On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

On 8/17/2012 6:27 PM, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:


As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

On 8/17/2012 6:27 PM, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.


Approaching this decade myself, I can understand why he might want an
automatic unit with some size to it. I was concerned this summer that
any long outage would have meant no AC but we were lucky as brief
outages, no more than a couple of hours, I did not even crank up my
generator. Bad outages are few and far between and I would want
something with a long term warranty.

That's a good idea. Add some more active groups.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message
...
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Do you have piped in natural gas, or tanks of propane, or fuel oil? What's
your fuel source?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"George" wrote in message
...
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

On Aug 18, 7:35*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.

The "S" could only stand for "stupid".

other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.

I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.

That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Fascinating analysis.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
-----

- gpsman

On 8/18/2012 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.
I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty



The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty

On 8/18/2012 9:25 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 18, 7:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.
The "S" could only stand for "stupid".

other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.
I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.

That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.
Fascinating analysis.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.
That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
-----

- gpsman

Also, I don't believe Honda offers this style of standby generators in
the U.S., but I might be wrong. Remember I am talking about the type the
original poster is considering to replace his gasoline powered portable
unit, which would be a stationary unit, permanently plumbed into an
energy source and permanently wired with a transfer switch into his
breaker box panel, typically 7 or 8 KW up to maybe 20 KW for home use.

Smarty

My home owner application of the generator is "when needed". Bought mine in
about 1998, or 1999. It has been run a half dozen or so times since then,
probably totalling twenty or so hours.

Yes, I "should" run it every month. I live in a trailer park, and I'm not
sure my neighbors would enjoy the noise.

Some people hate to be in the dark, and so the money is worth it, to them.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty

On Aug 18, 6:42*am, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:





Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
* *www.lds.org
.

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.
I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products..
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity..

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty



IF you live in a rural area and IF you have a pool, GET A GENERATOR!
Inc case of wildfire, you have a chance to empty that pool all over
your house and grounds. No chance if you rely upon the utilities
during such a crisis.

On Aug 18, 6:48*am, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 9:25 AM, gpsman wrote:





On Aug 18, 7:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.
The "S" could only stand for "stupid".

other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.
I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.

That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.
Fascinating analysis.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.
That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
* -----

- gpsman

Also, I don't believe Honda offers this style of standby generators in
the U.S., but I might be wrong. Remember I am talking about the type the
original poster is considering to replace his gasoline powered portable
unit, which would be a stationary unit, permanently plumbed into an
energy source and permanently wired with a transfer switch into his
breaker box panel, typically 7 or 8 KW up to maybe 20 KW for home use.

Smarty

The largest I've seen offered is 10kW
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eb10000

On Aug 18, 4:29*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, *how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? *And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't mean
it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on it.
There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want to get
a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about generac,
indicates that they're built to the lowest common denominator, and I
have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't give me the impression
that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation

On Aug 17, 6:27*pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:





On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. *One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. *However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. *Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? *How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? *I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. *It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. *It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. *I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. * The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

* * * I'll add another group to your post. * *The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.




If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a neighbor that had a Generac that came from
a dealer. About 6 years old, it went out during the
hurricane a year ago. Dealer inspected it and found
it to be a total loss because the generator is shot.
Neighbore bought a whole new one. Another
neighbor got the old, "shot" one. He's investigating
if it really is shot. So far, all the windings appear to
have reasonable readings, and they look fine. N o
burned smell, etc. There is a burned smell though
coming from a component in the control circuitry.
My bet is that's what's really shot and it can be
fixed.

There is an old Russian legend, I think it is. A Russian peasant found a
genie bottle. Opens the bottle, and the Genie comes out. Offers the peasant
one wish. Peasant thinks, and speaks. "I wish that my neighbor's cow should
die."

I don't understand the mentality. Some thing to consider. I think it's got a
lot to do with the welfare state, and the Democrats carping how the "rich
didn't pay their fair share" and pushing the class envy button several times
a day.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Robert Macy" wrote in message
...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:42:30 -0400, Smarty wrote:




"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.




The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.


I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




* The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.


They did day that. Besides, they did not write it, some lawyer did.
Certainly not a deal breaker for me if everything else is in line.

If there is a warranty on their work, it is written in the contract.
That differs from express or implied warranties.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !

I am not sure what the differance is, but I bought a Dewalt 18 volt drill at
Lowes on sale for $ 100. At work we have one just like it bought from a big
distribituer and the one at work has a lot less plastic on the outside.

The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

If you look at the modle numbers of lots of large dollar items, there will
be a slight differance. This is so the stores will not have to 'price
match'. Found out this when I was looking for a refrigerator. I think one
had an extra emblem or piece of chrome on the door.

I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

On 8/18/2012 3:20 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
....

The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.
....

