On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

On 8/17/2012 6:27 PM, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:


As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

On Aug 18, 7:35*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.

The "S" could only stand for "stupid".

other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.

I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.

That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Fascinating analysis.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
-----

- gpsman

On 8/18/2012 9:25 AM, gpsman wrote:
On Aug 18, 7:35 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use.
The "S" could only stand for "stupid".

other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out.
I remember from somewhere that you're incredibly stupid.

That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.
Fascinating analysis.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.
That's the problem with power outages, the hours w/o power are longer.
-----

- gpsman

Also, I don't believe Honda offers this style of standby generators in
the U.S., but I might be wrong. Remember I am talking about the type the
original poster is considering to replace his gasoline powered portable
unit, which would be a stationary unit, permanently plumbed into an
energy source and permanently wired with a transfer switch into his
breaker box panel, typically 7 or 8 KW up to maybe 20 KW for home use.

Smarty

On 8/18/2012 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.
I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products.
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity.

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty



The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty

My home owner application of the generator is "when needed". Bought mine in
about 1998, or 1999. It has been run a half dozen or so times since then,
probably totalling twenty or so hours.

Yes, I "should" run it every month. I live in a trailer park, and I'm not
sure my neighbors would enjoy the noise.

Some people hate to be in the dark, and so the money is worth it, to them.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty

On Aug 18, 6:42*am, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 7:35 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:





Just a SWAG, but some machines are made in China, and do not last for very
many hours of use. other, USA made machines last longer. I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

Serious users have long since gone to Honda, which cost twice as much but
last many times longer hours.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
* *www.lds.org
.

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.
I am extremely curious to know what the "world of difference" is between
Generac units which come from big box stores like Home Depot and the
ones purchased from distributors.

I have been involved in installing both, and also am aware of the
website where support is provided and technical questions are answered.
There has never been any evidence of two different versions of products..
The various Generac models only seem to differ in their size / capacity..

Distributors do offer a heavier duty case option on some models which
uses aluminum and other materials to prolong the life and prevent rust.
Perhaps this is the "world of difference" you are referring to?

Thanks for any comments.

Smarty

The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.

As regards 200 hours of life time for the generator, I too have heard
about the same number, but my interpretation is altogether different
from yours Chris. Since the weekly exercise is 14 minutes of use, and
each year the accumulated exercise time is therefore roughly 12 hours
per year, the generator will wear itself out merely by self-test in
roughly 16 years. This is even shorter if you take into account that the
generator will be run for warm up before each oil change per the
manufacturer's recommendation another half hour or so each oil change,
and, if the power actually does fail, the generator may run continuously
for, lets say 4 or more days, another 100+ hours.

This combined wear and usage suggests that you might get maybe only ONE
EXTENDED USE of the generator before it needs to be replaced.............

Probably quite pessimistic in my approach to estimating I admit, but the
200 hours gets gobbled up really fast. And the engines used in the small
home units are not all that special.

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

At times I personally wonder whether the investment truly does make
sense all considered, even though I still recommend, use, and get
involved with installation help on these units.

Smarty



IF you live in a rural area and IF you have a pool, GET A GENERATOR!
Inc case of wildfire, you have a chance to empty that pool all over
your house and grounds. No chance if you rely upon the utilities
during such a crisis.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:42:30 -0400, Smarty wrote:




"Smarty" wrote in message
...
As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.




The original question I asked related to Generac supposedly making two different lines of generators, one for sale at Big Box stores, the other sold via distributors. According to the author of the post, there is supposedly "a world of difference" between the two.

To my knowledge, this is not the case whatsoever. I am pretty familiar
with Generac models and only have seen option for aluminum versus steel
cases offered through distributors, but otherwise all units of a
specific size from Generac use the same transfer switch, engine choice,
and all other specifications being exactly the same. I do not believe
there is ANY DIFFERENCE, let alone "a world of difference" between the
unit sold at Home Depot and the unit offered via distributors.


I hear this all the time for tool, appliances, you name it. When I
ask what the differences are, no one can tell me precisely. Just
differences internally.

If such a thing really existed, Mom & Pop's hardware store would be
smart enough to take apart a DeWalt drill, J Deere tractor and
actually show the difference.

