On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 08:04:38 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

This is my first time installing cat5 cable in my house and I am unsure
how to connect to RJ45 jacks that I need to put in the wall.

The basic idea is to build a "star" (also known as home run).
Everything comes to a central location, where you locate a 10/100baseT
ethernet switch. You can add additional ethernet switches at any
endpoint that needs more than one connection (forming a "tree").

I've installed a WISP antenna 75 feet from the house & will be routing
the outdoor cat5 cable into the middle of the house (another 25 or so
feet) -

Very vague. What manner of hardware are you installing? Most WISP
system use PoE to the radio/antenna on the roof, and ethernet to some
manner of power injector. From there, you run ethernet to a local
router, and then to the central ethernet switch. The router might be
built into your unspecified model WISP radio. Note that I said
"switch", not "hub". You do not want a hub.

Hopefully, you didn't run 75ft of coaxial cable between the radio and
the antenna. That's much too long. Cable losses at 2.4GHz are quite
high.

Pictured here is what I have in the wall in the middle of the house:
http://picturepush.com/public/7212874

My Zircon stud sensor sorta works. However, I cheat. I have photos
of what's inside my walls from before the drywall and paneling was
added.

While it's nice to have the outlet box attached to a stud, it's not
necessary. There are rework PVC device boxes, that attach to the
drywall.

RJ45 jacks do not cause loss. Un-connected jacks do not cause loss.
Unterminated cables do not cause loss. The catch is that you have to
install one cable for each RJ45 jack. Since CAT5e has 4 pairs of
wires, and ethernet uses only 2 pairs, you can split the cable pairs
and wire two jacks on the wall jacks, and attach two RJ45 plugs at the
other end of the cable. However, if you're using PoE on this segment,
you'll need all 4 pairs to the wall jack.

Since you're running CAT5 through the wall base plate, you'll need to
drill a large enough hole to accommodate the number of cables you
need. If you only want to run one cable, then perhaps adding an
ethernet switch near the wall plate might be easier.

I'm not sure if it's best to route the wire all the way from the antenna
to the middle of the house (about 75 feet to the house and another 25 or
30 feet zig-zagging to the crawl space and then up to the newly drilled
hole at the wall).

Hint:
a "wire" is a single length of insulated copper.
a "cable" is a collection of wires enclosed by a vinyl jacket.

Hopefully, this cable is CAT5e. It will need to run from the rooftop
mast, to the nearest convenient location that has AC power (for PoE).
That's usually also the location of the central ethernet switch.

I'm going to put a wall plate at the wall in the middle of the house; but
should I also put a wall plate where the wire enters the house?

No. Wall plates are NOT waterproof. You should use a proper cable
entry. For rooftops, that's a "rams head". For wall entry, cable
entry with a drip loop. There are some tricks involved (such as
slightly angling the hole in the wall upward so accumulated water
drips outward). Also, leave a service loop for anything that you
install in the wall. Talk to a DBS satellite dish installer for
clues.

Does breaking the line into sections degrade the signal?

Nope, as long as there is an ethernet switch between each segment.
However, if you're talking about running multiple segments and just
splicing them together, that also works. I suggest you terminate each
end with an RJ45 plug, and use a coupler to make the connection. It's
a bit more complex, but much easier to troubleshoot when the kids,
puppy, or mice, chew up the cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/260915346939

If I do put a wall plate at the entrance to the house, I'll likely put
the POE (power over ethernet) at the wall inside the house (otherwise it
will go in the middle of the house next to the WRT54G router).

Do NOT hide anything INSIDE the wall. One little spark or overheated
power device, and you'll have a fire in an inaccessible location.

When I put a wall plate in the middle of the house, would you add a
second female jack (just in case for future use?). Or does that also
degrade the signal?

Yes. As long as the 2nd jack is on a separate CAT5e cable, there's no
deterioration in the signal. The problem is that there's NEVER enough
ethernet wall jacks. If you expect that you'll need one, then install
two. If you think you'll need two, then install four. 6 jacks is
about the limit. Extra cable is cheaper than the time to do it over
again.

There are also ethernet switches that will fit in the wall, but you
won't like the price:
http://www.amazon.com/3CNJ220-CRM-4-Port-100Mbps-Ethernet-Switch/dp/B0001DHE0U

In summary, I'm not sure if I should strive to keep the line intact and
how I should terminate it.

Any advice?

I think you're over your head a little. Best to Google the internet
for CAT5 and ethernet installation instructions and examples. Also,
talk to a professional cable installer before you make a major
mistake. The danger is that if you have a house fire, and the fire
inspector finds non-code compliant creative wiring, you run the risk
of having your insurance company declare that you were the cause of
the fire.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

I think you're over your head a little. Best to Google the internet
for CAT5 and ethernet installation instructions and examples. Also,
talk to a professional cable installer before you make a major
mistake. The danger is that if you have a house fire, and the fire
inspector finds non-code compliant creative wiring, you run the risk
of having your insurance company declare that you were the cause of
the fire.


Is there any code for wire beneath 48V? I though the whole idea behind
low voltage wiring is that it is code free. Otherwise you would need an
electrician to wiring up a new phone outlet.

The trouble with networking experts is these are all the guys who were
run out of the alarm business when ADT and others started their free
installations. They became networking experts, home theater experts,
etc. Not that I blame them for finding new jobs where they can be self
employed, but quality is all over the map.

Don't get me wrong. Some of these networking guys are really sharp. I
use a local guy for auto parts that is a CNI. Trouble is it is more
profitable to sell parts on the net than compete with the rest of the
networking firms. I have a friend that does networking strictly for
commercial and municipal jobs, and survives pretty much by having a long
list of jobs well done. Nobody in city hall wants to be the guy that
hired the clown network company, and so they write the bids with enough
legal mumbo jumbo that few first timers want to compete.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:41:38 -0800, miso wrote:

Is there any code for wire beneath 48V?

Yep. It's called signaling or communications cable. Network wiring
and telco are covered as NEC article 800.
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_article_communications_circuits/
The basic it is to keep the stuff away from power cables.

I though the whole idea behind
low voltage wiring is that it is code free. Otherwise you would need an
electrician to wiring up a new phone outlet.

There's no such thing as code free. If the NFPA had its way, there
would be specifications for the toilet paper.

The trouble with networking experts is these are all the guys who were
run out of the alarm business when ADT and others started their free
installations. They became networking experts, home theater experts,
etc. Not that I blame them for finding new jobs where they can be self
employed, but quality is all over the map.

Nope. Real cable experts are usually BICSI certified:
https://www.bicsi.org/single.aspx?l=2464,4192,4194
Note that BISCI also has a wireless designer certification:
https://www.bicsi.org/double.aspx?l=2572&r=2574
I'm tempted. Only $345... ouch.

However, I agree about the quality. I only got the jobs that no sane
and competent installer would accept. If I make a profit, I might
actually document my work or label a few things.

Don't get me wrong. Some of these networking guys are really sharp. I
use a local guy for auto parts that is a CNI. Trouble is it is more
profitable to sell parts on the net than compete with the rest of the
networking firms. I have a friend that does networking strictly for
commercial and municipal jobs, and survives pretty much by having a long
list of jobs well done. Nobody in city hall wants to be the guy that
hired the clown network company, and so they write the bids with enough
legal mumbo jumbo that few first timers want to compete.

Yep. However, the reason is different. The convoluted specs are
usually to avoid legal complications and to cover the customers ass
when the whole mess goes to litigation. I've been asked to carry
oversight insurance, with the customer as the sole beneficiary, just
in case they screwed up the job specifications. (Hint: I don't do
much wiring these daze).

