If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:31:53 -0500, wrote:

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.



In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.


Last fuel pump I recall replacing was on my '53 Mercury flathead back
around 1964 or so.

Over the years, often had carb problems, never had an injection
problem. BTW, if you change to a carburetor, you'll have to change
the fuel pump too as it required different pressure.

On 10/11/2012 4:31 AM, wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?




I give you a one on the troll-o-meter...

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.


*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck (Dodge
Ram Van). The mechanic told me it fried. They use a high speed pump and if
it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. At the time I was trying to
see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would go further and
further between gas refills. With so little gas in the tank, any bump or
pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the pump to lose fuel and
burn out. Now I never let the fuel gauge go below a quarter tank.

On Oct 11, 6:06*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. *The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. *If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. *(No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. *In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. *Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. *I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck (Dodge
Ram Van). *The mechanic told me it fried. *They use a high speed pump and if
it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. *At the time I was trying to
see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would go further and
further between gas refills. *With so little gas in the tank, any bump or
pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the pump to lose fuel and
burn out. *Now I never let the fuel gauge go below a quarter tank.

the in gas tank pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank

keep your tank mostly full will extend pump life.......

better to buy the expensive OEM pumps rather than the cheaper
aftermarket ones, they dont last as long.....

aftermarket for my dodge caravan 160 bucks

OEM 500 bucks for just the pump

but labor to change them costs a fortune........

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:05:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller wrote:

On Oct 11, 6:06*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. *The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. *If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. *(No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. *In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. *Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. *I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck (Dodge
Ram Van). *The mechanic told me it fried. *They use a high speed pump and if
it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. *At the time I was trying to
see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would go further and
further between gas refills. *With so little gas in the tank, any bump or
pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the pump to lose fuel and
burn out. *Now I never let the fuel gauge go below a quarter tank.

the in gas tank pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank

s/cooled/lubricated/

keep your tank mostly full will extend pump life.......

"Mostly full" isn't needed but running it out will kill the pump. Running it
low (1/8 or so) will severely shorten its life.

better to buy the expensive OEM pumps rather than the cheaper
aftermarket ones, they dont last as long.....

Roger that. The hardware is by far the cheapest part of the job. Don't skimp
on the cheap part.

aftermarket for my dodge caravan 160 bucks

OEM 500 bucks for just the pump

but labor to change them costs a fortune........

Bingo.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:05:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On Oct 11, 6:06Â*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. Â*The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. Â*If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. Â*(No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. Â*In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Â*Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. Â*I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck (Dodge
Ram Van). Â*The mechanic told me it fried. Â*They use a high speed pump and if
it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. Â*At the time I was trying to
see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would go further and
further between gas refills. Â*With so little gas in the tank, any bump or
pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the pump to lose fuel and
burn out. Â*Now I never let the fuel gauge go below a quarter tank.

the in gas tank pumps are cooled by the fuel in the tank

keep your tank mostly full will extend pump life.......

better to buy the expensive OEM pumps rather than the cheaper
aftermarket ones, they dont last as long.....

aftermarket for my dodge caravan 160 bucks

OEM 500 bucks for just the pump

but labor to change them costs a fortune........
And costs AT LEAST as much to install the aftermarket pump as the
OEM - so it is often cheaper overall to install the good pump the
FIRST time.

On 10/11/2012 5:05 AM, John Grabowski wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.


*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck
(Dodge Ram Van). The mechanic told me it fried. They use a high speed
pump and if it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. At the time I
was trying to see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would
go further and further between gas refills. With so little gas in the
tank, any bump or pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the
pump to lose fuel and burn out. Now I never let the fuel gauge go below
a quarter tank.

Me and my friend LM dropped the 35gal tank on my Dodge van and the
problem I was having was caused by the sock screen attached to the
intake of the pump being folded over in such a way that a quarter coin
sized piece of screen was all that was screening the intake. the small
area would clog with debris and the engine would starve for fuel. I
don't know if it is the original fuel pump or not but after removing it
and reinstalling it properly, all I have to deal with now is poor
quality alcohol laced gasoline and the inconsistent engine performance
caused by such an abomination. ^_^

TDD

On Oct 11, 5:45*am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/11/2012 5:05 AM, John Grabowski wrote:





If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. *The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. *If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. *(No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. *In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. *Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. *I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck
(Dodge Ram Van). *The mechanic told me it fried. *They use a high speed
pump and if it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. *At the time I
was trying to see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would
go further and further between gas refills. *With so little gas in the
tank, any bump or pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the
pump to lose fuel and burn out. *Now I never let the fuel gauge go below
a quarter tank.

