We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water
about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low
pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped
the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in
this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it
was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot
water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank.
(this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these
may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a
washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to
washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the
water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be
an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.
This is the worst when dealing with anything in the
master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly
below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also
open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running
the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall
bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything
in the master bathroom and turn on something else.
This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound
and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost.
Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a
procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure
seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits
after a few second. To turn on the shower requires
pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling
out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's
been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the
bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions
for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently
added a one-way valve in case pressure was being
pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor
friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy
that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers.
Anyone?

On Feb 1, 5:45*pm, "83LowRider" wrote:
We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water
about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low
pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped
the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in
this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it
was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot
water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank.
(this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these
may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a
washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to
washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the
water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be
an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.
This is the worst when dealing with anything in the
master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly
below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also
open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running
the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall
bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything
in the master bathroom and turn on something else.
This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound
and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost.
Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a
procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure
seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits
after a few second. To turn on the shower requires
pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling
out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's
been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the
bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions
for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently
added a one-way valve in case pressure was being
pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor
friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy
that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers.
Anyone?

can you run multiple cold water devices other than the toilets? If
not, then you just have a pressure or flow problem, not an air lock.
If one device works ok, then pressure is not a problem, you have a
partial blockeage in the feed line. Do you have any neighbors at the
same altitude. I don;t see howw an airlock could posssssibly be to
blame.

83LowRider wrote:
We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water
about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low
pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped
the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in
this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it
was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot
water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank.
(this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these
may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a
washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to
washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the
water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be
an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.
This is the worst when dealing with anything in the
master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly
below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also
open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running
the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall
bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything
in the master bathroom and turn on something else.
This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound
and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost.
Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a
procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure
seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits
after a few second. To turn on the shower requires
pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling
out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's
been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the
bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions
for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently
added a one-way valve in case pressure was being
pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor
friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy
that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers.
Anyone?






Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

On 2/1/2012 5:57 PM, hr(bob) wrote:
On Feb 1, 5:45 pm, wrote:
We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water
about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low
pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped
the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in
this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it
was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot
water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank.
(this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these
may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a
washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to
washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the
water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be
an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.
This is the worst when dealing with anything in the
master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly
below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also
open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running
the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall
bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything
in the master bathroom and turn on something else.
This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound
and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost.
Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a
procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure
seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits
after a few second. To turn on the shower requires
pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling
out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's
been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the
bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions
for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently
added a one-way valve in case pressure was being
pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor
friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy
that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers.
Anyone?

can you run multiple cold water devices other than the toilets? If
not, then you just have a pressure or flow problem, not an air lock.
If one device works ok, then pressure is not a problem, you have a
partial blockeage in the feed line. Do you have any neighbors at the
same altitude. I don;t see howw an airlock could posssssibly be to
blame.
Sounds to me like someone used teflon tape on a pipe joint and
accidentally wrapped tape over the end of the pipe. Sure seems to be a
blockage that is very persistent.

One other comment relating to pressure. If you are in the USA and the
city or water district is also supplying hydrants in the street for fire
fighting, then you must have enough pressure in the area to supply a
large volume of water to the hydrants. Your water will be supplied by
the same water line. Have you ever seen the fire dept. opening the
hydrants? They will do this annually to check them.

Paul

On Feb 1, 6:45*pm, "83LowRider" wrote:
We live at the peak of a small mountain.

We replaced our well water with city water
about 9 years ago.

City water was overall fine for first few years, low
pressure at first, due to our altitude, but the city upped
the pressure after the first year or so (to everyone in
this area) and tho not 'great' pressure after that, it
was adequate for a few years.

About 3 years ago I replaced our (30g, I think) hot
water heater with a larger GE 50 gallon tank.
(this may or may not be related)

There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these
may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

We have water on ground level and a basement with a
washing machine. The water heater sits almost next to
washer, the master bath/shower is directly above the
water heater/washer. It's been suggested this may be
an issue.