I challenged a hardware store to do just that. I wanted to buy a
miter saw and it was $30 more at the small store. I asked for a
discount, not even a price match, but they would not budge. I got the
line that there are differences. Show me the difference and I'll pay
your price, otherwise, I'm saving the 30 bucks. All I got was "the
distributor told me it was different" B S !

On 08/18/2012 06:42 AM, Smarty wrote:

The Generac larger models for commercial use employ automotive V6
engines and larger diesels, and here is where they are truly long
lasting designs compared to the home units.

Why don't people don't just hook up a $300 VW air-cooled engine to a
generator head? I've seen those things start up after they've sat for
years, and they still run fine.

Jon

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will
ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.

8.33?? Are sure it's not 8.32 or 8.34? Did you learn about significant
figures in community college?

Aside from ****ty's over-decimalization, 200 hours is about alls yer gonna
get if you buy an effingGenerac.

And then there is the issue of "typical home owner". And the issue of
expectations of future reliability.

But the implied point is actually a good one, skewed a bit by Irene and that
crazy Halloween storm in the NE.
After that, generators were backordered for up to 5 months, mebbe more. 3
million people lost power in the Halloween fiasco, hundreds of thousands of
them for up to a month. holy ****.....

So statistically, most proly don't need one. But, not many in the NE will
forget Halloween.

Plus, if all's yer gonna do is get a bitty gasoline generator for lites and
a fridge, it's no big deal.
But if yer tryna do a whole-house thing "right", without breaking the bank,
the setup really is a pita. Noise is a big issue, most of these units are
unbelievably noisy, even with quality Honda engines. Incl Generacs. Don't
believe that 73 db bull****.

If a contractor sets this up "right", esp. on nat. gas, it *will* break the
bank.
Tri-fuel is a neat and not super-expensive option, as it allows a wheeled
unit to act as a true standby on nat gas, AND a portable work unit on
gasoline/propane.

For me, $1500 for an 8750 W noisy Honda-powered tri-fuel is worth
200/24=8.33 days, esp. with the prospect of another Irene/Halloween, and a
fledgling biz.
But that is because I can do the whole installation. It would not be worth
it to me for the total price of proly $5K+ for a contractor to do it.

Hey ****ty, wadn't it you who was going to do geothermal, and get 100% ROI
in, like, 3 years??
Howzat goin?? You were perty quiet in the recent geothermal thread.....
--
EA

On Sat, 29 Sep 2012 08:40:32 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.

That is why I don't have a generator. One time we were out for two
days (hurricane Gloria). Another time we were out for 8 hours. Never
had any outages more than 30 minutes at any other time in my life.

I can't justify having $1000 sitting out in the garage not used.

Back to your math. Would you have it running 24 hours a day? I bet
that 8.33 days can easily be 16.66 or more.

On 09/29/2012 11:40 AM, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.


I suspect the 200 hour figure only applies to the cheap junk from Harbor
Fright. I've got 730 hours on a 8000 watt Generac.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.

I figure on 80 hours in 10 years, on my lawn tractor.

I got a $350(reduced to $300) aldi generator. Looks just like the yamaha or
hondas.
Probably made by the same company. I need to play around with it. It's a
6kw peak, 5500 continuous. Just looked over consumer reports. Not much of a
review.
So mine looks like the $2600 yahama. If mine only works 200 hours, probably
a good buy.

Greg

I bought a generator in 1998. Used it for a couple hours, during the power
cut of 2003, and then for the Buffalo NY power cut in 2006. Havn't used it
for much anything after that. I know, I ought to run it every month, but
it's a real pain to drag it out.

No reason to leave a generator running all day and all night. In my case, an
hour of furnace run time in the evening, and some in the morning. In the
case of 2006, about two hours of furnace run time, and some sump pump run
time, at the same time as the furnace.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I remember from
some where, a typical generator is designed for about 200 hours of use,
before it wears out. That's much more time than typical home owner will
ever
put on it.

I realize this is an older thread, but I'm just getting to it. Let's
see, 200/24 = 8.33. So you're claiming that a typical homeowner won't be
needing a generator for a total of just over a week? I'd say anyone who
expects that level of reliability from their power company doesn't need
a generator at all.

On 8/17/2012 6:27 PM, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.


