It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Before you "replace, again" have you tried the
cleaners that advertise here and there? Have you
rented a machine at the store? Last week, I did
shampooing for a couple friends, and they were
thrilled at how clean the carpet looked. I use
powdered ultra Tide as detergent. About a tbsp
per 5 gal bucket of super hot water.

That said, my feet prefer carpet. I've heard the
requirement is good quality padding, under the
carpet.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

I don't notice any difference walking on hardwood versus carpets, and
I'm 65. Hardwood is better for taking a running slide.
I much prefer hardwood for these 2 main reasons:
No stinking, dust-laden carpets, which are a major job to maintain and
replace.
More decor options with area rugs, although I guess you can put rugs
on carpet too.

As always, it gets to personal preference.
We use area rugs and runners for high traffic areas, so there's little
walking on bare floor anyway.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

It's a personal thing. However, I much prefer solid floors, meaning
tile, linoleum, or wood. Carpeting is too much trouble to clean and
maintain, and it builds up dirt that can cause problems for people with
respiratory problems, no matter how much you clean it.
A throw rug can be out over hardwood, yet it can be taken outdoors in
warm weather and be hosed down, and can be replaced without an
installer. The only bad thing about throw rugs is that they like to get
bunched up and slide around, which can trip people. I have heard they
sell some sort of velcro fastners to help with that problem, but I'm not
sure where to buy them.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

I presently have all tile and enjoy it with area rugs in a slab
foundation home.

Some things to consider is pets, color, etc.

Large dogs can leave nail marks and scratches in wood. Water damage is
a problem with wood, say a flooded hallway next to a bathroom. Easy
cleaning for wood.

Carpets really are nasty over time. Never again after all the years of
having carpet.

I'd suggest you get some samples of wood and carpet from a store and
take them home. Scatter them around various rooms and see which you
prefer. (hallway and bedrooms look good using wood.

Start with light to medium colored samples. I've seen "black" hardwood
flooring that looked awful to me and you can see the dust easier.

On 11/21/2012 6:36 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Before you "replace, again" have you tried the
cleaners that advertise here and there? Have you
rented a machine at the store? Last week, I did
shampooing for a couple friends, and they were
thrilled at how clean the carpet looked. I use
powdered ultra Tide as detergent. About a tbsp
per 5 gal bucket of super hot water.

That said, my feet prefer carpet. I've heard the
requirement is good quality padding, under the
carpet.
We just bought a home that has white carpet....previous owner had three
kids and a big dog, but must have been a fantastic housekeeper. I was
inclined to not shampoo carpet, as it didn't look bad. Decided to go
ahead, as it was much easier with no furniture and I'm getting old
enough I might not do it again myself. Whew! There was plenty of grime
in the recovered water, so glad I did it. Used a rented Bissell machine
and their detergent. Great job, although the machine is a tad heavy.
I've never used a hired carpet cleaning service, so don't know how they
compare.

On Nov 21, 5:24*pm, Gordon Shumway wrote:
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. *This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. *The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Check with a couple of Realtors if you think you might be selling the
house within a dozen years or so.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?


Our choice is hardwood flooring. Consider an engineered wood also,
that is made like plywood and has a veneer top with a very durable
finish.

New carpet looks nice, but goes down hill soon after. It is very easy
for it to collects dirt, crumbs, bugs, insect feces, and anything else
that can get in between the fibers. If you have allergies, get rid of
the carpet.

Wood is smooth and can be wet or dry mopped as needed. Yes, I said
wet. You don't slosh a bucket of water, but damp mop.

Our downstairs is engineered wood, but we do have a carpet runner at
the entry door and a throw rug in front of my chair. The entry runner
does get the incoming dirt but is low cost and can be easily tossed
and replaced.

I guess we are getting to be considered "old people" at 66 & 67, but I
don't find it any harder on us physically.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 19:17:08 -0800 (PST), "hr(bob) "
wrote:

On Nov 21, 5:24Â*pm, Gordon Shumway wrote:
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. Â*This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. Â*The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Check with a couple of Realtors if you think you might be selling the
house within a dozen years or so.
Up here in Ontario Canada hardwood brings a premium over carpet
unless the hardwood is trashed.

Gordon:

As with most things, the quality of the decision you make depends entirely on how much you know.

so, Welcome to Carpet 101:

IF (big if there) you opt to replace your old carpet with new carpet, spend a bit more and buy a carpet that is:

a. made of nylon,

b. that is solution dyed, and

c. is "level loop" construction.

And, it's a good idea to get a good underpad for the carpet as well to maximize the life of your carpet.

Carpet is made of wool and three synthetic fibers; nylon, polyester and olefin. Olefin is chemically similar to polypropylene. Nylon is the strongest fiber used to make carpets, and so nylon carpets are the longest lasting carpets. Over 80 percent of the commercial carpet produced in the USA is made of nylon fiber. Real wool carpets are the most expensive, but are also the softest and warmest on bare or stocking feet, and also allow "furniture dents" left in the carpet pile by furniture legs to come out the fastest.

"Solution dying" simply means the the carpet fiber gets it's colour by adding tiny coloured solid particles (called "pigments") to the liquid plastic before it's drawn into a thin fiber. Consequently, the colour of the fiber comes from tiny coloured solid particles suspended inside the fiber very much like the raisins in raisin bread. This is different than conventionally dyed nylon and polyester carpet fiber where the colour comes from coloured dye molecules sticking to "polar" sites on the outside surface of the fiber.

The advantage of having a solution dyed carpet is really two fold:

1. Solution dyed nylon carpet is stain resistant. That's because when they make solution dyed nylon carpet fiber, they also conventionally dye that fiber immediately afterwards, but that conventional dying is done with a clear and colourless dye. The purpose in doing that is to get the clear colourless dye molecules to stick to all the polar sites on the nylon fiber's surface where water based stain molecules would stick, and that makes the fiber stain resistant by denying water based stain molecules a place to stick to on the fiber. So, you'll find that solution dyed nylon carpet is hard to stain because of the lack of available polar sites on the surface of the nylon that don't already have a clear dye molecules sticking to them.

2. Because the colour in solution dyed nylon carpet fiber comes from tiny coloured particles encased in the plastic carpet fiber, if push comes to shove, you can use bleach straight out of the jug to remove otherwise impossible stains from solution dyed nylon carpets without bleaching the colour out of the carpet. That's because the bleach never actually comes in contact with the pigments, which are encased in the plastic fiber.

