from doing it (or even installing it on 5
computers at once)
It will eventually ask for and fail activation, but when you do the
phone activation it just asks how many machines it has been installed
on - and if you lie and say "one" it will activate with no problem -
IF it is a full install.
A restore disk is a different story - and you CAN buy restore disks on
ebay for some computers.
If you buy the OEM install disk then
officially you are then the OEM. That's the other difference
with an OEM license: You are responsible for the tech
support because you're the OEM. But you can install that
copy of Windows to any machine -- once.


If you are not licenced with Microsoft as an OEM you cannot legally
buy OEM software from Microsoft or through distribution (the only way
to legally buy OEM software) Any OEM selling the software separately
(without a computer) is technically breaking his licence agreement
with Microsoft.


If you have the tiniest amount of information, (a model number, maybe
a serial, maybe not) an OEM will sell you an install disk, typically
$10.
I have a Dell disk and an HP disk.
They will work on any machine I have ever tried to use them on as long
as you come up with a 25 digit code. That does not have to be
installed on a machine from the same company that sold that code.
MS may have enforced that once but not for years.
I am currently typing on a no name PC with an Intel branded system
board running on an OEM version of XP that was originally sold on a
Dell. I just needed the system board drivers for this board to install
it.
True of an OEM INSTALL disk, Won't work with an OEM RESTORE disk.
Basically any OEM INSTALL disk is a microsoft install disk, the same
as a retail disk, but with an OEM licence, and requiring an OEM key.

Up until Windows 7 (not sure about 7 and 8) the key was specific to
the actual "product" - and each product had it's own disk.

With Win7 and on, you can get a disk that will install as 32 or 64
bit, and sometimes even standard or professional, depending on the key
used. Standard practice is to buy the key and download the install (a
cheapassed way of doing things, as far as I'm concerned)

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 12:56:42 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

Another really dumb thing that's going on, at least with HP,
is that when you use the recovery disks, you wind up wiping
out the entire drive and any and all partitions. You would think
they would give you the option of doing a recovery to just the
main system partition and optionally leave any other partitions
alone. That way if the system is getting screwed up, but it's
still running, you could copy stuff you want to save to the other
partition, then do the recovery. Even worse, it's not clear which
way it actually works. I saw threads where people got conflicting
answers from HP. Some were being told that you could leave existing
partitions on there and they would be OK. I had to do this a few months
ago and found out that it does indeed delete all partitions, but I
was prepared for it. Other than that, it worked really well. Had it
restored in less than a half hour.

I would not have a PC with just one drive in it. The idea is you have
a fairly small C: drive with nothing but software on it and ALL of
your work space, data files or whatever is on the D: drive. You can
simply copy that drive to your backup and restore it with drag and
drop. Then you image your C: to back that up after you have changed
all of your program destination directories.. Even if you did use the
restore disks, you still have not lost any data.

The dumbest thing I have ever seem is people using "My Documents" for
anything. That is buried in windoze and the first thing you lose even
if you just delete the windows directory and just reinstall it.
"My Documents is NOT burried in the windows directory. Never has
been. It is in the "documents and settings" directory in Pre Win7, and
in the "users" directory in 7 and up.

If you use a "restore" disk, you use your documents if they are
anywhere on the "C" partition, or anywhere on the "C" drive if the
original install is a single operating partition.

If you use an "install" disk you can re-install without affecting the
data if you do a "repair install" with XP and previous. In "most"
cases the repair install won't even require re-installation of most
software.

If you do a "full install" it will overwrite anything in the boot
partition, but leave everything in an "extended partition" (such as a
"D" drive or data partition on a large single hard drive) untouched.

Always good to have a backup anyway.

On 4/3/2014 7:10 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 4/1/2014 7:38 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Don't sell yourself short there philo, you are one of the
brightest folks posting here. You gladly share your experience and
knowledge which makes you a great guy to know. ^_^

TDD


watch out Philo he is an ass kisser and wants something out of
you...

Shhhh! I'm trying to get some big batteries from him. O_o

TDD

For your sex toy invention?

Yea, the one the size of a fork lift. o_O

TDD

On Saturday, April 5, 2014 5:52:42 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 12:56:42 -0400, wrote:



On Sat, 5 Apr 2014 08:48:16 -0700 (PDT), trader_4

wrote:



Another really dumb thing that's going on, at least with HP,

is that when you use the recovery disks, you wind up wiping

out the entire drive and any and all partitions. You would think

they would give you the option of doing a recovery to just the

main system partition and optionally leave any other partitions

alone. That way if the system is getting screwed up, but it's

still running, you could copy stuff you want to save to the other

partition, then do the recovery. Even worse, it's not clear which

way it actually works. I saw threads where people got conflicting

answers from HP. Some were being told that you could leave existing

partitions on there and they would be OK. I had to do this a few months

ago and found out that it does indeed delete all partitions, but I

was prepared for it. Other than that, it worked really well. Had it

restored in less than a half hour.



I would not have a PC with just one drive in it. The idea is you have

a fairly small C: drive with nothing but software on it and ALL of

your work space, data files or whatever is on the D: drive. You can

simply copy that drive to your backup and restore it with drag and

drop. Then you image your C: to back that up after you have changed

all of your program destination directories.. Even if you did use the

restore disks, you still have not lost any data.