That's all the details offhand -- the problem-

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.
This is the worst when dealing with anything in the
master bathroom (remembering water heater is directly
below). I can usually run the kitchen sink and also
open the sink in the hall bathroom. I can be running
the hose outside and turn on the kitchen sink or hall
bathroom. What I cannot do -- is be running anything
in the master bathroom and turn on something else.
This almost always results in the 'vapor lock' sound
and all pressure (but a VERY slight trickle) being lost.
Even turning on the shower in the m.bedroom is a
procedure. Having no other water running, the pressure
seems VERY strong in the tub, but often locks and quits
after a few second. To turn on the shower requires
pulling up the shower lever first, and slowly pulling
out the Moen (recently replaced) water valve. It's
been 'said' that the larger heater being directly below the
bathroom may be the cause. I've tried suggestions
for vapor lock, opening all valves, etc. I've recently
added a one-way valve in case pressure was being
pulled back down due to our altitude. A contractor
friend has no more suggestions, a longtime buddy
that was a plumber for quite a few years has no answers.
Anyone?

It sounds like the pressure in the city main has
dropped again in your area... I would call the water
people and ask them if they have changed the pressure
in the area, if your neighbors are experiencing a similar
issue then there could be a leak in one of the water
mains in your area, if no neighbors are having the same
problem than your specific water supply pipe could be
leaking on your property if the city has not decreased
the pressure...

You should have a water pressure gauge installed
somewhere near your water meter if you do not
have one currently installed...

~~ Evan

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:45:00 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. What kind of pipe do you have?

Try this. If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? 40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. Check your
valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the
pressure. That's what you pay them for.

wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:45:00 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. What kind of pipe do you have?

Try this. If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? 40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. Check your
valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the
pressure. That's what you pay them for.



It's a hydraulic system, you will need to check the pressure before
the meter, after the meter before the distribution, then along the
distribution system to find the "bottle neck". If the system isn't
supplying adequate pressure call them. Public water supplies are
required to provide a minimum of 25lb pressure to all parts of their
system at all time, which usually include the backside of your water meter.
Pretty standard stuff, http://10statesstandards.com/waterstandards.html

hr(bob) wrote:

Anyone?

can you run multiple cold water devices other than the toilets?

Yes, I can usually turn on a a couple cold outlets depending
on which ones. Same with the hot water.

not, then you just have a pressure or flow problem, not an air lock.
If one device works ok, then pressure is not a problem, you have a
partial blockeage in the feed line. Do you have any neighbors at the
same altitude. I don;t see howw an airlock could posssssibly be to
blame.

My closest neighbor has no similar problem. He is at a slightly
lower elevation and may well have different piping (coming
up the hill). The property on the other side of my neighbor is
his brother. When they (the brothers) hooked to city water
I believe they had a larger meter installed than mine. When
I first hooked up my pressure was kinda poor, but theirs was
adequate, tho they wouldn't call it great. A few months later the
city announced they would 'up' the pressure along my road due
to more people living on the peaks complaining of low pressure.
They also warned that some lower residents may want to consider
a reducer.

Paul Drahn wrote:

One other comment relating to pressure. If you are in the USA and the
city or water district is also supplying hydrants in the street for
fire fighting, then you must have enough pressure in the area to
supply a large volume of water to the hydrants. Your water will be
supplied by the same water line. Have you ever seen the fire dept.
opening the hydrants? They will do this annually to check them.

Being in a fairly rural area, hydrants are a rare sight around here.

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

No, I'm not aware of what the pressure may be coming
into the house.

Evan wrote:

You should have a water pressure gauge installed
somewhere near your water meter if you do not
have one currently installed...

That's something I'd have to call someone in for.
I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for
something definitive, but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how
much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there
is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up
alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

wrote:

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. What kind of pipe do you have?

Copper pipe inside the house.

Try this. If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? 40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. Check
your valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the
pressure. That's what you pay them for.

I almost have to believe that the pressure near the meter/road
is very good as it was increased to the point of the water company
giving out warnings and suggesting reduction valves for those
at street level.

On Feb 2, 6:37*am, "83LowRider" wrote:
wrote:
If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. *What kind of pipe do you have?

Copper pipe inside the house.

Try this. *If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. *If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? *40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. *Check
your valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the
pressure. *That's what you pay them for.

I almost have to believe that the pressure near the meter/road
is very good as it was increased to the point of the water company
giving out warnings and suggesting reduction valves for those
at street level.

Find some places along the path of the pipes from where they first
become accessible where you
can either measure pressure or open a fitting, spigot, etc.
If you can flow the water you can visibly see how much
water flows and what the pressure is like. With a gauge,
you could see how the pressure at that point reacts as
you open faucets, etc elsewhere.

From the description, it would seem very strange what's
going on, not just a simple low pressure problem. IF it
were just low pressure, then when you flush a second
toilet, you'd have about 1/2 the flow rate in each one. You
shouldn't have it go from normal flow rate in one to just
a trickle in both. Sounds like some kind of obstruction
in the pipe that when there is enough flow, moves to block
it off. Kind of like one of those new fancy hoses they have
for washers, etc that close off the supply if the pipe bursts.