--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
The basic idea is to build a "star" (also known as home run). Everything
comes to a central location, where you locate a 10/100baseT ethernet
switch.

I now realize a 'star' topology is what I want (but I didn't know that
until now).

I was initially thinking of using my Linksys WRT54G router as the center
of the star!

That's why I was asking about additional jacks.

I was going to go from the four LAN ports of the WRT54G to the WII in the
game room (via additional wall jacks).

I think now that was a bad idea (right?).

The 'better' idea, as you noted, is to use an 'active ethernet switch' as
the center of the star. Right?

Drawing it on paper, does this make sense of what you suggested?
1. WISP antenna ~75 feet from the house
2. Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio set up in router mode & DHCP server
3. POE just inside the house (it's an indoor Ubiquiti 15 volt POE unit)
4. Active 10/100 Ethernet switch just inside the house
5a. Out of the switch, one wire goes to the office (25 feet away)
5b. From there it goes to the Linksys WRT54G wireless router
5c. From there, the signal goes to the wireless devices scattered about
6a. Out of the switch, another wire goes to the game room (25 feet away)
6b. From a game room wall jack, a jumper goes to the WII
6c. This will be a different IP address - but that should be OK (right?)

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Most WISP system use PoE to the radio/antenna on the roof,
and ethernet to some manner of power injector.
From there, you run ethernet to a local router, and then to the
central ethernet switch. The router might be built into your
unspecified model WISP radio. Note that I said
"switch", not "hub". You do not want a hub.

I had to look up hub versus switches versus routers.
- Hub: What goes in one port goes out all the others
- Switch: What goes in one port is 'intelligently' sent to another
- Router: Connects two networks to share the Internet connection

My desired setup is similar to what you've described.

- The 19 dBi planar antenna is outside on a pole pointed at the WISP AP
- (The antenna is not on the roof because I break tiles every time I go
on the roof!)
- Connected to the antenna is an outdoor Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio
- That outdoor radio is currently configured as a router (not a bridge)
and it is set up to serve DHCP addresses and perform NAT
- From there the outdoor cat5 cable connects to a Ubiquiti 15volt POE
- From the POE, is up to me.

All I need is two wired points inside the house:
- The office (which is in a central location & where I'll put the WRT54G
broadband wireless router)
- The game room (which has a WII that I'd like to connect by wire)

I'd like the 'star' topology previously mentioned.

I'm confused if I need the "active 10/100 Ethernet switch" because I'm
wondering if the Linksys WRT54G is 'already' an active 10/100 Ethernet
switch.

Is it?

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Hopefully, you didn't run 75ft of coaxial cable between the radio and
the antenna. That's much too long. Cable losses at 2.4GHz are quite
high.

I don't currently have any coaxial cable.

The Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio is actually screwed directly onto the back
of the antenna at the top of the mast. (Later, I'll add a ten-foot
pigtail coaxial cable to bring the radio to the bottom of the antenna for
ease of maintenance.)

From the radio at the top of the antenna, it's all outdoor cat5 cable
(twisted pair, UV protected, 24 AWG, solid conductor, $75 for 500 feet at
Home Depot).

The only reason the antenna is about 75 feet from the house is that's the
highest point. The roof is clay and I keep breaking the tiles when I go
up there so I vowed to not put anything on the roof itself!

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
While it's nice to have the outlet box attached to a stud, it's not
necessary. There are rework PVC device boxes, that attach to the
drywall.

You're clever.

I had not mentioned it, but, you noticed I went to a lot of trouble to
locate the drill hole next to a stud so that I could attach the cat5 box
to the stud.

I actually drilled DOWN from the wall to the crawl space even though the
picture shows the drill bit coming up (so I could show the drill bit).

For wall entry, cable entry with a drip loop.
There are some tricks involved (such as slightly angling the hole
in the wall upward so accumulated water drips outward).
Also, leave a service loop for anything that you install in the wall.

I haven't drilled the entrance hole to the house yet - so that's
EXCELLENT ADVICE!

I don't plan on putting anything "in the wall" - but - I might put the
POE and/or the suggested ethernet switch in the crawl space (there is
power cabling all over the crawl space but no actual outlets).

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
RJ45 jacks do not cause loss. Un-connected jacks do not cause loss.
Unterminated cables do not cause loss.

Thanks; that's what I needed to know!

The catch is that you have to install one cable for each RJ45 jack.

I have plenty of cable (I bought 500 feet of Home Depot outdoor rated
cat5 cable for $75) and the entire run is only about 100 feet to the
newly drilled hole in the office at the center of the house.

Since CAT5e has 4 pairs of wires, and ethernet uses only 2 pairs,
you can split the cable pairs and wire two jacks on the wall jacks
and attach two RJ45 plugs at the other end of the cable.

That's good to know!

That means if I put the POE & ethernet switch on an indoor shelf in the
garage where the outdoor cat5 enters the house, I can then connect two
female ports of the ethernet switch to two male RJ45 connectors on a
single run of 25 foot cat5 cable to the center of the house under the
crawl space and up through the hole I already drilled, and then put TWO
female jacks at the center of the house in that wall (both using the same
cat5 cable).

I had not realized this was a possibility until you mentioned it just
now. Thanks.

PS: Thanks for admonishing me on the 'wire' versus 'cable' (I'll use the
term "cable" as there are no wires involved).

However, if you're using PoE on this segment, you'll need
all 4 pairs to the wall jack.

Again, very good information.

That means I probably want the POE earlier on in the star topology rather
than later on if I plan on using a single cable to serve two connections.

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think you're over your head a little.

Just a little?

Based on the advice, I think I'll go with the star topology.

I think I'll add the active ethernet switch (although I'm confused
whether the Linksys WRT54G router is 'already' an ethernet switch).

I think I'll double the amount of wall jacks that I think I need.

And, if the POE isn't involved, I'll put two jacks on a single cable.

This is how I'm leaning - now that I've been given the Christmas gift of
all this great advice:

1. 19 dBi WISP antenna
2. Ubiquiti Bullet M2 router (Radio mode, DHCP server, NAT turned on)
3. No pigtail currently - but a 10-foot N pigtail would bring the radio
down to ground level for ease of maintenance
4. From the bullet, out comes RJ45 outdoor cat5 cabling
5. That goes to a 15 volt Ubiquiti POE which must be located inside the
house (it's not an outdoor POE)
6. I'll drill a hole (upward at an angle) into the garage wall to enter
the house.
7. At that point, I can add an inexpensive 10/100 four-port active
ethernet switch (any recommendations on which one?)
8. From that central point of the star, I can send one cable with two
connectors on it to the office in the center of the house so that there
are two female ports in the wall where I've already drilled a hole.
8a. At the office, I'll connect one of those two ports to a Linksys
WRT54G router to serve the wireless devices in the household.
9. From the ethernet switch, I can send another cable to the game room
where another two ports can be placed in the wall.
9a. From one of those game room ports, I can connect a cat5 cable to the
WII

Total equipment:
- cat5 cable (outdoor rated, 24 AWG, solid conductor, 500 feet available)
- basic 10/100 active Ethernet switch (to act as the center of the star)
- one cable with two plugs going to the office
- two-port wall plate at the office (one port connected to WRT54G router)
- one cable with two plugs going to the game room
- two-port wall plate at the game room (one port connected to Wii game)

One question that remains is that with this setup, all the devices except
the game room devices will be on the other side of the home WRT54G router.

