Just as I now always look at my friends' garage doors to see
what they need help fixing, now I'm constantly looking for
brown stains in my friends' toilets.

Here's one I found at one friend's house:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800209.jpg

And, here's another, at a different house:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800236.jpg

There were many new lessons learned though, mostly from
being way too casual around the acid and therefore making
a few mistakes by not being cautious enough.

For example, my hands are killing me, because I cupped the
acid back and forth to cover the stains in an attempt to
speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

Another lesson learned is to remove the baggie over the filler
tube when you start refilling the toilet! I left the baggie on
to get the phone, and when I came back, acid was all over the
stone floor (making it slippery to the touch!).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800282.jpg

Another lesson learned is that you can peel back the plastic
wrap over the bowl to scrub the stains to move the process
along quicker - but - you'll get one hell of a few good
coughing fits out of being that close to the open bowl of
acid. My chest is still hurting - like when you have bronchitis:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800322.jpg

Yet another lesson learned is that some people are really
picky when it comes to chemicals. This shot is at a friend's
house, where I didn't bother with the funnel and just poured
the acid directly down the tube. Of course, a lot went into the
bowl - which smoked and fumed. Hours later, my friend swore she
could still smell the acid (although I don't believe her):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800357.jpg

Another lesson learned was that the plastic wrap actually
works BETTER than does the rubber banded sandwich bag, especially
when you remove it to pour more acid. The plastic wrap throws
away more easily without keeping acid in all the folds:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800391.jpg

Another good lesson was to not get cavalier about the acid.
Here you see me pouring it directly on the scrub brush in
the bowl. Problem was that droplets of acid started burning
my bare skin within minutes - even though they didn't hurt
at first.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800463.jpg

In summary, the biggest thing I learned is that the damage
from the acid doesn't hurt too badly at first - but it lingers on.

Also, I learned you can clean the bowl directly, but, you'll
get a few whiffs in your lung - which you'll know when you
get 'em as you'll start coughing away immediately.

The splashes on the bare skin only tingle and burn at first,
but later little blisters will develop on your fingers. No
big deal - but it would have been better had I taken the
stuff more seriously.

Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here
in pictures. If you have questions, ask away.

clipped

Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here
in pictures. If you have questions, ask away.

Did you read the label before use? Hell, anyone who wants to use m.a.
indoors should try it out on some concrete, outdoors, first.

On 4/28/2013 6:36 AM, Norminn wrote:
clipped

Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here
in pictures. If you have questions, ask away.

Did you read the label before use? Hell, anyone who wants to use m.a.
indoors should try it out on some concrete, outdoors, first.

I see HCl azeotrope is 20%. This means that with more concentrated acid
there would be much more propensity to fume giving off pure HCl fumes
which are highly irritating to skin and respiratory tract.
The HCl sold to clean toilets is about 15% and does not have this
problem. If someone wants to save money by buying muriatic acid, they
should cut it 50/50 with water before storage and use.

I once made the mistake of storing a closed bottle of muriatic acid in a
metal cabinet. Even while closed, enough fumes got out of the plastic
bottle to cause severe rusting of the cabinet.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:50:43 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here
in pictures.

You deviated from the original instructions:

_"familiarity breeds contempt"_

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:50:43 AM UTC-6, Danny D. wrote:
Just as I now always look at my friends' garage doors to see

what they need help fixing, now I'm constantly looking for

brown stains in my friends' toilets.



Here's one I found at one friend's house:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800209.jpg



And, here's another, at a different house:

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800236.jpg



There were many new lessons learned though, mostly from

being way too casual around the acid and therefore making

a few mistakes by not being cautious enough.



For example, my hands are killing me, because I cupped the

acid back and forth to cover the stains in an attempt to

speed up the process:

http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg



Another lesson learned is to remove the baggie over the filler

tube when you start refilling the toilet! I left the baggie on

to get the phone, and when I came back, acid was all over the

stone floor (making it slippery to the touch!).

