I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
http://i43.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg

Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers
are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white,
which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not
at the valve stem):
http://i42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg

Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!
RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire

So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the ti
1. Wheel valve stem
2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)

OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?

Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg

On Sunday, July 14, 2013 10:15:52 PM UTC-5, blue bmw wrote:
I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted - and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up: http://i43..tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17 http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304 On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white, which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not at the valve stem): http://i42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot! RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the ti 1. Wheel valve stem 2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot 3.. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot) 4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point) OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up? Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up? Q2: Should they remove all these weights first? http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.

Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.

Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.

Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.

So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).

They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.

Isn't that what this group is all about?

blue bmw wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.

Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.

Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.

Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.

So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).

They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.

Isn't that what this group is all about?

Hi.
You drive BMW and not going to the dealer? And how come you go to a tire
shop you don't trust? My friend has a year old M5, all service is does
by local dealer always Period. My kid drives late Subaru WRX STI
very souped up one. He only goes to tuner shop for any service. If the
shop screw up their reputation is at stake. Once they did a fuel line
work and when son came home I noticed fuel leak in the garage(one O ring
was not properly seated) When phoned they sent flat bed tow truck,
they did not want the car to be driven for fear of fire.

They redid the work with no charge and profuse apology for inconvenience
caused. After all they are the one who tuned the car top to bottom
including set of summer and winter tires.

If you don't want to take your BMW to a tire shop you can't trust then
you should drive something like CBMWs are very precision machine that is
why they are expensive. Me? I just drive Acura which the dealer does
all the schedule routine maintenance. Never had any problem.

If I want BMW I'd lease one and beat the hell out of it and return it
when lease is up. That's best way to drive a car like that. Keeping it
long and in shape, it is pouring resources to bottomless can..... New
ones are not like old ones either.
Tried Bimmer user forum?

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:54:25 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

My friend has a year old M5, all service is does
by local dealer always Period.

If it's still only a year old, the service is free at the dealer.
Even a cheapskate would go to the dealer under that circumstance.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:54:25 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

You drive BMW and not going to the dealer?
What kind of stereotype is that?
A BMW is just a car.

And, ummmm... you know what they call the dealer?
Hint: It starts with "st".

Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
it makes that moron feel better to pay more. They love to brag
how they go to the (st)...ealer for all their maintenance. It
makes *them* feel important.

And how come you go to a tire shop you don't trust?
I've *never* found a tire shop I could trust.
They *all* torque the lug bolts to the same for all cars.
They *all* use air tools (for speed) and only check torque
after the fact (when the bolts no longer turn, which means
it's too late).
They *all* put the same tire pressure in all four tires.
None of them match mount unless you force them to.
etc.

My friend has a year old M5, all service is does
by local dealer always Period.
Your friend is spending far more money than most people
for far less service. But, the coffee is free, the lounge
air conditioned, and the service manager all smiles!

My kid drives late Subaru WRX STI very souped up one.
Ummmm... why not just answer the question?
If you don't know the answer to the question, that's OK,
but, why not just say so?

I just drive Acura which the dealer does all the schedule
routine maintenance. Never had any problem.
I won't say what I'm thinking!

If I want BMW I'd lease one and beat the hell out of it
A BMW is simply a car. Are you falling for all the marketing
braggadocio? It's a nice handling car. But, it's just a car.
There's nothing special about it (except the marketing is
fantastic. It has people *thinking* it's special). That's a
great feat - but - for those who understand it (I bought mine
new), it's just a car. Like any other car.

Specifically, it has wheels. Like any other car has wheels.

The question remains:
Does *anyone* on this newsgroup actually know how to properly
mount a tire with respect to the dots?

I've read the articles - but it's confusing when there is both
a red dot and a yellow dot. I'm hoping I'm not the only one on
this planet who thinks about this stuff ahead of time.

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 22:54:25 -0600, Tony Hwang wrote:

New ones are not like old ones either.
Tried Bimmer user forum?

The only difference with bimmer wheels and normal car wheels is most
cages have steel and most (all?) BMWs have (BBS) aluminum wheels.

Which means it's even more important to get it right.

Unfortunately, almost nobody here knows how to mount tires so they
blindly trust the tire shops who don't give a chit.

Since nobody is watching the henhouse, they take you for the ride.

I doubt anyone on this ng knows how to mount tires properly, unless
they've been trained as a tire professional. And, if they are, they'll
tell you that 90% of all tires are put on incorrectly. That's a fact.