But, the game room will be only on the other side of the radio/router at
the antenna.

I think that means they'll both be on non-routable networks - but that
the game room will be behind only one router (the one on the antenna)
while the office equipment will be being two routers (the antenna radio
plus the Linksys WRT54G).

Does my understanding of the recommended setup make sense given all the
advice provided?

On Dec 25, 3:39*am, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think you're over your head a little.

Just a little? *

Based on the advice, I think I'll go with the star topology.

I think I'll add the active ethernet switch (although I'm confused
whether the Linksys WRT54G router is 'already' an ethernet switch)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the need
for another switch. From the description, you add a
switch where the WISP enters the house, then run
two ethernet connections from there to the office
where the wirless router will be going. But that router
will have 4 ports, so why the seperate switch?

I'd do a run straight from the antenna to a suitable location
for the wireless router which sounds like the office.
Then I'd do any wired runs that
are practical from the router. Typical router supports 4
wired connections. Do you need more than that?
If you want 3 or 4 in the game room, then I'd put a
switch there.

I'd power the WISP where the router is, or split it off
near where it enters the house if that is more practical.

Only other issues I'd be concerned with is that the wire
used for the low voltage power is of sufficient gauge for
the length. Perhaps somewhere in the instructions it
says it's good for distance X, etc. Or if you're just
using the total length
of wire came that with it, then you know it's OK.

The other issue is lightning protection. That outdoor
antenna should be directly grounded. And there
should be lightning protection on the wires that
enter the building. Curious, presumably the WISP
setup came with instructions. What do they say
about this?

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:39:35 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think I'll add the active ethernet switch (although I'm confused
whether the Linksys WRT54G router is 'already' an ethernet switch).

All ethernet devices are "active". The last time there was a
"passive" hub was with ARCNET. It's just an "ethernet switch".

The added ethernet switch is there simply to allow for more ethernet
ports than the 4 provided by your WRT54G router.

I think I'll double the amount of wall jacks that I think I need.

This will require a bit of planning. If this was new work, the idea
would be to have a jack on every wall. That's often overkill for
rooms that are unlikely to need more than one. The balance is to have
a jack on each wall that straddles a door. That's because it's rather
awkward and messy to run cables across a doorway. Therefore, try to
locate your wall jacks so that any cords do not cross walk ways,
doors, and traffic lanes.

And, if the POE isn't involved, I'll put two jacks on a single cable.

I suggest you spend the money and use separate cables to each wall
jack. Eventually, you're going to install an NAS (network attached
storage) server, for storing such things as videos, photos, music,
apps, and junk. Gigabit ethernet is the way to get decent speed out
of NAS servers. It's also useful if you use a DVR that allows saving
shows on a PC. Anyway, gigabit requires all 8 wires.

Unfortunately, you bought your CAT5 at Home Despot and therefore
overpaid. Depending on your topology, my guess is about 50ft per
cable run. At that rate, your 500ft roll will not be enough cable. If
you're short on cash, split the cable between two jacks, but my
recommendation is to spend the money on more cable.

1. 19 dBi WISP antenna
2. Ubiquiti Bullet M2 router (Radio mode, DHCP server, NAT turned on)

Holdit. We may have a problem. It appears that you are using "double
NAT", where you have two devices doing NAT (the UBNT M2 and the
WRT54G). If you're going to do anything that involves incoming
connections (VoIP, remote desktop, games), you'll probably find it
easier to have a single easily configurable NAT device. I suggest you
turn OFF the DHCP server and NAT in the UBNT M2 radio, and leave the
NAT to the WRT54G. This way, the UBNT M2 delivers a single routable
IP address from the ISP to the WRT54G which then provides non-routable
IP addresses to all the home devices. Note that there's really
nothing fatally wrong with double NAT. It's just easier to deal with
single NAT.

3. No pigtail currently - but a 10-foot N pigtail would bring the radio
down to ground level for ease of maintenance

Maybe. At 10ft, I suggest LMR400 cable and Type N connector. At
2.4GHz, 10ft of LMR400 has a loss of about 0.6dB or about 10%. Good
enough. If you go to the next size smaller cable, LMR195, the loss is
1.85dB or about 35% loss. That's still acceptable depending on how
strong a signal you're getting from your WISP.

However, the UBNT Bullet M2 radios were not designed to mount or
operate in that manner. They were made to screw into the back of the
antenna panel. There's also a risk of getting water into the coax
cable, which will dramatically increase losses. You'll need to
waterproof the RF connectors. I use 1" wide PTFE plumbing tape (1/2"
will work and is easier to find) around the connector and partly up
the coax cable. Then, wrap the PTFE tape with common electrical tape
to keep it in place. Spray with clear Krylon for UV protection.

4. From the bullet, out comes RJ45 outdoor cat5 cabling

Careful with the grade of cable. Outdoor can be anything from UV
proof CAT5 to gel filled, armored, thick jacket, and shielded cable. A
non-penetrating (extra thick) outer jacket is probably all you'll
need.

5. That goes to a 15 volt Ubiquiti POE which must be located inside the
house (it's not an outdoor POE)

Note that most UBNT PoE is not 802.3af compliant and is therefore
non-standard. This is not really a problem, just a warning to be
careful what you plug into the device. Ubiquiti claims that they went
this route to save costs.

6. I'll drill a hole (upward at an angle) into the garage wall to enter
the house.

Think about using some kind of tubular feed through. Don't forget the
drip loop on the outside. Nail the cable to the wall with something
like this:
http://www.cablegiant.com/default.aspx?p_id=4&product_id=1490
Black is probably better than white for UV resistance.

7. At that point, I can add an inexpensive 10/100 four-port active
ethernet switch (any recommendations on which one?)

You don't need an ethernet switch here unless you want wired internet
access in the garage. The easiest way is to just attach an RJ45 plug
to the end of some more CAT5. Plug it into the PoE adapter and
continue to run the cable into the house.

However, if you want ethernet in the garage, there's an IP layout
problem. The cable run between the UBNT M2 and the WRT54G WAN port
will have a single IP address from the ISP on it (if you turn off NAT
in the UBNT M2). If you install an extra ethernet switch in this
line, there's only one IP address for 2 devices to fight over, which
won't work. The right way(tm) to run ethernet in the garage is to
bring a 2nd cable back from a LAN port on the WRT54G back to the
garage for users. I wouldn't bother.

I don't really have any favorite ethernet switches. I like Netgear
switches because of the metal case, which is easier to mount and tends
to survive better than plastic cases. Netgear also tends to use 12V
power supplies, which I find more reliable than 5V power supplies. 12V
is also better for battery backup (12v gel cell and charger). However,
even the 12V supplies have problems:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/repair/slides/Netgear%20DSA-12R-12.html

8. From that central point of the star, I can send one cable with two
connectors on it to the office in the center of the house so that there
are two female ports in the wall where I've already drilled a hole.

If you must... I would still suggest running 2 cables.

Incidentally, I've found a LAN cable continuity tester especially
useful for catching my wiring errors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220895828757

8a. At the office, I'll connect one of those two ports to a Linksys
WRT54G router to serve the wireless devices in the household.

Close. One CAT5 cable from the PoE adapter in the garage to the WAN
(internet) port of the WRT54G. The rest of the house wiring
originates from the LAN ports on the WRT54G. The 2nd CAT5 cable,
going back to the garage, goes to one of the WRT54G LAN ports, and
might be used run a 2nd wireless access point.

9. From the ethernet switch, I can send another cable to the game room
where another two ports can be placed in the wall.