Approaching this decade myself, I can understand why he might want an
automatic unit with some size to it. I was concerned this summer that
any long outage would have meant no AC but we were lucky as brief
outages, no more than a couple of hours, I did not even crank up my
generator. Bad outages are few and far between and I would want
something with a long term warranty.

The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Do you have piped in natural gas, or tanks of propane, or fuel oil? What's
your fuel source?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"George" wrote in message
...
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.

On Aug 18, 4:29*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, *how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? *And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

There is an old Russian legend, I think it is. A Russian peasant found a
genie bottle. Opens the bottle, and the Genie comes out. Offers the peasant
one wish. Peasant thinks, and speaks. "I wish that my neighbor's cow should
die."

I don't understand the mentality. Some thing to consider. I think it's got a
lot to do with the welfare state, and the Democrats carping how the "rich
didn't pay their fair share" and pushing the class envy button several times
a day.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Robert Macy" wrote in message
...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

On 8/18/2012 10:27 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 18, 4:29 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.
Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?

Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

I've read several people who have commented on the quality of standby
generators. I've commented, or at least questioned, about the value and cost
of such. I've also noticed the almost instant thread drift. I've attempted
several times, on several threads, to bring things back in. I've seldom been
successful.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Smarty" wrote in message
...
Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."


Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

On Aug 18, 8:29*pm, Smarty wrote:
Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question? He is asking about standby generators and
their differences and the discourse is now on the subject of being civil
with no comments related to his original question.

You certainly have a point.

On 08/18/2012 08:29 PM, Smarty wrote:

Why do these threads so quickly go entirely off topic with no effort to
answer the man's question?

Because people like you crosspost them to unrelated troll groups, like
the two Rush Limbaugh groups and the Baptist group I had to pull from
the senders list.

Jon

On 8/18/2012 10:27 AM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 18, 4:29 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The question comes to my mind, how often does the power go out. Is it worth
eight grand, to have power? And will your neighbors be angry when they see
you have power, and they do not? Somtimes, it's not good to be well off
during a crisis.

Apologies for going a bit off topic here...

You've mentioned this attitude emanating from others before. It seems
a bit frightening to be surrounded by people who have an attitude of
"I don't want it, but you can't have it either."

To live civilly together, requires a certain amount of deference to
one's neighbor's. But, who raised these people to be so possibly
violently jealous of another? That you HAVE to continually 'live down
with the Joneses?'

I hesitate to add: Is it not written have they not read that it is
alright to benefit from one's labors?


A lot of it simply has to do with peoples attitudes. Some people just
don't like any difference or change and it has nothing to do with being
old because those same people were always like that.

There was a recent long thread like that on computer forum. Someone
mentioned a new computer and there were dozens of "my 10 year old
computer was the first one I had and it does everything that anyone
would ever need" responses.

There was another thread about GPS which are not really stupendous
luxury items where there were numerous "I never needed one and no one
needs one thread"

On Aug 17, 6:27*pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:





On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. *One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. *However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. *Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? *How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? *I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. *It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. *It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. *I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. * The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

* * * I'll add another group to your post. * *The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.




If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a neighbor that had a Generac that came from
a dealer. About 6 years old, it went out during the
hurricane a year ago. Dealer inspected it and found
it to be a total loss because the generator is shot.
Neighbore bought a whole new one. Another
neighbor got the old, "shot" one. He's investigating
if it really is shot. So far, all the windings appear to
have reasonable readings, and they look fine. N o
burned smell, etc. There is a burned smell though
coming from a component in the control circuitry.
My bet is that's what's really shot and it can be
fixed.

On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




* The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.


They did day that. Besides, they did not write it, some lawyer did.
Certainly not a deal breaker for me if everything else is in line.

If there is a warranty on their work, it is written in the contract.
That differs from express or implied warranties.

On 8/18/2012 3:10 PM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??



All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.


They did day that. Besides, they did not write it, some lawyer did.
Certainly not a deal breaker for me if everything else is in line.

Me either. That is standard verbage in a contract written by a lawyer
that means what I noted and wouldn't influence me.


If there is a warranty on their work, it is written in the contract.
That differs from express or implied warranties.


Yes

On Aug 18, 3:10*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sat, 18 Aug 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT), "





wrote:

* The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says. *If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. * I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.

They did day that.

*Besides, they did not write it, some lawyer did.