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800282.jpg



Another lesson learned is that you can peel back the plastic

wrap over the bowl to scrub the stains to move the process

along quicker - but - you'll get one hell of a few good

coughing fits out of being that close to the open bowl of

acid. My chest is still hurting - like when you have bronchitis:

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800322.jpg



Yet another lesson learned is that some people are really

picky when it comes to chemicals. This shot is at a friend's

house, where I didn't bother with the funnel and just poured

the acid directly down the tube. Of course, a lot went into the

bowl - which smoked and fumed. Hours later, my friend swore she

could still smell the acid (although I don't believe her):

http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800357.jpg



Another lesson learned was that the plastic wrap actually

works BETTER than does the rubber banded sandwich bag, especially

when you remove it to pour more acid. The plastic wrap throws

away more easily without keeping acid in all the folds:

http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800391.jpg



Another good lesson was to not get cavalier about the acid.

Here you see me pouring it directly on the scrub brush in

the bowl. Problem was that droplets of acid started burning

my bare skin within minutes - even though they didn't hurt

at first.

http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800463.jpg



In summary, the biggest thing I learned is that the damage

from the acid doesn't hurt too badly at first - but it lingers on.



Also, I learned you can clean the bowl directly, but, you'll

get a few whiffs in your lung - which you'll know when you

get 'em as you'll start coughing away immediately.



The splashes on the bare skin only tingle and burn at first,

but later little blisters will develop on your fingers. No

big deal - but it would have been better had I taken the

stuff more seriously.



Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here

in pictures. If you have questions, ask away.

After reading your posts, I have come to a conclusion...YOU ARE AN IDIOT.
Anyone who has had ANY education would not put their hands in strong acid.
Anyone who would inhale the fumes of a strong acid IS AN IDIOT.
Anyone who would allow you to clean their toilet and screw up their
toilet, bathroom and decor IS AN IDIOT.

A milder acid such as OXALIC ACID or FORMIC ACID would clean up those
iron and calcium stains just as well without the extreme danger. Caution
would still need to be exercised but the aforementioned acids are easier
to work with.

====

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 06:36:58 -0400 Norminn wrote:

Did you read the label before use?

I've used this 28% (note that it's double the normal strength)
muriatic acid for a while, so, yes, I'm familiar with the
bubbling and whitening that occurs when it spills on concrete.

I also washed my entire pool with the stuff, so, I'm very
familiar with getting the fumes in my lungs, eyes, and
splashing my skin.

Sometimes we all fall into the trap of getting too comfortable
with dangerous chemicals - and I am no exception.

On 04/28/2013 01:50 AM, Danny D. wrote:

For example, my hands are killing me, because I cupped the
acid back and forth to cover the stains in an attempt to
speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

You had to "learn" not to put your skin into HCl?

I think I understand why there are so many warning labels now....

Jon

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:47:47 -0400 Frank wrote:

I see HCl azeotrope is 20%. This means that with more concentrated acid
there would be much more propensity to fume giving off pure HCl fumes

I had to look up "azeotrope":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

I'm not sure I understood, but I think your point was that the fumes
of HCl are basically at the same strength as the acid itself.

I can tell you for a fact that I got a few good gulps of the stuff,
and you can feel it in your chest - as your body instinctively closes
up and doesn't let you even get a full breath - so you make little
short ones as you need air.

If someone wants to save money by buying muriatic acid, they
should cut it 50/50 with water before storage and use.

The stuff we buy in the pool stores is usually either 28% or 14%
by volume.

I wonder what percentage would be a good percentage to dilute
down to for use for toilets?

Googling, I see this special "thickened" HCl prep at 9%
http://www.betco.com/ChemicalProduct...dDispGrp=14 8

But this prep seems pretty high in percentage at 23%:
(presumably by volume):
http://www.betco.com/ChemicalProduct...dDispGrp=15 0

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:05:16 -0700 Oren wrote:

You deviated from the original instructions:

Indeed. That was my point. Don't do as I did, or you will also have
a heavy chest and itchy fingers.

BTW, I found this article which backs up your theory
of where the BROWN color comes from:

http://www.silive.com/homegarden/hom..._for_remo.html

On 4/28/2013 4:25 PM, Jon Danniken wrote:
On 04/28/2013 01:50 AM, Danny D. wrote:

For example, my hands are killing me, because I cupped the
acid back and forth to cover the stains in an attempt to
speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

You had to "learn" not to put your skin into HCl?

I think I understand why there are so many warning labels now....

Jon


You can burn the skin of your hands rather miserably and get over it
quickly....do the same thing to your bronchi/lungs and you may not get
over it. I would not use the s--- indoors, for anything, and I have
stains in my toilet bowl ) My potty is old gold color, blue stain
around the water line of the bowl. I have used green 3M scrubbers
(fairly gently) to get deposits out of t.b. that regular bowl cleaner or
CLR did not remove.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:01:47 -0700 Roy wrote:

After reading your posts, I have come to a conclusion...
YOU ARE AN IDIOT.