Now, carpet companies will never tell you to use bleach on their solution dyed nylon carpets to remove stains. That's because applying bleach is likely to remove the clear dye from the surface of the fiber, thereby making that area of the carpet more susceptible to water based stains in future. But, even though that area of the carpet is now more susceptible to stains, you can still remove any stains on it with bleach, and that's better than living with a stained carpet.

So, when cleaning a stain out of a solution dyed nylon carpet, it's always best to try cleaning it out with just water or mineral spirits first. That way you don't remove the clear dye and the stain resistance it provides unnecessarily. Only use bleach if you can't get the stain out completely with just water or mineral spirits. And dilute the bleach with 5 parts water and keep a wet/dry vaccuum cleaner handy to remove the dilute bleach from the carpet as soon as the stain disappears. That way you remove as little of the clear dye (and the stain resistance it provides) as possible, while still removing the stain. Alternatively, you can also use hydrogen peroxide to remove stains from solution dyed carpet without affecting the colour of the carpet.

In my apartment block living rooms, I won't install anything except a level loop solution dyed nylon carpet because they last the longest and if push comes to shove, I can almost always get a stain out, even if I have to use bleach to do it.

And finally, level loop carpet is the most durable to foot traffic and easiest to walk on because there's a natural resilience to a loop. Loops return more of the energy of a foot fall, so there's a bit of "springiness" to a level loop carpet that makes it easy to walk on. Level loop carpets are also easier than plush carpets for wheel chairs to roll on. (aside: the reason they always use real hardwood for dance floors is because wood has a similar springiness to it that makes it preferable to other flooring materials for dancing)

Unfortunately, because solution dyed nylon carpet is only available in commercial carpet, and virtually all commercial carpet is level loop, then you're pretty much stuck with level loop if you want solution dyed nylon carpet. That's fine for living rooms, dining rooms and hallways, but in bedrooms where most people walk with bare feet or only socks on their feet, a "plush" or "saxony" carpet where the loops are cut to provide a softer carpet to walk on is often preferred. But, since you probably won't be eating or drinking in the bedrooms, or using any kinds of chemicals that would stain carpet, you might want to go with a conventionally dyed nylon plush or saxony carpet in your bedrooms.

PS: Plush and Saxony carpets are basically level loop carpets in which the loops have been cut. That results in a much softer feel when you walk on the carpet. Also, because each individual tuft can lean a bit one way or the other, such "cut pile" carpets will show an apparant difference in colour depending on which way the tufts are leaning, and so the rotating brush on a vaccuum cleaner will leave apparant "streaks" on the carpet. If you don't like that, don't buy a cut pile carpet. A "Saxony" carpet is basically a plush carpet with a tighter twist on the carpet tufts. That makes the tufts smaller in diameter, and that means you can fit more tufts in per square inch, and hence make a heavier, firmer and more durable carpet. So, saxony carpets cost more than plush carpets because they'll typically contain more ounces of fiber per square yard of carpet, but that additional fiber makes a Saxony a more durable carpet than a Plush.

PS2: Olefin plastic cannot be dyed by conventional methods, so ALL 100% olefin carpets will be solution dyed. Unfortunately, olefin is the weakest fiber used to make carpet, and olefin carpets are therefore the least durable. Still, lots of commercial carpeting is made of olefin fiber for bars and restaurants. Olefin fiber is the least prone to staining by water based food and drinks, and Olefin carpet is relatively cheap, so replacing olefin carpet often is an operating strategy preferred by many bars and restaurants.

PS3: Contrary to popular belief, "shampooing" a carpet is not the most effective way of cleaning it. That's because as soon as you get a carpet wet, you create surface tension which causes solid soils to stick to the surface of the carpet fiber, making them harder to remove. Next time you're at the beach, try cleaning sand off of wet feet and dry feet and see which one works better. Exactly the same principle applies to carpeting. The best way to clean a carpet is to vaccuum with a vaccuum cleaner that has a rotating or agitating brush first to remove the solid dry soils, and THEN shampoo the carpet to remove any dried liquid spills.

PS4: When you buy underpad, you will be given the option of buying a "3 pound" or a "7 pound" foam chip underpad (or weights similar to these) which most carpet retailers keep in stock. Those weights refer to the weight of the underpad per cubic foot. The advantage in buying a firmer thicker underpad is that the underpad absorbs more of the force and energy of every foot fall, thereby reducing the force and energy that has to be absorbed by the carpet, and that results in the carpet not being matted down as quickly and the carpet last longer. You get the most bang for the buck if you buy the heavier foam chip underpad like the 6, 7 and 8 pound foam chip pads. Most carpet retailers will also offer "premium" underpads that will often cost as much as very cheap carpet. In my case, I always buy premium underpad because it lasts forever and that means that I don't have to bother replacing the underpad when I replace carpets in my apartments. So, a premium underpad is a good investment, but you get the biggest bang for the buck with a heavier foam chip pad because of the lower cost. If any carpet retailer is offering "free underpad with installation", he's offering free 3 pound pad, not free 7 pound pad. For the relatively small cost of underpad, you're as well off to pay to have a 7 or 8 pound foam chip pad installed to get better feel, firmness and a longer lifespan out of your carpet. Also, if you have pets, then opt for a premium pad (also often called a "pet pad"). Pet pads are made from foam that is made with less blowing gas so that the bubbles that form don't intersect. That makes the pad much less permeable to liquids, and better protects the wood underlayment (or even hardwood flooring) under the pad from absorbing pet urine and having to be replaced.

I don't know much about hardwood flooring, but I do know that real wood contains chemicals called "tannins". When tannins combine with iron ions, the result is a black chemical commonly called "iron gall ink". So, if you ever see a round black stain on a hardwood floor, it's likely to have been caused by overwatering a floor standing plant. The water picked up iron ions on it's way through the soil, and when that water leaked onto the hardwood, the iron ions reacted with the tannin to form a permanent black stain right inside the wood.

Gordon Shumway wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

I'm renovating a bungalow in England and went for floating engineered
hardwood over the concrete subfloors in the bedrooms. Slate tiles in the
hall and kitchen and regular tiles in the bathroom.

I'm very pleased - it's a million times easier to keep clean with the kids -
a quick hoover takes off any fluff.

