On 10/11/2012 3:25 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
....

Do you run the tank empty? Nearly? That's *really* bad for fuel pumps.

Not really; they sit in a canister that holds fuel around the motor for
cooling as the tank level falls...it's still full even when it ceases to
pick up out of the tank.

You'd have to never let the tank get below between half to
three-quarters to have fuel level around it on the PU I just replaced
the tank on I noticed...I expect most are about the same.

---

On Oct 11, 11:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:17:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”

I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.
The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least

stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.

It is definitely progress.

I'd like to know what specifically these folks think all these "fancy
features"
are that are taking up the space under the HOOD. Somehow I think
they probably don't even work on cars or know what is there. In my
experience, the vast majority of the tight space conditions under the
hood of today's cars comes from:

A - Front wheel drive

B - Eqpt needed to meet EPA clean air reqts, eg charcoal
canister for vapor recovery, oil traps for PCV, related hoses, various
engine sensors and related wiring, air injection pumps, etc.
You could maybe include catalytic converter too, but for the most
part that is really after the engine compartment.

C - Need to reduce car dimensions to reduce weight for
fuel economy while at the same time trying to maintain
as much space in the cabin as possible. Add to that the
need to streamline the shape of the front end, hood, etc
for aerodynamics, something that no one gave a rat's ass
about in 99% of the cars in the 70s.

I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood. About the only thing I can think of that is relatively
new in that regard would be ABS breaking. AC takes up
a good bit of space, but that has been around since the
60s and I think few would consider it a "fancy feature".
Fancy features in the cabin? Yes. But I just don't see
it in the engine compartment.

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.




You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.



Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.




Years ago there were service stations and garages on every other
corner - and the service bays were busy most of the time. Today, with
a whole lot more cars on the road, there are a lot fewer garages and
service stations - and you can fire a cannon through most of them half
the time without hitting anyone or anything.

That part I'm not so sure about. All the complexity has added
more things that can fail. And it has also gotten harder for the
DIY guy to do many repairs. But all in all, it's a trade off that I
thjnk we all agree is a good thing. I sure wouldn't want say
a Dodge from the 1970s compared to what you get today.

On 10/12/2012 9:08 AM, wrote:
On Oct 11, 11:05 pm, wrote:
....

Years ago there were service stations and garages on every other
corner - and the service bays were busy most of the time. Today, with
a whole lot more cars on the road, there are a lot fewer garages and
service stations - and you can fire a cannon through most of them half
the time without hitting anyone or anything.

That part I'm not so sure about. All the complexity has added
more things that can fail. And it has also gotten harder for the
DIY guy to do many repairs. But all in all, it's a trade off that I
thjnk we all agree is a good thing. I sure wouldn't want say
a Dodge from the 1970s compared to what you get today.

I think he's pretty accurate from observation here...the dealer shops
here _are_ pretty much deserted these days around here. There are a
couple of independents that are busy it seems, but much of what they do
is the routine stuff like brakes, etc., that doesn't require all the
diagnostic equipment and/or specialty tools the dealer garage must have
for the complex stuff...

I had a front hub start howling on the old LeSabre (approaching 200k;
that would have been almost unheard of 30 yr ago) and wasn't able w/ my
old ears to isolate where the noise was actually coming from. Just
drove in to the shop unannounced and a mechanic came and took a ride and
pulled it into a bay when we came back and was done by evening. Even 15
yr ago that would have required an appointment for sometime the next
week at best, probably.

In addition, there are multiple empty bays in the shop w/ no mechanics
filling the slots that used to be all occupied. That's so for all three
manufacturers' shops here--Ford, GM, Chrysler so it's not just a single
dealership slipping thing; I think it is reflective that mechanicals are
just better than used to be. Now, that gets made up for in some regards
by it's a heckuva lot more expensive per repair in general I think...
--but, overall, I agree I think it's a win.

I know the big farm work trucks are _much_ more reliable and require far
less routine maintenance than before. Used to be we'd have to stop and
change oil at least once if not twice during harvest because service
intervals were so short--now they go thru the entire season on one.

--

" wrote:

-snip a bunch that I totally agree with-
I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood.
-snip some more-

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.






You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.