Also, since it's obviously cold water too, it can't be
the water heater, though it's possible that they fouled up
with some obstruction in part of the cold supply to the rest
of the house, if they worked on that at the time.

On Feb 2, 6:34*am, "83LowRider" wrote:
Evan wrote:
You should have a water pressure gauge installed
somewhere near your water meter if you do not
have one currently installed...

That's something I'd have to call someone in for.
I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for
something definitive, but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how
much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there
is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up
alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

You can get a gauge that you can screw onto the drain valve of your
water heater, an outside spigot, or a laundry sink faucet (basically
it's a pressure gauge with a brass fitting on it to convert it to
female garden hose thread) for not much cash at your local Big Box.
Just have to be careful not to kick it while it's installed.

nate

nate

On Feb 2, 5:22*am, "
wrote:
On Feb 2, 6:37*am, "83LowRider" wrote:









wrote:
If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. *What kind of pipe do you have?

Copper pipe inside the house.

Try this. *If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. *If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? *40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.

It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. *Check
your valves.

Before doing any of this, why not have the water company check the
pressure. *That's what you pay them for.

I almost have to believe that the pressure near the meter/road
is very good as it was increased to the point of the water company
giving out warnings and suggesting reduction valves for those
at street level.

Find some places along the path of the pipes from where they first
become accessible where you
can either measure pressure or open a fitting, spigot, etc.
If you can flow the water you can visibly see how much
water flows and what the pressure is like. *With a gauge,
you could see how the pressure at that point reacts as
you open faucets, etc elsewhere.

From the description, it would seem very strange what's
going on, not just a simple low pressure problem. *IF it
were just low pressure, then when you flush a second
toilet, you'd have about 1/2 the flow rate in each one. *You
shouldn't have it go from normal flow rate in one to just
a trickle in both. * Sounds like some kind of obstruction
in the pipe that when there is enough flow, moves to block
it off. *Kind of like one of those new fancy hoses they have
for washers, etc that close off the supply if the pipe bursts.

Also, since it's obviously cold water too, it can't be
the water heater, though it's possible that they fouled up
with some obstruction in part of the cold supply to the rest
of the house, if they worked on that at the time.

OP-

I agree with T4. And I'll add the following.


.........but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself.............


Get a recommendation for a good plumber, someone who really
understands plumbing systems.
Have them come out to your house so you can explain the whole
situation to them.

You'll not be paying for "hide & seek", you'll be paying for an
educational experience.

Your situation is too complicated & your explanations are too jumbled
to allow this problem to be solved via a newsgroup discussion.

In this case, the real problem is not going to be discovered & solved
from 20,000 feet, you need "boots on the ground" or do some research
on the system

http://www.plumbingqa.com/the-causes...ater-pressure/

Does your system have a dual check valve or a back flow preventer?
expansion tank?

Something in your system appears to change states from normal flow to
restricted flow based on flow demand,.
The slight drop in line pressure associated with the increased demand
could be the trigger.

cheers
Bob

The gage would tell you if your water pressure falls when a second device is
opened. Help find out if the device(s) are defective, or if the water
pressure drops.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"83LowRider" wrote in message
...

That's something I'd have to call someone in for.
I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for
something definitive, but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how
much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there
is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up
alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

In article ,
Stormin Mormon wrote:
...top-posted blather snipped...
But, they weren't listening to me back then. They
still don't listen.


Wise decision on their part.


--
The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation
with the average voter. (Winston Churchill)

Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:02:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:38*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The OP said s/he was at the top of a big hill, might not be enough water
main to supply a hydrant.

Don't know where you are, but in the Rochester, NY area, I've not heard of
any hydrant flushing program. Back in about 1979 or so, when I was in the
fire explorers, I asked about that. The fireman I asked said they used to
flush hydrants, but some people had brown water for up to two days, so they
stopped the flushing program.


They flush them here in my local NJ water system about
once a year.

Baltimore County is pretty prosperous, but I've never seen anyone
flushing a hydrant, nor heard reference to it . (Baltimore County is
not the same as Baltimore City, which is about the size of a county.)

I think they did so in NYC, so I'm not surpised they do it in NJ.

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:45:00 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:


There has been a few periods of hammer lock (pipes
beating/banging). Tho not certain, it seems these

You mean water hammer, not hammer lock. no locking involved.

