My son bought my father-in-law's house three years ago. During a
remodeling job, I did some minor electrical work for him and found out
that he has a Federal Pacific breaker box. Now I know that they have
problems especially with double pole breakers. My question is when did
this proble arise? This house was built in the early 1950's and all I
can find out about the problem seems to stem from around the middle
sixties.

I'm not sure when, I thought all FP breakers were all bad. Do a search
and you will see that FP breakers are a known problem. Regardless you
should have the panel changed.

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

I think the problem started the day they were designed.

"rile" wrote in message
oups.com...
My son bought my father-in-law's house three years ago. During a
remodeling job, I did some minor electrical work for him and found out
that he has a Federal Pacific breaker box. Now I know that they have
problems especially with double pole breakers. My question is when did
this proble arise? This house was built in the early 1950's and all I
can find out about the problem seems to stem from around the middle
sixties.

You can find all kinds of negative information on blogs, as well as plenty
of law suits against them. When I started in the electrical trade in the
early seventies, most supply companies carried two brands of panels. One
would be the quality brand like Square D or Murray, and the other would be
the cheap brand which was almost always FPE. We as installers generally
hated them and all had stories of how they don't trip, etc etc. The truth is
the panel does carry a U.L. label as do the breakers, and although FPE has
been out of business for many years, circuit breakers for their stab-lok
panels are still being made today. They were being made by the American
Circuit breaker co. which sold out to another company who's name escapes me,
and they too carry a U.L. label



"rile" wrote in message
oups.com...
My son bought my father-in-law's house three years ago. During a
remodeling job, I did some minor electrical work for him and found out
that he has a Federal Pacific breaker box. Now I know that they have
problems especially with double pole breakers. My question is when did
this proble arise? This house was built in the early 1950's and all I
can find out about the problem seems to stem from around the middle
sixties.

I have a FP panel installed about 1979 and I recently found breakers
dont trip under full short

New panel is a definite must!

rile wrote:
My son bought my father-in-law's house three years ago. During a
remodeling job, I did some minor electrical work for him and found out
that he has a Federal Pacific breaker box. Now I know that they have
problems especially with double pole breakers. My question is when did
this proble arise? This house was built in the early 1950's and all I
can find out about the problem seems to stem from around the middle
sixties.


They were cheaply built panels and breakers designed to meet a price
point (much like the "all this for $399 dell computers") so that when
customers demanded a cheap price that is what was installed. They are
well known for issues such as not tripping during a fault.

What rumors I'd heard: The "UL" label was not awarded to FPE during
testing. FPE just slapped a UL label on after the fact, and started
selling. So the problem was at the beginning. I changed mine out long
ago during an upgrade, and have a bunch of FPE breakers sitting in a
box in the shop. They're for sale! Tom

RBM wrote:
You can find all kinds of negative information on blogs, as well as plenty
of law suits against them. When I started in the electrical trade in the
early seventies, most supply companies carried two brands of panels. One
would be the quality brand like Square D or Murray, and the other would be
the cheap brand which was almost always FPE. We as installers generally
hated them and all had stories of how they don't trip, etc etc. The truth is
the panel does carry a U.L. label as do the breakers, and although FPE has
been out of business for many years, circuit breakers for their stab-lok
panels are still being made today. They were being made by the American
Circuit breaker co. which sold out to another company who's name escapes me,
and they too carry a U.L. label


Reliance Electric bought FPE and discovered that FPE fraudulently
supplied test information to UL. UL then delisted most of the FPE line.
Reliance Electric sued the seller of FPE and setteled for about 43
million dollars to cover liability. I believe there is currently a class
action law suit in New Jersey. The problem probably covers the 1965
-1980 time period although the current Canadian manufacturer won't say
what changes have been made to the line. The problem covers more than 2
pole breakers - some others being not tripping ever at 135% of rating
and buss failures.

