Awl --

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.
In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics (like
benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the point is, gas
is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much, without
gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters. Mebbe it's
better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of old
oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a gasoline
car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas, and the car runs
fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup there in
a full-ish tank?
--
EA

Existential Angst wrote:

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.

Depends on the cleaner. Some of them have other solvents like xylene,
and some of them have detergents. The Lucas stuff appears to be almost
entirely surfactants with some kerosene to keep them flowing, and it seems
to work well.

In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics (like
benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the point is, gas
is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

Precisely.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much, without
gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters. Mebbe it's
better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

It depends how much stuff it is. If anything, one of the advantages of modern
cars over the lawnmower is that cars have feedback control of mixture today.
You won't burn your valves running too lean, the way you might with a small
engine with a carb.

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of old
oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a gasoline
car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas, and the car runs
fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup there in
a full-ish tank?

In Mexico, I ran my BMW E28 on Pemex Verde when there wasn't anything else
available and it ran the thing as rich as it could and retarded the timing
like mad but it didn't seem to do any permanent damage.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

On 11/5/2012 1:52 PM, Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --
....

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much, without
gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters. Mebbe it's
better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of old
oil, any combustible really.
....

Biggest problems w/ modern vehicles (injected w/ catalytic converters
and OBD computers, basically) that I can see otomh are

a) contaminated/used oil w/ particulates to plug inline filters and
perhaps injectors and

b) impurities that are harmful to the catalytic material (Pt) in the
converter. Pb is the probably the most but it's very unlikely to find
leaded gas any longer (but perhaps some of the non-fuel items or for old
2-cycle I don't know?). Other specific metals I know of that aren't
good include Zn, Mn, Ph which exist or existed in at least some engine
cleaners before. Of course, Si is another which is why it is bad
when/if lose a head gasket on converter as well as the other nasties
that does because it is common in antifreezes...

All in all, I'd tend to find something else to do with most of it,
myself even though in small enough amounts and infrequently enough it's
not likely to do serious damage I figure why take a chance on a sizable
investment for the cost of a little aggravation? (Of course, it's a lot
easier to get rid of stuff on 2000 A and large gravel driveways than on
a city lot w/ everything paved over or lawn... )

--

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.
In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics
(like benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the
point is, gas is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much,
without gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic
converters. Mebbe it's better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts
of old oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a
gasoline car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas,
and the car runs fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup
there in a full-ish tank?

Why would you want to do so?

To dispose of left-over petroleum products, you could just dump 'em down the
storm sewer. They will lubricate the walls and help prevent flooding.

On 11/5/2012 5:26 PM, HeyBub wrote:
....

To dispose of left-over petroleum products, you could just dump 'em down the
storm sewer. They will lubricate the walls and help prevent flooding.

That's about as bad as dumping them down the sanitary sewer (and the two
join in some locations)...

Better than that would be to simply dump in a corner of the yard
somewhere than putting them directly into the water system, small
amounts though they be...

--

HeyBub wrote:

To dispose of left-over petroleum products, you could just dump 'em down the
storm sewer. They will lubricate the walls and help prevent flooding.

I just dump gas on the driveway and let it evaporate.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 11/5/2012 5:26 PM, HeyBub wrote:
...

To dispose of left-over petroleum products, you could just dump 'em down
the
storm sewer. They will lubricate the walls and help prevent flooding.

That's about as bad as dumping them down the sanitary sewer (and the two
join in some locations)...

Better than that would be to simply dump in a corner of the yard somewhere
than putting them directly into the water system, small amounts though
they be...

Larger towns have hazardous waste disposal sites. Not sure what is, is not
covered, but things like acids, herbicides/insecticides are def'ly covered.
And of course most garages take used oil, at least around here.

And old diesel chariot would proly be the best, uh, vehicle for disposal. I
was more thinking along the lines of recovering the *energy value* of this
stuff..... every mickle makes a muckle.... every fickle....
--
EA



--

Gunner wrote:

Used motor oil can be used to heat ones shop nicely


So can old candles or bulk wax. We used to make stoves out of large
coffee cans, rolled up cardboard & wax. Punch holes arounf d the side,
about two inches above the cardboard & wax, and more right near the
top. Then light it & cook in cast iron on the top.

small quanties of waste oil dumped in the ground are digested by
natural occuring bacteria......

perfectly safe done perodically in gallon quanties and under. I
excavated my dump area after years of using the place for oil change
dumping....