I havent' read the rest of the thread, but it sounds like you have low
pressure. Could you put in your own, underground so it won't freeze,
water tank, which would fill over time and provide pressure all the
time. It has to be higher than your house, though maybe only one
flight higher** OR

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you
have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement. It's a
tank with air in the top. As water is used, a pressure gauge turns
on the water pump, to keep pressure in the tank, which propels the
water to the 6th floor.

As the air in the top of the tank dissolves in the water, an airpump
turns on, much less often, to replace the disolved air, which is
carried away in the water.

The only ones I've seen have been expensive and enough for 50
appartments. Maybe there is another version for houses.

The owner of my building iddnt' know how it worked, and when someone
flushed the toilet, the shower turned burnng hot. That's when I
switched to taking baths, because I didn't get burned then.

**Buildings higher than 6 stories have a tank on the roof,. maybe on a
stand on the roof. And a water pump in the basement to get the water
up that high. Like a water tower in a small town, but each building
has one. When they have dramas set in nYC with helicopter views of
the city, you can often see the tanks, though often they are behind
decorative walls.


may have happened before the water heater replacement.
Hammer lock has not come into play for the last year at
least.

On Wed, 01 Feb 2012 20:25:37 -0700, Tony Hwang
wrote:


Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

Maybe he has a pr essur e regulator that's set wrong, or is bad.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:30:35 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

No, I'm not aware of what the pressure may be coming
into the house.


Maybe you can just clamp a guage to the end of a fauce that is full
on.

The kitchen spigot has threads even.

On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:37:42 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:


I almost have to believe that the pressure near the meter/road
is very good as it was increased to the point of the water company
giving out warnings and suggesting reduction valves for those
at street level.

That assumes everfything has gone fine since then. And plainly,
something is not fine. It could be not fine in your house, or not
fine from the city.


At a friend's house, the drains worked badly. Maybe the toilet
overflowed, The plubmer came and was going to dig up the front lawn
and replace the drain all the way to the sewere. No use of a camera
gto look for an obsturction, but another friend of the same guy told
him to call the county. The county cleaned out their part of the sewer
and after that, his drains worked fine.

It's always a mistake to think something works just because it used to
work.

micky wrote in news:43hni71mn90h6hobj0vhe0e3koac8b8dag@
4ax.com:

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you
have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement.

???

"4 or 5 flights" is maybe sixty feet, definitely less than 30 psi of head loss.

Indianapolis city water pressure is around 120 psi -- which would still leave 90 psi available on the sixth
floor. Is NYC pressure that much lower? Or is the pump a city code requirement?

"micky" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:02:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:38 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The OP said s/he was at the top of a big hill, might not be enough water
main to supply a hydrant.

Don't know where you are, but in the Rochester, NY area, I've not heard
of
any hydrant flushing program. Back in about 1979 or so, when I was in
the
fire explorers, I asked about that. The fireman I asked said they used
to
flush hydrants, but some people had brown water for up to two days, so
they
stopped the flushing program.


They flush them here in my local NJ water system about
once a year.

Baltimore County is pretty prosperous, but I've never seen anyone
flushing a hydrant, nor heard reference to it . (Baltimore County is
not the same as Baltimore City, which is about the size of a county.)

I think they did so in NYC, so I'm not surpised they do it in NJ.

Flushing hydrants may be more common in rust-belt cities because of, well,
rust. It's best to get the rust out to avoid reduced flows in case of fires
and emergency hydrant use. Around here (Ohio), the hydrants are flushed
every spring by the fire departments. It makes for some rustry crud on the
streets and rusty water in the house; but the water clears up within a short
time. I usually drain some of the same stuff out of the bottom of the hot
water heater every couple of years so the heating efficiency doesn't drop.

Broken water mains can also cause rusty water as the increased flow stirs up
the rusty stuff in the pipes.

I think it's good to see my street hydrant tested once a year -- never know
when it will be needed.

Tomsic

Fire hydrant is like any mechanical device. Left idle, eventually, it's
gonna rust or corrode, and turn into a lump of useless. Not a very good idea
for a device that may be needed for emergency.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Tomsic" wrote in message
...

Flushing hydrants may be more common in rust-belt cities because of, well,
rust. It's best to get the rust out to avoid reduced flows in case of fires
and emergency hydrant use. Around here (Ohio), the hydrants are flushed
every spring by the fire departments. It makes for some rustry crud on the
streets and rusty water in the house; but the water clears up within a short
time. I usually drain some of the same stuff out of the bottom of the hot
water heater every couple of years so the heating efficiency doesn't drop.