If you do go for hardwood, go for solid or engineered[1] with a thick
hardwood layer (at least 1/8") - this way any minor damage is not really a
problem and the floor can cope with about 2 full sandings in its life, which
should be many many decades.

What you are laying onto makes a difference as to the best choice.

Soem other things to consider:

What subfloors do you have - concrete, suspended timber?

If concrete, are the slabs insulated (or your area so hot it is not
relevant).

Is the damp proof layer in the floor OK?

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

"Gordon Shumway" wrote in message
...
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

We just put carpeting in the living rooms, stairs, & hall. We put laminate
in the kitchen & dining. The foyer is tiled.

Just choosing carpeting is a hard choice, ended up getting it through
ProSource. Instead of buying throw rugs for in front of the sink/patio
door/ & in the foyer, we took the carpet to a carpet binder, had the carpet
pieces sized to our liking, and had anti skid material put on the carpet.
Turned out fantastic, not cheap, but wanted it to last.

If you purchase a good piece of rug, there's a huge difference from
carpeting purchased for short term use or a rental.

No regrets here.

On 11/21/2012 6:23 PM, Gordon Shumway wrote:
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Lots of considerations:
Dust/mite/pollen allergies? Hardwood floors.
Less dusting/vacuuming desired? Hardwood floors.
Cold slab or cold room underneath in a climate with significant winter
weather? Carpets.
Room gets noisy use or complaints of noise one floor down? Carpets.
Audiophile quality system? Carpets.
Usually walk around in socks or bare feet? Carpets.
Incontinent pets or people? Hardwood floors.
Plan to lay area rugs over the hardwood floors? You are spending more
than for either choice alone and have taken on the allergy issues again.
Decorating options greater with rugs than with bare hard wood floors.
You also should consider how much use the room gets. If not much, the
potential disadvantages of carpets are less significant.
Maintenance costs depend on how likely there will be a major spill (and
of what) or something or someone producing a deep scratch or gouge. A
professional re-finishing of a damaged hardwood floor (sanding,
re-varnishing with or without staining) can cost as much or more than
replacing wall to wall carpeting (depending on the details).

Gordon Shumway wrote:
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Huh? It's no harder to walk on than the sidewalk.

In my view, laminate is preferable to carpet for many reasons. Some a
* In many instances laminate is cheaper than carpet*
* Laminate is fairly easy to install for a DIY person and a fun, week-end,
project
* Laminate is MUCH easier to keep clean and considerably tougher to damage
than carpet
* By changing out the throw rugs, you can easily alter the decor of the
room. Try that with purple shag!

If you do decide on laminate, check back here. We who've worked the project
can provide some really useful tips.
---------
* Check Lumber Liquidators and Floor & Decor Outlets for economy laminate
(they've got quality stuff, too). In most cases, prices are half that of the
box stores. I've seen perfectly usable laminate, say for a spare bedroom, at
$0.49/sq ft.

Oren wrote:

I presently have all tile and enjoy it with area rugs in a slab
foundation home.

Some things to consider is pets, color, etc.

Large dogs can leave nail marks and scratches in wood. Water damage is
a problem with wood, say a flooded hallway next to a bathroom. Easy
cleaning for wood.

Not very easily. Laminate - and hardwood planks - are coated with Aluminum
silicate or Cobolthorium-G, I forget, but it's the same stuff used on jet
fighter windshields. I've tried to damage scraps by scraping them with nails
and rasps. No discernable damage. I also tried soaking the scraps in a glass
of water for over a month. The amount of "swelling" or other distortion was
well within the limits of my micrometer to measure (~0.001 inch)


Carpets really are nasty over time. Never again after all the years of
having carpet.

I'd suggest you get some samples of wood and carpet from a store and
take them home. Scatter them around various rooms and see which you
prefer. (hallway and bedrooms look good using wood.

Remember, too, that the floor, like merchandising shelves, should not be the
object of the visitors' attention. In a retail environment, shoppers should
be looking at the merchandise, not the shelving. Likewise in a home, a
visitor's eyes should be drawn to the furnishings, wall hangings, and the
naked blonde passed out on the couch, not the floor or the bare walls.


Start with light to medium colored samples. I've seen "black" hardwood
flooring that looked awful to me and you can see the dust easier.

Yep. A black floor, like chartruse shag, will overpower everything in the
room.

Laminate is essentially wallpaper over a dimensionally-stable base then
covered with the above mentioned clear finish. As such, the variety is
almost limitless. You can go wrong with basic black.

Tim Watts wrote:

If you do go for hardwood, go for solid or engineered[1] with a thick
hardwood layer (at least 1/8") - this way any minor damage is not
really a problem and the floor can cope with about 2 full sandings in
its life, which should be many many decades.

On the other hand, you could simply replace the worn-out laminate with
another application. The stuff goes down - and comes up - quite easily. I'll
wager that replacing a laminate floor is cheaper and easier than sanding and
refinishing a hardwood floor surface.


What you are laying onto makes a difference as to the best choice.

Soem other things to consider:

What subfloors do you have - concrete, suspended timber?

If concrete, are the slabs insulated (or your area so hot it is not
relevant).

Is the damp proof layer in the floor OK?

By "damp proof" I suspect you mean prevention of moisture rising from below
the concrete slab. There's an easy test for that involving taping down a 2
ft' square of plastic film on the slab for a few days then looking to see
whether there's any water visible between the slab and the plastic.

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially plastic
film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the actual flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with the
vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one anyway.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:17:52 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Gordon Shumway wrote:
It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Huh? It's no harder to walk on than the sidewalk.


Not an expert, but some people have feet trouble with hard surfaces.
Usually seen the comparison applied with concrete versus dirt or turf.
Horses and athletes.
But when I was doing heavy factory work some guys said wood was easier
on their feet/legs than concrete.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:31:20 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Likewise in a home, a
visitor's eyes should be drawn to the furnishings, wall hangings, and the
naked blonde passed out on the couch, not the floor or the bare walls.

Tell me more about the blonde.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Thank you all for your replies. I'm leaning more toward wood than
carpeting. Now all I have to do is convince my darling bride.

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:36:58 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Before you "replace, again" have you tried the
cleaners that advertise here and there? Have you
rented a machine at the store?

These carpets are long passed their prime. They needed replacing
several years ago. Cleaning them wouldn't help.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:31:20 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Large dogs can leave nail marks and scratches in wood. Water damage is
a problem with wood, say a flooded hallway next to a bathroom. Easy
cleaning for wood.