I changed the plugs on my 95 Taurus at 120K -- did the 2000 Impala at
100k because I had the time and was curious. Neither set looked
like it needed changing-- and I noticed nothing different in operation
or economy.




Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.

Corrosion that shows, anyway. My 11 yr old Impala [new York
winters- rarely garaged- 135K miles] has a perfect body -- but the
undercarriage has some rot. I'm concerned about the radiator
bracket- and my mechanic is eyeing some rot in the rear 1/2. A
bracket for the e-brake cable just disintegrated last month.

The 2 things that we used to check to see if odometers had been turned
back - wear on the pedals and worn out seats- are perfect. Not a
stitch is broken on the leather drivers side bucket. [even the
heater still works fine]

It fits my ass perfectly, too-- I'm going to miss this one when it
dies-
[and to the OP I haven't replaced a fuel pump since my 1966 Dart- I've
driven a Taurus, a Dodge Reliant and an Impala and a VW well over 120K
each since then]

Jim

In article , dpb wrote:

In addition, there are multiple empty bays in the shop w/ no mechanics
filling the slots that used to be all occupied. That's so for all three
manufacturers' shops here--Ford, GM, Chrysler so it's not just a single
dealership slipping thing; I think it is reflective that mechanicals are
just better than used to be.

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

My current mechanic, and the guy I used for years before him, are sole
proprietors working in small, low-rent garages hidden away where you'd
never just stumble upon them. No advertising, no signs, no secretaries
to pay. Plumber and electrician the same: just a guy and a truck. This
is the business model that works the best, IMO. I get outstanding work
at reasonable rates.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:18:13 +0000, nestork
wrote:


Vic Smith;2942073 Wrote:
An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers don't
see it that way.

Which begs the blindingly obvious question...

If Toyota engineers thought it was a good idea,
and I think it's a good idea,
and you think it's a good idea,
then why the he11 doesn't Detroit think it's a good idea?


They do, but it add $1.25 to the cost of a car so they don't do it.

Or maybe it adds $1m to their liability premiums, encouraging consumers
to mess around with volatile gasoline by providing them ready access.

I like the cruise control. And the power windows are neat, able to open a
window on the other side, for some ventilation.

What happened with the tire pressure sensors? Did they go bad, or does she
not know how to keep tire pressure maintained?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smitty Two" wrote in message news:notpublicinfo-

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I like the cruise control. And the power windows are neat, able to open a
window on the other side, for some ventilation.

What happened with the tire pressure sensors? Did they go bad, or does she
not know how to keep tire pressure maintained?

The sensors either go bad, or the batteries in them die, or the tire
shop ****s them up when they change a tire, etc. The whole concept is
idiotic. Anyone who can't check his own tires once in a while should
just be taken out and shot.


Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message news:notpublicinfo-

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

Miss Manners thanks you for
the gentle, and softly spoken
****ing reply.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus (Cover your eyes, Big J!
www.lds.org
..

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:


What happened with the tire pressure sensors? Did they go bad, or does she
not know how to keep tire pressure maintained?

The sensors either go bad, or the batteries in them die,
or the tire shop ****s them up when they change a tire,
etc. The whole concept is idiotic. Anyone who can't
check his own tires once in a while should just be taken
out and shot.

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

Miss Manners thanks you for
the gentle, and softly spoken
****ing reply.


Mr. Politeness Man thanks you for bottom-posting.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message news:notpublicinfo-
The sensors either go bad, or the batteries in them die, or the tire
shop ****s them up when they change a tire, etc. The whole concept is
idiotic. Anyone who can't check his own tires once in a while should
just be taken out and shot.


I bought a new 2007 Tacoma and about a year ago one of the tire sensors went
bad. As the truck passes the safety inspection with a bad sensor, I refuse
to pay about $ 60 to have the thing replaced. I lived with out them for
over 40 years and do not need them now.
Too bad that for all the money they cost that they do not give out
individual readout for each tire and how much pressure you actually have.
Just one warning light for the whole system.

On 10/12/2012 10:28 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
....

The sensors either go bad, or the batteries in them die, or the tire
shop ****s them up when they change a tire, etc. The whole concept is
idiotic. Anyone who can't check his own tires once in a while should
just be taken out and shot.
....