I'm assuming this ethernet switch is in the same general area as the
WRT54G. Essentially, it's a port expander. My guess is about 8 ports
minimum. 16 ports doesn't cost that much more.

9a. From one of those game room ports, I can connect a cat5 cable to the
WII

Total equipment:
- cat5 cable (outdoor rated, 24 AWG, solid conductor, 500 feet available)
- basic 10/100 active Ethernet switch (to act as the center of the star)
- one cable with two plugs going to the office
- two-port wall plate at the office (one port connected to WRT54G router)
- one cable with two plugs going to the game room
- two-port wall plate at the game room (one port connected to Wii game)

One question that remains is that with this setup, all the devices except
the game room devices will be on the other side of the home WRT54G router.

But, the game room will be only on the other side of the radio/router at
the antenna.

See my comments on the cable run between the PoE adapter in the garage
and the WRT54G WAN (internet) port. It should not have any additional
devices connected to this run. ALL (and I do mean ALL) user devices
connect either to the 4 LAN ports on the WRT54G, or the ports on the
nearby 8/16 port ethernet switch. That puts them all on the same side
of the router.

I think that means they'll both be on non-routable networks - but that
the game room will be behind only one router (the one on the antenna)
while the office equipment will be being two routers (the antenna radio
plus the Linksys WRT54G).

Well, I can make a drawing and post it if necessary, but I think the
previous paragraph is clear enough. It would easier if you did the
necessary documentation (because I'm lazy).

Does my understanding of the recommended setup make sense given all the
advice provided?

Mostly yes. However, it's difficult to offer advice when you severely
limit your descriptions. I like numbers. Model numbers, distances,
sizes, lengths, distances, heights, and all the other stuff it takes
to make real calculations. The quality of the answers you receive
will largely depend on the quality of the numbers that you supply.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:50:54 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Most WISP system use PoE to the radio/antenna on the roof,
and ethernet to some manner of power injector.
From there, you run ethernet to a local router, and then to the
central ethernet switch. The router might be built into your
unspecified model WISP radio. Note that I said
"switch", not "hub". You do not want a hub.

I had to look up hub versus switches versus routers.
- Hub: What goes in one port goes out all the others
- Switch: What goes in one port is 'intelligently' sent to another
- Router: Connects two networks to share the Internet connection

My desired setup is similar to what you've described.

- The 19 dBi planar antenna is outside on a pole pointed at the WISP AP
- (The antenna is not on the roof because I break tiles every time I go
on the roof!)
- Connected to the antenna is an outdoor Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio
- That outdoor radio is currently configured as a router (not a bridge)
and it is set up to serve DHCP addresses and perform NAT
- From there the outdoor cat5 cable connects to a Ubiquiti 15volt POE
- From the POE, is up to me.

All I need is two wired points inside the house:
- The office (which is in a central location & where I'll put the WRT54G
broadband wireless router)
- The game room (which has a WII that I'd like to connect by wire)

I'd like the 'star' topology previously mentioned.

I'm confused if I need the "active 10/100 Ethernet switch" because I'm
wondering if the Linksys WRT54G is 'already' an active 10/100 Ethernet
switch.

Is it?
It is. See my last posting

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:18:33 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
RJ45 jacks do not cause loss. Un-connected jacks do not cause loss.
Unterminated cables do not cause loss.

Thanks; that's what I needed to know!

The catch is that you have to install one cable for each RJ45 jack.

I have plenty of cable (I bought 500 feet of Home Depot outdoor rated
cat5 cable for $75) and the entire run is only about 100 feet to the
newly drilled hole in the office at the center of the house.

Since CAT5e has 4 pairs of wires, and ethernet uses only 2 pairs,
you can split the cable pairs and wire two jacks on the wall jacks
and attach two RJ45 plugs at the other end of the cable.

That's good to know!

That means if I put the POE & ethernet switch on an indoor shelf in the
garage where the outdoor cat5 enters the house, I can then connect two
female ports of the ethernet switch to two male RJ45 connectors on a
single run of 25 foot cat5 cable to the center of the house under the
crawl space and up through the hole I already drilled, and then put TWO
female jacks at the center of the house in that wall (both using the same
cat5 cable).

I had not realized this was a possibility until you mentioned it just
now. Thanks.

PS: Thanks for admonishing me on the 'wire' versus 'cable' (I'll use the
term "cable" as there are no wires involved).

However, if you're using PoE on this segment, you'll need
all 4 pairs to the wall jack.

Again, very good information.

That means I probably want the POE earlier on in the star topology rather
than later on if I plan on using a single cable to serve two connections.
I would not bother splitting the cable - you have enough cable to do
it right and run 2 cables - which will allow you to move to gigabyte
ethernet later if technology dictates. Gives you redundancy too.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:
(blah-blah=blah...)

I forgot to mumble something about the location of the wireless
router. In general, the place where all the wires come together in a
star topology is a rats nest of cables. In home installation, the
mess is usually hidden behind a desk, behind the TV, in a closet,
inside a drawer, or buried in the garage:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/mess01.html
The ethernet wires like to live close to the floor. However, wireless
likes to live as high as possible in order to avoid obstructions in
the house (i.e. furniture). It might be useful to locate the wireless
router on a high shelf, while hiding the ethernet switch somewhere
near the floor.

Incidentally, the stiff heavy black cables coming out of the back wall
are gel filled, shielded, and thick jacketed CAT5 cable. The ends are
terminated with special RJ45 plugs designed to accommodate the
oversized cable. There was enough spring tension in the cables to
unplug themselves.

The cables ran underground near a swimming pool which apparently
leaked a bit. That made the wires continuously wet. The jacket and
sticky gooey gel prevented moisture incursion into the cable, but did
nothing to prevent water from creeping over the outside of the cable,
and dripping into the cabinet box. A drip loop at the point of entry
would have prevented this, but that was impossible due to the method
of installation and the rather stiff cable. I ended up wrapping the
cables in a sponge, with vinyl tubing to a collection bucket.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Incidentally, I've found a LAN cable continuity tester especially
useful for catching my wiring errors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220895828757

I bought one of those on Ebay earlier this year from a Chinese seller.
The cost was $3.95, shipping (from China) was free and took 3 days,
and it came with a nicer than expected leather pouch. I figured it had
to be total crap and it probably is, but it seems to work rather well.

On 12/24/2011 5:54 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 16:41:38 -0800, wrote:

Is there any code for wire beneath 48V?

Yep. It's called signaling or communications cable. Network wiring
and telco are covered as NEC article 800.
http://ecmweb.com/nec/code-basics/electric_article_communications_circuits/
The basic it is to keep the stuff away from power cables.

I though the whole idea behind
low voltage wiring is that it is code free. Otherwise you would need an
electrician to wiring up a new phone outlet.

There's no such thing as code free. If the NFPA had its way, there
would be specifications for the toilet paper.

The trouble with networking experts is these are all the guys who were
run out of the alarm business when ADT and others started their free
installations. They became networking experts, home theater experts,
etc. Not that I blame them for finding new jobs where they can be self
employed, but quality is all over the map.

Nope. Real cable experts are usually BICSI certified:
https://www.bicsi.org/single.aspx?l=2464,4192,4194
Note that BISCI also has a wireless designer certification:
https://www.bicsi.org/double.aspx?l=2572&r=2574
I'm tempted. Only $345... ouch.

However, I agree about the quality. I only got the jobs that no sane
and competent installer would accept. If I make a profit, I might
actually document my work or label a few things.