Me and my friend LM dropped the 35gal tank on my Dodge van and the
problem I was having was caused by the sock screen attached to the
intake of the pump being folded over in such a way that a quarter coin
sized piece of screen was all that was screening the intake. the small
area would clog with debris and the engine would starve for fuel. I
don't know if it is the original fuel pump or not but after removing it
and reinstalling it properly, all I have to deal with now is poor
quality alcohol laced gasoline and the inconsistent engine performance
caused by such an abomination. ^_^

TDD

35 gal tank on a van? I find that a bit odd. Even at 15 mpg it gives
a cruise rand of 525 miles!

Harry K

On 10/11/2012 11:23 AM, Harry K wrote:
On Oct 11, 5:45 am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/11/2012 5:05 AM, John Grabowski wrote:





If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck
(Dodge Ram Van). The mechanic told me it fried. They use a high speed
pump and if it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. At the time I
was trying to see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would
go further and further between gas refills. With so little gas in the
tank, any bump or pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the
pump to lose fuel and burn out. Now I never let the fuel gauge go below
a quarter tank.

Me and my friend LM dropped the 35gal tank on my Dodge van and the
problem I was having was caused by the sock screen attached to the
intake of the pump being folded over in such a way that a quarter coin
sized piece of screen was all that was screening the intake. the small
area would clog with debris and the engine would starve for fuel. I
don't know if it is the original fuel pump or not but after removing it
and reinstalling it properly, all I have to deal with now is poor
quality alcohol laced gasoline and the inconsistent engine performance
caused by such an abomination. ^_^

TDD

35 gal tank on a van? I find that a bit odd. Even at 15 mpg it gives
a cruise rand of 525 miles!

Harry K


It's an 89 model full sized V8 powered cavern on wheels. I think it's a
35 or 30 gallon tank but when we use a forklift to pick up that huge
plastic tank, we thought it was a 50 gallon tank. The darn thing is
huge! O_o

TDD

On Oct 11, 1:51*pm, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/11/2012 11:23 AM, Harry K wrote:





On Oct 11, 5:45 am, The Daring Dufas the-daring-du...@stinky-
finger.net wrote:
On 10/11/2012 5:05 AM, John Grabowski wrote:

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. *The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. *If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. *(No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. *In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. *Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. *I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck
(Dodge Ram Van). *The mechanic told me it fried. *They use a high speed
pump and if it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. *At the time I
was trying to see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would
go further and further between gas refills. *With so little gas in the
tank, any bump or pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the
pump to lose fuel and burn out. *Now I never let the fuel gauge go below
a quarter tank.

Me and my friend LM dropped the 35gal tank on my Dodge van and the
problem I was having was caused by the sock screen attached to the
intake of the pump being folded over in such a way that a quarter coin
sized piece of screen was all that was screening the intake. the small
area would clog with debris and the engine would starve for fuel. I
don't know if it is the original fuel pump or not but after removing it
and reinstalling it properly, all I have to deal with now is poor
quality alcohol laced gasoline and the inconsistent engine performance
caused by such an abomination. ^_^

TDD

35 gal tank on a van? *I find that a bit odd. *Even at 15 mpg it gives
a cruise rand of 525 miles!

Harry K

It's an 89 model full sized V8 powered cavern on wheels. I think it's a
35 or 30 gallon tank but when we use a forklift to pick up that huge
plastic tank, we thought it was a 50 gallon tank. The darn thing is
huge! O_o

TDD

Ah, that explains it. I was picturing the standard size soccer mom
van.

My 89 F150 ate the main tank fuel pump right after I had filled it
with $4 gas. Asked the mechanics to verify it was the pump, not
wiring ...it was. Unfortunately the tank was near empty when I got it
back. Since they didn't charge for the check I guess we came out
about even.

I only use the truck for hauling firewood, low mileage use so just
left it an run on the small tank.

Harry K

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 06:05:54 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.


*I had to replace the fuel injection fuel pump once on my last truck (Dodge
Ram Van). The mechanic told me it fried. They use a high speed pump and if
it loses gas for a few seconds it burns out. At the time I was trying to
see how far I could get on my 35 gallon gas tank and would go further and
further between gas refills. With so little gas in the tank, any bump or
pothole that you drive over is enough to cause the pump to lose fuel and
burn out. Now I never let the fuel gauge go below a quarter tank.
And I've NEVER seen a fuel injected engine that uses more fuel for
the same sized engine than a carbureted engine unless it also made
significantly more power.

“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”

I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.
The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.