Not very easily. Laminate - and hardwood planks - are coated with Aluminum
silicate or Cobolthorium-G, I forget, but it's the same stuff used on jet
fighter windshields. I've tried to damage scraps by scraping them with nails
and rasps. No discernable damage. I also tried soaking the scraps in a glass
of water for over a month. The amount of "swelling" or other distortion was
well within the limits of my micrometer to measure (~0.001 inch)

I know of the metal in the wood. It cost me dull blades. I cut more
boxes of wood flooring than I recall. Install is perfect. Then some
clown brings in a ladder. Not deep, but you can see the scratches.

You can cover them with a color marker or wax pencil.

It just ain't fair.

On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 20:01:49 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

On Wed, 21 Nov 2012 17:23:09 -0600, Gordon Shumway
wrote:

It's time to replace our carpeting again and I was thinking about the
possibility of installing hardwood flooring instead for all or part of
it. This would be the living room, dining room, hallway and bedrooms
only. The kitchen, bathrooms and entrance are tiled.

My wife said something about hardwood may be harder on older people
than carpeting, we're in our mid 60's, but I don't know about that.

Does anyone have any experience or preferences that may help me decide
which way to go?

Thank you all for your replies. I'm leaning more toward wood than
carpeting. Now all I have to do is convince my darling bride.

It wouldn't take any convincing for mine. Some day, again.

Wood may be slippery and can cause more accidents than carpets. That's what I think your wife is saying. With carpets you can be sure that there are no slippery floors but it is also a bit costly in terms of maintenance. - yve

Nestor, thanks for the carpet 101. I know your response was intended for Gordon. However, I found it very educational with specific information.

Thanks for taking the time to read it, Sta No.

Gordon Shumway wrote:
On Thu, 22 Nov 2012 17:31:20 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Likewise in a home, a
visitor's eyes should be drawn to the furnishings, wall hangings,
and the naked blonde passed out on the couch, not the floor or the
bare walls.

Tell me more about the blonde.

Actually, I paid her scant attention since my eyes were locked on the
hideous flooring.

On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:52:24 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Tell me more about the blonde.

Actually, I paid her scant attention since my eyes were locked on the
hideous flooring.

Damn it "bub, I'm glad I had no spit in my mouth,,,

Oren wrote:
On Fri, 23 Nov 2012 19:52:24 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Tell me more about the blonde.

Actually, I paid her scant attention since my eyes were locked on the
hideous flooring.

Damn it "bub, I'm glad I had no spit in my mouth,,,

You had to have been there. It was really awful.

HeyBub wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

If you do go for hardwood, go for solid or engineered[1] with a thick
hardwood layer (at least 1/8") - this way any minor damage is not
really a problem and the floor can cope with about 2 full sandings in
its life, which should be many many decades.

On the other hand, you could simply replace the worn-out laminate with
another application. The stuff goes down - and comes up - quite easily.
I'll wager that replacing a laminate floor is cheaper and easier than
sanding and refinishing a hardwood floor surface.

I'm not so sure - but it's close. Depends partly what you are comparing -
good laminates are not that cheap (eg Pergo, which I have used in the past)

By "damp proof" I suspect you mean prevention of moisture rising from
below the concrete slab.

Yes.

There's an easy test for that involving taping
down a 2 ft' square of plastic film on the slab for a few days then
looking to see whether there's any water visible between the slab and the
plastic.

Indeed - I did that. In one case, I didn't even have to bother, the
previously laid lino did it for me as evidenced by the musty black patch.

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially
plastic film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the actual
flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with the
vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one anyway.

Agree - the cost of a sheet of plastic is peanuts in the grand scheme.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

For anyone that's interested, here is some information on cleaning carpets you probably won't find anywhere else:

1. Solid dirts like skin cells, road grit, pollen, etc. will gradually accumulate in a carpet over it';s lifetime. No matter what anyone tells you, once that dirt works it's way deep into the carpet pile, no vaccuum cleaner or carpet shampoo'er is going to get it out.

2. The way to tell when your carpet is ready for the dumpster is if you shampoo the carpet and it smells like a wet dog for a week or two afterward until it dries out. What's happening is exactly the same thing that happens when you give a dog a bath. All of the bacteria deep in the carpet pile suddenly find themselves in bacteria heaven because the moisture that's been added to the carpet gives them mobility to move around, and there's plenty of food for them to feed on in the form of dead skin cells, pollen, etc. So, you get a bacterial population explosion inside your carpet, and that's what makes it smell just like a wet dog until it dries out and the bacteria go dormant.

3. Professional carpet cleaners are well aware of this and when they get called to shampoo an old carpet, they add a bacteriacide to their solution water so that the bacteriacide kills all the bacteria that gets wet, thereby avoiding the smell which would otherwise occur afterwards. They do that simply to avoid customer complaints about them "causing the carpet to smell up the house", but that don't mean the carpet doesn't need to be replaced.

4. If you rent a carpet shampoo'er, and you feel compelled to follow Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions to add 5 ounces of carpet soap for each gallon of solution tank water, then go over the carpet afterwards with just clean water to remove the excess soap from the carpet.

Most professional carpet cleaning soaps will tell you to use 1 to 2 fluid ounces of soap per 5 gallons of solution tank water. By following Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions, and using 5 ounces of soap per gallon, you're using much more soap than you really need. And then, when you consider that most rental carpet shampoo'ers don't have all that much suction (see PS below), you end up leaving too much residual soap in the carpet after shampoo'ing it. That soap leaves a sticky soap film over the surface of all the carpet fibers as the water evaporates and the carpet dries out, making the carpet "sticky" so that it gets dirty faster and making normal vaccuuming ineffective at removing that dirt. In fact, the only effective way to remove that dirt is to shampoo the carpet again to dissolve the sticky dirty soap film. But, when people do shampoo the carpet again, they'll think to themselves: "Wow, look at how dirty the recovery tank water is. This carpet shampoo'er is really geting this carpet clean!", and that's bogus. All that's happening is that your're dissolving the dirty soap film on all the carpet fibers, and if you followed Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions, all you did was replace that sticky soap film so your carpet will be just as dirty in another year or two.

You can avoid this problem by either using less soap in the shampooer to begin with, or doing a second pass over the cleaned carpet with just clean water in the solution tank to recover the residual soap.