Anyone who has had ANY education would not put their hands
in strong acid.

It's not too bad at first - but then it starts itching more
much later.

Anyone who would inhale the fumes of a strong acid IS AN IDIOT.

It hurts more in the beginning - then it just becomes a dull ache,
sort of what it's like when you get over the flu.

Anyone who would allow you to clean their toilet and screw up their
toilet, bathroom and decor IS AN IDIOT.

Applying baking soda pretty much prevented the stone from being
visibly damaged.

A milder acid such as OXALIC ACID or FORMIC ACID would clean up those
iron and calcium stains just as well without the extreme danger.

Now you tell us!
Where were you in the scores of prior conversations?

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:50:43 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

I cupped the acid back and forth to cover the stains
in an attempt to speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

I should note that my wrists and hand swelled up like
a balloon, so, again, the lesson is never touch the acid
without gloves - and even then - avoid touching it if you
can.

No need to be afraid; just don't be cavalier.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:55:24 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:50:43 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

I cupped the acid back and forth to cover the stains
in an attempt to speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

I should note that my wrists and hand swelled up like
a balloon, so, again, the lesson is never touch the acid
without gloves - and even then - avoid touching it if you
can.

No need to be afraid; just don't be cavalier.

It really sounds like you need to be far more afraid than you have
been. Wow! You're a walking Darwin award.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:43:51 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 07:05:16 -0700 Oren wrote:

You deviated from the original instructions:

Indeed. That was my point. Don't do as I did, or you will also have
a heavy chest and itchy fingers.

BTW, I found this article which backs up your theory
of where the BROWN color comes from:

http://www.silive.com/homegarden/hom..._for_remo.html

See.

When I say the huckle berries are ripe -- grab your basket and run.

On Sunday, April 28, 2013 2:51:54 PM UTC-6, Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 12:01:47 -0700 Roy wrote:



After reading your posts, I have come to a conclusion...

YOU ARE AN IDIOT.







Anyone who has had ANY education would not put their hands

in strong acid.



It's not too bad at first - but then it starts itching more

much later.



Anyone who would inhale the fumes of a strong acid IS AN IDIOT.



It hurts more in the beginning - then it just becomes a dull ache,

sort of what it's like when you get over the flu.



Anyone who would allow you to clean their toilet and screw up their

toilet, bathroom and decor IS AN IDIOT.



Applying baking soda pretty much prevented the stone from being

visibly damaged.



A milder acid such as OXALIC ACID or FORMIC ACID would clean up those

iron and calcium stains just as well without the extreme danger.



Now you tell us!

Where were you in the scores of prior conversations?



A commercial product called IRON-OUT will work fine as well. The company puts out a number of other products as well. All of our grocery stores up here carry
this product and most hardware stores as well. Just Google for it.
I did mention that earlier in the month.

I have nothing against you personally, but I hate to see people taking
avoidable risks with their health. Lung damage is not a minor thing.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:05:06 -0700 Oren wrote:

When I say the huckle berries are ripe -- grab your basket and run.

What I like about lining up your ducks & following the rules, is the task works.
What I love about breaking the rules, is you learn HOW that task really works!

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:15:10 -0700 Roy wrote:

IRON-OUT will work fine as well.

Hmm... Oren is wholly right that the brown stuff isn't usually rust
(and certainly was not in my case). It's what he delicately calls
"kooties" ensconced within layers of limey deposits, such that
you can turn them white with bleach, but you need acid to remove
the layers under and above - which removes the kooties in the process.

Just Google for it.
BRAND:
http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/o.../rust_removal/

MSDS:
http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/msds/
http://www.summitbrands.com/summit/d...Iron%20Out.pdf

Hmm... I wonder if the ORDER of the chemicals in the MSDS tells us something?
~5% Sodium carbonate (3-7%)
~25% Sodium hydrosulfite (15-40%)
~25% Sodium metabisulfite (15-40%)
~2.5% Citric acid (1-5%)
~1% Sodium sulfite (0.5-1.5%)
~0.5% Sodium bisulfite (0.-1%)

I did mention that earlier in the month.