The dumbest thing I have ever seem is people using "My Documents" for

anything. That is buried in windoze and the first thing you lose even

if you just delete the windows directory and just reinstall it.

"My Documents is NOT burried in the windows directory. Never has

been. It is in the "documents and settings" directory in Pre Win7, and

in the "users" directory in 7 and up.



If you use a "restore" disk, you use your documents if they are

anywhere on the "C" partition, or anywhere on the "C" drive if the

original install is a single operating partition.



I think you meant "lose your documents", not "use."
And as I previously pointed out, with HP at least, you'll lose
everything on the hard drive without regard to any partitions
if you do a restore. It puts the PC back to exactly the as-shipped
condition




If you use an "install" disk you can re-install without affecting the

data if you do a "repair install" with XP and previous. In "most"

cases the repair install won't even require re-installation of most

software.


Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they
did. The last two I bought only come with the OS and apps, eg MSFT Office,
installed and a restore image on a hard drive partition. Again, with
HP's that I have, if you use that restore image, it wipes out everything,
including any other partitions and puts the PC back to as-shipped.
They also tell you and remind you to make a set of restore DVDs, in
case the HD fails. That's all that you have, no Win7, MSFT Office
disks period.






If you do a "full install" it will overwrite anything in the boot

partition, but leave everything in an "extended partition" (such as a

"D" drive or data partition on a large single hard drive) untouched.



Probably so on some and I agree that's how I would design the
recovery software, but as noted at least HP doesn't work that way.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 10:17:21 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they

did.

I believe if you order for business (home, small, large office) you will get a Windows OS DVD and a drivers disk from Dell.
For home users you have to go to their site and register for one, free.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:36:34 AM UTC-4, Bob_Villa wrote:
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 10:17:21 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:



Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they



did.



I believe if you order for business (home, small, large office) you will get a Windows OS DVD and a drivers disk from Dell.

For home users you have to go to their site and register for one, free.

I believe you're wrong. What Dell has available if you don't make your
own restore DVD's is apparently the same thing most other PC manufacturers now
give you. That is they will sell (maybe give) you a factory set of restore
disks. That is *not* a Windows install DVD, not a MSFT Office install
DVD, etc. It's essentially a mirror image of the as shipped software
load, similar to what you'd have if you made a system image backup using
any recovery software. It's also what's on most PC's in a special disk
partition for recovery. And if you do what you're supposed to, you wind
up with the same thing for free, by creating your own restore DVDs when
you first set up the PC. None of that is a Windows OS Install DVD.

http://en.community.dell.com/support.../19474194.aspx

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:08:57 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Sunday, April 6, 2014 11:36:34 AM UTC-4, Bob_Villa wrote:

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 10:17:21 AM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:

Do most PC's even come with install disk anymore? Years ago they

did.

I believe if you order for business (home, small, large office) you will get a Windows OS DVD and a drivers disk from Dell.

For home users you have to go to their site and register for one, free.



I believe you're wrong.

https://www.dell.com/support/diagnos...=us&l=en&s=dhs

What you get is a full Dell OEM version OS DVD and another DVD with drivers and installed programs from your original install.
I have sent for another set (W7 64-bit) (new system) a few days ago...so I will see if you still get the same thing as before.

On Sunday, April 6, 2014 2:35:17 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Sun, 6 Apr 2014 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT), Bob_Villa

wrote:



What you get is a full Dell OEM version OS DVD and another DVD with drivers and installed programs from your original install.

I have sent for another set (W7 64-bit) (new system) a few days ago...so I will see if you still get the same thing as before.



That sounds right and I also got a disc full of utilities, the most

useful was the Cyberlink set (Disk burning DVD authoring etc)

Evidently that was the original package with the product code I used.

all for the $10

Ordering and postage are free from that site.

The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 4/3/2014 7:10 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


On 4/1/2014 7:38 PM, Tekkie® wrote:
The Daring Dufas posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


Don't sell yourself short there philo, you are one of the
brightest folks posting here. You gladly share your experience and
knowledge which makes you a great guy to know. ^_^

TDD


watch out Philo he is an ass kisser and wants something out of
you...

Shhhh! I'm trying to get some big batteries from him. O_o

TDD

For your sex toy invention?

Yea, the one the size of a fork lift. o_O

TDD

Thank you for your support. (Bartles & James)

--
Tekkie

On 3/30/2014 6:19 PM, Bob_Villa wrote:

If you're forced into Windows 8 install "Classic Shell", stay away
from HP/Compaq because of all the crapware. I have a free PC that I
installed Windows 7 (Dell 8400 3Ghz,3Gb,320GbHDD, basically ancient)
and it runs very well! And there's always Craigslist!

Ummm, I bought an HP laptop a year ago and it didn't come with ANY
"crapware". OTOH, a friend of mine bought a Dell desktop a few years ago
and it took me an entire day to uninstall all of the "crapware".

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:37:33 PM UTC-5, Ron wrote:

Ummm, I bought an HP laptop a year ago and it didn't come with ANY

"crapware". OTOH, a friend of mine bought a Dell desktop a few years ago

and it took me an entire day to uninstall all of the "crapware".

Anything you buy today has crapware/trialware in it...