The proof is as simple as asking a tire shop the same question you
are asking here. You'll get 20 different answers, none of them right.

BTW, you really need a beemer group, not a bimmer group since the beemer
guys mount their own tires.

blue bmw wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700,
wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know
what to do!!!
..

Isn't that what this group is all about?


No, this group is about HOME repair, not car repair or tires

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:15:52 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
wrote:

I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
http://i43.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg


Those dots are unscientific and meaningless.
Get your tires balanced by a shop that does road force balancing.
The operator won't pay any attention to the dots.
If he's good, you'll be good.
If not, take it back.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Get your tires balanced by a shop that does road force balancing.

I don't disagree that road force balancing is best, but, how many
shops have you seen who spin the rim against a separate wheel before
mounting the tire on the rim?

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Those dots are unscientific and meaningless.

Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:15:52 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
wrote:

I'm confused - but I have an appointment tomorrow for tires to be mounted
- and - I'm confused which two of the four dots should line up:
http://i43.tinypic.com/dcfrea.jpg

Both documents below say US wheel manufacturers and tire manufacturers
are *required* to mark the "low spot" and "high spot" respectively.
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

On the back of my stock 16" BMW (BBS) rims, is this nick painted white,
which I presume is the marked "low spot" (which, you may notice, is not
at the valve stem):
http://i42.tinypic.com/24w54cj.jpg

Yet, on the tires, I see both a red dot and a yellow dot!
RED = (apparently the) high point of radial runout on the tire
YELLOW = (apparently the) light point (with respect to balance) on the tire

So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the ti
1. Wheel valve stem
2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)

OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?

Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg

I don't recall the specifics of what to do with each dot but my
thoughts are that the dot(s) on the rim is nearly meaningless if the
car has been driven more then 15,000 miles on normal roads. Esp the
"low spot" dot. It may have been the low spot before the rim was
banged around for 15K + miles but whether it's the low spot anymore
seems like a crapshoot. If the rims have any road rash, ditto for the
"light spot". Of the two, if I was going to attempt to use the spots,
I'd use the low spot dot and match it to the tires high spot dot. But
instead of telling the shop to "match these two different colored
dots" I would get a big yellow grease pencil and just draw a big
yellow line on the inside sidewall of the tire and a big yellow line
on the inside of the rim where those dots are and ask that they line
up those lines when they mount the tire. Most of the shops I've been
to would pull that big rim weight off first thing. Those little stick
on weights they might leave on till they see how it spins in the
balance machine. You have the option of just scraping them off
yourself of asking them to before the start balancing it. That's kind
of a hard call not knowing if those weights were there mostly because
the previous set of tires needed them or if they are there because the
rim needed them. I tend to think that BMW would expect the naked rims
to be pretty well balanced when new so I'd be inclined to scrape them
all off myself before taking them to the shop just so they won't be
tempted to leave em one and balance them out with even more weight.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 06:52:30 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Those dots are unscientific and meaningless.

Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?

There is no such requirement.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 06:26:38 +0000 (UTC), blue bmw
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 01:08:47 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Get your tires balanced by a shop that does road force balancing.

I don't disagree that road force balancing is best, but, how many
shops have you seen who spin the rim against a separate wheel before
mounting the tire on the rim?

With road force balancing the procedure is to turn the tire on the rim
it's mounted on, to where the least weight has to be used to strike
the balance. Whether the guy knows how to do it properly, or wants to
do it properly instead of just using more weights is unknown.
You just can't control everything, so get used to it.
The dots are manufacturing QC only, to minimize bad batches, and
nobody properly balancing tires pays any attention to the tire dots,
because the rims may have a different balance point. And that could
be at a point other than the valve stem.
It's a crap shoot. So just pick a good balancing shop. If you feel
bad vibes, take it back and have them redo it.
Usually it's good the first time, but I've had to take my vehicles
back a couple times. They rebalanced the problem wheels at no extra
cost.

blue bmw wrote in :

Isn't that what this group is all about?


No, it's about home repairs. Try alt.anal.bmwOwners instead. They will
have a good answer for you.

blue bmw wrote in :

Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
it makes that moron feel better to pay more.

Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to pay more for an
overpriced POS. BMWs isn.t what they used to be. If you wanted something
decent you should have gotten at least an MB C250.