Given what Oren and I believe to be the root cause of the brown stuff,
I don't think sodium salts are going to fix the problem at all.

Certainly we know, from our past direct experiments, that Phosphoric
acid won't do the trick - and that dissolves rust directly.

I have nothing against you personally, but I hate to see people taking
avoidable risks with their health. Lung damage is not a minor thing.

I have nothing against anyone. I'm here for the learning.
I thought your post was funny - and - I fully understood where you
were coming from. Had I "ignorantly" done all that I did, I'd be
an MC for the Darwin award ceremony; but I actually knew the rules
that I was breaking - and I was prepared to see what happened.

Just like I broke the rule to "never touch a torsion spring" and the
age-old rule "never run with scissors" (and a few thousand more that
little boys are subject to day in and day out by their moms), I knew
what I was doing in so much as I knew other people would be afraid
to do what I did.

But I also made pipe bombs as a kid; rode a bicycle without a helmet;
went hiking without telling my parents where I was going (they didn't
care and I didn't know); climbed any fence that said "keep out";
jumped off the swing at the highest point; dove into the water from
local bridges & swam even though the reservoir said "no swimming";
etc.

Plus, if I can handle Bob K., I certainly can handle anything anyone
else can dish out and still keep my cheerful rosy attitude.

I like people; I like learning from people; I like learning things
myself after learning from people; and then I like to pass it on
to pay it forward. Good or bad, I pass it on, so others benefit,
as always. I especially like folks like Oren, krw, & trader4;
but many other wonderful people flesh out the team such
as dadiOH, Nate, SMS, Frank, notbob, Dufas, Stormin, Vic,
Ashton, Derby, dpb, Smitty, Tony, Meanie, Douglas, etc.

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:14 -0400 krw wrote:

It really sounds like you need to be far more afraid than you have
been. Wow! You're a walking Darwin award

I do agree. Next time I'll wear gloves.

Of course, this is what my regular work gloves looks like after
only a short period of time using them outside ...

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12807700.jpg

.... so if you know of better wearing (longer-lasting) thick
leather gloves than welding gloves, let me know.

I guess its okay to use it as long as you follow instructions. I usually just pour a little in the toilet bowl and cover it for 30 minutes. When I come back, the brown stains are gone and all I do is pour lysol, brush a little and t.b. is as good as new.

Danny D. wrote:
Just as I now always look at my friends' garage doors to see
what they need help fixing, now I'm constantly looking for
brown stains in my friends' toilets.

Here's one I found at one friend's house:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800209.jpg

And, here's another, at a different house:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800236.jpg

There were many new lessons learned though, mostly from
being way too casual around the acid and therefore making
a few mistakes by not being cautious enough.

For example, my hands are killing me, because I cupped the
acid back and forth to cover the stains in an attempt to
speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

Another lesson learned is to remove the baggie over the filler
tube when you start refilling the toilet! I left the baggie on
to get the phone, and when I came back, acid was all over the
stone floor (making it slippery to the touch!).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800282.jpg

Another lesson learned is that you can peel back the plastic
wrap over the bowl to scrub the stains to move the process
along quicker - but - you'll get one hell of a few good
coughing fits out of being that close to the open bowl of
acid. My chest is still hurting - like when you have bronchitis:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800322.jpg

Yet another lesson learned is that some people are really
picky when it comes to chemicals. This shot is at a friend's
house, where I didn't bother with the funnel and just poured
the acid directly down the tube. Of course, a lot went into the
bowl - which smoked and fumed. Hours later, my friend swore she
could still smell the acid (although I don't believe her):
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800357.jpg

Another lesson learned was that the plastic wrap actually
works BETTER than does the rubber banded sandwich bag, especially
when you remove it to pour more acid. The plastic wrap throws
away more easily without keeping acid in all the folds:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800391.jpg

Another good lesson was to not get cavalier about the acid.
Here you see me pouring it directly on the scrub brush in
the bowl. Problem was that droplets of acid started burning
my bare skin within minutes - even though they didn't hurt
at first.
http://www5.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800463.jpg

In summary, the biggest thing I learned is that the damage
from the acid doesn't hurt too badly at first - but it lingers on.

Also, I learned you can clean the bowl directly, but, you'll
get a few whiffs in your lung - which you'll know when you
get 'em as you'll start coughing away immediately.

The splashes on the bare skin only tingle and burn at first,
but later little blisters will develop on your fingers. No
big deal - but it would have been better had I taken the
stuff more seriously.