On Thursday, October 11, 2012 1:32:28 AM UTC-7, (unknown) wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the

gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?



I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle

has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said

that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and

the average cost is $600.



I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the

mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed

to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to

replace. (No gas tank removal).



At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with

fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3

times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas

tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each

pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole

pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.



They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.



I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?

I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of

the vehicles as well as the pump makers.



In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow

me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by

the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

On Oct 11, 8:17*am, wrote:
“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”

I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.
The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message.. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.



How much of that jungle under the hood and more
difficult access do you think is due to "fancy features"
as opposed to stricter emission standards, increasing
MPG requirements, new safety standards, etc imposed
by the govt? You can't squeeze 10 lbs of
stuff into a 5 lb box without some consequences.

As usual, Congress is the man behind the curtain (Wizzard of Oz reference.)
As usual, they pass laws and regulate, and we get upset at the wrong people.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

How much of that jungle under the hood and more
difficult access do you think is due to "fancy features"
as opposed to stricter emission standards, increasing
MPG requirements, new safety standards, etc imposed
by the govt? You can't squeeze 10 lbs of
stuff into a 5 lb box without some consequences.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:39:37 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote in
Re
Have you had to replace your fuel pump?:

On Oct 11, 8:17*am, wrote:
“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”

I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.
The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.



How much of that jungle under the hood and more
difficult access do you think is due to "fancy features"
as opposed to stricter emission standards, increasing
MPG requirements, new safety standards, etc imposed
by the govt? You can't squeeze 10 lbs of
stuff into a 5 lb box without some consequences.

98% of it

Yes I agree with you completely as well.

On Thursday, October 11, 2012 5:39:37 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Oct 11, 8:17*am, wrote:

“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”



I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.

The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.







How much of that jungle under the hood and more

difficult access do you think is due to "fancy features"

as opposed to stricter emission standards, increasing

MPG requirements, new safety standards, etc imposed

by the govt? You can't squeeze 10 lbs of

stuff into a 5 lb box without some consequences.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:17:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

€œThey call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.€�

I agree with you 100% and its not just the fuel pump either its everything.
The €œprogress€� is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least
stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.

It is definitely progress.

You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

Years ago there were service stations and garages on every other
corner - and the service bays were busy most of the time. Today, with
a whole lot more cars on the road, there are a lot fewer garages and
service stations - and you can fire a cannon through most of them half
the time without hitting anyone or anything.

On Oct 11, 11:05*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 05:17:49 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

“They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.”

I agree with you 100% and it’s not just the fuel pump either it’s everything.
The “progress” is apparently in their profits, so they get to sell more vehicles instead of people getting away with repairing them. Last week I did something as simple as replacing my spark plugs, or so I thought. It was impossible to even unplug the cables without a special tool that costs about $50.00. If people would at least

stop buying cars because of all their new fancy features and accessories the manufacturers might get the message. It looks like a jungle under the hood of the new cars.

It is definitely progress.

I'd like to know what specifically these folks think all these "fancy
features"
are that are taking up the space under the HOOD. Somehow I think
they probably don't even work on cars or know what is there. In my
experience, the vast majority of the tight space conditions under the
hood of today's cars comes from:

A - Front wheel drive

B - Eqpt needed to meet EPA clean air reqts, eg charcoal
canister for vapor recovery, oil traps for PCV, related hoses, various
engine sensors and related wiring, air injection pumps, etc.
You could maybe include catalytic converter too, but for the most
part that is really after the engine compartment.

C - Need to reduce car dimensions to reduce weight for
fuel economy while at the same time trying to maintain
as much space in the cabin as possible. Add to that the
need to streamline the shape of the front end, hood, etc
for aerodynamics, something that no one gave a rat's ass
about in 99% of the cars in the 70s.

I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood. About the only thing I can think of that is relatively
new in that regard would be ABS breaking. AC takes up
a good bit of space, but that has been around since the
60s and I think few would consider it a "fancy feature".
Fancy features in the cabin? Yes. But I just don't see
it in the engine compartment.

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.




You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.



Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.




Years ago there were service stations and garages on every other
corner - and the service bays were busy most of the time. Today, with
a whole lot more cars on the road, there are a lot fewer garages and
service stations - and you can fire a cannon through most of them half
the time without hitting anyone or anything.

That part I'm not so sure about. All the complexity has added
more things that can fail. And it has also gotten harder for the
DIY guy to do many repairs. But all in all, it's a trade off that I
thjnk we all agree is a good thing. I sure wouldn't want say
a Dodge from the 1970s compared to what you get today.