On 07/14/2013 11:33 PM, blue bmw wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.

Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.

Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.

Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.

So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).

They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.

Isn't that what this group is all about?


I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.

Where are you located? I can recommend a couple shops local to me that
don't suck.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On 07/15/2013 05:50 AM, JoeBro wrote:
blue bmw wrote in :

Only a moron goes to the dealer, and even then, only because
it makes that moron feel better to pay more.

Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to pay more for an
overpriced POS. BMWs isn.t what they used to be. If you wanted something
decent you should have gotten at least an MB C250.


Eh? Two completely different cars. BMW (at least up until a couple
years ago) was for people who liked to drive, a MB was for people who
just want a more "upscale" car. (in quotes because they're upscale in
the US, but not necessarily everywhere else in the world.)

Unfortunately from what I hear the new 3 series is not as engaging to
drive as the old one, but I haven't driven one myself yet...

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

blue bmw wrote in
news


So, that makes FOUR separate spots, two on the wheel and two on the
ti 1. Wheel valve stem
2. Wheel white nick (presumably that's the low spot
3. Tire red dot (presumably that's the high spot)
4. Tire yellow dot (presumably that's the light point)

OK. Now what should I tell the installer to line up?

Q1: What two spots (of those four) should line up?
Q2: Should they remove all these weights first?
http://i39.tinypic.com/2q0o9xl.jpg



Those dots are a /starting point only/. The theory is that by, for
instance, matching the low spot on the rim with the high spot on the tire
it will be easier to mount the tire so as to spin smoothly. This is
necessary before starting the balancing procedure.

In practice, an aftermarket tire installer will often not have the rim's
dots available, and will mount the tire as his personal preference
dictates. He will spin the bare wheel, making sure it's actually in-spec
for that automaker. He will find the low spot(s) on the rim by eye. He may
try matching the high spot on the tire with the low spot he found on the
rim. He may try the light spot on the tire opposite the valve stem.

Either way, the idea is to get the tire to spin smoothly before balancing.
"Smoothly" means that, as the tire is spun, the tread does not hop up and
down or squirm from side to side. As a proxy for that, many tire installers
will observe the rubber ridges on the tire that sit immediately outboard of
the rims. If this ridge is perfectly even all the way around relative to
the rim, he will consider the tire to be mounted properly. To me, having
that ridge sit evenly should be backed up by actually studying the tread as
the tire spins. This means lifting the machine's guard and spinning the
tire slowly while watching the tread. If the tread hops or squirms, then
there will be vibration or harshness on the road even if the balance
appears to be perfect.

If the tire won't spin smoothly no matter what, then the installer will
turn the tire 180 degrees and try again. And then move it again.

THIS IS ASSUMING THE TIRE INSTALLER KNOWS TO DO THIS! A lot of cheapo shops
will simply throw the tire on the rim, balance, and be done with it. Little
or no checking or matching of any kind.

Proper mounting requires proper tire lubricant. Some aftermarket shops will
use inferior substitutes, such as soap-and-water. These will impart an
unacceptable level of friction between tire and rim, and prevent the tire
from popping in place all the way. This will result in a tread that hops
and squirms.

Sometimes drive-tires will rotate on the rim before all the tire lubricant
has a chance to squeeze out. To detect this, a chalk or grease-pencil mark
should be placed on the tire and rim. If the client comes back complaining
of vibration, the installer can check those marks and see if they have come
out of alignment. If they have, then the client has ignored the admonition
to accelerate and brake gently for a few days.

Many tires returned to tire makers as "defective" are actually fine; they
were damaged by poor mounting techique. Tire makers can tell this by the
marks the rim leaves on the bead.

A Hunter road-force machine cannot compensate for poor mounting, all it can
do is alert the installer that somesthing's wrong. The Hunter machine first
requires proper mounting in order to work as intended.

Costco goes through a large vvolume of tires. Their employees receive
training directly from the tire makers in the proper mounting procedure.
You are more likely to receive correctly-mounted and -balanced tires from
Costco than from them than from most tire shops.

And yes, all dirt and old weights should be cleaned off the wheel before
new tires are added.

--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 08:22 AM, Nate Nagel wrote:
On 07/14/2013 11:33 PM, blue bmw wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.

Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.

Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.

Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.

So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly
installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds
of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back
seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air
pressure).

They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.

Isn't that what this group is all about?


I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.