That should be a compelling argument to make in court
when the installation is defective and as a result
the generator doesn't work, or worse, burns up
the generator and the contractor says, per the
contract, they are not responsible.


Certainly not a deal breaker for me if everything else is in line.

If there is a warranty on their work, it is written in the contract.

They explicity say there is NO WARRANTY, express or
implied. Not that "There is no warranty beyond the
warranty as defined in section x, etc" Here it is again:

The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."



That differs from express or implied warranties.- Hide quoted text -


What is an express warranty, if not the warranty that
would be spelled out in the contract?

And you'd accept a waiver on merchantability and fitness?
That means the generator doesn't even have to
function as a reasonable generator should. It's like
saying I'll buy a brand new car and waive that it has
to be usable as a typical car would be.

On 8/18/2012 12:46 PM, wrote:
On Aug 17, 6:27 pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:





On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says.

So what does it mean? It certainly is standard verbage used in contracts.


If that is what they meant, then they should have
said there are no warranties beyond that provided by
manufacturer. I'd cross them off my list immediately,
as they are obviously too stupid to write a contract.
Plus it;s not unreasonable to expect some warranty
on their work too.




If 5500 watt does everything you need why would you want to almost
quadruple the capacity? You will be burning more fuel and the initial
cost is obviously more

As far as generac there is a world of difference between the big box
versions and the ones that come from distributors.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I have a neighbor that had a Generac that came from
a dealer. About 6 years old, it went out during the
hurricane a year ago. Dealer inspected it and found
it to be a total loss because the generator is shot.
Neighbore bought a whole new one. Another
neighbor got the old, "shot" one. He's investigating
if it really is shot. So far, all the windings appear to
have reasonable readings, and they look fine. N o
burned smell, etc. There is a burned smell though
coming from a component in the control circuitry.
My bet is that's what's really shot and it can be
fixed.

On Aug 19, 8:32*am, George wrote:
On 8/18/2012 12:46 PM, wrote:





On Aug 17, 6:27 pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed..
We have regular outages in this area. *One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. *However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. *Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? *How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? *I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. *It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. *It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. *I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. * The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

* * * *I'll add another group to your post. * *The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says.

So what does it mean? It certainly is standard verbage used in contracts.

There is no such thing as "standard vebage" in contracts.
I recently went out for 5 quotes on a new furnace, for example,
and not one of them had that or anything close to it in it.

As to what it means:

"Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

I'd say it means shyster. The contractor is saying that
he does not even have to deliver a product or workmanship
that is fit for the intended use. You'd have to be a complete
dummy to agree to that. It's questionable if it would even
stand up in court. Absent that clause, if a guy supplies me
with a generator, it has to at least be functionable, work, etc.
With the loophole above, the contractor is saying
that even if the generator installation is totally unfit for
the intended use, he's not responsible and screw you.

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:33:48 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:




There is no such thing as "standard vebage" in contracts.

Check out the Uniform Commercial Code.




As to what it means:

"Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

I'd say it means shyster. The contractor is saying that
he does not even have to deliver a product or workmanship
that is fit for the intended use. You'd have to be a complete
dummy to agree to that. It's questionable if it would even
stand up in court. Absent that clause, if a guy supplies me
with a generator, it has to at least be functionable, work, etc.
With the loophole above, the contractor is saying
that even if the generator installation is totally unfit for
the intended use, he's not responsible and screw you.


If the guy supplies you with a generator it has to work, but it may
not have to function properly. That is the purpose of the clause.
If, say you want to buy a 12 KW generator and expect to power a 20
story office building, it won't work properly. The installer may tell
you that, but you insist anyway. You cannot hold the installer liable
for fitness. It does not mean shyster at all, it means if you are
stupid, you can't sue the seller for your own stupidity.

It also means that the written contract is what counts. Thus, if the
installer implies anything, don't trust him. If the contractor
implies that the factory warranty is 12 months but he will give you 24
moths, you can't go after him in month 18 because it was your own
gullibility that allowed him to get away with it. If it is not
written, it is not there and not valid. Period. No matter what the
salesman may have told you.

On 8/19/2012 2:33 PM, wrote:
On Aug 19, 8:32 am, George wrote:
On 8/18/2012 12:46 PM, wrote:





On Aug 17, 6:27 pm, George wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:

On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

All that disclaimer means is that the contractor isn't making any claims
above and beyond those of the manufacturer nor are they providing any
warranty beyond that of the manufacturer.