On 10/12/2012 9:08 AM, wrote:
On Oct 11, 11:05 pm, wrote:
....

Years ago there were service stations and garages on every other
corner - and the service bays were busy most of the time. Today, with
a whole lot more cars on the road, there are a lot fewer garages and
service stations - and you can fire a cannon through most of them half
the time without hitting anyone or anything.

That part I'm not so sure about. All the complexity has added
more things that can fail. And it has also gotten harder for the
DIY guy to do many repairs. But all in all, it's a trade off that I
thjnk we all agree is a good thing. I sure wouldn't want say
a Dodge from the 1970s compared to what you get today.

I think he's pretty accurate from observation here...the dealer shops
here _are_ pretty much deserted these days around here. There are a
couple of independents that are busy it seems, but much of what they do
is the routine stuff like brakes, etc., that doesn't require all the
diagnostic equipment and/or specialty tools the dealer garage must have
for the complex stuff...

I had a front hub start howling on the old LeSabre (approaching 200k;
that would have been almost unheard of 30 yr ago) and wasn't able w/ my
old ears to isolate where the noise was actually coming from. Just
drove in to the shop unannounced and a mechanic came and took a ride and
pulled it into a bay when we came back and was done by evening. Even 15
yr ago that would have required an appointment for sometime the next
week at best, probably.

In addition, there are multiple empty bays in the shop w/ no mechanics
filling the slots that used to be all occupied. That's so for all three
manufacturers' shops here--Ford, GM, Chrysler so it's not just a single
dealership slipping thing; I think it is reflective that mechanicals are
just better than used to be. Now, that gets made up for in some regards
by it's a heckuva lot more expensive per repair in general I think...
--but, overall, I agree I think it's a win.

I know the big farm work trucks are _much_ more reliable and require far
less routine maintenance than before. Used to be we'd have to stop and
change oil at least once if not twice during harvest because service
intervals were so short--now they go thru the entire season on one.

--

In article , dpb wrote:

In addition, there are multiple empty bays in the shop w/ no mechanics
filling the slots that used to be all occupied. That's so for all three
manufacturers' shops here--Ford, GM, Chrysler so it's not just a single
dealership slipping thing; I think it is reflective that mechanicals are
just better than used to be.

It might be a reflection of the fact that consumers have caught on to
the fact that the average dealer mechanic is no more competent than the
average independent mechanic, but charges 3-5 times as much.

My current mechanic, and the guy I used for years before him, are sole
proprietors working in small, low-rent garages hidden away where you'd
never just stumble upon them. No advertising, no signs, no secretaries
to pay. Plumber and electrician the same: just a guy and a truck. This
is the business model that works the best, IMO. I get outstanding work
at reasonable rates.

WRT the fancy features on cars "nowadays," I like my power windows and
cruise control. The airbags, anti-lock brakes, and other hyped-up
"refinements" designed to protect me from my own stupidity are things
I've never wanted, nor wanted to pay for. I don't need to control my
radio from the steering wheel. I don't need a sensor to take care of
turning on my lights or windshield wipers for me. My g.f. has the
****ing tire pressure sensing modules, and has spent a few hundred
dollars just keeping the stupid warning light on the dash extinguished.

" wrote:

-snip a bunch that I totally agree with-
I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood.
-snip some more-

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.






You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.

I changed the plugs on my 95 Taurus at 120K -- did the 2000 Impala at
100k because I had the time and was curious. Neither set looked
like it needed changing-- and I noticed nothing different in operation
or economy.




Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.

Corrosion that shows, anyway. My 11 yr old Impala [new York
winters- rarely garaged- 135K miles] has a perfect body -- but the
undercarriage has some rot. I'm concerned about the radiator
bracket- and my mechanic is eyeing some rot in the rear 1/2. A
bracket for the e-brake cable just disintegrated last month.

The 2 things that we used to check to see if odometers had been turned
back - wear on the pedals and worn out seats- are perfect. Not a
stitch is broken on the leather drivers side bucket. [even the
heater still works fine]

It fits my ass perfectly, too-- I'm going to miss this one when it
dies-
[and to the OP I haven't replaced a fuel pump since my 1966 Dart- I've
driven a Taurus, a Dodge Reliant and an Impala and a VW well over 120K
each since then]

Jim

On 10/12/2012 9:34 AM, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
....

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.
....

And the split-barrel Holley w/ the transfer tubes and lead plugs that
leaked after every long road trip after being hot for many hours at a
time...