Where are you located? I can recommend a couple shops local to me that
don't suck.

nate


Forgot to add, you're completely neglecting that your tire shop also
should have soft pads for their rim clamps, or use a tire machine that
doesn't clamp the rim at all (because I ASSume that if you have a BMW
that it has alloy wheels)

Nothing makes me stabbier than seeing those dimples in the rim from the
rim clamps because the tire guy was too lazy to use the soft pads... but
most used sets of alloys that I've bought have them... with corrosion
spreading around the marks usually meaning they need to be refinished to
look 100%

Again I have a short list of shops local to me that I will trust to
mount/balance tires


nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:37:06 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

I don't recall the specifics of what to do with each dot but my
thoughts are that the dot(s) on the rim is nearly meaningless if the
car has been driven more then 15,000 miles on normal roads.

Hi Ashton,

I appreciate your help and advice, and, well, I do understand what you're
saying (in that wheels change over time) ...

However, sheer logic says that, if the wheel match-mounting mark were really
therefore meaningless for replacement tires, then, (most) replacement tires would
not have any need for the *legal requirement* that the high spot & heavy
spot be marked (since the vast majority of replacement tires do *not* go on
brand new unused wheels).

So, that belies logic (although the government isn't known to be logical).

if I was going to attempt to use the spots, I'd use the low spot dot and
match it to the tires high spot dot.

Actually, for all but aluminum rims, the algorithm is explained in the
following articles I read before posting to this newsgroup:

1. Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

2. Bridgestone pamphlet on match mounting:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...0ask%20doc.pdf

3. Bridgestone magazine article on match mounting:
http://www.bridgestonetrucktires.com...ue2/Doctor.asp

4. Yokohama article explaining the "Uniformity" and "Weight" methods of match mounting:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/tires_10...atch_mounting/

5. Yokohama TSB on match mounting:
http://www.yokohamatire.com/assets/d...ting_12803.pdf

6. Rubber Manufacturers Association tire booklet (See Chapter 2, page 33 "Match Mounting"):
http://www.rma.org/tire_care_info/ti...0311_final.pdf

7. Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

My problem is in what the significance of the dimple is in the stock BMW
BBS aluminum rims, since all these articles imply there is no match-mounting
point in the aluminum wheels (yet, contradictory words are in the articles
which state that the marks are mandatory by wheel manufacturers).

I'll call BBS to see what I can find out about that notch in my BBS wheels.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 00:37:06 -0700, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Most of the shops I've been to would pull that big rim weight off
first thing. Those little stick on weights they might leave on till
they see how it spins in the balance machine.

I was thinking the same thing!

The stick of inside weights looks kind of permanent while the rim weight
is clearly huge and most would rip it off.

So I was mostly asking what they do with that stick of weights!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 09:50:43 +0000, JoeBro wrote:

Only a moron buys a bmw because it make him feel better to
pay more for an overpriced POS.

I've had this bimmer for more than a decade, and, in very many
ways, Joe Bro is right. It's a POS when it comes to the plastic
cooling expansion tank and radiator neck blowing up; the DISA
valve being sucked into the intake manifold destroying your
exhaust valves; the stock VANOS seals being made out of nitrile
rubber instead of Viton; the $1000 Hella fiber-optic headlights
whose PBT plastic headlight adjusters crumble on every bimmer
over time due to forseeable heat inside the headlight; the cheapness
of BMW positioning the Bosch 5.7 ABS control module right next to
the exhaust manifold (to save on wires and tubes) so that it fries
on almost every 5-series, 3-series, and 7-series bimmer over time;
the cheap recycled rubber gasket around the windshields crumbling
to dust in just a few years; the stingy application of adhesive
on the door vapor barriers so that water invariably leaks into
every single bimmer's back seat over time; the idiotic seat motor
wires which cause seat twist eventually in all bimmers; the cheap
yet fancy window regulators whose clamps fall off their cables
in almost every bimmer over time; (and I could go on).

Yet, while the bimmer *is* a POS with respect to quality, it does
handle rather well.

So, like everything else, a bimmer is a trade off between superb
handling and safety, and POS component quality.

But, let's get back to the point please.