But that isn't what that section of the contract actually
says.

So what does it mean? It certainly is standard verbage used in contracts.

There is no such thing as "standard vebage" in contracts.
I recently went out for 5 quotes on a new furnace, for example,
and not one of them had that or anything close to it in it.


Anyone who works with contracts knows about the UCC (Uniform Commercial
Code) which was specifically implemented to have standard verbage for
commercial transactions.



As to what it means:

"Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

I'd say it means shyster. The contractor is saying that
he does not even have to deliver a product or workmanship
that is fit for the intended use. You'd have to be a complete
dummy to agree to that. It's questionable if it would even
stand up in court. Absent that clause, if a guy supplies me
with a generator, it has to at least be functionable, work, etc.
With the loophole above, the contractor is saying
that even if the generator installation is totally unfit for
the intended use, he's not responsible and screw you.


It actually means what I said. You may want to do a little research on
standard verbage used in commercial contracts.


Cornell has a searchable version online:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/ucc.table.html/

That's a good idea. Add some more active groups.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Dean Hoffman" " wrote in message
...
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.

On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't mean
it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on it.
There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want to get
a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about generac,
indicates that they're built to the lowest common denominator, and I
have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't give me the impression
that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation

On 8/18/2012 10:46 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't
mean it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on
it. There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want
to get a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about
generac, indicates that they're built to the lowest common
denominator, and I have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't
give me the impression that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation


In fact, the generator efficiency is very highly correlated to how close
the load demand equals the supply capacity. A 16KW generator supplying
6KW will do so at much greater operating cost for fuel compared to the
same 6KW being delivered by the 7KW model.

When I did the sizing for my own unit, in 2006, the difference between
cost of a KW-Hr between the Generac 7KW unit and the 16KW unit when
supplying 6KW was over 2 to 1. The difference is very substantial since
a KW-Hr of electricity costs nearly a dollar at today's fuel cost with
my more efficient generator, versus $2 for the same KW-Hr produced by
the 16KW generator when both are asked to supply 6KW per hour to a load.
The savings of $24 a day in fuel is not insignificant.

The cost of the equipment also nearly doubles also, in my case $1600
versus $3000 for the Generac itself.

So, the suggestion to get the "right-sized" generator is a good one,
both considering first cost and then recurring cost.

On the flip side, the smaller engines used in the 7KW unit (versus the
16KW) apparently wear out sooner, but this data is much less available
and is very hard to find / quantify.

Smarty

On 8/18/2012 11:37 PM, Smarty wrote:
On 8/18/2012 10:46 AM, RBM wrote:
On 8/17/2012 5:38 PM, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 8/17/12 10:51 AM, wrote:
This being a 'rural' group, I figured many in here are familiar with
this subject.

I'm seriously thinking of getting a 20kw standby generator installed.
We have regular outages in this area. One outage lasted for a week.
Our 5500 watt portable Generac has been getting us through these just
fine for the last dozen or so years. However, I'm two years shy of
eighty, and I'm getting tired of getting up at 2:00 A.M and
hightailing it to the garage through rain blowing sideways while
pulling 75 feet of heavy duty cord to connect to the switch box on the
side of the house. Arguing with the pull cord and the choke on the
Generac ain't fun either while half asleep and soaked to the skin.
Now, a natural gas operated standby does all the work itself, plus
knows exactly when the power comes back on.

Anyway, has anyone in here have any opinions as to the merits of
Generac vs. Kohler or some other brands of generators? How are these
companies when it comes to standing behind their products? I never
knew it would be so hard getting this done. It's been one problem
after another with outfits that supply these things - and then sub
contract the work out to lord-know-who. It also seems everyone does
their damndest to hide the price of the generator itself inside the
installation charges. I'm on my third outfit now trying to get this
done. I wasn't thrilled this morning to get a copy of the contract
from the latest seller disclaiming all warranties of any kind. The
contract states "Buyer acknowledges that no express or implied
warranties (including warranties of merchantability or fitness) have
been made by the seller and seller hereby disclaims all such
warranties."

Huh?

And I should pay about eight grand for this?

??

I'll add another group to your post. The misc.rural group is
pretty quiet.


