December 30, 2011, Friday
I'm going to be assistant, replacing a FPE panel, tomorrow. From what I can
figure, it means to switch off the power. Big breaker outdoors. Cut some
drywall (flush mount) and then start taking wires off breakers, and off the
neutrals and grounds.

Loosen the big feed wire, and move that to the new panel. Knock out enough
punch outs, so as to feed the smaller wires. Start to put on the Romex
connectors, feed the wires in. Put the grounds and neutrals on. Put breakers
on, and connect the black wires.

Will need light and heat, as we'll be working indoors in the winter.

What else?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/30/2011 11:41 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
December 30, 2011, Friday
I'm going to be assistant, replacing a FPE panel, tomorrow. From what I can
figure, it means to switch off the power. Big breaker outdoors. Cut some
drywall (flush mount) and then start taking wires off breakers, and off the
neutrals and grounds.

Loosen the big feed wire, and move that to the new panel. Knock out enough
punch outs, so as to feed the smaller wires. Start to put on the Romex
connectors, feed the wires in. Put the grounds and neutrals on. Put breakers
on, and connect the black wires.

Will need light and heat, as we'll be working indoors in the winter.

What else?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

Just mark all the 120 volt and 240 volt circuits as you remove them. Once the load wires are out, remove the feed and grounding wires.
If this is a sub panel, be sure to separate the grounding and neutral
busses, and DON'T install the bonding jumper

Stormin Mormon wrote:
December 30, 2011, Friday
I'm going to be assistant, replacing a FPE panel, tomorrow. From what
I can figure, it means to switch off the power. Big breaker outdoors.
Cut some drywall (flush mount) and then start taking wires off
breakers, and off the neutrals and grounds.

Loosen the big feed wire, and move that to the new panel. Knock out
enough punch outs, so as to feed the smaller wires. Start to put on
the Romex connectors, feed the wires in. Put the grounds and neutrals
on. Put breakers on, and connect the black wires.

Will need light and heat, as we'll be working indoors in the winter.

What else?


1. Take two or three pictures before you begin.
2. Label each wire, 1,2,3... And make a list, by number, of the size breaker
to which it is attached.
3. Extra care on 220v black pairs to get them together.
4. You'll possibly need:
a. A long extension to a neighbor or a fully charged drill or two
b. Metal-cutting hole saw
c. A nearby box store for misc connectors, buss extensions, and
funny-looking things that live only in circuit-breaker boxes.
d. A can of Great Stuff to smooth out any mistakes.
5. After everything is in place, go back and re-tighten all the screws.

My son and I replaced a 200-Amp box on my house. The project was time
consuming - about five hours since we'd never done this before - but very
strightforward. A couple of weeks later we repeated the project on my son's
house. This time it only took three hours since we (mostly) knew what we
were doing.

There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Just mark all the 120 volt and 240 volt circuits as you remove them. Once
the load wires are out, remove the feed and grounding wires.
If this is a sub panel, be sure to separate the grounding and neutral
busses, and DON'T install the bonding jumper

On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

wrote in message
...


Will need light and heat, as we'll be working indoors in the winter.

What else?



Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.

On Dec 30, 5:57*pm, RBM wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

Oops! Now that I understand what you mean, it makes a LOT more sense. Great
idea. Thank you.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"RBM" wrote in message
...

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come through
my server.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On 12/30/2011 5:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come through
my server.

Mark, please don't.

Go to alternate server if you really, really, really think you just must
see what he said--(essentially repeat of others' advice).

HeyBub covered every point made there and more...

--

On 12/30/2011 6:05 PM, Mark wrote:
On Dec 30, 5:57 pm, wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

I would not assume that they are currently connected to the proper size
breakers. I would size the breaker to the conductor size as I was
reinstalling the loads

Just lost a post from RBM, also. No telling what's with my server, these
last few days.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 12/30/2011 5:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come through
my server.

Mark, please don't.

Go to alternate server if you really, really, really think you just must
see what he said--(essentially repeat of others' advice).

HeyBub covered every point made there and more...

--

RBM wrote:

On 12/30/2011 6:05 PM, Mark wrote:
On Dec 30, 5:57 pm, wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

I would not assume that they are currently connected to the proper size
breakers. I would size the breaker to the conductor size as I was
reinstalling the loads

That, with the caveat that is it's a 12ga wire coming off a 15A breaker,
don't assume you can safely replace it with a 20A breaker, there could
be 14ga wiring downstream.