Agree to a certain extent they're an affectation but for many who don't
pay sufficient attention otherwise they're probably _a_good_thing_ (tm)
to try to prevent more serious problems like blowouts at highway speeds.

I've had at least four vehicles (and perhaps others I don't recall on)
with them so far and have yet to have them be a maintenance problem.

If a tire shop doesn't know how to handle them correctly by now you need
another tire shop.

--

On 10/12/2012 11:43 AM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
....

Too bad that for all the money they cost that they do not give out
individual readout for each tire and how much pressure you actually have.
Just one warning light for the whole system.

That's certainly not the case on GM vehicles--accurate individual
readings are the norm and as noted above I've yet to have any of them be
a maintenance item after probably 10 years since first vehicle so
equipped...

--

On 10/12/2012 9:34 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
....

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.
....

And the split-barrel Holley w/ the transfer tubes and lead plugs that
leaked after every long road trip after being hot for many hours at a
time...

--

On 10/12/2012 11:56 AM, dpb wrote:
....

And the split-barrel Holley w/ the transfer tubes and lead plugs that
leaked after every long road trip after being hot for many hours at a
time...

Oops, sorry--split-_bowl_ not barrel...

--

On 10/11/2012 10:14 PM, wrote:
....

... On the 1928 Chevy it was under the floorboards....

The '28 Chevy (truck) didn't have a battery from factory--granddad did
add starter by the time I was beginning to drive--it's actually what
learned on. The gas tank was the seat structure w/ just a pad on top
and a rear backrest; I can't think where the battery was actually
mounted altho it may have been under the floorboard. I'm still mad at
Dad for having sold it while brother and I were off at uni and he's been
gone over 10 yr now...

The Chevy trucks were under driver's side floorboard (as was the brake
master cylinder as well) at least thru early 50s.

The battery on the Chrysler 300M was hidden in front of the right front
wheel behind an access panel in the front inner fender. By service
manual required removing wheel altho I managed w/o. _NOT_ a good design
decision, either. We're on several miles of dirt road and that was the
absolute worst "mudding" vehicle I've ever tried to get to/from town
with after a rain...it was a great interstate long distance vehicle that
I got for the transition period from E TN to W KS and served that
purpose well for the time were still making very frequent trips back and
forth. But, it couldn't live up to being a farm car even as a second
vehicle so is now an Enclave w/ the AWD and much higher road clearance.
Unfortunately, it's hardly rained since got it so haven't had much
opportunity to really test its mettle...

--

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:08:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:55:23 -0400, wrote:


I've replaced quite a few for customers in the past - most of them too
darn cheap to replace fuel filters.


I don't recall seeing fuel filter replacement as a required service in
the manual. I'm not use where they are these days either, but they
are not easily accessed like days of old.

The tank in my '91 Regal rusted out on top (sand and salt) and had to
be replaced. The shop replaced the filter at that time because they
had to remove it anyway.

On vehicles that still use a return system to control fuel pressure a
plugged filter will increase the strain on the pump by a factor of up
to 5 or more. Deadhead systems cannot build excessive pump pressure.

If a system is designed to run 45 PSI and 100 GPH, and it ends up
running 120psi and 20GPH, something is going to give. Usually the
pump. (numbers may not be 100% accurate, but the principal is .)

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:34:00 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

" wrote:

-snip a bunch that I totally agree with-
I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood.
-snip some more-

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.






You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.

I changed the plugs on my 95 Taurus at 120K -- did the 2000 Impala at
100k because I had the time and was curious. Neither set looked
like it needed changing-- and I noticed nothing different in operation
or economy.




Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.

Corrosion that shows, anyway. My 11 yr old Impala [new York
winters- rarely garaged- 135K miles] has a perfect body -- but the
undercarriage has some rot. I'm concerned about the radiator
bracket- and my mechanic is eyeing some rot in the rear 1/2. A
bracket for the e-brake cable just disintegrated last month.

The 2 things that we used to check to see if odometers had been turned
back - wear on the pedals and worn out seats- are perfect. Not a
stitch is broken on the leather drivers side bucket. [even the
heater still works fine]

It fits my ass perfectly, too-- I'm going to miss this one when it
dies-
[and to the OP I haven't replaced a fuel pump since my 1966 Dart- I've
driven a Taurus, a Dodge Reliant and an Impala and a VW well over 120K
each since then]

Jim
My 1996 Ranger, with 307000km has no wear on the pedal rubbers or
floormats, and the seats are like new. If someone had cranked the ODO
bact to 37000, it would be believeable - and it is on it's second set
of tires, and original rear brakes and exhaust. Original starter and
alternator as well.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:




It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.





WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

Oh, one thing of beauty is the rear view camera. They should be on
every car.

The 274 HP turbo engine makes it fun to drive too!

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:




It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

Oh, one thing of beauty is the rear view camera. They should be on
every car.

They will be, soon enough.

The 274 HP turbo engine makes it fun to drive too!

Barely enough to put around in. ;-)

On 10/12/2012 9:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty
wrote:
....

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

I don't know where but the shop labor rates between the independents and
the dealers around here aren't all that much different...

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.
....

The other thing they have is all the specialty tools and service
bulletins and any service/warranty work is handled.

While the ordinary is doable most any place, I tried using a couple of
the independent shops around and decided it wasn't saving any of any
magnitude comparatively. Now, the guy who works weekends under the
shade tree might be a little cheaper...

--

wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

Hi.
Do you have a habit of filling up when fuel tank is near empty? If so
the answer is there. I never let tank go below quarter full. Never had a
failed fuel pump in the past 20 years.

n
every car.

The 274 HP turbo engine makes it fun to drive too!
Hmmm,
274 HP at what RPM?M My kids, hot rod'd Subaru WRX Sti puts out over 400
Horses. Eats set of tires every year. Fun to drive.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:55:05 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/12/2012 9:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty
wrote:
...

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

I don't know where but the shop labor rates between the independents and
the dealers around here aren't all that much different...

I've found that, too, but the independent will almost always come in at half
the final cost, or less. I've found they're much more willing to eat the
problem if they didn't fix it the first time, too. The last dealer I went to
did have the decency to tell me to go to an independent for one job. They
also replaced a gas tank on a car, using a junk tank (that I bought). A new
tank was $1,500, which they thought was highway robbery. They couldn't buy
junk parts but they could put in a part I brought in. I'm not down on
dealers, at all.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.
...

The other thing they have is all the specialty tools and service
bulletins and any service/warranty work is handled.

While the ordinary is doable most any place, I tried using a couple of
the independent shops around and decided it wasn't saving any of any
magnitude comparatively. Now, the guy who works weekends under the
shade tree might be a little cheaper...

I've found the opposite. I go to the dealer for some stuff but less and less,
once I get to know the independent. I gave up on the dealer completely in the
city we just moved from. The independent turned out to be really good and far
more convenient (across the street from my wife's PPoE).

Tony Hwang wrote:
wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

Hi.
Do you have a habit of filling up when fuel tank is near empty? If so the
answer is there. I never let tank go below quarter full. Never had a
failed fuel pump in the past 20 years.

I had one replaced in a 93 Dakota around 115k miles. You could tell the
brushes were intermittent. Then it became weak showing going up hills. I
was always under the assumption they go in that general milage frame. Darn
gas gauge went before that, but new pump fixed that too.

Greg

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:31:53 -0500, wrote:

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

Untril a year ago I had a '95 Chrysler LeBaron with fuel injection for
the previous 9 years and never had a problem with the fuel pump. (one
time after a 6 hour drive with no stop for the last 2 or 3 hours, the
pump sounded so loud I was sure it was dying, but it was still working
3 years later, so I guess it was just ringing in my ears from road
noise.)

Now I have a 2000 Toyota with FI and haven't had trouble.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:09:32 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:



wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

Hi.
Do you have a habit of filling up when fuel tank is near empty? If so
the answer is there. I never let tank go below quarter full. Never had a
failed fuel pump in the past 20 years.

OTOH- I let it get as low as I dare- and I haven't had any problems
either-- Last 20 years were a dodge Reliant, a ford Taurus and a Chevy
Impala. [and my wife had a couple Escorts and an old VW in those
years--and she's worse than me]

Someone mentioned 'luck' earlier & I tend to agree.

Jim

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:18:37 -0600, Tony Hwang
wrote:

n
every car.

The 274 HP turbo engine makes it fun to drive too!
Hmmm,
274 HP at what RPM?M My kids, hot rod'd Subaru WRX Sti puts out over 400
Horses. Eats set of tires every year. Fun to drive.