From the match-mounting articles, after reading the dozen references
on match mounting, I *think* this is the algorithm:
1. If you have steel wheels with match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the match mounting mark to the red dot.
2. If you have steel wheels without match mounting marks, and red dots
on the tires, mount the valve stem to the red dot.
3. If you have steel wheels without match mounting dots, and no red dots
on the tires, then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.
4. However, if you have aluminum wheels, and red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the red dot.
5. Likewise, if you have aluminum wheels, and no red dots on the tires,
then mount the valve stem to the yellow dot.

All this works fine *if* there are no match mounting marks on the aluminum
wheels. But *mine* have (what appears to be) match mounting marks.

Unfortunately, NONE of the articles mentions what to do in the case of
aluminum rims with an existing match mounting mark.

I have a call in to BBS which hasn't been returned yet:
877.832.8209

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 08:22:10 -0400, Nate Nagel wrote:

I'm not trying to be rude when I say this so please don't take it that
way... but... sounds like you need a better shop.

This is true.

However, I've called Tire Rack, BBS, and even the rubber manufacturers
association, and, these "tire professionals" don't even know the answer
(at least not yet, offhand).

I sent them all the pictures, by email. So, we may get some progress,
but not in time for my appointment today with the Tire Rack "recommended
installers" who, supposedly, have met a professional standard for installation.

Unfortunately, it's my humble opinion that no tire installer installs tires
properly.

I'm not saying tires are falling off cars left and right, but, for the
aficionado, if you don't watch them and tell them what to do, they won't:

a) Mount the tire on the wheel properly
b) Torque the lug bolts properly
c) Pressurize the tires properly
etc.

And these are very basic mistakes that a mere consumer should *not* have
to worry about.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 03:20:56 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

The dots are manufacturing QC only, to minimize bad batches, and
nobody properly balancing tires pays any attention to the tire dots,
because the rims may have a different balance point. And that could
be at a point other than the valve stem.

I agree that nobody pays attention to the dots and match-mounting
marks - but I do not agree that this is the *proper* way to install
a tire (by ignoring those marks).

The dots are there to allow proper tire installation on the rim.

Both the rim and dots are required by law (according to the references
I previously quoted).

All I'm asking is what the proper way is to align those marks.

I do have a call to BBS, and they called me back - so I'm working
with them as we speak to determine what that match mounting mark
means on my BBS rims.

The guys I spoke to didn't know if BMW does anything different at
the factory, as they only handled the USA BBS wheels - so - they
forwarded my questions over to Germany.

Still - the answer won't arrive in time for *my* tires to be mounted
properly - and that's sad that you can't trust any tire professional
to mount a passenger tire properly.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
There is no such requirement.

Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tires radial runout
high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheels
radial runout low point."

Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
"low point."

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:34:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:

Those dots are a /starting point only/.

Hi Tegger,
That's the whole point!

The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly
(unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).

The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more
weight is eventually added than was needed, and that's bad from
various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights
subsequently falls off.

A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then
B) The environment doesn't need millions of pounds of lead that
never was needed in the first place.

So, thanks for stating that the whole point is to figure out the
correct *starting point*!

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:48:50 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

"We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force
variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the
vehicle.

If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement
tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama
and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with
respect to those dots for replacement tires?

Do you see why this is confusing?
That's why I'm trying to find the answer.

On Monday, July 15, 2013 10:51:29 AM UTC-4, blue bmw wrote:


Still - the answer won't arrive in time for *my* tires to be mounted

properly - and that's sad that you can't trust any tire professional

to mount a passenger tire properly.

Since this issue appears to be of the utmost importance to you, have you considered cancelling the appointment until you have the answer and/or found a tire shop that you trust implicitly?

I realize that there may be valid scheduling issues that you have to deal with, e.g. leaving for a 1000 road trip at 8 AM tomorrow therefore you need new tires mounted today. Absent something like that, why rush into a mounting appointment that is going to eat away at you until the next you have to have tires mounted?

Angel A. wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
There is no such requirement.

Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tire’s radial runout
high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheel’s
radial runout low point."

Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
"low point."



Notice the OE and OEM? This is required ONLY on tires and wheels sold
to auto manufacturers to be installed as the vehicles are made.

Look at tires that are not sold as an OEM tire and you usually won't
find marks. Especially on house brands and LT tires.

--
Steve W.

blue bmw wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 05:48:50 -0400, Steve W. wrote:

"We have found that the only way to accurately match mount replacement
tires on used original or new aftermarket wheels is to use Hunter tire
balancers which have the ability to measure wheel runout and tire force
variations under load before the tire and wheel are installed on the
vehicle.