Plus the "John Deere" at Lowes is the "Sabre" homeowners' model and
_not_ the same at all. I think, in fact, JD may have discontinued them
owing to that they weren't up to Green paint. Indeed, I see the link at
the Deere website links to a "discontinued models" page for support for
them that have survived...

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
Plus the "John Deere" at Lowes is the "Sabre" homeowners' model and _not_
the same at all. I think, in fact, JD may have discontinued them owing to
that they weren't up to Green paint. Indeed, I see the link at the Deere
website links to a "discontinued models" page for support for them that
have survived...


About 6 years ago I bought a Deere L120 mower at the local dealer. Lowes
had the same modle. I now have slightly over 300 hours on it by the meter
on the dash. The transmission is just about out of it. It used to pull
the hill on my yard with no problem. Now it will work ok for about half the
back yard and the transmission gets hot and it will not pull the hill. It
seems to do fine on the flat land, but I bet that will go out soon. I
found out that transmission was a piece of junk and there is a third part
replacement for it , but that cost half the price of the mower. That will
be the last mower I buy from them. This mower is yellow and green. Should
have been all lemon yellow.

I am not sure how well it will hold up, but I will be looking to the other
brands next year if the JD lasts this season.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:20:02 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
.. .
I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !

I am not sure what the differance is, but I bought a Dewalt 18 volt drill at
Lowes on sale for $ 100. At work we have one just like it bought from a big
distribituer and the one at work has a lot less plastic on the outside.

Same model number?

The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

Same model number?

If you look at the modle numbers of lots of large dollar items, there will
be a slight differance. This is so the stores will not have to 'price
match'. Found out this when I was looking for a refrigerator. I think one
had an extra emblem or piece of chrome on the door.

Some things, sure. Low-end TVs and mattresses are famous for this.

I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

If you can't prove it, how did you come up with the conclusion?

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:20:02 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


I am not sure what the differance is, but I bought a Dewalt 18 volt drill
at
Lowes on sale for $ 100. At work we have one just like it bought from a
big
distribituer and the one at work has a lot less plastic on the outside.

Same model number?



Yes, unless there was an A or B after the number. I did not check that
close.


The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere
dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

Same model number?



Exectally the same mower. I asked the JD dealer if he could cut his price
and he said no as Lowes sells the same model.
The mower I bought from the dealer would run about 50 feet and stop. That
was when it was brand new. They came and got it, replaced the seat and
brought it back. If I had gotten it at Lowes, I would have had to taken it
to some place to get it fixed uner the warrenty.

..

I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

If you can't prove it, how did you come up with the conclusion?

Saw it on other parts of the internet. Wallmart is big enough they give a
company a price for a product and the company has to come up with a way to
make the product for that price.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 19:00:41 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 16:20:02 -0400, "Ralph Mowery"
wrote:


I am not sure what the differance is, but I bought a Dewalt 18 volt drill
at
Lowes on sale for $ 100. At work we have one just like it bought from a
big
distribituer and the one at work has a lot less plastic on the outside.

Same model number?



Yes, unless there was an A or B after the number. I did not check that
close.

I've bought a few of them and looked at many more in stores. None, at least
from the same year, looked any different.

The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere
dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

Same model number?



Exectally the same mower. I asked the JD dealer if he could cut his price
and he said no as Lowes sells the same model.
The mower I bought from the dealer would run about 50 feet and stop. That
was when it was brand new. They came and got it, replaced the seat and
brought it back. If I had gotten it at Lowes, I would have had to taken it
to some place to get it fixed uner the warrenty.

Completely irrelevant.

I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

If you can't prove it, how did you come up with the conclusion?

Saw it on other parts of the internet.

Wow! Now there's proof!

Wallmart is big enough they give a
company a price for a product and the company has to come up with a way to
make the product for that price.

Sears does the same. So? They do *NOT* put the same model numbers on them if
they're not the same.

On 8/18/2012 10:20 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 18, 6:48 am, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 9:25 AM, gpsman wrote:





On Aug 18, 7:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.
The "S" could only stand for "stupid".
other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.
I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.
That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.
Fascinating analysis.
Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.
That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
-----
- gpsman
Also, I don't believe Honda offers this style of standby generators in
the U.S., but I might be wrong. Remember I am talking about the type the
original poster is considering to replace his gasoline powered portable
unit, which would be a stationary unit, permanently plumbed into an
energy source and permanently wired with a transfer switch into his
breaker box panel, typically 7 or 8 KW up to maybe 20 KW for home use.

Smarty
The largest I've seen offered is 10kW
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eb10000

The original poster already has a portable, gasoline powered emergency
generator, and wants to switch to a permanently plumbed, hard wired,
standby generator.