PS: Just in the same way that gasoline engines are rated according to their number of cylinders and the horsepower they produce, vaccuum motors are rated according to number of stages they have and the "inches of water lift" (which is a measure of vaccuum strength) they produce. A normal single stage vaccuum motor like you find in a Hoover upright vaccuum cleaner will typically have only a single stage vaccuum motor and provide 30 inches of water lift. A good quality wet/dry Shop-Vac style vaccuum cleaner will typically have a two stage vaccuum motor and provide about 60 inches of water lift. An entry level professional carpet cleaner will typically have either a single three stage vaccuum motor or two two stage vaccum motors piped in parallel and provide from 80 to 100 inches of water lift. My carpet shampooer has two three stage vaccuum motors in parallel and provides 183 inches of water lift according to it's specifications. And, you can get gasoline powered truck mounted units that use a gasoline engine to run 6 to 8 three stage vaccuum motors simultaneously that will suck a golf ball through a garden hose.

The more suction your shampoo'er has, the more dirty soapy water you will get out of the carpet with it, and the less soap and dirt will be left behind in the carpet once it's dry. It's the fact that rental carpet shampooers typically only have a single two stage vaccuum motor, and the fact that Rug Doctor and Easy Off tell you to use too much soap, that results in them leaving too much soapy soiled water behind in the carpet, and that sticky soap film remaining in the carpet when it's dry. It's that residual soap that makes the carpet get dirty faster, and if I was a suspicious person, I'd say that both Rug Doctor and Easy Off are intentionally misleading people to use too much soap when cleaning their carpet SO THAT their carpets get dirty faster and the only effective way of getting that dirt out is to rent a carpet shampoo'er again. And, that's not even accounting for people's tendency to use twice as much soap as recommended to ge the carpet "twice as clean".

People can decide for themselves if they agree with me or not, but I believe there's a scam going on here.

Tim Watts wrote:

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially
plastic film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the
actual flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with
the vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one
anyway.

Agree - the cost of a sheet of plastic is peanuts in the grand scheme.

I don't think it's EXACTLY peanuts. Vapor barrier material may be as low as
five cents/sq ft (impregnated paper) up to, if it includes cushioning
underlayment, up to $0.90/sq ft.

Note there is NO difference between a vinyl vapor barrier and 6 mil
contractor trash bags. With the latter, you'll do a bit more cutting and
taping. That's all.

Or you can use roofing felt, which is probably the easiest to install and
pretty cheap ($0.11/sq ft from HD).

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 10:10:50 +0000, Tim Watts
wrote:

HeyBub wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

If you do go for hardwood, go for solid or engineered[1] with a thick
hardwood layer (at least 1/8") - this way any minor damage is not
really a problem and the floor can cope with about 2 full sandings in
its life, which should be many many decades.

On the other hand, you could simply replace the worn-out laminate with
another application. The stuff goes down - and comes up - quite easily.
I'll wager that replacing a laminate floor is cheaper and easier than
sanding and refinishing a hardwood floor surface.

I'm not so sure - but it's close. Depends partly what you are comparing -
good laminates are not that cheap (eg Pergo, which I have used in the past)

By "damp proof" I suspect you mean prevention of moisture rising from
below the concrete slab.

Yes.

There's an easy test for that involving taping
down a 2 ft' square of plastic film on the slab for a few days then
looking to see whether there's any water visible between the slab and the
plastic.

Indeed - I did that. In one case, I didn't even have to bother, the
previously laid lino did it for me as evidenced by the musty black patch.

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially
plastic film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the actual
flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with the
vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one anyway.

Agree - the cost of a sheet of plastic is peanuts in the grand scheme.
Even better yet is something like "dri-floor" - or if you are using
12mm or thicker laminate, just the plastic waffle like used on
foundation exterior to keep water away from the concrete - basically
the same stuff they put on the back of the aspenite to make
dri-floor.. It allows the moisture that comes up through the concrete
to drain away or otherwize dissipate - which plastic sheeting does not
- and it is MUCH more resistant to damage.

HeyBub wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially
plastic film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the
actual flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with
the vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one
anyway.

Agree - the cost of a sheet of plastic is peanuts in the grand scheme.

I don't think it's EXACTLY peanuts. Vapor barrier material may be as low
as five cents/sq ft (impregnated paper) up to, if it includes cushioning
underlayment, up to $0.90/sq ft.

Note there is NO difference between a vinyl vapor barrier and 6 mil
contractor trash bags. With the latter, you'll do a bit more cutting and
taping. That's all.

If you're paying say $2/sqft for a decent laminate (Pergo say) or $4+ for
engineered harwood (Kahrs), it would be really cheap to worry about 10c/sqft
for a vapour barrier

Or you can use roofing felt, which is probably the easiest to install and
pretty cheap ($0.11/sq ft from HD).

Felt - that's just pikey...

But as you say, many underlays are available with inbuilt vapour barriers -
it's what I used - and an underlay on concrete is a good idea unless you are
going to glue the boards down - get's rid of the "hardness" of the surface
and makes it much more pelasant to walk on barefoot.

--
Tim Watts Personal Blog: http://www.dionic.net/tim/

"History will be kind to me for I intend to write it."

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:11:08 +0000, nestork
wrote:


For anyone that's interested, here is some information on cleaning
carpets you probably won't find anywhere else:

1. Solid dirts like skin cells, road grit, pollen, etc. will gradually
accumulate in a carpet over it';s lifetime. No matter what anyone tells
you, once that dirt works it's way deep into the carpet pile, no vaccuum
cleaner or carpet shampoo'er is going to get it out.

2. The way to tell when your carpet is ready for the dumpster is if you
shampoo the carpet and it smells like a wet dog for a week or two
afterward until it dries out. What's happening is exactly the same
thing that happens when you give a dog a bath. All of the bacteria deep
in the carpet pile suddenly find themselves in bacteria heaven because
the moisture that's been added to the carpet gives them mobility to move
around, and there's plenty of food for them to feed on in the form of
dead skin cells, pollen, etc. So, you get a bacterial population
explosion inside your carpet, and that's what makes it smell just like a
wet dog until it dries out and the bacteria go dormant.

3. Professional carpet cleaners are well aware of this and when they
get called to shampoo an old carpet, they add a bacteriacide to their
solution water so that the bacteriacide kills all the bacteria that gets
wet, thereby avoiding the smell which would otherwise occur afterwards.
They do that simply to avoid customer complaints about them "causing the
carpet to smell up the house", but that don't mean the carpet doesn't
need to be replaced.