Not a trace of oil remained...

This is a realtive of the bacteria that digeste rubber tire wear along
roads

On Mon, 05 Nov 2012 17:45:23 -0600, dpb wrote:

On 11/5/2012 5:26 PM, HeyBub wrote:
...

To dispose of left-over petroleum products, you could just dump 'em down the
storm sewer. They will lubricate the walls and help prevent flooding.

That's about as bad as dumping them down the sanitary sewer (and the two
join in some locations)...

Better than that would be to simply dump in a corner of the yard
somewhere than putting them directly into the water system, small
amounts though they be...
Take them to your local hazardous waste disposal site. Or drop them
off at your local garage for recycling.

On Nov 5, 10:52*pm, "Existential Angst" wrote:

So the Q is: *what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much, without
gumming up the works? *Including all these catalytic converters. *Mebbe it's
better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??


OT:
it's common to use kerosene and gasoline as diesel "additives" to keep
diesel liquid
at low temps. Which obviously does not help the longevity of diesel
engine
(hello Jim Beam)
Considering that kind of [ab]use I do not picture a used diesel car in
my future :-))))))

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.
In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics (like
benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the point is, gas
is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much, without
gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters. Mebbe it's
better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of old
oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a gasoline
car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas, and the car runs
fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup there in
a full-ish tank?

Most cleaners are NOT kerosene. They do contain some light oils to keep
the stuff freely flowing and lubricate the injectors but most of them
are simple high detergent items. As far as alcohols, YEP they will mix
with fuels, however it will separate out if left alone for a while.
This is especially true of mixed fuels like used in 2 strokes. That is
also why you should shake the can well before using stored fuels.

If you want to find out how to ruin O2 sensors and converters go for it.
It doesn't take much oil or other chemicals to screw them up.

Since you are in the salvage business and probably will have some
quantities of used oils, mixes and such. Why not at least get some
benefit from it. Install a waste oil furnace and use the stuff to heat
part of your building. The one I have will burn pretty much any
oil/kerosene/diesel/gear oil that you can pump into it. You have to
watch out for water/antifreeze or other non-combustibles. The easy way
is to make a separator unit, the one I built is nothing more than two
plastic drums with 4 different taps. You dump the unknown oil in it and
let everything settle. Once the stuff has settled into layers it's easy
to draw off the ones you can use.


--
Steve W.

"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.
In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics (like
benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the point is,
gas is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much,
without gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters.
Mebbe it's better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of
old oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a gasoline
car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas, and the car
runs fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup there
in a full-ish tank?

Most cleaners are NOT kerosene. They do contain some light oils to keep
the stuff freely flowing and lubricate the injectors but most of them are
simple high detergent items.

Hmmm, you are proly correct about the one I am using (up) now, but I seem to
recall one that was primarily kerosene, altho I wouldn't bet the farm on
that either. Do these kinds of labels adhere to the food label strat, where
ingredients are listed in order?


As far as alcohols, YEP they will mix
with fuels, however it will separate out if left alone for a while.
This is especially true of mixed fuels like used in 2 strokes. That is
also why you should shake the can well before using stored fuels.

If you want to find out how to ruin O2 sensors and converters go for it.
It doesn't take much oil or other chemicals to screw them up.

Yeah, my conspiratorial li'l mind sees a pattern, where it is hard to
finagle the system, precisely cuz things are now so g-d complex. I'm sure
my Datsun 510 could burn every oz of scrap oil in my shop (in some
dilution).... AND I'm pretty sure it got the mpg's of a Prius....
Even the inverter-as-backup-genset seems a bust, altho I will experiment
more with that, partic to see if 2000-2500 rpm idles are truly nec.


Since you are in the salvage business and probably will have some
quantities of used oils, mixes and such. Why not at least get some benefit
from it. Install a waste oil furnace and use the stuff to heat part of
your building. The one I have will burn pretty much any
oil/kerosene/diesel/gear oil that you can pump into it. You have to watch
out for water/antifreeze or other non-combustibles. The easy way is to
make a separator unit, the one I built is nothing more than two plastic
drums with 4 different taps. You dump the unknown oil in it and let
everything settle. Once the stuff has settled into layers it's easy to
draw off the ones you can use.