The Honda products which Stormin Norman and you are suggesting are not
the right type. He asked about the differences between the Big Box -
Home Depot units which Guardian / Generac sells versus the Generac /
Guardian units sold through distributors to dealers, and asks whether
the Guardian or Kohler brand is better.

To my knowledge, the units sold by Big Box and distributors are exactly
the same, and none of these are made buy Honda.

The generators we are talking about are typically sized up to 16KW for
the home units, with 8, 10, and 12KW units being sold also for those who
only want to feed a portion of their total home capacity.

These units by Honda are not at all what is being asked for.

On 8/18/2012 10:27 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 18, 4:29 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.
Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

On 8/18/2012 10:46 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't
mean it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on
it. There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want
to get a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about
generac, indicates that they're built to the lowest common
denominator, and I have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't
give me the impression that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation


In fact, the generator efficiency is very highly correlated to how close
the load demand equals the supply capacity. A 16KW generator supplying
6KW will do so at much greater operating cost for fuel compared to the
same 6KW being delivered by the 7KW model.

When I did the sizing for my own unit, in 2006, the difference between
cost of a KW-Hr between the Generac 7KW unit and the 16KW unit when
supplying 6KW was over 2 to 1. The difference is very substantial since
a KW-Hr of electricity costs nearly a dollar at today's fuel cost with
my more efficient generator, versus $2 for the same KW-Hr produced by
the 16KW generator when both are asked to supply 6KW per hour to a load.
The savings of $24 a day in fuel is not insignificant.

The cost of the equipment also nearly doubles also, in my case $1600
versus $3000 for the Generac itself.

So, the suggestion to get the "right-sized" generator is a good one,
both considering first cost and then recurring cost.

On the flip side, the smaller engines used in the 7KW unit (versus the
16KW) apparently wear out sooner, but this data is much less available
and is very hard to find / quantify.

Smarty

On 8/18/2012 3:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:42:30 -0400, Smarty wrote:



"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !
I totally agree! The original poster should NOT consider the distributor
version as being any different because it isn't any different when it
comes to these Generac / Guardian models.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:41:42 -0400, "
wrote:




The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

Same model number?


A couple of years ago, the local JD dealer was selling the same exact
tractor as Lowes and he would do their warranty work.. He also
offered better start up service and free delivery. There may be other
models involved now, but at that time they were identical.






I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

If you can't prove it, how did you come up with the conclusion?

The guy selling the higher priced batteries told him, of course.

I've read several people who have commented on the quality of standby
generators. I've commented, or at least questioned, about the value and cost
of such. I've also noticed the almost instant thread drift. I've attempted
several times, on several threads, to bring things back in. I've seldom been
successful.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."


Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

On 8/19/2012 12:32 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 18:41:42 -0400, "
wrote:




The John Deere mower will be taken care of if bought at a John Deere dealer.
If bought at Lowes, Lowes will send you somewhere for warrenty work.

Same model number?


A couple of years ago, the local JD dealer was selling the same exact
tractor as Lowes and he would do their warranty work.. He also
offered better start up service and free delivery. There may be other
models involved now, but at that time they were identical.






I can not prove it, but heard that batteries bought from Wallmart look the
same, but internally there is less material than batteries at some other
stores.

If you can't prove it, how did you come up with the conclusion?

The guy selling the higher priced batteries told him, of course.


Unfortunately there is no good answer. The big box version could be the
same or it could be the "special walmart version". Places like walmart
buy enough stuff that often it may represent a production run that is
tuned to compensate for the price walmart names. And certainly "I looked
at it " is the most meaningless way to judge if say bearings are
different, a cheaper motor was used or batteries are not made as well.

On 8/18/2012 11:41 PM, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 3:01 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:42:30 -0400, Smarty wrote:



"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making
two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores,
the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post,
there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !
I totally agree! The original poster should NOT consider the distributor
version as being any different because it isn't any different when it
comes to these Generac / Guardian models.

Except that they are different.

On 8/18/2012 10:27 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 18, 4:29 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?


A lot of it simply has to do with peoples attitudes. Some people just
don't like any difference or change and it has nothing to do with being
old because those same people were always like that.

There was a recent long thread like that on computer forum. Someone
mentioned a new computer and there were dozens of "my 10 year old
computer was the first one I had and it does everything that anyone
would ever need" responses.

There was another thread about GPS which are not really stupendous
luxury items where there were numerous "I never needed one and no one
needs one thread"

On 8/18/2012 12:46 PM, wrote:
On Aug 17, 6:27 pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:





On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says.

So what does it mean? It certainly is standard verbage used in contracts.


If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.