Not sure of the spec, but it red lines at 6000. It can do 0 - 60 in
5.8 seconds. Not bad for a family sedan. Top speed is around 140 but
I've not gone past 110 on this one so far. It is a Hyundai Sonata
Limited.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:17:19 -0400, "
wrote:




I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.


Never ha d a problem. Won't have a car without it. Very nice feature
on a cold morning. I put the seat heater on when I park the car at
night so it is comfy in five minutes or so.

On Oct 12, 10:53*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:



It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.


Also for many repairs on the cars more advanced systems,
the dealer has computer eqpt that reads out and diagnosis
more malfunctions that is specific to those cars. The independent
shop has the basic eqpt that can read out engine codes for
example, but the ones dealers have can read out info down
to systems like the AC.

Around here, NJ, there used to be a substantial difference
in labor rates that made it advantageous for me to go to
a local foreign car place that was good instead of the MB
dealer. The place was good, but now it's gotten to the
point that their labor rates are so close to the dealer that
I'm not sure it's worth it. And while I've had them save me
money in the past by using non MB parts, recently a
friend took his BMW their and all the parts on the bill
were listed by BMW part # and had prices about the
same as the dealer. So, I've kind of come to the conclusion
that at least with this shop, you might as well take it to
the stealership because it's going to be almost the same
price and presumably the stealership mechanics see
more of the same car, same problems, better computer
diagnostics, training, etc. Which could allow them to
fix it faster, better, etc.

There are probably other shops here with better rates,
but it's always hard to find ones that are good, that you
trust, etc. The one mentioned above was so successful
they expanded, have plenty of business and adjusted their
rates accordingly. I don't know what rates you guys are
seeing, but last time I was at BMW here in NJ they are
at $150/hr.

On Oct 12, 11:17*pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. *They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. *Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. *They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". *Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. *Add remote start too!. *With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. *I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. *Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.


It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

On Oct 12, 4:30*pm, wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:08:58 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 22:55:23 -0400, wrote:

I've replaced quite a few for customers in the past - most of them too
darn cheap to replace fuel filters.

I don't recall seeing fuel filter replacement as a required service in
the manual. *I'm not use where they are these days either, but they
are not easily accessed like days of old.

The tank in my '91 Regal rusted out on top (sand and salt) and had to
be replaced. The shop replaced the filter at that time because they
had to remove it anyway.

On vehicles that still use a return system to control fuel pressure a
plugged filter will increase the strain on the pump by a factor of up
to 5 or more. Deadhead systems cannot build excessive pump pressure.

If a system is designed to run 45 PSI and 100 GPH, and it ends up
running 120psi and 20GPH, something is going to give. *Usually the
pump. (numbers may not be 100% accurate, but the principal is .)

45PSI and 100 GPH would be one hell of car. How many
HP engine is that? 10,000?

On Oct 13, 8:06*am, "
wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:17*pm, "





wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. *They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. *Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. *They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". *Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. *Add remote start too!. *With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. *I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. *Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

i replace my vehicles batteries around every 3 years....... I used to
have alternator failures till a alternator rebuild speciality shop
owner said the higher load from bad batteries damage alternators.

in the last 20 years since his advice only one alternator failure.....
from bad bearings

On Oct 13, 8:42*am, bob haller wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:06*am, "
wrote:





On Oct 12, 11:17*pm, "

wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. *They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. *Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. *They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". *Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. *Add remote start too!. *With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. *I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. *Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

i replace my vehicles batteries around every 3 years....... I used to
have alternator failures till a alternator rebuild speciality shop
owner said the higher load from bad batteries damage alternators.

in the last 20 years since his advice only one alternator failure.....
from bad bearings- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Interesting. Same friend that I mentioned previously with
the BMW had it suddenly die on a toll road at night. Went
from running fine to all kinds of warnings and then kaput
in just a mile. It was the alternator and a bad battery. Like
you say, the failing battery may have contributed to the
alternator's failure.

On 10/12/2012 10:53 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:




It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.





WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.


I wouldn't own a car without remote start. Other stuff is usability
enhancements. Why do stuff the way we used to when there are better ways.


Oh, one thing of beauty is the rear view camera. They should be on
every car.