As indicated in another post the link at
http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm
has a lot of information of FPE, much of it derived from an
investigation by the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

bud--

I have one of these panels in my house. I believe it was installed in
1962. I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload. They all do. Some newer breakers made in the 1980's do trip
faster though, but that would be the case for any brand (the newer ones
had white marking instead of red on the handle). The only one I had
that failed was a two pole breaker that was really two single pole
breakers ganged togather. I separated them and they tested and work
fine as single pole breakers (and I would trust two single pole
breakers ganged togather with a piece of metal anyway). Having said
all of this, I would be highly suspicious of any old FPE 2 pole
breakers. No real need to replace the whole panel if you can get new
breakers cheap enough. They charge an arm and a leg around here for a
new panel install (they don't allow DIY). The new breakers from Canada
are perfectly fine. Not sure where you can find those (I got one off
eBay).

wrote:

I have one of these panels in my house. I believe it was installed in
1962. I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload. They all do. Some newer breakers made in the 1980's do trip
faster though,

but that would be the case for any brand

Why?

bud--

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 07:28:51 -0500, "RBM" rbm2(remove
wrote:

You can find all kinds of negative information on blogs, as well as plenty

Why would anyone believe anything posted to a BLOG?
You get more misinformation on them things than you do on these
newsgroups.... If you want solid facts, read articles on ftc.gov
(federal trade commission) and others that have substance.

of law suits against them. When I started in the electrical trade in the
early seventies, most supply companies carried two brands of panels. One
would be the quality brand like Square D or Murray, and the other would be
the cheap brand which was almost always FPE. We as installers generally
hated them and all had stories of how they don't trip, etc etc. The truth is
the panel does carry a U.L. label as do the breakers, and although FPE has
been out of business for many years, circuit breakers for their stab-lok
panels are still being made today. They were being made by the American
Circuit breaker co. which sold out to another company who's name escapes me,
and they too carry a U.L. label



"rile" wrote in message
roups.com...
My son bought my father-in-law's house three years ago. During a
remodeling job, I did some minor electrical work for him and found out
that he has a Federal Pacific breaker box. Now I know that they have
problems especially with double pole breakers. My question is when did
this proble arise? This house was built in the early 1950's and all I
can find out about the problem seems to stem from around the middle
sixties.

RBM wrote:
You can find all kinds of negative information on blogs, as well as
plenty of law suits against them. When I started in the electrical
trade in the early seventies, most supply companies carried two
brands of panels. One would be the quality brand like Square D or
Murray, and the other would be the cheap brand which was almost
always FPE. We as installers generally hated them and all had stories
of how they don't trip, etc etc. The truth is the panel does carry a
U.L. label as do the breakers, and although FPE has been out of
business for many years, circuit breakers for their stab-lok panels
are still being made today. They were being made by the American
Circuit breaker co. which sold out to another company who's name
escapes me, and they too carry a U.L. label

The UL label simply means the stickered device won't cause a fire, it does
not speak otherwise to the quality, durability, or fitness for purpose. You
can get UL certification for a banana.

On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 19:44:33 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:


The UL label simply means the stickered device won't cause a fire, it does
not speak otherwise to the quality, durability, or fitness for purpose. You
can get UL certification for a banana.


Really? Where do I send the banana? I want to do this.

Once a FPE breaker trips ONCE its 33% less likely to EVER TRIP AGAIN!

Once a FPE breaker trips ONCE its 33% less likely to EVER TRIP AGAIN!

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload

Exactly how did you do this?
--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie

Tekkie® wrote:
posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.


I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload


Exactly how did you do this?

Momentarily short the wires?

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:49:46 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload

Exactly how did you do this?


I'd like to know too......


rj

no doubt intental short, I must admit I have done this myself.

Anytime I am doing electrical work I turn off the breaker, but
intentially short the box just in case I didnt turn off the proper one.
like screwdriver between screw and box.

have saved myself some nasty surprises....