Don't get me wrong. Some of these networking guys are really sharp. I
use a local guy for auto parts that is a CNI. Trouble is it is more
profitable to sell parts on the net than compete with the rest of the
networking firms. I have a friend that does networking strictly for
commercial and municipal jobs, and survives pretty much by having a long
list of jobs well done. Nobody in city hall wants to be the guy that
hired the clown network company, and so they write the bids with enough
legal mumbo jumbo that few first timers want to compete.

Yep. However, the reason is different. The convoluted specs are
usually to avoid legal complications and to cover the customers ass
when the whole mess goes to litigation. I've been asked to carry
oversight insurance, with the customer as the sole beneficiary, just
in case they screwed up the job specifications. (Hint: I don't do
much wiring these daze).

Lots of good information there. Regarding code, what cities have
inspection of data cables as part of the building inspection process.
Now I can see dumb ass stuff like running data and mains in the same
conduit producing an epic fail. But poor data wiring practices?

So I can see a code for everything, but how about an inspection for
everything?

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 20:53:23 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Incidentally, I've found a LAN cable continuity tester especially
useful for catching my wiring errors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220895828757

I bought one of those on Ebay earlier this year from a Chinese seller.
The cost was $3.95, shipping (from China) was free and took 3 days,
and it came with a nicer than expected leather pouch. I figured it had
to be total crap and it probably is, but it seems to work rather well.

Oops. I used a bad search term on eBay to find that. Using "LAN
cable tester" instead returned the cheap stuff. I couldn't resist
buying two of these:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/260837060639
to throw into my junk err... wiring box. $7. I think I paid $25
retail for the one I'm currently using.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On 12/24/2011 11:31 PM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
The basic idea is to build a "star" (also known as home run). Everything
comes to a central location, where you locate a 10/100baseT ethernet
switch.

I now realize a 'star' topology is what I want (but I didn't know that
until now).

I was initially thinking of using my Linksys WRT54G router as the center
of the star!

That's why I was asking about additional jacks.

I was going to go from the four LAN ports of the WRT54G to the WII in the
game room (via additional wall jacks).

I think now that was a bad idea (right?).

The 'better' idea, as you noted, is to use an 'active ethernet switch' as
the center of the star. Right?

Drawing it on paper, does this make sense of what you suggested?
1. WISP antenna ~75 feet from the house
2. Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio set up in router mode& DHCP server
3. POE just inside the house (it's an indoor Ubiquiti 15 volt POE unit)
4. Active 10/100 Ethernet switch just inside the house
5a. Out of the switch, one wire goes to the office (25 feet away)
5b. From there it goes to the Linksys WRT54G wireless router
5c. From there, the signal goes to the wireless devices scattered about
6a. Out of the switch, another wire goes to the game room (25 feet away)
6b. From a game room wall jack, a jumper goes to the WII
6c. This will be a different IP address - but that should be OK (right?)
This may be just a matter of terminology, but the router should have a
switch in it. I only add switches to get more ports. I've been using
these relatively cheap Dlink switches.
http://www.dlink.com/DGS-2208

There is some black magic in this DLINK box that my linksys router
reservations work with ports the Dlink switches. How it works is "not my
problem", so I never investigated further. Installation was just plug it
in, no need to read any manual.

You still need the router. But if the router doesn't have enough ports,
you add the switch. The router handles the WAN, handled DHCP and has the
firewall. Essentially the switches can "star" out of the router ports.

A bit OT, but the more wireless stuff I put on my network, the more
often my router out and out fails. ****ed me off since Linksys refuses
to upgrade the firmware and there are no 3rd party hacks for it. And the
choice is just to buy something else from Linksys or official Cisco
branded gear, with no assurance they are going to get better support.

I really wish there was an alternative to Cisco, but all the other
consumer gear is far worse, especially Netgear.

On 12/25/2011 11:31 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:50:54 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Most WISP system use PoE to the radio/antenna on the roof,
and ethernet to some manner of power injector.
From there, you run ethernet to a local router, and then to the
central ethernet switch. The router might be built into your
unspecified model WISP radio. Note that I said
"switch", not "hub". You do not want a hub.

I had to look up hub versus switches versus routers.
- Hub: What goes in one port goes out all the others
- Switch: What goes in one port is 'intelligently' sent to another
- Router: Connects two networks to share the Internet connection

My desired setup is similar to what you've described.

- The 19 dBi planar antenna is outside on a pole pointed at the WISP AP
- (The antenna is not on the roof because I break tiles every time I go
on the roof!)
- Connected to the antenna is an outdoor Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio
- That outdoor radio is currently configured as a router (not a bridge)
and it is set up to serve DHCP addresses and perform NAT
- From there the outdoor cat5 cable connects to a Ubiquiti 15volt POE
- From the POE, is up to me.

All I need is two wired points inside the house:
- The office (which is in a central location& where I'll put the WRT54G
broadband wireless router)
- The game room (which has a WII that I'd like to connect by wire)

I'd like the 'star' topology previously mentioned.

I'm confused if I need the "active 10/100 Ethernet switch" because I'm
wondering if the Linksys WRT54G is 'already' an active 10/100 Ethernet
switch.

Is it?
It is. See my last posting
Yes, my post as well. The additional switch is what you add to get more
ports. This could be in the closet, or you could put the switch in the
room itself where the wall jack is located if you need more than one
port in a room.

I noticed the Dlink unit I suggested is discontinued. Maybe Jeff can
comment on what magic if any is required so the switch maintained DHCP
reservations. [It is nice not to have the port assignments change. Not a
necessity, but still nice.]

I never owned a Dlink wireless router, but every other Dlink item I've
bought has been great. I don't think Dlink designs anything (I could be
wrong), but is like Beklin, i.e. they use ODMs. But so good thus far.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 06:25:33 -0800, wrote:

I don't see the need for another switch.
... you add a switch where the WISP enters the house,
then run two Ethernet connections from there to the office
where the wireless router will be going.
But that router will have 4 ports,
so why the separate switch?

You've hit the nail on the head for my 'original' confusion!

The original plan (one continuous cable) was as you stated:
- The cable from the antenna radio enters the house at the garage
- That cable then goes in the crawlspace to the upstairs office wall
- That cable ends at the upstairs office wall wallplate (drilled hole)
- The 15 volt POE is connected to that wallplate
- The other end of the POE goes to the Linksys WRT54G router input
.... this primary goal would work fine for all wireless devices ... except
those in the game room ... which are presumed too far away for good
reception.

My initial confusion was then HOW to wire the game room at the far end
(opposite the garage) of the house.

Since the same crawl space that serves the office also serves the game
room, I was trying to figure out HOW to wire the three in series:
(a) Garage entry point at the one end (b) Office drill hole in the middle
of the house (c) Game room drill hole at the other end of the house.

The initial question was how best to wire that!

On 12/25/2011 12:09 AM, Chuck Banshee wrote:
On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
While it's nice to have the outlet box attached to a stud, it's not
necessary. There are rework PVC device boxes, that attach to the
drywall.

You're clever.

I had not mentioned it, but, you noticed I went to a lot of trouble to
locate the drill hole next to a stud so that I could attach the cat5 box
to the stud.

I actually drilled DOWN from the wall to the crawl space even though the
picture shows the drill bit coming up (so I could show the drill bit).

For wall entry, cable entry with a drip loop.
There are some tricks involved (such as slightly angling the hole
in the wall upward so accumulated water drips outward).
Also, leave a service loop for anything that you install in the wall.

I haven't drilled the entrance hole to the house yet - so that's
EXCELLENT ADVICE!