4. If you rent a carpet shampoo'er, and you feel compelled to follow Rug
Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions to add 5 ounces of carpet soap for
each gallon of solution tank water, then go over the carpet afterwards
with just clean water to remove the excess soap from the carpet.

Most professional carpet cleaning soaps will tell you to use 1 to 2
fluid ounces of soap per 5 gallons of solution tank water. By following
Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions, and using 5 ounces of soap per
gallon, you're using much more soap than you really need. And then,
when you consider that most rental carpet shampoo'ers don't have all
that much suction (see PS below), you end up leaving too much residual
soap in the carpet after shampoo'ing it. That soap leaves a sticky soap
film over the surface of all the carpet fibers as the water evaporates
and the carpet dries out, making the carpet "sticky" so that it gets
dirty faster and making normal vaccuuming ineffective at removing that
dirt. In fact, the only effective way to remove that dirt is to shampoo
the carpet again to dissolve the sticky dirty soap film. But, when
people do shampoo the carpet again, they'll think to themselves: "Wow,
look at how dirty the recovery tank water is. This carpet shampoo'er is
really geting this carpet clean!", and that's bogus. All that's
happening is that your're dissolving the dirty soap film on all the
carpet fibers, and if you followed Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's
instructions, all you did was replace that sticky soap film so your
carpet will be just as dirty in another year or two.

You can avoid this problem by either using less soap in the
shampooer to begin with, or doing a second pass over the cleaned carpet
with just clean water in the solution tank to recover the residual
soap.

PS: Just in the same way that gasoline engines are rated according to
their number of cylinders and the horsepower they produce, vaccuum
motors are rated according to number of stages they have and the "inches
of water lift" (which is a measure of vaccuum strength) they produce. A
normal single stage vaccuum motor like you find in a Hoover upright
vaccuum cleaner will typically have only a single stage vaccuum motor
and provide 30 inches of water lift. A good quality wet/dry Shop-Vac
style vaccuum cleaner will typically have a two stage vaccuum motor and
provide about 60 inches of water lift. An entry level professional
carpet cleaner will typically have either a single three stage vaccuum
motor or two two stage vaccum motors piped in parallel and provide from
80 to 100 inches of water lift. My carpet shampooer has two three stage
vaccuum motors in parallel and provides 183 inches of water lift
according to it's specifications. And, you can get gasoline powered
truck mounted units that use a gasoline engine to run 6 to 8 three stage
vaccuum motors simultaneously that will suck a golf ball through a
garden hose.

The more suction your shampoo'er has, the more dirty soapy water you
will get out of the carpet with it, and the less soap and dirt will be
left behind in the carpet once it's dry. It's the fact that rental
carpet shampooers typically only have a single two stage vaccuum motor,
and the fact that Rug Doctor and Easy Off tell you to use too much soap,
that results in them leaving too much soapy soiled water behind in the
carpet, and that sticky soap film remaining in the carpet when it's dry.
It's that residual soap that makes the carpet get dirty faster, and if
I was a suspicious person, I'd say that both Rug Doctor and Easy Off are
intentionally misleading people to use too much soap when cleaning their
carpet SO THAT their carpets get dirty faster and the only effective way
of getting that dirt out is to rent a carpet shampoo'er again. And,
that's not even accounting for people's tendency to use twice as much
soap as recommended to ge the carpet "twice as clean".

People can decide for themselves if they agree with me or not, but I
believe there's a scam going on here.

I don't know about a scam. The average homeowner really never
considers what you have stated. They just want carpet "cleaned".
Never thinking about what you stated. They are not interested in how
the sausage is made, they just want sausage.

The best carpet cleaning person I've met worked alone, no phone book
ads, etc. He worked on word of mouth, mostly in real estate for
agents. He retired some years ago. He had a truck mount unit and
steam.

The scams are these ads for cleaning 3 rooms for $29.00. Then they
want to pressure the home owner in to all kinds of treatments --
'smell-goodie', fabric guard, and such.

nestork wrote:
For anyone that's interested, here is some information on cleaning
carpets you probably won't find anywhere else:

1. Solid dirts like skin cells, road grit, pollen, etc. will gradually
accumulate in a carpet over it';s lifetime. No matter what anyone tells
you, once that dirt works it's way deep into the carpet pile, no vaccuum
cleaner or carpet shampoo'er is going to get it out.

2. The way to tell when your carpet is ready for the dumpster is if you
shampoo the carpet and it smells like a wet dog for a week or two
afterward until it dries out. What's happening is exactly the same
thing that happens when you give a dog a bath. All of the bacteria deep
in the carpet pile suddenly find themselves in bacteria heaven because
the moisture that's been added to the carpet gives them mobility to move
around, and there's plenty of food for them to feed on in the form of
dead skin cells, pollen, etc. So, you get a bacterial population
explosion inside your carpet, and that's what makes it smell just like a
wet dog until it dries out and the bacteria go dormant.

3. Professional carpet cleaners are well aware of this and when they
get called to shampoo an old carpet, they add a bacteriacide to their
solution water so that the bacteriacide kills all the bacteria that gets
wet, thereby avoiding the smell which would otherwise occur afterwards.
They do that simply to avoid customer complaints about them "causing the
carpet to smell up the house", but that don't mean the carpet doesn't
need to be replaced.

4. If you rent a carpet shampoo'er, and you feel compelled to follow Rug
Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions to add 5 ounces of carpet soap for
each gallon of solution tank water, then go over the carpet afterwards
with just clean water to remove the excess soap from the carpet.

Most professional carpet cleaning soaps will tell you to use 1 to 2
fluid ounces of soap per 5 gallons of solution tank water. By following
Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions, and using 5 ounces of soap per
gallon, you're using much more soap than you really need. And then,
when you consider that most rental carpet shampoo'ers don't have all
that much suction (see PS below), you end up leaving too much residual
soap in the carpet after shampoo'ing it. That soap leaves a sticky soap
film over the surface of all the carpet fibers as the water evaporates
and the carpet dries out, making the carpet "sticky" so that it gets
dirty faster and making normal vaccuuming ineffective at removing that
dirt. In fact, the only effective way to remove that dirt is to shampoo
the carpet again to dissolve the sticky dirty soap film. But, when
people do shampoo the carpet again, they'll think to themselves: "Wow,
look at how dirty the recovery tank water is. This carpet shampoo'er is
really geting this carpet clean!", and that's bogus. All that's
happening is that your're dissolving the dirty soap film on all the
carpet fibers, and if you followed Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's
instructions, all you did was replace that sticky soap film so your
carpet will be just as dirty in another year or two.