Anyway, hope others benefit from the experience outlined here
in pictures. If you have questions, ask away.

I don't think you should be messing with acid. Scooping it with bare hands?
Jeez...

Here's another tip: never pour water into the acid.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Danny D. wrote:
On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:14 -0400 krw wrote:

It really sounds like you need to be far more afraid than you have
been. Wow! You're a walking Darwin award

I do agree. Next time I'll wear gloves.

Of course, this is what my regular work gloves looks like after
only a short period of time using them outside ...

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12807700.jpg

... so if you know of better wearing (longer-lasting) thick
leather gloves than welding gloves, let me know.

Let's see...

You found out that acid attacks skin.

Now you want to protect your hands by wearing gloves made of skin.
Absorbent skin at that.

Forget that you ever heard of acid.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

On Apr 28, 8:43*pm, "Danny D." wrote:

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

Great quote!

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:43:12 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:05:06 -0700 Oren wrote:

When I say the huckle berries are ripe -- grab your basket and run.

What I like about lining up your ducks & following the rules, is the task works.
What I love about breaking the rules, is you learn HOW that task really works!


I'm known to be a little recalcitrant, myself :-\

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

... like hitting your thumb with a hammer a second time on the same job

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 20:55:24 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 08:50:43 +0000 Danny D. wrote:

I cupped the acid back and forth to cover the stains
in an attempt to speed up the process:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12800254.jpg

I should note that my wrists and hand swelled up like
a balloon, so, again, the lesson is never touch the acid
without gloves - and even then - avoid touching it if you
can.

No need to be afraid; just don't be cavalier.

.... surely you recall me saying to brush under the rim with a nylon
toilet brush

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 04:12:21 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:


But I also made pipe bombs as a kid; rode a bicycle without a helmet;
went hiking without telling my parents where I was going (they didn't
care and I didn't know); climbed any fence that said "keep out";
jumped off the swing at the highest point; dove into the water from
local bridges & swam even though the reservoir said "no swimming";
etc.

.... you run in the back of the pack with the dark horses ... LOL

Reminds of this song:

_Gary Allan - Get Off On The Pain _

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BAcstCYcZzQ&list=UU49nX2rl0oOZ7Dwdta7vT9w

me too

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 06:45:59 -0700 (PDT), Robert Macy
wrote:

On Apr 28, 8:43*pm, "Danny D." wrote:

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

Great quote!

.... school of hard knocks

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:30:06 -0700 Oren wrote:

... you run in the back of the pack with the dark horses ... LOL

Some dire warnings are from experience rather than ignorance;
while others are from ignorance rather than from experience.

The trick is to be able to discern the difference.

For example, all the dire warnings about torsion springs were
from people who had never done them. Sure, they can kill you -
and you'll notice I didn't play around with mine - but when
I researched actual garage door injuries (posted prior), it
turned out all the dire warnings about 10,000 people injured
a year were made by garage door installers - while medical
doctors could only find a handful of real injuries (not just
getting your finger pinched in the hinges) - and almost none
from the torsion spring itself - and the few that were from
the spring were from people who were just plain dumb (I posted
the OSHA reports previously) who didn't know what they were
doing. In this case, the dire warnings from OSHA are from
experience, not from ignorance.

Likewise, some of my neighbors complain about a few poison
oak fronds on the ground, where they go to great lengths to
spray them at a distance - all the while saying how dangerous
they are. I laugh to myself about what they're afraid of.
None of them, I'm sure, have ever tunneled through 300 feet
of the stuff on a steep hillside nor have they researched how
to prevent contamination with drillers clay nor have they ever
tested how to remove urushiol after the fact with home-made
surfactants (dish detergent), wetting agents (alcohol), oxidizers
(bleach), and replacers (spermicides). The point is that their
dire warnings of poison oak contamination is from ignorance
more so than from experience.

In contrast, the article that Oren pointed me to about
cleaning toilet bowl brown stains with muriatic acid
gave the appropriate level of caution where you 'should'
wear eye protection, gloves, and an appropriate respirator.

However, if you don't do any of those things, you can
still be just fine as long as you ventilate the room,
cover the bowl (and keep it covered), wait long enough
for the acid to work on its own, and most importantly,
try not to touch the acid or breath it in or spill it.
Of course, some warnings are not worth testing (e.g.,
Don't step in front of a train).