I don't plan on putting anything "in the wall" - but - I might put the
POE and/or the suggested ethernet switch in the crawl space (there is
power cabling all over the crawl space but no actual outlets).

Besides the drip line, you might want to google waterproof cable entry

There a probably a thousand schemes for cable entry. I've even see hacks
of the cable entry used to get mains into the house. I got a bunch of
Andrews cable entries that showed up an a surplus shop. Andrews is what
they use in repeater sites, cellular sites, etc.

I've had really bad luck with Netgear, which is why I suggested Dlink.
YMMV. Dlink has metal gate versions of their gear.

Regarding double NAT, that is really annoying. Some routers can detect
the double NAT (don't ask me how) and warn you.

Most DSL modems are one port routers. This can lead to address
conflicts. I really wish the modem manufacturers just expected the
customer to use a router. I don't know one person with broadband that
doesn't have a router attached. AT$T stared selling DSL modems with
routers probably to stop the customer service calls.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 06:25:33 -0800, wrote:

I'd do a run straight from the antenna
to a suitable location for the wireless router
which sounds like the office.
Then I'd do any wired runs that are practical from the router.

That was the original plan.

Typical router supports 4 wired connections.
Do you need more than that?
Nope.

If you want 3 or 4 in the game room, then I'd put a switch there.

I only need ONE in the game room.

What you are saying hits on the original design objective.
I wish my command of English were better because I confused everyone (I
think) because I'm confused HOW to wire from the router to the game room
in this scenario.

Is this the correct scenario for the sum total of the house wiring?
1. Cat5 cable enters house at lowered garage at the near end of the house
2. Cat5 continues into crawl space & into office floor in house center
3. Cat5 ends at a single female RJ45 in the (centrally located) office
4. Another cat5 cable starts at another single RJ45 in the office wall
5. That (inactive) cat5 goes down into the crawl space to the game room
6. That (inactive) cat5 ends at a single RJ45 jack in the game room

If that is the correct wiring sequence, then I can do that relatively
easily.

Now comes the active connections.

In the office - this is what I was planning:
a) The POE sits in the office, one end connected to the wall plate.
b) The other end of the POE connects to the Linksys WRT54G broadband
wireless router (which also has four LAN ports in the back)
c) One LAN port of the WRT54G goes to the desktop computer
d) Another LAN port of the WRT54G goes to the Belkin VOIP desktop phone

At this point, everything but the game room is now working.
The problem is that the game room is too far away for a good signal out
of the WRT54G.

I have two options (I think) for the 'game room' at the far end of the
house:
I. Add a wireless "repeater" of some sort (the purchase & setup of which
I am unfamiliar)
II. Add a cabled connection

THIS IS THE PART THAT WAS CONFUSING ME IN THE BEGINNING:

If I go with the cabled connection to the game room, is it 'this' simple?
A. I attach a jumper from the LAN port on the back of the WRT54G to the
second office wall plate
....(this 2nd office wall plate is just a connection to the game room wall
plate through the crawl space)
B. I attach a jumper from the game room wall plate to the Wii

My original (I agree confused) question was: Is it 'that' simple to add
the game room as a wired connection?

NOTE: It seems weird to me to have a 'dead' wire simply going from the
office wall plate to the game room wall plate.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 06:25:33 -0800, wrote:

Only other issues I'd be concerned with is that the wire used for the
low voltage power is of sufficient gauge for the length.

The salmon colored Home Depot outdoor-rated solid conductor cat5 cable
($75 for 500 feet) is 24 AWG.

I'm guessing it's ~100 feet to the office in the center of the house
(including zig zags inherent in routing the wire).

The POE is 15 volts (but I have no problem buying a higher-voltage POE if
that is what is needed).

I guess I 'could' go up in size to 23 AWG cat5 cable - but the initial
comments intimated this gauge solid wire should be find for three times
the distance I'm calculating. (I think.)

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:05:34 -0800, miso wrote:

Regarding code, what cities have
inspection of data cables as part of the building inspection process.

In California, all the cities and counties have low voltage wiring
inspections as part of code compliance. In most cases, they simply
require compliance to the latest NEC wiring codes. They may add their
own details, but the basic requirements will need to be met.
Incidentally, the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz requires a permit for
any construction costing over $500.

Now I can see dumb ass stuff like running data and mains in the same
conduit producing an epic fail. But poor data wiring practices?

It's not the wiring that's the problem. It's how it's mounted and
what it's made from. For example, you need to run plenum cable
through air spaces. Plenum cable does not generate much smoke and
will therefore not asphixiate fire fighters. Proper support and using
riser cable for long vertical runs is simply best practices to prevent
the wire falling or breaking under its own weight.

Try this quiz for practice:
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/whats_wrong_122211/
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/whats_wrong_here_20100701/
Plenty mo
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/

So I can see a code for everything, but how about an inspection for
everything?

From my limited and somewhat dated experience, the inspector doesn't
care much about sloppy LAN wiring. He's probably a former electrician
or contractor and doesn't know much about LAN wiring anyway. He does
care that the low voltage wiring is at least 2" away from AC power,
that it doesn't share any wall outlet boxes, and that it's not running
high currents through the cabling. Incidentally, some IEEE spec
recommends 6" for 120vac and 12" for 240vac. Where there are few
cables, the inspection is rather superficial. Where there's a large
number of cables (hospital, corporate, data center, etc), the
inspections are more thorough.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

All ethernet devices are "active". The last time there was a "passive"
hub was with ARCNET. It's just an "ethernet switch".

Thank you for that advice (as I was parroting the word "active" from
advice given earlier in this helpful thread).

I do greatly appreciate this clarification (just as I did in 'wire'
versus 'cable').

I'm already confusing enough to try to understand so I'll try to use
'wire' as a verb; and to drop the 'active' adjective in ethernet switch.

You can ALWAYS correct me as I appreciate the subtleties!

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:26:00 -0800, miso wrote:

I noticed the Dlink unit I suggested is discontinued.

I bought several of those switches. Gigabit works well enough, but I
was never able to get close to wire speed with them. I'm not sure if
it's the switch or something else. Caveat Emptor.

Maybe Jeff can
comment on what magic if any is required so the switch maintained DHCP
reservations. [It is nice not to have the port assignments change. Not a
necessity, but still nice.]

Huh? An ethernet switch works on ISO layer 2 (MAC layer). DHCP works
on layers 2 and 3 (IP layer). As long as the switch can pass
broadcast packets (they all should), you should not have any problems
with DHCP broadcasts and negotiations. Each port on the switch has
its own MAC address. Your DHCP server should be picking up the MAC
address of the originating computer, not the local switch. If it
grabs the switch MAC address, then yes, it will try to change IP
address every time you move the ethernet port. However, that's NOT
the way it should work. Double checking:

C:\arp -a
Interface: 192.168.1.11 --- 0x4
Internet Address Physical Address Type
192.168.1.1 00-16-01-97-fd-a6 dynamic

Yep... that's the MAC address of my Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 wireless
router, and not the MAC address of the ethernet switch located between
my PC and the router.

I never owned a Dlink wireless router, but every other Dlink item I've
bought has been great. I don't think Dlink designs anything (I could be
wrong), but is like Beklin, i.e. they use ODMs. But so good thus far.

No comment. I won't generalize by manufacturer. Each one has their
winners and their losers. Dlink seems about average.