--

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 10:34:00 -0400, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

" wrote:

-snip a bunch that I totally agree with-
I don't see much in the way of "fancy features" under
the hood.
-snip some more-

In fact some things have gone the other way. For example,
I have a 1980 Mercedes classic car. It uses a grapefruit
size vacuum actuator in the engine compartment with a
long cable for the cruise control. With today's
cars being computer controlled, that whole unit is no
longer needed because the computer is already controlling
the fuel.

Don't forget those huge honking quad 4-BBls- along with an air supply
system that involved cutting a hole in the hood to make room for it.






You don't need to change the plugs every 12000 miles any more - or
adjust the carb and clean the choke, or rebuild the carb every 2
years. No more timing adjustments. No more points to burn, or even
distributar caps and rotors to crack.
A tuneup today is virtually a thing of the past.

Agree. A friend has a BMW with 140K miles on it and
the original plugs. They should be changed by now, but
so far no detectable impact on gas
mileage or indications of any cylinder misfires. Also,
today if even one of those spark plugs doesn't fire, the
computer will set a code and turn on the check engine
light.

I changed the plugs on my 95 Taurus at 120K -- did the 2000 Impala at
100k because I had the time and was curious. Neither set looked
like it needed changing-- and I noticed nothing different in operation
or economy.




Also, gone are the days of throwing a car away at under 100,000 miles
because the engine is totally worn out. Accurate engine controls
prevent overfueling from washing the oil off the cyls and wearing the
rings out - and valve jobs are also virtually unheard of because, in
large part, there is less engine deposits like carbon and lead
building up, and the chances of running too lean under load causing a
valve to burn are also greatly reduced.

How about rusting out? Remember the good old days when
many cars went to the scrapper because the bodies were all
rusted out? Today corrosion has been drastically reduced.

Corrosion that shows, anyway. My 11 yr old Impala [new York
winters- rarely garaged- 135K miles] has a perfect body -- but the
undercarriage has some rot. I'm concerned about the radiator
bracket- and my mechanic is eyeing some rot in the rear 1/2. A
bracket for the e-brake cable just disintegrated last month.

The 2 things that we used to check to see if odometers had been turned
back - wear on the pedals and worn out seats- are perfect. Not a
stitch is broken on the leather drivers side bucket. [even the
heater still works fine]

It fits my ass perfectly, too-- I'm going to miss this one when it
dies-
[and to the OP I haven't replaced a fuel pump since my 1966 Dart- I've
driven a Taurus, a Dodge Reliant and an Impala and a VW well over 120K
each since then]

Jim
My 1996 Ranger, with 307000km has no wear on the pedal rubbers or
floormats, and the seats are like new. If someone had cranked the ODO
bact to 37000, it would be believeable - and it is on it's second set
of tires, and original rear brakes and exhaust. Original starter and
alternator as well.

On 10/11/2012 3:31 AM, wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.
....

One (10+ yr-old vehicle) out of total of some 10-12 vehicles in last 20+
years...iow, your "statistics" are terribly skewed...

As for the other rant on vehicles not lasting as long as days of yore,
that's just convenient-remembering, too. As is the nonsense that
fuel-injected engines don't outperform old normally aspirated...

There is a lot of extraneous "stuff" as far as gew-gaws that aren't all
that necessary, granted, but it is what is demanded by the bulk of the
market, not the other way 'round...

--

On 10/11/2012 7:44 AM, dpb wrote:
On 10/11/2012 3:31 AM, wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.
...

One (10+ yr-old vehicle) out of total of some 10-12 vehicles in last 20+
years...iow, your "statistics" are terribly skewed...

As for the other rant on vehicles not lasting as long as days of yore,
that's just convenient-remembering, too. As is the nonsense that
fuel-injected engines don't outperform old normally aspirated...

There is a lot of extraneous "stuff" as far as gew-gaws that aren't all
that necessary, granted, but it is what is demanded by the bulk of the
market, not the other way 'round...

--

Government mandated tree huger friendly fuel adulterated with ethanol is
tearing up engines and fuel systems which were really designed for
REAL gasoline. O_o

TDD

On 10/11/2012 7:51 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
....

Government mandated tree huger friendly fuel adulterated with ethanol is
tearing up engines and fuel systems which were really designed for
REAL gasoline. O_o

See no real signs of that here...E-10 has been around since the
80's--that's 30 yr which covers the time frame above...only thing I do
see is that there's the mileage penalty owing to lower specific energy
content...

--

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:51:48 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/11/2012 7:51 AM, The Daring Dufas wrote:
...