In my area as well, the people who install fully automatic generators
seem to get 10 to 12 K for standard installations. It does seem like a
lot considering the price of the equipment itself. That being said, a
thing is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.
If I were choosing a fully automatic, I would try to find one with a 4
pole generator, which will run at 1800 RPM, as opposed to the cheaper
stuff running at 3600. I would oversize my needs in KW, but not go
overboard. Just because you have a 16KW generator running, doesn't
mean it costs any more than a 6KW unit, if you're only pulling 6KW on
it. There is a point of diminishing returns though, so you don't want
to get a 30KW if you require a minimum of 5KW. Everything I read about
generac, indicates that they're built to the lowest common
denominator, and I have a buddy who is a generac dealer. He doesn't
give me the impression that they are of particularly high quality.
Another thing you could do, is buy the machine yourself, and hire an
electrician and plumber to do the installation


In fact, the generator efficiency is very highly correlated to how close
the load demand equals the supply capacity. A 16KW generator supplying
6KW will do so at much greater operating cost for fuel compared to the
same 6KW being delivered by the 7KW model.

When I did the sizing for my own unit, in 2006, the difference between
cost of a KW-Hr between the Generac 7KW unit and the 16KW unit when
supplying 6KW was over 2 to 1. The difference is very substantial since
a KW-Hr of electricity costs nearly a dollar at today's fuel cost with
my more efficient generator, versus $2 for the same KW-Hr produced by
the 16KW generator when both are asked to supply 6KW per hour to a load.
The savings of $24 a day in fuel is not insignificant.

The cost of the equipment also nearly doubles also, in my case $1600
versus $3000 for the Generac itself.

So, the suggestion to get the "right-sized" generator is a good one,
both considering first cost and then recurring cost.

On the flip side, the smaller engines used in the 7KW unit (versus the
16KW) apparently wear out sooner, but this data is much less available
and is very hard to find / quantify.

Smarty

Nonsense, here is a chart of two multiquip single phase generators: Note
that the 20KW unit uses less fuel running at half load, than the 10KW
uses at full load


10KW:
Fuel Consumption:
Full load 0.97 gph 3.7 lph
3/4 load 0.75 gph 2.8 lph
1/2 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph
1/4 load 0.44 gph 1.7 lph

20KW:

Fuel Consumption:
Full load 1.66 gph 6.3 lph
3/4 load 1.21 gph 4.6 lph
1/2 load 0.85 gph 3.2 lph
1/4 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph

On Aug 19, 6:37*am, RBM wrote:
Nonsense, here is a chart of two multiquip single phase generators: Note
that the 20KW unit uses less fuel running at half load, than the 10KW
uses at full load

10KW:
Fuel Consumption:
* * Full load * 0.97 gph * * * *3.7 lph
* * 3/4 load * *0.75 gph * * * *2.8 lph
* * 1/2 load * *0.58 gph * * * *2.2 lph
* * 1/4 load * *0.44 gph * * * *1.7 lph

20KW:

Fuel Consumption:
* * Full load * 1.66 gph * * * *6.3 lph
* * 3/4 load * *1.21 gph * * * *4.6 lph
* * 1/2 load * *0.85 gph * * * *3.2 lph
* * 1/4 load * *0.58 gph * * * *2.2 lph

Interestingly the same at 5kW

On 8/19/2012 12:09 PM, Robert Macy wrote:
On Aug 19, 6:37 am, RBM wrote:
Nonsense, here is a chart of two multiquip single phase generators: Note
that the 20KW unit uses less fuel running at half load, than the 10KW
uses at full load

10KW:
Fuel Consumption:
Full load 0.97 gph 3.7 lph
3/4 load 0.75 gph 2.8 lph
1/2 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph
1/4 load 0.44 gph 1.7 lph

20KW:

Fuel Consumption:
Full load 1.66 gph 6.3 lph
3/4 load 1.21 gph 4.6 lph
1/2 load 0.85 gph 3.2 lph
1/4 load 0.58 gph 2.2 lph

Interestingly the same at 5kW

Yeah, definitely an efficiency curve going on. For a person who needs
5KW minimum and occasionally wants to use higher amperage stuff like
electric range, clothes dryer, etc, something like a 12KW, would
probably be the most efficient choice