On 12/30/2011 8:29 PM, Pete C. wrote:

RBM wrote:

On 12/30/2011 6:05 PM, Mark wrote:
On Dec 30, 5:57 pm, wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

I would not assume that they are currently connected to the proper size
breakers. I would size the breaker to the conductor size as I was
reinstalling the loads

That, with the caveat that is it's a 12ga wire coming off a 15A breaker,
don't assume you can safely replace it with a 20A breaker, there could
be 14ga wiring downstream.

There shouldn't be. Unless you're prepared to uncover the entire wiring
system, there could always be a chance that a smaller conductor was
spliced to a larger one. If, when disconnecting the wires from the
breakers, you find conductors mismatched to the breaker size, it would
make sense to investigate the circuit

hows the main power line? it may not be the proper length to reach the
main breaker in the new box...

might need to replace this line.......

do upgrade to current grounding code, strap out water meter, 2 8 foot
bonded ground rods etc

I used to get those silly error messages all the time too until I
switched to giganews. Giganews is fast and it always works.

On 12/30/2011 6:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come through
my server.

"RBM" wrote in message
...
On 12/30/2011 8:29 PM, Pete C. wrote:

RBM wrote:

On 12/30/2011 6:05 PM, Mark wrote:
On Dec 30, 5:57 pm, wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few
circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple
walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors,
that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if
this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

I would not assume that they are currently connected to the proper size
breakers. I would size the breaker to the conductor size as I was
reinstalling the loads

That, with the caveat that is it's a 12ga wire coming off a 15A breaker,
don't assume you can safely replace it with a 20A breaker, there could
be 14ga wiring downstream.

I assume if you replace a 20A with a 15A breaker you're likely to start
tripping the breaker. I've found, unfortunately, people often put in a
larger breaker rather than run a new circuit. In my 70 year old house, I
found a lot of 20A breakers in the panel but the two oldest ones were 15A
and that made my suspect the newer breakers were installed improperly
because 15A breakers kept tripping. I've since put 15A breakers (dual
skinnies) on all the old cloth covered circuits and run 12ga wire on 20A
breakers to all the potentially large loads (3 new kitchen circuits, two
outside circuits, two new bedroom circuits and one for my RAS.

There shouldn't be. Unless you're prepared to uncover the entire wiring
system, there could always be a chance that a smaller conductor was
spliced to a larger one. If, when disconnecting the wires from the
breakers, you find conductors mismatched to the breaker size, it would
make sense to investigate the circuit

This brings up an interesting question. Is there a way to determine the
real ampacity of a branch circuit other than inspecting every outlet, switch
and junction box on the circuit? Can someone throw the main breaker and
take a meter reading that might indicate that a circuit that appears to
warrant a 20A breaker can only safely handle 15A? Is voltage drop a clue to
there being an issue with a circuit's current carrying capacity?

--
Bobby G.

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 12/30/2011 5:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come
through
my server.

Mark, please don't.

Go to alternate server if you really, really, really think you just must
see what he said--(essentially repeat of others' advice).

HeyBub covered every point made there and more...

HeyBub made a post on this thread? Didn't show up on my server!

--
Bobby G.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

On 12/30/2011 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.

On 12/30/2011 9:45 PM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On 12/30/2011 8:29 PM, Pete C. wrote:

RBM wrote:

On 12/30/2011 6:05 PM, Mark wrote:
On Dec 30, 5:57 pm, wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few
circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple
walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors,
that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if
this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

and what size (how many amps) breaker they each go to

a picture or two is a good idea

Mark

I would not assume that they are currently connected to the proper size
breakers. I would size the breaker to the conductor size as I was
reinstalling the loads

That, with the caveat that is it's a 12ga wire coming off a 15A breaker,
don't assume you can safely replace it with a 20A breaker, there could
be 14ga wiring downstream.

I assume if you replace a 20A with a 15A breaker you're likely to start
tripping the breaker. I've found, unfortunately, people often put in a
larger breaker rather than run a new circuit. In my 70 year old house, I
found a lot of 20A breakers in the panel but the two oldest ones were 15A
and that made my suspect the newer breakers were installed improperly
because 15A breakers kept tripping. I've since put 15A breakers (dual
skinnies) on all the old cloth covered circuits and run 12ga wire on 20A
breakers to all the potentially large loads (3 new kitchen circuits, two
outside circuits, two new bedroom circuits and one for my RAS.