Government mandated tree huger friendly fuel adulterated with ethanol is
tearing up engines and fuel systems which were really designed for
REAL gasoline. O_o

See no real signs of that here...E-10 has been around since the
80's--that's 30 yr which covers the time frame above...only thing I do
see is that there's the mileage penalty owing to lower specific energy
content...

I dropped about 10% mileage when they went to E10. Might just have well
pumped the gas full of air.

On 10/11/2012 6:51 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:51:48 -0500, wrote:
....

... there's the mileage penalty owing to lower specific energy
content...

I dropped about 10% mileage when they went to E10. Might just have well
pumped the gas full of air.

Well, not really...despite the lower Btu rating, the ethanol does raise
octane rating and aids in meeting emission limits. If weren't using it,
the cost to meet octane needs and emission standards would mean CA
summer-gas-like prices through rest of US and more like what they're now
experiencing w/ the present supply disruptions there...

It's cheaper than the alternative additives to meet the same
requirements (which is why refiners are and have been using well over
the minimum amounts that would meet the mandatory use levels.

--

On Oct 11, 8:43*am, dpb wrote:
On 10/11/2012 3:31 AM, wrote: If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. *The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

...

One (10+ yr-old vehicle) out of total of some 10-12 vehicles in last 20+
years...iow, your "statistics" are terribly skewed...

As for the other rant on vehicles not lasting as long as days of yore,
that's just convenient-remembering, too. *As is the nonsense that
fuel-injected engines don't outperform old normally aspirated...

There is a lot of extraneous "stuff" as far as gew-gaws that aren't all
that necessary, granted, but it is what is demanded by the bulk of the
market, not the other way 'round...

--

Got me thinking. Maybe there is a market for a hippie
retro car.... I mean they do buy VW beetles that are
tiny, cramped little wonders that cost $20K, when they
could have a real car. So, how about a car styled like
a 60s car, with very limited features? They could
probably figure out a way to have it get 12mpg too.

As for the fuel pump issue, the last fuel pump I
replaced was back in 1978 in a Fiat 124 Spyder
that was just two years old. Not example a fair
example of the good old days though, because
Fiats were real crappers.

I do concur with some of the OP's points, eg having
to buy a special tool to remove spark plugs. I was
recently working on a BMW and they have a penchant
for using a different style frigging electrical connector
on various cables, even those going to the same
componet. And that wouldn't be so much of a problem,
if the connectors could make it obvious what you
have to do to get them apart. I've seen a lot of
connectors in a long career, but I've never seen
so many where even looking at it in broad daylight
you can't figure out how it's supposed to come apart.
Good luck with the ones you can barely get to.

The same BMW requires a 27mm socket to remove
the oil filter. At least that's still a std tool, but why
couldn't it be a smaller size that you're likely to have
in a std socket set?

My sister's Ford Taurus had to have it's in tank fuel pump replaced 3 times.

The service manager at that dealership told me that the reason why the pump was in the fuel tank was because it was extremely rare for one of them to go.

I told him that I didn't believe that these pumps were reliable and than my sister just happened to have bad luck. But I told him how Ford could fix the problem. My Toyota Corolla also had an in tank fuel pump, but it also had a removable cover in the trunk that provided access to the fuel pump so that the work involved in replacing the pump was dramatically reduced.

The real problem here is that major auto companies want to support their dealerships by ensuring enough things go wrong with enough cars that their mechanics are busy. Electric motors are extremely reliable, and once electric cars become more affordable and more widely accepted, you can count on defects being built into them as well to keep the mechanics in the dealerships busy.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 07:44:34 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/11/2012 3:31 AM, wrote:
If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.
...

One (10+ yr-old vehicle) out of total of some 10-12 vehicles in last 20+
years...iow, your "statistics" are terribly skewed...

As for the other rant on vehicles not lasting as long as days of yore,
that's just convenient-remembering, too. As is the nonsense that
fuel-injected engines don't outperform old normally aspirated...

There is a lot of extraneous "stuff" as far as gew-gaws that aren't all
that necessary, granted, but it is what is demanded by the bulk of the
market, not the other way 'round...

Exactly right. Those who complain about one "luxury" accessory will
swear by their electric operated side view mirrors.
Fuel pumps are pure luck.
I've replaced them once each in 3 of the last 5 of my daily drivers
over the past 20 years.. All high millage Chevys and one Grand Am.
No rhyme or reason I can see except initial pump quality.
Just a month ago I replaced the rusty gas tank in my '97 Lumina.
A lot of labor just replacing the tank. Took me and my son about 5
hours, working on the floor at a steady, careful pace. I was just
handing him tools. That new tank cost $98.
We moved the old pump to the new tank, just replacing the strainer
sock. That pump has about 172k miles. Didn't want to spend +$200 on a
pump that might outlive the car.
An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers
don't see it that way.
New cars are leagues better than old ones, and that pump in the tank
is maybe the biggest weak spot in terms of maintenance cost.
I had the fuel pump fail on my '66 F-100 352ci in the middle of an
intersection way back, and there was a nearby parts store.
Took me 5 minutes to put the new pump in and get going again.
Now you need a tow.