If this is true (and it very well may be), then why do my replacement
tires come with both the red and yellow dots, and why do the Yokohama
and Bridgestone articles and TSBs I provided say to mount the rim with
respect to those dots for replacement tires?

Do you see why this is confusing?
That's why I'm trying to find the answer.


The reason is that any company that sells to an auto manufacturer has to
mark the tires sold to them as OEM fitment.
Say Bridgestone makes 100,000 pieces of a certain tire. The auto maker
says "Hey we want 64,000 of those delivered by Friday" By marking ALL
the tires they can just grab that amount and ship them. The rest go to
wholesale/retail outlets. Those have the marks simply because of
economics. It is like any other commodity item, if you sell to a
customer that requires a certain coating or material it is easier to
make the entire run the same way and sell the "leftovers" elsewhere.

Also be aware that unless the tire you are fitting is the EXACT same
tire (make, model, molding, rubber compound, size), the new tire is
going to perform differently. You can take 5 different tires of the same
size from 5 different brands or even model tire from the same brand and
they will measure differently.

Did you know that in reality there is no such thing as a 15/16/17 INCH
tire? That in reality they are all produced using metric measurements
but still use the inch designation for easier identification?


--
Steve W.

Blue,

Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers
have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And
"The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually
measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the
tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither
article supports their use.
If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can
do it.

Dave M.

blue bmw wrote in :

On Sun, 14 Jul 2013 20:22:24 -0700, wrote:

If this will be done by a tire shop, they should know what to do!!!

The problem is they don't care - and - if I don't tell them what to do,
they won't do it.

Proof is that they torque all cars to 100 foot pounds (just ask them);
and they put in the same air pressure in all four tires (BMW doesn't
spec it that way); and the alignment shops don't add 500 pounds of weight
(BMW does spec it that way); and they rotate the tires (BMW doesn't
spec out a rotation), etc.

Point is, the guy installing tires, in my humble experience, may or
may not know how.

Sure, you'd *think* they'd know - but - I've asked them in the past
and had to show them articles on how to mount them - but I've never
seen both the red dot and the yellow dot on the same tire nor the
valve stem not being the corresponding spot on the wheels.

So, in summary - the tire installers do *not* care about properly installing
tires (just like the alignment guys don't add the required 500 pounds of weight,
150 in the driver seat, 150 in the passenger seat, 150 in the back seat, and
50 in the rear (plus a full tank of gas, new'ish tires, and proper air pressure).

They don't care. So, we must be armed beforehand with the knowledge.

Isn't that what this group is all about?

Q: What's the difference between a porcupine and a BMW?
A: The porcupine has the pricks on the *outside*.

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 14:58:35 +0000 (UTC), "Angel A."
wrote:

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 02:54:15 -0500, Vic Smith wrote:

Then why are they *required* by law on all US automotive tires and wheels?
There is no such requirement.

Motor magazine article on match mounting for aluminum wheels:
http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1304

"OE tire suppliers are *required* to mark a tires radial runout
high point, and OE wheel makers are *required* to mark a wheels
radial runout low point."

Tire Rack article on match mounting:
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tirete....jsp?techid=17

"Original Equipment (OE) tire suppliers are *required* to mark the
tire's "high point" while OE wheel manufacturers mark the wheel's
"low point."

Okay, I can see where the auto manufacturers "require" their tire and
rim manufacturers to provide some balance points. But that's not a
"law." That's what I meant to say.
But new factory rims and tires and aftermarket tires on old rims are
different animals.
Wasting a minute of "serious" thought on those dots is a waste of
time. To me anyway. I don't mount my own tires or balance them.
You're going to get the balancing the shop gives you.
If you're concerned about weight or dot cosmetics you can make that
known to the shop. Maybe it will make a difference in cosmetics, but
in the end what matters is that the wheel is balanced.
You can find out if the shop pays attention to the dots.
But the guy you talk to might not be doing the balancing.
I never stand over a worker's shoulder telling him how to do his job.
If he doesn't balance a tire correctly, I bring it back.
In nearly every case I don't have to. A few years ago I had new
tires put on my car and thought they were balanced right.
A couple months later I was in Tennessee where the limit is 75, and it
was shaking at 77. Took it back and they rebalanced and it was fine
at any speed there after. Yeah, it was irritating, but that's life.
Nobody's perfect.
I recently bought a 2003 Impala with good rubber, and it was shaking
at speed when I got it. Got the wheels balanced at the same shop, and
made sure I did a high speed run right after, because I was going on a
road trip. Vibrations were gone, and it's been fine since.
I never looked at the weights or dots. If somebody wants to talk
about them, fine with me.
Just trying to save the BMW guy some time.
Here's a Hunter 9700 demo. Kinda boring unless you dig it.
http://www.hunter.com/videos/index.cfm?cat=3

On 7/15/2013 9:20 AM, blue bmw wrote:

....[big snip]...