I recently picked up several Dlink DIR-601 (N150) wireless routers.
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=737
These are cheap and basic routers. So far, no problems or failures. I
expected problems due to the new "green" features, such as reducing
the ethernet transceiver power for short cable lengths, but so far, so
good.
http://www.dlinkgreen.com/greenproducts.asp

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:39:35 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think I'll add the active ethernet switch (although I'm confused
whether the Linksys WRT54G router is 'already' an ethernet switch).

All ethernet devices are "active". The last time there was a
"passive" hub was with ARCNET. It's just an "ethernet switch".

Not totally true. There were ethernet hubs. You likely can't buy one
any more.

from "state of the art netwoking":

By default hubs are single broadcast and single collision domain,
which means a device transmitting at a time, transmits to all the
devices in the network i.e. it broadcasts every time and every device
on the network listens to that broadcast and the one which it is meant
for picks it up. Its anyones guess that how efficiently it will
work, its okay with one or two or three devices in a network but with
network scaling up and more and more devices being connected to it the
network dies down. How often we listen the complaints in office or
home that the network being slow or down, if there are hubs in the
picture thats what going to happen, because there is no way with hubs
you can control LAN traffic congestion. One way to make an ever
increasing network is to segment a network in smaller part and thats
when the switches come into picture.

Switches are much more than multi-port repeaters, they are quite
intelligent in a way that they recognize the devices connected to it
by their addresses, so there is no need to broadcast every time one
device want to share something or exchange information with another
device. Its like now when hubs are gone I can talk to my friend by
addressing him by name, otherwise with hubs it was like I had to shout
from the rooftop for everybody to listen even though they didnt want
to, what I wanted to say to my friend. So the above explanations make
switches a single broadcast and multiple collision domains. It
broadcasts only in one scenario in which it does not have information
about a device in its mapping table for which a particular piece of
info is transmitted, so it broadcasts that info that one time and
after finding about the device which accepts that it updates it table.

Also hubs operate in half duplex while switches can operate in full
duplex mode too. Adding a switch adds a lot of functionality to the
network and improves the efficiency of the network too. You can still
use hubs as per your networking needs but try using at least one
switch in case of a multiple hub network by plugging the hubs to the
switch, but an all switched LAN is just always better and I think Ive
provided enough evidence for that.



The added ethernet switch is there simply to allow for more ethernet
ports than the 4 provided by your WRT54G router.

I think I'll double the amount of wall jacks that I think I need.

This will require a bit of planning. If this was new work, the idea
would be to have a jack on every wall. That's often overkill for
rooms that are unlikely to need more than one. The balance is to have
a jack on each wall that straddles a door. That's because it's rather
awkward and messy to run cables across a doorway. Therefore, try to
locate your wall jacks so that any cords do not cross walk ways,
doors, and traffic lanes.

And, if the POE isn't involved, I'll put two jacks on a single cable.

I suggest you spend the money and use separate cables to each wall
jack. Eventually, you're going to install an NAS (network attached
storage) server, for storing such things as videos, photos, music,
apps, and junk. Gigabit ethernet is the way to get decent speed out
of NAS servers. It's also useful if you use a DVR that allows saving
shows on a PC. Anyway, gigabit requires all 8 wires.

Unfortunately, you bought your CAT5 at Home Despot and therefore
overpaid. Depending on your topology, my guess is about 50ft per
cable run. At that rate, your 500ft roll will not be enough cable. If
you're short on cash, split the cable between two jacks, but my
recommendation is to spend the money on more cable.

1. 19 dBi WISP antenna
2. Ubiquiti Bullet M2 router (Radio mode, DHCP server, NAT turned on)

Holdit. We may have a problem. It appears that you are using "double
NAT", where you have two devices doing NAT (the UBNT M2 and the
WRT54G). If you're going to do anything that involves incoming
connections (VoIP, remote desktop, games), you'll probably find it
easier to have a single easily configurable NAT device. I suggest you
turn OFF the DHCP server and NAT in the UBNT M2 radio, and leave the
NAT to the WRT54G. This way, the UBNT M2 delivers a single routable
IP address from the ISP to the WRT54G which then provides non-routable
IP addresses to all the home devices. Note that there's really
nothing fatally wrong with double NAT. It's just easier to deal with
single NAT.

3. No pigtail currently - but a 10-foot N pigtail would bring the radio
down to ground level for ease of maintenance

Maybe. At 10ft, I suggest LMR400 cable and Type N connector. At
2.4GHz, 10ft of LMR400 has a loss of about 0.6dB or about 10%. Good
enough. If you go to the next size smaller cable, LMR195, the loss is
1.85dB or about 35% loss. That's still acceptable depending on how
strong a signal you're getting from your WISP.

However, the UBNT Bullet M2 radios were not designed to mount or
operate in that manner. They were made to screw into the back of the
antenna panel. There's also a risk of getting water into the coax
cable, which will dramatically increase losses. You'll need to
waterproof the RF connectors. I use 1" wide PTFE plumbing tape (1/2"
will work and is easier to find) around the connector and partly up
the coax cable. Then, wrap the PTFE tape with common electrical tape
to keep it in place. Spray with clear Krylon for UV protection.

4. From the bullet, out comes RJ45 outdoor cat5 cabling

Careful with the grade of cable. Outdoor can be anything from UV
proof CAT5 to gel filled, armored, thick jacket, and shielded cable. A
non-penetrating (extra thick) outer jacket is probably all you'll
need.

5. That goes to a 15 volt Ubiquiti POE which must be located inside the
house (it's not an outdoor POE)

Note that most UBNT PoE is not 802.3af compliant and is therefore
non-standard. This is not really a problem, just a warning to be
careful what you plug into the device. Ubiquiti claims that they went
this route to save costs.

6. I'll drill a hole (upward at an angle) into the garage wall to enter
the house.

Think about using some kind of tubular feed through. Don't forget the
drip loop on the outside. Nail the cable to the wall with something
like this:
http://www.cablegiant.com/default.aspx?p_id=4&product_id=1490
Black is probably better than white for UV resistance.

7. At that point, I can add an inexpensive 10/100 four-port active
ethernet switch (any recommendations on which one?)

You don't need an ethernet switch here unless you want wired internet
access in the garage. The easiest way is to just attach an RJ45 plug
to the end of some more CAT5. Plug it into the PoE adapter and
continue to run the cable into the house.

However, if you want ethernet in the garage, there's an IP layout
problem. The cable run between the UBNT M2 and the WRT54G WAN port
will have a single IP address from the ISP on it (if you turn off NAT
in the UBNT M2). If you install an extra ethernet switch in this
line, there's only one IP address for 2 devices to fight over, which
won't work. The right way(tm) to run ethernet in the garage is to
bring a 2nd cable back from a LAN port on the WRT54G back to the
garage for users. I wouldn't bother.

I don't really have any favorite ethernet switches. I like Netgear
switches because of the metal case, which is easier to mount and tends
to survive better than plastic cases. Netgear also tends to use 12V
power supplies, which I find more reliable than 5V power supplies. 12V
is also better for battery backup (12v gel cell and charger). However,
even the 12V supplies have problems:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/repair/slides/Netgear%20DSA-12R-12.html

8. From that central point of the star, I can send one cable with two
connectors on it to the office in the center of the house so that there
are two female ports in the wall where I've already drilled a hole.

If you must... I would still suggest running 2 cables.

Incidentally, I've found a LAN cable continuity tester especially
useful for catching my wiring errors.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220895828757

8a. At the office, I'll connect one of those two ports to a Linksys
WRT54G router to serve the wireless devices in the household.