If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a neighbor that had a Generac that came from
a dealer. About 6 years old, it went out during the
hurricane a year ago. Dealer inspected it and found
it to be a total loss because the generator is shot.
Neighbore bought a whole new one. Another
neighbor got the old, "shot" one. He's investigating
if it really is shot. So far, all the windings appear to
have reasonable readings, and they look fine. N o
burned smell, etc. There is a burned smell though
coming from a component in the control circuitry.
My bet is that's what's really shot and it can be
fixed.

Here's an idea- has anybody called the manufacturer to ask? I'd think that if it has the same model number it's the same unit, although with cars you might find the same model made in different factories, even in different countries.

I bought a nice HD video camera last year, then saw a very similar unit at Costco, with a slightly different model number and different color. I called Canon and they said that the only difference is that the Costco model lacked one feature- you can't plug the camera directly into a Canon DVD burner and directly make a DVD, you have to use a computer. Not wanting to buy a special Canon DVD burner anyway (obviously I have a computer...) I bought the Costco model as well (wanted two cameras).

You'd be amazed what you can learn by asking.

On 8/18/2012 3:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.


They did day that. Besides, they did not write it, some lawyer did.
Certainly not a deal breaker for me if everything else is in line.

Me either. That is standard verbage in a contract written by a lawyer
that means what I noted and wouldn't influence me.


If there is a warranty on their work, it is written in the contract.
That differs from express or implied warranties.


Yes

On 8/18/2012 11:37 PM, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 10:46 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't
mean it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on
it. There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want
to get a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about
generac, indicates that they're built to the lowest common
denominator, and I have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't
give me the impression that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation


In fact, the generator efficiency is very highly correlated to how close
the load demand equals the supply capacity. A 16KW generator supplying
6KW will do so at much greater operating cost for fuel compared to the
same 6KW being delivered by the 7KW model.

When I did the sizing for my own unit, in 2006, the difference between
cost of a KW-Hr between the Generac 7KW unit and the 16KW unit when
supplying 6KW was over 2 to 1. The difference is very substantial since
a KW-Hr of electricity costs nearly a dollar at today's fuel cost with
my more efficient generator, versus $2 for the same KW-Hr produced by
the 16KW generator when both are asked to supply 6KW per hour to a load.
The savings of $24 a day in fuel is not insignificant.

The cost of the equipment also nearly doubles also, in my case $1600
versus $3000 for the Generac itself.

So, the suggestion to get the "right-sized" generator is a good one,
both considering first cost and then recurring cost.

On the flip side, the smaller engines used in the 7KW unit (versus the
16KW) apparently wear out sooner, but this data is much less available
and is very hard to find / quantify.

Smarty

Nonsense, here is a chart of two multiquip single phase generators: Note
that the 20KW unit uses less fuel running at half load, than the 10KW
uses at full load


10KW:
Fuel Consumption:
Full load 0.97 gph 3.7 lph
3/4 load 0.75 gph 2.8 lph
1/2 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph
1/4 load 0.44 gph 1.7 lph

20KW:

Fuel Consumption:
Full load 1.66 gph 6.3 lph
3/4 load 1.21 gph 4.6 lph
1/2 load 0.85 gph 3.2 lph
1/4 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph

On Aug 18, 8:26*pm, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 10:20 AM, Robert Macy wrote:





On Aug 18, 6:48 am, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 9:25 AM, gpsman wrote:

On Aug 18, 7:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.
The "S" could only stand for "stupid".
other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.
I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.
That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.
Fascinating analysis.
Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.
That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer..
* *-----
- gpsman
Also, I don't believe Honda offers this style of standby generators in
the U.S., but I might be wrong. Remember I am talking about the type the
original poster is considering to replace his gasoline powered portable
unit, which would be a stationary unit, permanently plumbed into an
energy source and permanently wired with a transfer switch into his
breaker box panel, typically 7 or 8 KW up to maybe 20 KW for home use.

Smarty
The largest I've seen offered is 10kW
http://powerequipment.honda.com/generators/models/eb10000

The original poster already has a portable, gasoline powered emergency
generator, and wants to switch to a permanently plumbed, hard wired,
standby generator.

The Honda products which Stormin Norman and you are suggesting are not
the right type. He asked about the differences between the Big Box -
Home Depot units which Guardian / Generac sells versus the Generac /
Guardian units sold through distributors to dealers, and asks whether
the Guardian or Kohler brand is better.

To my knowledge, the units sold by Big Box and distributors are exactly
the same, and none of these are made buy Honda.

The generators we are talking about are typically sized up to 16KW for
the home units, with 8, 10, and 12KW units being sold also for those who
only want to feed a portion of their total home capacity.

These units by Honda are not at all what is being asked for.

Yes, I know that was not the ORIGINAL question. I merely answered
someone who did not know what Honda's available maximum unit was. The
information was handy since I had just researched generator's alsol

On Aug 18, 8:29*pm, Smarty wrote:
Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

You certainly have a point.