There shouldn't be. Unless you're prepared to uncover the entire wiring
system, there could always be a chance that a smaller conductor was
spliced to a larger one. If, when disconnecting the wires from the
breakers, you find conductors mismatched to the breaker size, it would
make sense to investigate the circuit

This brings up an interesting question. Is there a way to determine the
real ampacity of a branch circuit other than inspecting every outlet, switch
and junction box on the circuit? Can someone throw the main breaker and
take a meter reading that might indicate that a circuit that appears to
warrant a 20A breaker can only safely handle 15A? Is voltage drop a clue to
there being an issue with a circuit's current carrying capacity?

--
Bobby G.


There is no way to test for a reduced wire size in a circuit, other than
physically looking. There are certain instances where it is legal to
make taps of a smaller conductor size, but they have very specific
rules. You can also connect a larger ampacity conductor to a smaller
breaker, which may be done on a long run, to prevent voltage drop

You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

CY: I save old line cords from appliances, for reasons such as this.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

CY: I'm sure they are just fine. Ideally, they should be UF, which is ultra
violent light resistant. But, they must work OK.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

CY: Wow, that'd a good reason for more power sockets. I bet they (cattle and
man alike) went through a lot of water, also.


Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.

CY: Mine is even less safe than a Mr. Heater catalytic. But, I figure Tim
and I are non smokers, and we'll be in and out a lot, so we won't really be
too badly exposed to monoxide.

Probably good idea to use 15s, unless proven otherwise?

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Pete C." wrote in message
.com...

That, with the caveat that is it's a 12ga wire coming off a 15A breaker,
don't assume you can safely replace it with a 20A breaker, there could
be 14ga wiring downstream.

I"m not sure, but we'll find out tomorrow. That did occur to me, that the
power feed might be too short. We'll see.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"bob haller" wrote in message
...
hows the main power line? it may not be the proper length to reach the
main breaker in the new box...

might need to replace this line.......

do upgrade to current grounding code, strap out water meter, 2 8 foot
bonded ground rods etc

I had an eternal september account, which did good. Lost the log and pass
when my computer got eaten by a wicked ass trojan, and killed my hard drive.
I mean, totally killed it.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"Jack Hammer" wrote in message
...
I used to get those silly error messages all the time too until I
switched to giganews. Giganews is fast and it always works.

On 12/30/2011 6:09 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Mark, please send your post again. For some reason, it didn't come through
my server.

You know, that might work. Thanks for a good idea.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...

Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

You know, I'd probably have thought of that tomorrow. I'd rather use a
propane heater and a strap on head lamp, and work on a "cold" panel. Rather
than risk frying myself.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:09:05 -0500, RBM wrote:

On 12/30/2011 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.
HOW? You are doing it in the warm, with good light and you have at
least half a brain.

Disconnecting and replacing the panel without the power disconnected
(and locked out) might be dangerous -

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:26:37 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

You know, that might work. Thanks for a good idea.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.

wrote in message
.. .

Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

I've done it several times - including the main panel at the
dealership a few decades ago. Got the panel out while there was still
light coming in the window - got the new one in and power on to one
circuit with headlights shining in the window, and finished the rest
with power on.

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:27:45 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

You know, I'd probably have thought of that tomorrow. I'd rather use a
propane heater and a strap on head lamp, and work on a "cold" panel. Rather
than risk frying myself.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org

Only you know your capability and level of comfort. Go with your gut.
I'm relatively comfortable working on a live panel, but I've done it
often enough before.
.

"RBM" wrote in message
...

Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.

Started the job about 10 Am. Tim had pulled all the wires off the FPE
breakers, and pulled the bus bars out. Wires pointing in every which what
direction. I loosened a bunch of wires, and slipped them out. The new panel
box, I had to knock a few of the knock outs. Tape the big power feed wires,
they were pointing in different directions. The panel box new is smaller, so
I've got room to work.

The wires are now into the box. Some are too short. Some breakers are wrong,
need a double 30 for the HWH for example.

We broke for lunch, and parts list. wire nuts, wire, and so on. I'll be
going back to work in a few minutes. Gather some parts, and go back down the
road. The job is actually going rather well.

--

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...


It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.
HOW? You are doing it in the warm, with good light and you have at
least half a brain.

Disconnecting and replacing the panel without the power disconnected
(and locked out) might be dangerous -

On 12/31/2011 1:11 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:09:05 -0500, wrote:

On 12/30/2011 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.
HOW? You are doing it in the warm, with good light and you have at
least half a brain.