Broken water mains can also cause rusty water as the increased flow stirs up
the rusty stuff in the pipes.

I think it's good to see my street hydrant tested once a year -- never know
when it will be needed.

Tomsic

Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
news:43hni71mn90h6hobj0vhe0e3koac8b8dag@ 4ax.com:

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you
have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement.

???

"4 or 5 flights" is maybe sixty feet, definitely less than 30 psi of
head loss.

Indianapolis city water pressure is around 120 psi -- which would
still leave 90 psi available on the sixth floor. Is NYC pressure that
much lower? Or is the pump a city code requirement?

City water pressure is usually in the neighborhood of 50-60 psi (at least in
my city). Here, water is entirely gravity fed from elevated water tanks. The
pressure provided by these elevated tanks is determined by the formula: PSI
= 0.43 x height in feet. So, to reach 55psi, the tanks have to be 127 ft
high.

To accomplish the same thing in Indianapolis, the tanks would have to be 280
feet up in the air. At that height, the city would be dotted with water
towers taller than all but 17 skyscrapers in the downtown area. (Currently
the Lucas Oil Stadium, at 270 feet, is number 18.)

The alternative to a gravity-fed system is one employing booster pumps. For
a city the size of Indianapolis to reach 120psi, we're talking pumps as big
as those used to pump water OUT of New Orleans.

I can't find any reference to the nominal water pressure in Indianapolis.
Interestingly, however, I did find several news reports of the fire
department being hampered by LOW water pressure, in one case only 10psi !

On Thu, 02 Feb 2012 00:56:07 -0600, wrote:

On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 18:45:00 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

If water is running and someone opens a second
source, the pressure just quits. If one of the toilets
is refilling and the second one is flushed, they both
stop filling... usually hearing what I'd call a vapor lock.

Sounds to me more like clogged pipes. What kind of pipe do you have?

Try this. If there is no shutoff right near the meter, turn off the
water, install a Tee in the main pipe right after the meter, and see
what you have for pressure. If it's adaquate, it's your pipes.
You cna also buy a well presure gauge and install this into that tee.
What is the pressure? 40lb and up should be fine, 50 or more is
preferred.



It could also be a bad main shutoff valve with loose washer. Check your
valves.


BINGO. loose washer or something in a pipe is moving around, if you
get a high flow going, like 2 or more things using water it moves the
"thing" to a position that blocks off the pipe. Turn off all water
and the thing settles back into rest position where it lets water flow
past.

Loose washer in a shut off valve? peice of scale in a pipe? Some
other foreign object inside a pipe? If scale or foreign object it is
most likey at an elbow.

Start replacing all your "stop and waste" globe valves with 1/4 turn
ball valves. While pipes are apart reverse flush with water or
compressed air to see if anything else comes out. Then again, if you
remove a valve that has the washer loose or missing you found your
problem. If the washer is missing then proceed to find it!

Remove 333 to reply.
Randy

On 2/3/2012 5:36 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:30:35 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

No, I'm not aware of what the pressure may be coming
into the house.


Maybe you can just clamp a guage to the end of a fauce that is full
on.

The kitchen spigot has threads even.

The 'fauce' doesn't even have to be 'full on' to get a pressure reading.
Just barely open will work also.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Feb 3, 6:34*am, micky wrote:


The owner of my building iddnt' know how it worked, and when someone
flushed the toilet, the shower turned burnng hot. *That's when I
switched to taking baths, because I didn't get burned then.

Your shower problem sounds a lot more like
the absence of an anti-scald valve is the cause
or if one is installed, the indicator that it needs its
cartridge replaced because it has become
filled with scale or other waterborne gunk so
as to become inoperative...

~~ Evan

On Feb 3, 8:17*am, Doug Miller
wrote:
micky wrote in news:43hni71mn90h6hobj0vhe0e3koac8b8dag@
4ax.com:

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you
have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement.

???

"4 or 5 flights" is maybe sixty feet, definitely less than 30 psi of head loss.

Indianapolis city water pressure is around 120 psi -- which would still leave 90 psi available on the sixth
floor. Is NYC pressure that much lower? Or is the pump a city code requirement?

More the age factor of some of the water system...

It was installed many many years before Indianapolis was digging
wells and still using buckets and hand operated pumps to draw
water out of the ground...

Older cities typically have a lower pressure water system as an
artifact of the nature of having a system cobbled together by
pipes of various ages including some originally laid connections
going all the way back to antiquity...

NYC street level water pressure (not the high pressure, high volume
water mains) being 120 psi would be entertaining, as it is highly
likely
that there would be geysers erupting at every street corner...