Actually, for all but aluminum rims, the algorithm is explained in the
following articles I read before posting to this newsgroup:

....[snip]...

And, the biggest thing (unless you're racing or have some other very
unusual issue) is the final thing Bridgestone says in their pamphlet --

And the final result?
Matching the dots is no substitute for balancing tire and
wheel assemblies. What it does, however, is give you the
best start, so you are more likely to use less total weight to
bring an assembly into balance.

All in all, it'll never be anything you'll ever be able to tell whether
was or wasn't used in all likelihood.

IOW, "tempest in teapot", basically, for average passenger car and tire
and driving.

--

blue bmw wrote in :

On Mon, 15 Jul 2013 12:34:53 +0000, Tegger wrote:

Those dots are a /starting point only/.

Hi Tegger,
That's the whole point!

The tire installer doesn't even START installing tires correctly
(unless we tell them how to mount our tires properly!).



Tire installers can't rely solely on the paint marks. Sometimes you're
mounting used tires, or swapping snows and summer tires for a customer who
has only one set of wheels. Dots can disappear after a couple of winters.

In those cases you need to know the basics of mounting and of how to get
the tire to spin true on the rim. In such cases, you need to guess at
first, then correct as needed until the tire spins true.



The result, from their invariably bad starting point, is that more
weight is eventually added than was needed,



More weight does not correct for poor mounting. If vibration doesn't happen
immediately, it will occur once the the tread wears unevenly from the poor
mounting, no matter how much weight you stuck on there.



and that's bad from
various points of view, especially when/if one of those weights
subsequently falls off.

A) The wheel is *really* out of balance by then




Not out-of-balance, but out-of round. Getting it round /before/ you balance
is the point. You can stuff the rim full of weights, but you're only
(maybe) masking, not curing. See my paragraph above.

If in doubt go to Costco. At least their installers have some official
training from the tire companies.


--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 01:01 PM, David L. Martel wrote:
Blue,

Geez, did you read the articles that you cited? " In the end, the markers
have little, if any, relevance when replacement tires are installed." And
"The only way to accurately match-mount a tire to a wheel is to actually
measure tire and wheel runout. The end goal remains the same: to align the
tire's high point to the wheel's low point." Forget the dots. Neither
article supports their use.
If match mounting is important to you you'll need to find a shop that can
do it.

Dave M.



Theoretically the dots have meaning, but I do agree with two other
important points mentioned in this thread.

1) On a used wheel the high spot and low spot probably aren't where they
were when the wheel was made, unless you live on a billiards table. So
while the dots on the tire may mean something, the marks on the wheel
are questionable, and it is not necessarily warranted to criticize a
tire guy for giving you your car back with the dots in a different place
than the procedure says they should be. Doubly so if the wheels have
ever been reconditioned.

2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to patronize
a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy using it knows
how to use it properly.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote in
:



2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to
patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy
using it knows how to use it properly.



The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that
knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.

Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.


--
Tegger

On 07/15/2013 02:34 PM, Tegger wrote:
Nate Nagel wrote in
:



2) The best way to achieve a smooth vibration free ride is to
patronize a shop that has road force balance equipment and the guy
using it knows how to use it properly.



The best way to achieve a vibration-free ride is to patronize a shop that
knows how to mount a tire that spins true BEFORE anythng else is done.

Road-force equipment is nice to have, but is far from essential.



I'd agree with that too. And the tire guy should be checking that the
rim spins true without hops or lateral runout before even thinking about
mounting the tire, especially if the customer complains about a
vibration with the old tires. Unfortunately, as I have found, you can't
trust that that will happen, you have to either know a good guy or get a
recommendation for one.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Nate Nagel wrote in
:

you have to either know a good guy
or get a recommendation for one.



Costco. Oddly enough.


--
Tegger