You can avoid this problem by either using less soap in the
shampooer to begin with, or doing a second pass over the cleaned carpet
with just clean water in the solution tank to recover the residual
soap.

PS: Just in the same way that gasoline engines are rated according to
their number of cylinders and the horsepower they produce, vaccuum
motors are rated according to number of stages they have and the "inches
of water lift" (which is a measure of vaccuum strength) they produce. A
normal single stage vaccuum motor like you find in a Hoover upright
vaccuum cleaner will typically have only a single stage vaccuum motor
and provide 30 inches of water lift. A good quality wet/dry Shop-Vac
style vaccuum cleaner will typically have a two stage vaccuum motor and
provide about 60 inches of water lift. An entry level professional
carpet cleaner will typically have either a single three stage vaccuum
motor or two two stage vaccum motors piped in parallel and provide from
80 to 100 inches of water lift. My carpet shampooer has two three stage
vaccuum motors in parallel and provides 183 inches of water lift
according to it's specifications. And, you can get gasoline powered
truck mounted units that use a gasoline engine to run 6 to 8 three stage
vaccuum motors simultaneously that will suck a golf ball through a
garden hose.

The more suction your shampoo'er has, the more dirty soapy water you
will get out of the carpet with it, and the less soap and dirt will be
left behind in the carpet once it's dry. It's the fact that rental
carpet shampooers typically only have a single two stage vaccuum motor,
and the fact that Rug Doctor and Easy Off tell you to use too much soap,
that results in them leaving too much soapy soiled water behind in the
carpet, and that sticky soap film remaining in the carpet when it's dry.
It's that residual soap that makes the carpet get dirty faster, and if
I was a suspicious person, I'd say that both Rug Doctor and Easy Off are
intentionally misleading people to use too much soap when cleaning their
carpet SO THAT their carpets get dirty faster and the only effective way
of getting that dirt out is to rent a carpet shampoo'er again. And,
that's not even accounting for people's tendency to use twice as much
soap as recommended to ge the carpet "twice as clean".

People can decide for themselves if they agree with me or not, but I
believe there's a scam going on here.




Just a couple adds. I use mean green with good results. I also add
oxyclean, which when drying activates killing bacteria and also keeps
working until dry, in cleaning.
My borrowed machine works well. Hoover.

The soaps don't usually smell, and most just leave a carpet smell,
regardless. You can try washing machine smelling crystals that dissolve in
the mix.
There was only one cleaner I used to use that smelled great. It was westlys
auto cleaner, interior, which they don't make anymore, darn.

Greg

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 18:11:08 +0000, nestork
wrote:


For anyone that's interested, here is some information on cleaning
carpets you probably won't find anywhere else:

1. Solid dirts like skin cells, road grit, pollen, etc. will gradually
accumulate in a carpet over it';s lifetime. No matter what anyone tells
you, once that dirt works it's way deep into the carpet pile, no vaccuum
cleaner or carpet shampoo'er is going to get it out.

2. The way to tell when your carpet is ready for the dumpster is if you
shampoo the carpet and it smells like a wet dog for a week or two
afterward until it dries out. What's happening is exactly the same
thing that happens when you give a dog a bath. All of the bacteria deep
in the carpet pile suddenly find themselves in bacteria heaven because
the moisture that's been added to the carpet gives them mobility to move
around, and there's plenty of food for them to feed on in the form of
dead skin cells, pollen, etc. So, you get a bacterial population
explosion inside your carpet, and that's what makes it smell just like a
wet dog until it dries out and the bacteria go dormant.

3. Professional carpet cleaners are well aware of this and when they
get called to shampoo an old carpet, they add a bacteriacide to their
solution water so that the bacteriacide kills all the bacteria that gets
wet, thereby avoiding the smell which would otherwise occur afterwards.
They do that simply to avoid customer complaints about them "causing the
carpet to smell up the house", but that don't mean the carpet doesn't
need to be replaced.

4. If you rent a carpet shampoo'er, and you feel compelled to follow Rug
Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions to add 5 ounces of carpet soap for
each gallon of solution tank water, then go over the carpet afterwards
with just clean water to remove the excess soap from the carpet.

Most professional carpet cleaning soaps will tell you to use 1 to 2
fluid ounces of soap per 5 gallons of solution tank water. By following
Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's instructions, and using 5 ounces of soap per
gallon, you're using much more soap than you really need. And then,
when you consider that most rental carpet shampoo'ers don't have all
that much suction (see PS below), you end up leaving too much residual
soap in the carpet after shampoo'ing it. That soap leaves a sticky soap
film over the surface of all the carpet fibers as the water evaporates
and the carpet dries out, making the carpet "sticky" so that it gets
dirty faster and making normal vaccuuming ineffective at removing that
dirt. In fact, the only effective way to remove that dirt is to shampoo
the carpet again to dissolve the sticky dirty soap film. But, when
people do shampoo the carpet again, they'll think to themselves: "Wow,
look at how dirty the recovery tank water is. This carpet shampoo'er is
really geting this carpet clean!", and that's bogus. All that's
happening is that your're dissolving the dirty soap film on all the
carpet fibers, and if you followed Rug Doctor's or Easy Off's
instructions, all you did was replace that sticky soap film so your
carpet will be just as dirty in another year or two.

You can avoid this problem by either using less soap in the
shampooer to begin with, or doing a second pass over the cleaned carpet
with just clean water in the solution tank to recover the residual
soap.

PS: Just in the same way that gasoline engines are rated according to
their number of cylinders and the horsepower they produce, vaccuum
motors are rated according to number of stages they have and the "inches
of water lift" (which is a measure of vaccuum strength) they produce. A
normal single stage vaccuum motor like you find in a Hoover upright
vaccuum cleaner will typically have only a single stage vaccuum motor
and provide 30 inches of water lift. A good quality wet/dry Shop-Vac
style vaccuum cleaner will typically have a two stage vaccuum motor and
provide about 60 inches of water lift. An entry level professional
carpet cleaner will typically have either a single three stage vaccuum
motor or two two stage vaccum motors piped in parallel and provide from
80 to 100 inches of water lift. My carpet shampooer has two three stage
vaccuum motors in parallel and provides 183 inches of water lift
according to it's specifications. And, you can get gasoline powered
truck mounted units that use a gasoline engine to run 6 to 8 three stage
vaccuum motors simultaneously that will suck a golf ball through a
garden hose.