~~ Evan

On Feb 2, 4:22*pm, Evan wrote:
On Feb 2, 9:08*am, N8N wrote:





On Feb 2, 6:34*am, "83LowRider" wrote:

Evan wrote:
You should have a water pressure gauge installed
somewhere near your water meter if you do not
have one currently installed...

That's something I'd have to call someone in for.
I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for
something definitive, but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how
much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there
is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up
alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

You can get a gauge that you can screw onto the drain valve of your
water heater, an outside spigot, or a laundry sink faucet (basically
it's a pressure gauge with a brass fitting on it to convert it to
female garden hose thread) for not much cash at your local Big Box.
Just have to be careful not to kick it while it's installed.

nate

nate

Installing such a gauge at the locations you described would
not allow the OP to determine whether or not the issue is
with the water company or not...

It is sort of like the whole telephone demarc box type thing,
they are required by state/local regulations to provide water
service to you at x-pressure to the water meter... *Anything
inside the house is your responsibility to deal with past the
meter...

Agreed, but it sounded like the OP was not comfortable inserting tees
all over the place to provide ports for a screw-in valve... It still
might give some information as to what the problem may be although not
being a rigorous troubleshooting regimen.

nate

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
.. .
Fire hydrant is like any mechanical device. Left idle, eventually, it's
gonna rust or corrode, and turn into a lump of useless. Not a very good
idea
for a device that may be needed for emergency.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

"Tomsic" wrote in message
...

Flushing hydrants may be more common in rust-belt cities because of, well,
rust. It's best to get the rust out to avoid reduced flows in case of
fires
and emergency hydrant use. Around here (Ohio), the hydrants are flushed
every spring by the fire departments. It makes for some rustry crud on
the
streets and rusty water in the house; but the water clears up within a
short
time. I usually drain some of the same stuff out of the bottom of the hot
water heater every couple of years so the heating efficiency doesn't drop.

Broken water mains can also cause rusty water as the increased flow stirs
up
the rusty stuff in the pipes.

I think it's good to see my street hydrant tested once a year -- never
know
when it will be needed.

Tomsic


The other reason for flushing hydrants is to get rid of any particles
trapped in a pipe
Such particles sucked up in the a fire truck pump, can cause some serious
damage or pressure variances in the pumping equipment.
Much cheaper to go around an open a hydrant for a few minutes
It also makes sure that the valves are operational.
..

The other reason for flushing hydrants is to get rid of any particles
trapped in a pipe
Such particles sucked up in the a fire truck pump, can cause some serious
damage or pressure variances in the pumping equipment.
Much cheaper to go around an open a hydrant for a few minutes
It also makes sure that the valves are operational.

every now and then a non functional hydrant is found. better to
discover that before a fire

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:54:06 -0500, "Tomsic" wrote:


"micky" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:02:41 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Feb 2, 8:38 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
The OP said s/he was at the top of a big hill, might not be enough water
main to supply a hydrant.

Don't know where you are, but in the Rochester, NY area, I've not heard
of
any hydrant flushing program. Back in about 1979 or so, when I was in
the
fire explorers, I asked about that. The fireman I asked said they used
to
flush hydrants, but some people had brown water for up to two days, so
they
stopped the flushing program.


They flush them here in my local NJ water system about
once a year.

Baltimore County is pretty prosperous, but I've never seen anyone
flushing a hydrant, nor heard reference to it . (Baltimore County is
not the same as Baltimore City, which is about the size of a county.)

I think they did so in NYC, so I'm not surpised they do it in NJ.

Flushing hydrants may be more common in rust-belt cities because of, well,
rust. It's best to get the rust out to avoid reduced flows in case of fires
and emergency hydrant use. Around here (Ohio), the hydrants are flushed
every spring by the fire departments. It makes for some rustry crud on the
streets and rusty water in the house; but the water clears up within a short
time. I usually drain some of the same stuff out of the bottom of the hot
water heater every couple of years so the heating efficiency doesn't drop.

Broken water mains can also cause rusty water as the increased flow stirs up
the rusty stuff in the pipes.

I think it's good to see my street hydrant tested once a year -- never know
when it will be needed.

Good point. The hydrant nearest me has been used, I think, only once
in the last 32 years. Who knows if it still works. People have air
conditioning, so the kids don't open the hydrants to cool off. (There
was one fire. I presume they used the hydrant .)