Incidently this is how I found my FPE breakers dont always trip.

turned off what I thought was the right breaker in the middle of a job,
pushed the 2 wires together, they sparked, stuck together, and
literally fried. length turned brite red and blew apart. the short
loaded down the neighborhood, my neighbor was running a circular saw,
it quit during the short. my neighbor saw the flash and came over and
asked you still alive I was working in my garage, adding a outdoor
light.

You try your best but when doing jobs things happen....

In article ,
"RJ" wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:49:46 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload

Exactly how did you do this?


I'd like to know too......


"Me too."

I've used the dead short method of touching a hot wire to a neutral, but
see two problems with it:

- The wires weld together. Not badly, they can be pulled back apart
with some force, but there is definitely some metal transfer that
weakens at least one of the wire ends.

- The current is a quick spike of a couple hundred amps. This seems
like an inadequate test of a 20A breaker -- you still don't know if it
will trip at 25A as expected.

My understanding of fuses and breakers is that they typically will run
at 110% of the rated capacity indefinitely, and trip at currents
exceeding that. So to test a 20A breaker for instance, you would want
to put a ~25A load (maybe two blowdryers on a heavy gauge extension
cord) on it and wait for the trip. Any problems with this method (or is
there a better one)?

It might take a while for the trip to happen... one of my books is
showing that a typical 15A fuse will take 3.9 seconds to trip on 30A,
and a full 31 seconds if it's a "time delay" type. Breakers have
similar behavior: 150% of capacity will take a minute to cause a trip.

You are certainly right about tripping being a function of load and time. To
me it seems a little risky to use wiring, receptacles, and other devices of
unknown integrity for load testing of suspected breakers. I would be
inclined to remove the breaker and devise some sort of load with a 12 volt
car battery. I think high beam headlamps take about 5 amperes each.

Don Young
"chocolatemalt" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"RJ" wrote:

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:49:46 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload

Exactly how did you do this?


I'd like to know too......


"Me too."

I've used the dead short method of touching a hot wire to a neutral, but
see two problems with it:

- The wires weld together. Not badly, they can be pulled back apart
with some force, but there is definitely some metal transfer that
weakens at least one of the wire ends.

- The current is a quick spike of a couple hundred amps. This seems
like an inadequate test of a 20A breaker -- you still don't know if it
will trip at 25A as expected.

My understanding of fuses and breakers is that they typically will run
at 110% of the rated capacity indefinitely, and trip at currents
exceeding that. So to test a 20A breaker for instance, you would want
to put a ~25A load (maybe two blowdryers on a heavy gauge extension
cord) on it and wait for the trip. Any problems with this method (or is
there a better one)?

It might take a while for the trip to happen... one of my books is
showing that a typical 15A fuse will take 3.9 seconds to trip on 30A,
and a full 31 seconds if it's a "time delay" type. Breakers have
similar behavior: 150% of capacity will take a minute to cause a trip.

DONT use 12 V, dc is different, and test only at 120V

shorting out a 120 volt breaker on 12 volts may permanetely daage the
breaker. DC can arc a lot

Note: FPE breakers are known for having once been tripped by a short
they are 33% less likely to EVER trip again.

So load testing MIGHT be a bad idea.!

wrote:
turned off what I thought was the right breaker in the middle of a job,
pushed the 2 wires together, they sparked, stuck together, and
literally fried. length turned brite red and blew apart. the short
loaded down the neighborhood, my neighbor was running a circular saw,
it quit during the short. my neighbor saw the flash and came over and
asked you still alive I was working in my garage, adding a outdoor
light.

That's what you get for wiring the garage lights with 00 wire.

--
If John McCain gets the 2008 Republican Presidential nomination,
my vote for President will be a write-in for Jiang Zemin.

RJ posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 21:49:46 -0500, Tekkie® wrote:

posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

I've load tested all of the breakers to see if they trip on
overload

Exactly how did you do this?


I'd like to know too......


rj

One should be using a circuit breaker tester - yes they are made.

--
My boss said I was dumb and apathetic.
I said I don't know and I don't care...

Tekkie