The more suction your shampoo'er has, the more dirty soapy water you
will get out of the carpet with it, and the less soap and dirt will be
left behind in the carpet once it's dry. It's the fact that rental
carpet shampooers typically only have a single two stage vaccuum motor,
and the fact that Rug Doctor and Easy Off tell you to use too much soap,
that results in them leaving too much soapy soiled water behind in the
carpet, and that sticky soap film remaining in the carpet when it's dry.
It's that residual soap that makes the carpet get dirty faster, and if
I was a suspicious person, I'd say that both Rug Doctor and Easy Off are
intentionally misleading people to use too much soap when cleaning their
carpet SO THAT their carpets get dirty faster and the only effective way
of getting that dirt out is to rent a carpet shampoo'er again. And,
that's not even accounting for people's tendency to use twice as much
soap as recommended to ge the carpet "twice as clean".

People can decide for themselves if they agree with me or not, but I
believe there's a scam going on here.
I often do an intermediate or final run with vinegar in the water -
and on wool carpet, a once over with a bit of fabric softener in it.
Gets the soap scum out fairly effectively.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2012 12:16:08 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Tim Watts wrote:

If moisture IS present, you install a "vapor barrier' - essentially
plastic film - before installing the laminate underlayment then the
actual flooring.

If there is NO moisture found after the test, you can dispense with
the vapor barrier, although it certainly won't hurt to have one
anyway.

Agree - the cost of a sheet of plastic is peanuts in the grand scheme.

I don't think it's EXACTLY peanuts. Vapor barrier material may be as low as
five cents/sq ft (impregnated paper) up to, if it includes cushioning
underlayment, up to $0.90/sq ft.

Note there is NO difference between a vinyl vapor barrier and 6 mil
contractor trash bags. With the latter, you'll do a bit more cutting and
taping. That's all.

Or you can use roofing felt, which is probably the easiest to install and
pretty cheap ($0.11/sq ft from HD).

Roofing felt is NOT a vapour barrier - by design.

I just thought I'd post this:

It's the label from ChemSpec "Formula 77" carpet shampoo soap, which is one of the more popular carpet shampooing soaps amongst professional carpet cleaning contractors in my area.

Liquid Formula 77

If you read the text under "Directions", it says to mix 2 fluid ounces of the stuff with 5 gallons of water. ChemSpec is a US Company headquartered in Baltimore, so those are US fluid ounces and US gallons. If you go to any Janitorial Supply store where carpet cleaning contractors buy their supplies and ask to read the label on the carpet cleaning soap(s) they sell, you'll find that dilution ratio is typical.

I couldn't find the RugDoctor mixing instructions in Imperial units online, but I managed to get them in metric from this British web site:

Carpet Cleaner Detergent | Rug Doctor

...which says to mix 150 ml of the Rug Doctor soap with 9 liters of water. Or, 5.07 US fluid ounces of soap per 2.38 US gallons of water.

That works out to 10.65 US fluid ounces of Rugdoctor soap per 5 US gallons of solution tank water.

Not only are you putting 5 times as much soap into your carpet, but the weaker suction of the rented Rugdoctor shampoo'er compared to a commercial machine means there's gonna be MORE THAN 5 times as much soap remaining behind in the carpet as it dries.

That's why, if you're renting a carpet shampoo'er, you need to do a final pass with just water in the solution tank to get all that extra soap out of the carpet.
If you don't, dirt will stick to the residual soap film on the carpet pile, making the carpet get dirtier faster, and vaccuuming won't be nearly as effective at removing that dirt.

Sorry, but for a company that rents carpet shampoo'ers to be giving the advice it does to it's customers, that doesn't pass the smell test with me. It very much increases the liklihood that once a customer has followed Rug Doctor's directions, that customer will have to keep on renting carpet shampoo'ers to keep their carpets looking clean. And that smells too much like a scam for my liking.

I tell people to use 2 fluid ounces of any good general purpose detergent, like Mr. Clean or Fantastik, per 5 gallons of water in their rented carpet shampoo'er. That way they don't have to pay for way more carpet cleaning soap than they need either. I used ChemSpec Formula 77 in my building for years until I decided just to try Mr. Clean. The water in the recovery tank was just as dirty using Mr. Clean as Formula 77. That means they both removed about the same amount of dirt. So, why pay $27 per gallon for carpet shampoo when most people have a gallon of Mr. Clean or Fantastik kicking around, or know someone who does.

On Wednesday, Nove


It's a personal thing. However, I much prefer solid floors, meaning

tile, linoleum, or wood. Carpeting is too much trouble to clean and

maintain, and it builds up dirt that can cause problems for people with

respiratory problems, no matter how much you clean it.

A throw rug can be out over hardwood, yet it can be taken outdoors in

warm weather and be hosed down, and can be replaced without an

installer. The only bad thing about throw rugs is that they like to get

bunched up and slide around, which can trip people. I have heard they

sell some sort of velcro fastners to help with that problem, but I'm not

sure where to buy them.

If you spill beer and **** on the floor get wood or laminated.
Throw rugs need duct tape to hold them in place. Or you can buy a roll of carpet grippers and cut to size. Naw duct tape is much cheaper.

US Judges are the enemy wrote:
On Wednesday, Nove


It's a personal thing. However, I much prefer solid floors, meaning

tile, linoleum, or wood. Carpeting is too much trouble to clean and

maintain, and it builds up dirt that can cause problems for people with

respiratory problems, no matter how much you clean it.

A throw rug can be out over hardwood, yet it can be taken outdoors in

warm weather and be hosed down, and can be replaced without an

installer. The only bad thing about throw rugs is that they like to get

bunched up and slide around, which can trip people. I have heard they

sell some sort of velcro fastners to help with that problem, but I'm not

sure where to buy them.

If you spill beer and **** on the floor get wood or laminated.
Throw rugs need duct tape to hold them in place. Or you can buy a roll of
carpet grippers and cut to size. Naw duct tape is much cheaper.

Old duct tape can be removed with WD-40.

Greg