Disconnecting and replacing the panel without the power disconnected
(and locked out) might be dangerous -

If you had half a brain, you'd do this more quickly and more safely,
with the power to the panel disconnected. Google can give you
information, but obviously, not experience

On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:58:14 -0500, RBM wrote:

On 12/31/2011 1:11 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:09:05 -0500, wrote:

On 12/30/2011 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex, plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.
HOW? You are doing it in the warm, with good light and you have at
least half a brain.

Disconnecting and replacing the panel without the power disconnected
(and locked out) might be dangerous -

If you had half a brain, you'd do this more quickly and more safely,
with the power to the panel disconnected. Google can give you
information, but obviously, not experience
No google involved - and LOTS of experience. Most of it good.
I don 't like working in the dark (and or cold), so I do what I can
with the power on, do as little as necessary with it off, and finish
up with power on.
Made it sixty years that way.

I was fortunate today. Working during dayligh thours. It did get cloudy, and
cold. So, I set up my propane lantern, which provided some light and heat.

The panel went in, reasonably well. Start at 10 AM, and break for lunch
about12:30. Finished about 5:00. I had to go home for parts after lunch,
needed some minor things. And then had to get some wire for making wires
longer.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 16:58:14 -0500, RBM wrote:


If you had half a brain, you'd do this more quickly and more safely,
with the power to the panel disconnected. Google can give you
information, but obviously, not experience
No google involved - and LOTS of experience. Most of it good.
I don 't like working in the dark (and or cold), so I do what I can
with the power on, do as little as necessary with it off, and finish
up with power on.
Made it sixty years that way.

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Started the job about 10 Am. Tim had pulled all the wires off the FPE
breakers, and pulled the bus bars out. Wires pointing in every which
what direction. I loosened a bunch of wires, and slipped them out.
The new panel box, I had to knock a few of the knock outs. Tape the
big power feed wires, they were pointing in different directions. The
panel box new is smaller, so I've got room to work.

The wires are now into the box. Some are too short. Some breakers are
wrong, need a double 30 for the HWH for example.

We broke for lunch, and parts list. wire nuts, wire, and so on. I'll
be going back to work in a few minutes. Gather some parts, and go
back down the road. The job is actually going rather well.



Ah, you hit my earlier suggestion #4c of things you will need:

"A nearby box store for misc connectors, buss extensions, and funny-looking
things that live only in circuit-breaker boxes."

On 12/31/2011 3:58 PM, RBM wrote:
On 12/31/2011 1:11 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 22:09:05 -0500, wrote:

On 12/30/2011 10:00 PM, wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:21:53 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 18:03:36 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Do you happen to have an outlet outdoors that is connected ahead of
that big main breaker, or a subfeed to a garage or other shed? If you
do, you can run a heavy extension cord into the house for lights, and
if you use a heavy cord #14 or #12, you can wirenut a cord on the
furnace wires to get heat.

CY: I doubt it. I've suggested Tim ask a neighbor to let him use
power, but
he's going to use a gasoline generator for power, instead.

I've taken 100 ft. (or other length) of
romex and put a plug on the end to make such a cord if I did not have
a suitable cord. This will work for temporary situations. If you
dont have an outdoor outlet or shed, maybe feed from a neighbor's
house.

CY: One fire department I was in, used a 250 foot roll of Romex,
plug on one
end, four socket junction box on the other end, for temporary
power to the
pavillion.

If none of these are an option, they make decent LED work-lights for
around $30 and when they get dim, plug them into your car's
cig-lighter to recharge. I've even run wires from my car battery into
a building to operate a 12V work-light. Of course you may need to run
the car at intervals or you'll be calling a friend to junp start it.

CY: I've got assortment of various jumper packs and such. I'd been
thinking
propane lantern, for heat and light.

Those portable kerosene or propane heaters will help keep you warm,
but be careful to get enough ventilation to avoid carbon monoxide.

CY: Do also have a propane infared heater, if starts to get cold.

LED worklights are easy on the car battery compared to the 12v
incandescnt bulbs.

CY: So true. Thank you for some good ideas.


You should be able to run your furnace off that generator if it's got
enough amperage. Take the cable that feeds the furnace out of the
breaker box, wirenut a #14 cord on to it, and plug it in.

I see a lot of temporary romex made cords used at summer festivals and
fairs. Since it's plugged in and temporary I dont think it violates
any codes. Most of these cords at these events are made by licensed
electricians anyhow.

Last summer our county fair was during a severe heat spell, and the
farmers who had cattle were running around 120 fans in the barns.
Mostly those big fans with half-horse or larger motors. The
electrician was struggling to make all kinds of temporary cords, and
he was not pleased. In fact he plans to install more permanent
outlets in those barns before the next fair. I guess those 5 days of
the fair, where he was on call 24/7 must have wore him out.