The 274 HP turbo engine makes it fun to drive too!

On 10/13/2012 7:54 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 23:17:19 -0400, "
wrote:




I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.


Never ha d a problem. Won't have a car without it. Very nice feature
on a cold morning. I put the seat heater on when I park the car at
night so it is comfy in five minutes or so.


Exactly. The other goodness is that if the car is outside and the
windshield is covered with a layer of ice it will be either gone or
almost gone by the time you get in the car. Sure beats fussing with an
ice scraper for 10 minutes. One car we have even has a programmable
start on low temp feature.

And the bad idea because the battery gets weaker on an older car makes
no logical sense. The remote starter does the same thing as if you were
in the car and started it. If the battery isn't sufficient to use with a
remote starter it won't be magically better if you are sitting in the
car and engage the starter.

On 10/13/2012 8:06 AM, wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:17 pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.


It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

Agree on the first and thats what I do but what is the difference
between using the remote starter and manually starting the car? If the
battery is not fit for use with the remote starter it certainly won't
behave any differently if you start the car manually.

On 10/13/2012 8:42 AM, bob haller wrote:
On Oct 13, 8:06 am, "
wrote:
On Oct 12, 11:17 pm, "





wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

i replace my vehicles batteries around every 3 years....... I used to
have alternator failures till a alternator rebuild speciality shop
owner said the higher load from bad batteries damage alternators.

My last experience with a dead battery was that it started fine and then
a few hours later the battery was toast and unable to spin the starter.
Mechanic said the maintenance free batteries tend to fail that way
compared to the older batteries where you would notice the starter would
be less vigorous than usual and you would have a chance to change the
battery.


in the last 20 years since his advice only one alternator failure.....
from bad bearings

On Oct 13, 9:10*am, George wrote:
On 10/13/2012 8:06 AM, wrote:



On Oct 12, 11:17 pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. *They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. *Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. *They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". *Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. *Add remote start too!. *With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. *I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. *Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

Agree on the first and thats what I do but what is the difference
between using the remote starter and manually starting the car? If the
battery is not fit for use with the remote starter it certainly won't
behave any differently if you start the car manually.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's what I was wondering too. Maybe krw can explain.
Some things that come to mind are that if it's a really
dumb remote starter, I guess if the car won't start and
it just keeps cranking it could run down the battery or
burn up the starter. But you would think these widgets
would only try to start it for a brief period and if it doesn't
start, then give up.

On 10/13/2012 9:17 AM, wrote:
On Oct 13, 9:10 am, George wrote:
On 10/13/2012 8:06 AM, wrote:



On Oct 12, 11:17 pm, "
wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 22:53:36 -0400, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 08:05:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

Only advantage I'm aware of is the dealer mechanic has more
familiarity with that particular brand. That can be a plus if you have
a problem peculiar to a specific model or a recent service bulletin
has been issued.

I bought a new car a couple of months ago and the first oil change is
free so I took it in today. They gave me a price list and the regular
price for an oil change is only $29. Of course, they always try to
sell something else too. They gave me a coupon for $5 off the next
one so I may use them again.

I used to take my car back to the dealer for oil changes, $18.95 and they
rarely tried to "upsell". Sure, it's a loss-leader for them.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

I like and have all that stuff. Add remote start too!. With my new
car, I don't have to push buttons to change radio stations if I don't
want to. I can just push a button and give a command to dial the
phone, find a destination with the navigation.

I'll never have remote start again. Bad idea, once the car gets older and the
battery weaker.

It would seem there are two simple solutions to that.
Replace the battery every 5 years or so as part of preventative
maintenance and if the car gets to the point that it's so
unreliable that starting becomes an issue, then just don't
use the remote starter any more.

Agree on the first and thats what I do but what is the difference
between using the remote starter and manually starting the car? If the
battery is not fit for use with the remote starter it certainly won't
behave any differently if you start the car manually.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

That's what I was wondering too. Maybe krw can explain.
Some things that come to mind are that if it's a really
dumb remote starter, I guess if the car won't start and
it just keeps cranking it could run down the battery or
burn up the starter. But you would think these widgets
would only try to start it for a brief period and if it doesn't
start, then give up.


They all have standard logic that includes a time limit that the starter
can be energized and tach feedback to know when to disengage.