Which begs the blindingly obvious question...

If Toyota engineers thought it was a good idea,
and I think it's a good idea,
and you think it's a good idea,
then why the he11 doesn't Detroit think it's a good idea?

It just seems our society funtions on waste. We intentionally put fuel pumps in gas tanks even though the old mechanical pumps were very reliable and seldom caused any problems. And, we intentionally DON'T make it easy to replace that pump if it does fail. And GM and Ford do that because they think that once the customer has purchased one of their vehicles, he then becomes a cow to be milked regularily.

My Toyota Corolla had an in-tank fuel pump, but there was a panel in the trunk for easy access to that pump. My sister's Ford Taurus had to have it's fuel pump replaced three times and each time the fuel tank had to be dropped cuz there was no removable panel in the trunk. Is there any freaking wonder why more and more people are buying Japanese and South Korean cars?

Someone needs to explain to someone in Washington that you don't become rich by making junk that your dealerships have to repair often. You get rich buy making a quality product that doesn't have to be repaired often, cuz then everyone will want your product, just like most people in the world would prefer a Toyota Corolla or Honda Civic over a Ford or Chevy.

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:18:13 +0000, nestork
wrote:


Vic Smith;2942073 Wrote:
An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers don't
see it that way.

Which begs the blindingly obvious question...

If Toyota engineers thought it was a good idea,
and I think it's a good idea,
and you think it's a good idea,
then why the he11 doesn't Detroit think it's a good idea?


They do, but it add $1.25 to the cost of a car so they don't do it.

In article ,
Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:18:13 +0000, nestork
wrote:


Vic Smith;2942073 Wrote:
An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers don't
see it that way.

Which begs the blindingly obvious question...

If Toyota engineers thought it was a good idea,
and I think it's a good idea,
and you think it's a good idea,
then why the he11 doesn't Detroit think it's a good idea?


They do, but it add $1.25 to the cost of a car so they don't do it.

Or maybe it adds $1m to their liability premiums, encouraging consumers
to mess around with volatile gasoline by providing them ready access.

On 10/11/2012 2:46 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
....

An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers
don't see it that way.
New cars are leagues better than old ones, and that pump in the tank
is maybe the biggest weak spot in terms of maintenance cost.
....

The problem in general is there's almost always something else in the
way in a modern vehicle where stuff is so cramped...the stinkin' LeSabre
(and I'm sure a lot of others) had the battery under the rear seat
cushion for pete's sake!!! Pita to drag that big ol' thing outta' there
to get to that on a cold, rainy day in the hospital parking lot...

Did the tank in the '98 Chebby 4x4 not long ago 'cuz the purge valve
failed and the pump sucked it in and collapsed it. It wasn't too bad
'cuz can get under it w/o too much trouble. The biggest pita on it
actually was the gas line disconnects at the tank--they're a
springloaded fitting on a cast plastic fitting on the top of the fuel
pump. There's a little specialty "tool" that's supposed to release the
three fingers and let slide off but getting it in there and getting them
to release under the truck w/ the restricted access and no leverage is
not any fun at all. I'd gladly have the old line fittings w/ a tubing
wrench...I was tempted to chop 'em off and replace w/ just a hose clamp
but finally did manage it...

3rd party replacement tank was about $115 while The General wanted $1100
for the OEM tank alone...don't recall the fuel pump--think even the
Delco there is only $200 online. The PU could have access thru the bed
except there's a 150 gal diesel tank sitting where it would have to be
and it was more trouble to move it than crawl under...

--

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:05:18 -0500, dpb wrote:




The problem in general is there's almost always something else in the
way in a modern vehicle where stuff is so cramped...the stinkin' LeSabre
(and I'm sure a lot of others) had the battery under the rear seat
cushion for pete's sake!!! Pita to drag that big ol' thing outta' there
to get to that on a cold, rainy day in the hospital parking lot...

I was pro-active on that one. I took my car to the battery store when
it was over five years old and cold weather was coming. I have no
idea how much longer it was going to last, but it did not let me down
but I figured it would in the winter. Second battery was still
working when I got rid of the car.