Those Mr. Heater infared heaters work well. I use one on my toolshed
in winter. But they do need ventilation to be safe. My toolshed is
12X16, so it's not real big, but it's not insulated. But it stays
pretty warm with that heater. I just start the heater an hour befoere
I go in there to work.
Get everything ready to pull first. Disconnect all but the light
where you are working and the furnace.
Then do the disconnect and pull the panel.
Get the panel in and the power back on.
Hook up the work light, then the furnace, then the rest of the
circuits. You only need to be out of power, and cold, for half an
hour AT MOST.

It would be unnecessarily dangerous, and time consuming to pull all the
cables, especially NM cables with bare ground wires, from a live panel.
HOW? You are doing it in the warm, with good light and you have at
least half a brain.

Disconnecting and replacing the panel without the power disconnected
(and locked out) might be dangerous -

If you had half a brain, you'd do this more quickly and more safely,
with the power to the panel disconnected. Google can give you
information, but obviously, not experience

I treat everything like it's energized whether it's on or not because
I've seen too many people get hurt. Years ago, I heard of a young
electrician on an industrial job who was hooking up a transformer that
used a 4,160 volt primary and when he leaned back to admire his work,
his hair suddenly stood on end. He looked down to the floor below and
some guy was going up and down a line of disconnects turning them on and
off while looking around to see what came on. The young fellow who
felt the tingle climbed down from where he was, walked up to switch
flipper and without saying a word, proceeded to beat the crap out of
him. It was like the scene in the bar of the Star Wars movie where
everyone went back to their business after the antagonist was shot dead.
The electrical incident occurred before OSHA came into existence but I
think there were tags but no locks on the switches. I don't trust anyone
around high voltage and I'm going to test things for myself before I
touch it and I'm going to lock it out myself. A volt meter
should be the first thing to touch an electrical circuit of any voltage
before you do.

TDD

I hear the voice of experience, O man of wisdom and nobility! Thou
sayest.....

I wrote a list at lunch, and had most of what was needed, back home.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...

Ah, you hit my earlier suggestion #4c of things you will need:

"A nearby box store for misc connectors, buss extensions, and funny-looking
things that live only in circuit-breaker boxes."

I am embarassed to say. I did think to padlock shut the main breaker box
outside, but I neglected to. I did check for power, before doing much. Yours
is a very appropriate reminder.

Glad the eletrician you mention wasn't killed.

Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

I treat everything like it's energized whether it's on or not because
I've seen too many people get hurt. Years ago, I heard of a young
electrician on an industrial job who was hooking up a transformer that
used a 4,160 volt primary and when he leaned back to admire his work,
his hair suddenly stood on end. He looked down to the floor below and
some guy was going up and down a line of disconnects turning them on and
off while looking around to see what came on. The young fellow who
felt the tingle climbed down from where he was, walked up to switch
flipper and without saying a word, proceeded to beat the crap out of
him. It was like the scene in the bar of the Star Wars movie where
everyone went back to their business after the antagonist was shot dead.
The electrical incident occurred before OSHA came into existence but I
think there were tags but no locks on the switches. I don't trust anyone
around high voltage and I'm going to test things for myself before I
touch it and I'm going to lock it out myself. A volt meter
should be the first thing to touch an electrical circuit of any voltage
before you do.

TDD

On 12/31/2011 9:28 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
I am embarassed to say. I did think to padlock shut the main breaker box
outside, but I neglected to. I did check for power, before doing much. Yours
is a very appropriate reminder.

Glad the eletrician you mention wasn't killed.


I heard that the switch flipper was fired after he got out of the
hospital and not one word was said to the electrician by his employer
about the incident. Of course these days with Political Correctness and
all that crap....... ^_^

TDD

On Dec 30, 5:57*pm, RBM wrote:
On 12/30/2011 5:35 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote: There's only a few circuits in the box, so I don't think it's critical to
label the wires. We can go through with some time and a couple walkie
talkies if he wants tem labelled. There's a big breaker outdoors, that feeds
this panel. It's the main panel box in the trailer. I'm not sure if this is
considered "sub panel".

Thank you for the ideas and wisdom.

I wasn't suggesting a need to label where the circuits go, just to
identify those that are 120 volt, from those that are 240 volt

Only takes a minute to label them right the first time. Maybe I should
say label the way they were to start with.

Jimmie