Not salvage, ****ty li'l machine shop, emphasis on little, next emphasis on
****ty.....
I bought two ventless gas heaters, and pert near asphyxiated on those....
grrrreat heat, but unbreathable air quality.
I could only imagine burning waste oil.

I was hoping that, IF an engine could tolerate kerosene (via fuel injector
cleaners), that it might tolerate other stuff as well. But you are saying
that "if" may be incorrect.
BUT, still and all, if not kerosene, it's burning sumpn ELSE, right? But,
which may have been tested to be OK in engines.... but then mebbe not
either!!
--
EA






--
Steve W.

Existential Angst wrote:
"Steve W." wrote in message
...
Existential Angst wrote:
Awl --

I recently became aware that fuel injector cleaner is basically
kerosene..... !! It's also clear that alcohol is freely mixible in
gasoline.
In fact, http://monographs.iarc.fr/ENG/Monogr...5/mono45-8.pdf
indicates a wide variety of stuff in gasoline, including aromatics (like
benzene). The tables don't seem entirely consistent, but the point is,
gas is a bit of a heterogeneous mix.

So the Q is: what can one "dump" into one's gastank, and how much,
without gumming up the works? Including all these catalytic converters.
Mebbe it's better to dump stuff in, say, the lawnmower??

And what do I mean by "stuff"?
Unknown mixes of 2-stroke gas, kerosene, paint thinner, small amounts of
old oil, any combustible really.
You can put quite a bit of fuel injector cleaner (kerosene) in a gasoline
car, on the order of a pint to just a few gallons of gas, and the car
runs fine.
But I'm not talking about a deluge of stuff, just a cup here, a cup there
in a full-ish tank?
Most cleaners are NOT kerosene. They do contain some light oils to keep
the stuff freely flowing and lubricate the injectors but most of them are
simple high detergent items.

Hmmm, you are proly correct about the one I am using (up) now, but I seem to
recall one that was primarily kerosene, altho I wouldn't bet the farm on
that either. Do these kinds of labels adhere to the food label strat, where
ingredients are listed in order?

Not usually. You can usually pull up the MSDS though.



As far as alcohols, YEP they will mix
with fuels, however it will separate out if left alone for a while.
This is especially true of mixed fuels like used in 2 strokes. That is
also why you should shake the can well before using stored fuels.

If you want to find out how to ruin O2 sensors and converters go for it.
It doesn't take much oil or other chemicals to screw them up.

Yeah, my conspiratorial li'l mind sees a pattern, where it is hard to
finagle the system, precisely cuz things are now so g-d complex. I'm sure
my Datsun 510 could burn every oz of scrap oil in my shop (in some
dilution).... AND I'm pretty sure it got the mpg's of a Prius....
Even the inverter-as-backup-genset seems a bust, altho I will experiment
more with that, partic to see if 2000-2500 rpm idles are truly nec.

Since you are in the salvage business and probably will have some
quantities of used oils, mixes and such. Why not at least get some benefit
from it. Install a waste oil furnace and use the stuff to heat part of
your building. The one I have will burn pretty much any
oil/kerosene/diesel/gear oil that you can pump into it. You have to watch
out for water/antifreeze or other non-combustibles. The easy way is to
make a separator unit, the one I built is nothing more than two plastic
drums with 4 different taps. You dump the unknown oil in it and let
everything settle. Once the stuff has settled into layers it's easy to
draw off the ones you can use.

Not salvage, ****ty li'l machine shop, emphasis on little, next emphasis on
****ty.....
I bought two ventless gas heaters, and pert near asphyxiated on those....
grrrreat heat, but unbreathable air quality.
I could only imagine burning waste oil.


The waste oil units burn CLEAN. They install just like a normal furnace.
Vent stack and external air combustion.



I was hoping that, IF an engine could tolerate kerosene (via fuel injector
cleaners), that it might tolerate other stuff as well. But you are saying
that "if" may be incorrect.


The engine itself might. BUT the control items won't. O2 sensors get
contaminated very easy.


BUT, still and all, if not kerosene, it's burning sumpn ELSE, right? But,
which may have been tested to be OK in engines.... but then mebbe not
either!!


--
Steve W.