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:05:18 -0500, dpb wrote:

On 10/11/2012 2:46 PM, Vic Smith wrote:
...

An access panel to the pump is a good idea, but most car designers
don't see it that way.
New cars are leagues better than old ones, and that pump in the tank
is maybe the biggest weak spot in terms of maintenance cost.
...

The problem in general is there's almost always something else in the
way in a modern vehicle where stuff is so cramped...the stinkin' LeSabre
(and I'm sure a lot of others) had the battery under the rear seat
cushion for pete's sake!!! Pita to drag that big ol' thing outta' there
to get to that on a cold, rainy day in the hospital parking lot...

Volkswagen and Audi have had them back there for decades. Remember my
1949 VW. On the 1928 Chevy it was under the floorboards. Same on the
65 Chevy Van.

Did the tank in the '98 Chebby 4x4 not long ago 'cuz the purge valve
failed and the pump sucked it in and collapsed it. It wasn't too bad
'cuz can get under it w/o too much trouble. The biggest pita on it
actually was the gas line disconnects at the tank--they're a
springloaded fitting on a cast plastic fitting on the top of the fuel
pump. There's a little specialty "tool" that's supposed to release the
three fingers and let slide off but getting it in there and getting them
to release under the truck w/ the restricted access and no leverage is
not any fun at all. I'd gladly have the old line fittings w/ a tubing
wrench...I was tempted to chop 'em off and replace w/ just a hose clamp
but finally did manage it...

3rd party replacement tank was about $115 while The General wanted $1100
for the OEM tank alone...don't recall the fuel pump--think even the
Delco there is only $200 online. The PU could have access thru the bed
except there's a 150 gal diesel tank sitting where it would have to be
and it was more trouble to move it than crawl under...

On 10/11/2012 10:14 PM, wrote:
....

... On the 1928 Chevy it was under the floorboards....

The '28 Chevy (truck) didn't have a battery from factory--granddad did
add starter by the time I was beginning to drive--it's actually what
learned on. The gas tank was the seat structure w/ just a pad on top
and a rear backrest; I can't think where the battery was actually
mounted altho it may have been under the floorboard. I'm still mad at
Dad for having sold it while brother and I were off at uni and he's been
gone over 10 yr now...

The Chevy trucks were under driver's side floorboard (as was the brake
master cylinder as well) at least thru early 50s.

The battery on the Chrysler 300M was hidden in front of the right front
wheel behind an access panel in the front inner fender. By service
manual required removing wheel altho I managed w/o. _NOT_ a good design
decision, either. We're on several miles of dirt road and that was the
absolute worst "mudding" vehicle I've ever tried to get to/from town
with after a rain...it was a great interstate long distance vehicle that
I got for the transition period from E TN to W KS and served that
purpose well for the time were still making very frequent trips back and
forth. But, it couldn't live up to being a farm car even as a second
vehicle so is now an Enclave w/ the AWD and much higher road clearance.
Unfortunately, it's hardly rained since got it so haven't had much
opportunity to really test its mettle...

--

On Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:31:53 -0500, wrote:

If you own a fuel injected vehicle, have you had to replace your (in the
gas tank) fuel pump in the last 2 years?

No. I had to replace a fuel tank but the pump was fine.

I'm asking this because everyone I know who owns a fuel injected vehicle
has had this problem in the last year or two. The local mechanic said
that 2/3 of his business is replacing those in the gas tank pumps, and
the average cost is $600.

I have a 23 year old car with a carburetor and I've never replaced the
mchanical fuel pump which is mounted on the engine block. If I needed
to replace it, the pump costs $24, and takes a half hour or less to
replace. (No gas tank removal).

At the same time, I have another vehicle, a newer pickup truck, with
fuel injction, and an in tank electric pump, and I've replaced it 3
times in 4 years. In fact I finally cut an access panel (above th gas
tank) in the truck bed, because I refused to drop the tank again. Each
pump has cost around $120 just for the pump itself, and once the whole
pump/float unit had to be replaced at a cost of $275.

They call this *PROGRESS*. I call it *GARBAGE*.

Do you run the tank empty? Nearly? That's *really* bad for fuel pumps.

I'm just curious how many of you have had to replace yours?
I think a class action lawsuit is in order against the manufacturers of
the vehicles as well as the pump makers.

Nope. The only fuel pump I've ever replaced was the old style, bolted to the
side of the engine.

In the meantime, I'm looking for a manifold for my truck that will allow
me to fit a carburetor in place of the fuel injection system, which by
the way sucks more gas than the old carb engine.

Do you have emissions inspections in your state?