So, in summary, the lesson learned is that anyone who would
tell you NOT to use muriatic acid, and, instead, buy some
overpriced and assuredly safer "rust remover" substitute
on the supermarket shelves, is talking from ignorance,
not from experience.

If you take the appropriate cautions, you'll have no problem
whatsoever with the muriatic acid. I tested that hypothesis
myself!

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 13:16:03 +0200 ehernandez wrote:

I guess its okay to use it as long as you follow instructions. I usually
just pour a little in the toilet bowl and cover it for 30 minutes

The main problem with pouring into the toilet bowl is that much
of the staining is up near the top of the bowl and that much of
the scale is inside in the channels that the water follows.

After having done it the correct way, and having also done it
the incorrect way, I can definitely suggest what I found to be
the best method.

BTW, gloves are helpful; a mask isn't really needed; and eye
protection is a good idea in case you accidentally splash.

0. Don't be stingy on the acid (a gallon is a good amount).
1. Empty the toilet bowl of water (any way you want).
2. Plastic wrap the bowl (no need for tape).
3. Ventilate (a fan is enough but windows are good too).
4. Pour acid slowly using a funnel (no splashes!).
5. Plastic wrap the tube (no need for baggies & rubber bands).
6. Wait an hour (this is the slow and easy method).
7. Remove plastic & pour baking soda (it will use a lot!).
8. Remove tube plastic wrap over tank tube (ask me why).
9. Flush like there's no tomorrow (10 flushes is good).
10. Inspect & reapply as needed.

Note: If you cup and re-use the acid, you can get away with
a quarter of a gallon; but it's not worth saving the half
hour or the gallon to expose yourself to more HCl fumes
than you need to be exposed to (but don't expect to be
fume free. If you can't talk for a few minutes, then you
got way too much; but otherwise, expect a few whiffs of the
stuff to the point that you immediately notice it, and you
simply hold your breath and move away to breathe again
until the ventilation system removes those fumes.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 03:43:12 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 15:05:06 -0700 Oren wrote:

When I say the huckle berries are ripe -- grab your basket and run.

What I like about lining up your ducks & following the rules, is the task works.
What I love about breaking the rules, is you learn HOW that task really works!

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

You can be dead right, too.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 07:38:59 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:14 -0400 krw wrote:

It really sounds like you need to be far more afraid than you have
been. Wow! You're a walking Darwin award

I do agree. Next time I'll wear gloves.

Of course, this is what my regular work gloves looks like after
only a short period of time using them outside ...

http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12807700.jpg

... so if you know of better wearing (longer-lasting) thick
leather gloves than welding gloves, let me know.

No gloves are going to protect your lungs. You got of easy. Maybe.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 09:33:38 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

Now you want to protect your hands by wearing gloves made of skin.

Here's a personal look into my very private "glove" drawer:
http://www3.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12811661.jpg

1. For working outside, the best I can find are the TIG
welder's gloves. Not too thick but nice and long.

2. For most chemical jobs, I use the Costco nitrile gloves
by the boxfull (since they're single-use only).

3. For the easy jobs in between those two, I use the Costco
set of rubberized cloth gloves (but they are also single
use only as they're destroyed within minutes in most cases).

The lesson here, learned from experience, is that there is not
a single outdoor working glove in all the hardware stores
that doesn't fall apart in a day - or which doesn't protect
well enough (either the leather is too thin or the wrists
are too short); so I've come up with only three glove types
that work.

If you have better ideas for more durable outdoor work
gloves, that would be very useful advice indeed!

Note: That quest is OT for this thread, so I should take it up.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:07:46 -0700 Oren wrote:

surely you recall me saying to brush under the rim
with a nylon toilet brush

Oren,

EVERTHING, and I mean everything, you said was right on the
money!
- The brown stuff wasn't rust
- Scrubbing is futile
- Supermarket chemicals won't work for the tough stuff
- Bleach only whitened the problem
- The acid worked and nothing else did! == key contribution
- The hard part is up by the rim
- etc.

Given that, if you say huckleberries are ripe ... I'm gonna
grab my gloves and basket and follow you into the meadow!

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 09:28:24 -0400 dadiOH wrote:

I don't think you should be messing with acid.
Scooping it with bare hands?

What I'll say, from experience, is that you 'can'
touch the acid - but that you shouldn't.