Tomsic

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 08:51:05 -0600, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 2/3/2012 5:36 AM, micky wrote:
On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 06:30:35 -0500, "83LowRider"
wrote:

Tony Hwang wrote:

Hi,
Have you a pressure gauge monitoring the main feed pipe? Our house has
one with pressure regulator. When water is drawn at any level in the
house, the running pressure stays 50-60PSI typical.

No, I'm not aware of what the pressure may be coming
into the house.


Maybe you can just clamp a guage to the end of a fauce that is full
on.

The kitchen spigot has threads even.

The 'fauce' doesn't even have to be 'full on' to get a pressure reading.
Just barely open will work also.

Good point. But a second test is to have anotehr faucet on and
running to see if that lowers the pressure at the gauge. If it's not
low pressrure but an obstruciton, this may help find it.

On Fri, 3 Feb 2012 08:16:41 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Doug Miller wrote:
micky wrote in
news:43hni71mn90h6hobj0vhe0e3koac8b8dag@ 4ax.com:

In NYC, city water pressure is enough for 4 flights or 5 and if you
have 6, you have to put a combination pump in the basement.

???

"4 or 5 flights" is maybe sixty feet, definitely less than 30 psi of
head loss.

I used to know which it was, 4 flights or 5, but I can't reember.

The other quiestion I've long had is, Does't it matter where the
building is? My apartment building was at the top of Clinton Hill. I
think the elevation was at least 50 feet above those who lived closest
to the East River or the Atlantic Ocean.

My building was 6 stories high, and I lived on the 5th floor. I
think the water worked until the 65-year old woman (who probably
inherited it from her husband) sold the building to a 30-year old
Greek immigrant who just didnt' seem to understand how it was supposed
to work. After he bought it, it didnt' seem to work. When I was in
the basement, the water pump was running constantly and there was
almost no air at the top of the water tank. I didn't know how it was
supposed to work either, but I went to the library and found a book
with a drawing of how it was set up. I gave him a copy of the
drawing, and maybe a page that described it, but that didn't help.

Although I switched to baths instead of showers, I could still see the
problem when I flushed the toilet (Most NYC toliets use a
flushometer, not a tank. So they need water pressure. That's also the
reason flushing has such an effect on the water pressure, because
there is no tank that's part of the toilet. Instead it takes water
out of the pipe, almost as much as the pipe would give. (I had spent
a year trying to adjust the flushometer, but sine there was only one
screw for adjustment, I finally decided there was no adjustment that
would fix it. .

Indianapolis city water pressure is around 120 psi -- which would
still leave 90 psi available on the sixth floor. Is NYC pressure that
much lower? Or is the pump a city code requirement?

I don't remember or never knew what actual pressures were. But I'm
pretty sure the water pump/air pump/ water tank in the basement is a
requirement for buildings more 5 and 6 stories tall. Maybe not
private homes but I don't think t here were any private homes** that
tall. And I'm sure the tank on the roof was a requiremnt for
buildings over 6 stories tall.

**I lived on Clinton Hill, on Clinton Avene. In 1890 it was one of
the 3 fanciest n'hoods (the Hll, the Heights, and the Slope) , and
probably THE fanciest street in Brooklyn. Charles Pratt was an
industrialist who made a lot of money in the 19th Century, in oil etc.
He built Pratt Institute as iirc an engineering and architecture
school, but he built the buildings with industrial strength floors, so
if the school failed he could turn it into a factory.

He lived in a real mansion on Cllinton Ave. With a lving and dining
and kitchen on the first floor, bedrooms on the second, and a ballroom
on the third. All the movies you see from the period with fancy
dances make more sense when you realize people had their own
ballrooms.

When each son go married, the father built him another mansion , with
a ballroom too. Except the last, I think the 3rd son. By the time
of his marriage, the Brooklyn Bridge had been buildt (1893) and New
York and Brooklyn had merged (1897?) and it was downhilll for Clinton
Ave. from then on. Although even in 1930, my building was built. An
apartment building, which to me is part of going downhill, but it had
a doorman, two eleveator operators, a concierge in the basement to
receive packages and groceries and meat , a dumbwaitier with
"doorbells) in each aparatment so the concierge could send the
packages up. A cedar closet in every apartment, a potato and onion
lbin in the wall between the kitchen and the outside, and the front 2
apartments on floors 2 to 6 had a maid's room with her own bathroom,
off of the kitchen. On the first loor the front apartments were a
little smaller because the main hall to the outside took up space, and
they were intended for doctor's offices or something similar.

For the 3rd son, Pratt built him a mansion on Park Avenue in
Manhattan.