It won't hurt too badly - at least not in the
beginning - but it's just not worth it since
nitrile gloves protect your skin rather well.

At least I know what I'm talking about when I
say this.

And do not drop sodium metal in water either.
Do not cut the sodium metal with a butter knife,
and then lift the shiny chunk out of the kerosene
and drop it in a pan of cold water. Immediately, it
will spin around around sizzling away until, all of
a sudden, BAM! It will explode and shoot tiny particles
of burning sodium in all directions.

(Ask me how I know this.)

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 12:07:41 -0400 krw wrote:

Hence, there are more lessons learned when things go wrong than when they go right.

You can be dead right, too.

Some lessons have longer-term implications ... like stepping in front of a train.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 15:50:20 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:30:06 -0700 Oren wrote:

... you run in the back of the pack with the dark horses ... LOL

Some dire warnings are from experience rather than ignorance;
while others are from ignorance rather than from experience.

The trick is to be able to discern the difference.


.... or learn to discern the difference

You prevent prison escapes from ignorance, write a new directive
policy and detailed post orders.

I've seen experienced ignorance, too.

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 16:31:19 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 08:07:46 -0700 Oren wrote:

surely you recall me saying to brush under the rim
with a nylon toilet brush

Oren,

EVERTHING, and I mean everything, you said was right on the
money!
- The brown stuff wasn't rust
- Scrubbing is futile
- Supermarket chemicals won't work for the tough stuff
- Bleach only whitened the problem
- The acid worked and nothing else did! == key contribution
- The hard part is up by the rim
- etc.


I read your link above. The one thing missing in the article was
baking soda, to neutralize the acid. It did not mention if sewer pipes
were metal, septic tanks, etc.

Given that, if you say huckleberries are ripe ... I'm gonna
grab my gloves and basket and follow you into the meadow!

You give me to much credit, Danny. bob haller threads, was were I
learned the acid trick. Except, in that thread the subject was a slow
flush toilet. Thus, my first link you followed.

Same principle about minerals.

What I like about lining up your ducks &
following the rules, is the task works.
What I love about breaking the rules, is
you learn HOW that task really works!

Hence, there are more lessons learned
when things go wrong than when they
go right.

You can be dead right, too.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

WOW...Just when I think I've seen it all, someone like you comes
bumbling along.

I bet you're the type that leaves the sun shield in place on your car
windshield, just to see how far you can get, before getting dead, huh?
OR, wait...you want to step off a hi-rise 30 stories up too see if
gravity really works....

You are a clever troll/dummy of the highest magnitude...

Like a red-neck, "watch this"...

You,son are sick!

On Mon, 29 Apr 2013 04:12:21 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
wrote:

IRON-OUT will work fine as well.

Hmm... Oren is wholly right that the brown stuff isn't usually rust
(and certainly was not in my case). It's what he delicately calls
"kooties" ensconced within layers of limey deposits, such that
you can turn them white with bleach, but you need acid to remove
the layers under and above - which removes the kooties in the process.

....no, no, no. I said cooties. Or is kooties French? Like Coo-Tay?

Neither are the same as coochie.

On Monday, April 29, 2013 7:33:38 AM UTC-6, dadiOH wrote:
Danny D. wrote:

On Sun, 28 Apr 2013 17:28:14 -0400 krw wrote:



It really sounds like you need to be far more afraid than you have

been. Wow! You're a walking Darwin award



I do agree. Next time I'll wear gloves.



Of course, this is what my regular work gloves looks like after

only a short period of time using them outside ...



http://www2.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/12807700.jpg



... so if you know of better wearing (longer-lasting) thick

leather gloves than welding gloves, let me know.



Let's see...



You found out that acid attacks skin.



Now you want to protect your hands by wearing gloves made of skin.

Absorbent skin at that.



Forget that you ever heard of acid.



--



dadiOH

____________________________



Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?

Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?

Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net

Those TWO characters are hopeless but there is no use saying anything as
they will just have to learn the hard way. "Scooping acid with one's bare
hands"...totally ridiculous. Too many Superman comics perhaps???

Danny D. wrote:

If you have better ideas for more durable outdoor work
gloves, that would be very useful advice indeed!


Outdoors I use leather if I use any at all. But we weren't talking outdoor,
we were talking HCl. I probably wouldn't wear gloves for that either but if
I did they would be rubber.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race?
Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change?
Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net