So if the Pratt's had 3 story houses, I don't think any house were 5
or 6, although maybe in NYC,. The Cooper Hewitt Museum etc. were
private houses. I have to go look at how tall they were. Still, if
one could afford a private house 5 stories tall, I'm sure he put in
the best plumbing whether code required it or not.


City water pressure is usually in the neighborhood of 50-60 psi (at least in
my city). Here, water is entirely gravity fed from elevated water tanks. The
pressure provided by these elevated tanks is determined by the formula: PSI
= 0.43 x height in feet. So, to reach 55psi, the tanks have to be 127 ft
high.

To accomplish the same thing in Indianapolis, the tanks would have to be 280
feet up in the air. At that height, the city would be dotted with water
towers taller than all but 17 skyscrapers in the downtown area. (Currently
the Lucas Oil Stadium, at 270 feet, is number 18.)

The alternative to a gravity-fed system is one employing booster pumps. For
a city the size of Indianapolis to reach 120psi, we're talking pumps as big
as those used to pump water OUT of New Orleans.

I can't find any reference to the nominal water pressure in Indianapolis.
Interestingly, however, I did find several news reports of the fire
department being hampered by LOW water pressure, in one case only 10psi !

On Feb 7, 1:29*am, Evan wrote:
On Feb 6, 11:40*pm, wrote:





On Thu, 2 Feb 2012 13:22:38 -0800 (PST), Evan

wrote:
On Feb 2, 9:08*am, N8N wrote:
On Feb 2, 6:34*am, "83LowRider" wrote:

Evan wrote:
You should have a water pressure gauge installed
somewhere near your water meter if you do not
have one currently installed...

That's something I'd have to call someone in for.
I wouldn't mind having a plumber come out for
something definitive, but I hate to pay for something
that is going to be a seek and find game if there is
anything left to be done that I could check or do
myself. Back to your statement, I don't know how
much a gauge at the meter would tell me as there
is slightly over a quarter-mile of pipe coming up
alongside the driveway along with a fairly steep incline.

You can get a gauge that you can screw onto the drain valve of your
water heater, an outside spigot, or a laundry sink faucet (basically
it's a pressure gauge with a brass fitting on it to convert it to
female garden hose thread) for not much cash at your local Big Box.
Just have to be careful not to kick it while it's installed.

nate

nate

Installing such a gauge at the locations you described would
not allow the OP to determine whether or not the issue is
with the water company or not...

It is sort of like the whole telephone demarc box type thing,
they are required by state/local regulations to provide water
service to you at x-pressure to the water meter... *Anything
inside the house is your responsibility to deal with past the
meter...

~~ Evan

*Is there a spec on how much FLOW they must provide at that pressure?
A restricted pipe will provide exactly the same STATIC pressure as an
unrestricted pipe, but the flow will drop off appreciably with any
flow. (through the restricted pipe)

The FLOW or demand capacity is generally determined
by the sizing of the line... *It sounds like the OP's water
supply line might be undersized for his location and the
specific site conditions (top of a big hill, long pipe run from
the street main) where a pipe sized for a normal house
not located on a hill would be fine...

Or the flow could be restricted by an obstruction, kink
in plastic pipe, a partially closed valve, etc. Hence his
point on a RESTRICTED pipe. It doesn't matter if you
have 1" pipe or 4" pipe if some restriction has it choked
off to the same effective passage.



The problem here is either that the water system pressure
has dropped again between the water works and the OP's
house for whatever reason (intentional choice by water
department or due to unknown as yet undetected leaks
somewhere) to the point where the OP's pressure and flow
rate drop when his home uses too much volume at the
same time...


Or it could be a restriction.


Either the pressure needs to be increased back to
what it was, the size of the feeder pipe from the street
main enlarged to help with the flow capacity at the new
pressure the water department has established OR the
OP will likely need to install a large buffering tank in his
basement and supply his water by pumping it out of that
tank with a jet pump, if the other options aren't to his
liking...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Or if it's a restriction, the restriction needs to be found
and fixed. I'd check for that before I installed a larger
service.

Paul Drahn posted for all of us...

And I know how to SNIP


One other comment relating to pressure. If you are in the USA and the
city or water district is also supplying hydrants in the street for fire
fighting, then you must have enough pressure in the area to supply a
large volume of water to the hydrants.

There is no *MUST* Just because there is hydrants does NOT mean the flow rate
is sufficient. The Fire Co. may have tanker trucks to provide water.
Also if you start pumping the hydrant may get sucked dry...

Your water will be supplied by
the same water line. Have you ever seen the fire dept. opening the



--
Tekkie