Close. One CAT5 cable from the PoE adapter in the garage to the WAN
(internet) port of the WRT54G. The rest of the house wiring
originates from the LAN ports on the WRT54G. The 2nd CAT5 cable,
going back to the garage, goes to one of the WRT54G LAN ports, and
might be used run a 2nd wireless access point.

9. From the ethernet switch, I can send another cable to the game room
where another two ports can be placed in the wall.

I'm assuming this ethernet switch is in the same general area as the
WRT54G. Essentially, it's a port expander. My guess is about 8 ports
minimum. 16 ports doesn't cost that much more.

9a. From one of those game room ports, I can connect a cat5 cable to the
WII

Total equipment:
- cat5 cable (outdoor rated, 24 AWG, solid conductor, 500 feet available)
- basic 10/100 active Ethernet switch (to act as the center of the star)
- one cable with two plugs going to the office
- two-port wall plate at the office (one port connected to WRT54G router)
- one cable with two plugs going to the game room
- two-port wall plate at the game room (one port connected to Wii game)

One question that remains is that with this setup, all the devices except
the game room devices will be on the other side of the home WRT54G router.

But, the game room will be only on the other side of the radio/router at
the antenna.

See my comments on the cable run between the PoE adapter in the garage
and the WRT54G WAN (internet) port. It should not have any additional
devices connected to this run. ALL (and I do mean ALL) user devices
connect either to the 4 LAN ports on the WRT54G, or the ports on the
nearby 8/16 port ethernet switch. That puts them all on the same side
of the router.

I think that means they'll both be on non-routable networks - but that
the game room will be behind only one router (the one on the antenna)
while the office equipment will be being two routers (the antenna radio
plus the Linksys WRT54G).

Well, I can make a drawing and post it if necessary, but I think the
previous paragraph is clear enough. It would easier if you did the
necessary documentation (because I'm lazy).

Does my understanding of the recommended setup make sense given all the
advice provided?

Mostly yes. However, it's difficult to offer advice when you severely
limit your descriptions. I like numbers. Model numbers, distances,
sizes, lengths, distances, heights, and all the other stuff it takes
to make real calculations. The quality of the answers you receive
will largely depend on the quality of the numbers that you supply.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The balance is to have a jack on each wall that straddles a door.
That's because it's awkward and messy to run cables across a doorway.

Jeff's words are very interesting words of experience.

It's exactly what I don't have ... so I doubly appreciate the advice!

Especially since I'm finding walls within walls the more I drill deep!

Here are some pictures of the setup (to explain what I mean).

Picture taken just now of the WISP antenna setup (jury rigged with
extension cords and patch cords until I get the wiring figured out).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223272.gif

Here is what I found when I popped a hole in the game room wall!
(there was a hidden wall inside the outside wall!)
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif

On 12/25/2011 7:57 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:05:34 -0800, wrote:

Regarding code, what cities have
inspection of data cables as part of the building inspection process.

In California, all the cities and counties have low voltage wiring
inspections as part of code compliance. In most cases, they simply
require compliance to the latest NEC wiring codes. They may add their
own details, but the basic requirements will need to be met.
Incidentally, the Peoples Republic of Santa Cruz requires a permit for
any construction costing over $500.

Now I can see dumb ass stuff like running data and mains in the same
conduit producing an epic fail. But poor data wiring practices?

It's not the wiring that's the problem. It's how it's mounted and
what it's made from. For example, you need to run plenum cable
through air spaces. Plenum cable does not generate much smoke and
will therefore not asphixiate fire fighters. Proper support and using
riser cable for long vertical runs is simply best practices to prevent
the wire falling or breaking under its own weight.

Try this quiz for practice:
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/whats_wrong_122211/
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/whats_wrong_here_20100701/
Plenty mo
http://ecmweb.com/nec/whats_wrong_here/

So I can see a code for everything, but how about an inspection for
everything?

From my limited and somewhat dated experience, the inspector doesn't
care much about sloppy LAN wiring. He's probably a former electrician
or contractor and doesn't know much about LAN wiring anyway. He does
care that the low voltage wiring is at least 2" away from AC power,
that it doesn't share any wall outlet boxes, and that it's not running
high currents through the cabling. Incidentally, some IEEE spec
recommends 6" for 120vac and 12" for 240vac. Where there are few
cables, the inspection is rather superficial. Where there's a large
number of cables (hospital, corporate, data center, etc), the
inspections are more thorough.

I can certainly believe the common box issue. Well separated boxes would
never pass muster with the lady of the house. Bad enough they try to
block outlets with furniture. Your suggestion of wiring two walls on
either side of the door is a good one. Almost any wire in a room can be
tolerated except if it crosses a door.

Years ago I took a structured wiring "class" at CES, just to see what
was happening. This was before the WWW was cranking at 11, though it
existed. They suggested two networks per room. I could never get a
reasonable explanation for why this was a good idea. Not on different
walls, but two networks to the same outlet. Like the person saw it done,
but didn't really know why himself. Of course there is no shortage of
space on the wall outlet plate for multiple RJ45.

That was where I learned nearly everyone in the class was an ex-alarm
installer. Oy!

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 03:48:11 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

THIS IS THE PART THAT WAS CONFUSING ME IN THE BEGINNING:

If I go with the cabled connection to the game room, is it 'this' simple?
A. I attach a jumper from the LAN port on the back of the WRT54G to the
second office wall plate
...(this 2nd office wall plate is just a connection to the game room wall
plate through the crawl space)
B. I attach a jumper from the game room wall plate to the Wii

My original (I agree confused) question was: Is it 'that' simple to add
the game room as a wired connection?

Yes, it's that simple. That's exactly how I've done it myself.

NOTE: It seems weird to me to have a 'dead' wire simply going from the
office wall plate to the game room wall plate.

It's not dead once you connect devices to each end of it.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:26:00 -0800, miso wrote:

On 12/25/2011 11:31 AM, wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 07:50:54 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
Most WISP system use PoE to the radio/antenna on the roof,
and ethernet to some manner of power injector.
From there, you run ethernet to a local router, and then to the
central ethernet switch. The router might be built into your
unspecified model WISP radio. Note that I said
"switch", not "hub". You do not want a hub.

I had to look up hub versus switches versus routers.
- Hub: What goes in one port goes out all the others
- Switch: What goes in one port is 'intelligently' sent to another
- Router: Connects two networks to share the Internet connection

My desired setup is similar to what you've described.

- The 19 dBi planar antenna is outside on a pole pointed at the WISP AP
- (The antenna is not on the roof because I break tiles every time I go
on the roof!)
- Connected to the antenna is an outdoor Ubiquiti Bullet M2 radio
- That outdoor radio is currently configured as a router (not a bridge)
and it is set up to serve DHCP addresses and perform NAT
- From there the outdoor cat5 cable connects to a Ubiquiti 15volt POE
- From the POE, is up to me.

All I need is two wired points inside the house:
- The office (which is in a central location& where I'll put the WRT54G
broadband wireless router)
- The game room (which has a WII that I'd like to connect by wire)

I'd like the 'star' topology previously mentioned.

I'm confused if I need the "active 10/100 Ethernet switch" because I'm
wondering if the Linksys WRT54G is 'already' an active 10/100 Ethernet
switch.

Is it?
It is. See my last posting
Yes, my post as well. The additional switch is what you add to get more
ports. This could be in the closet, or you could put the switch in the
room itself where the wall jack is located if you need more than one
port in a room.

I noticed the Dlink unit I suggested is discontinued. Maybe Jeff can
comment on what magic if any is required so the switch maintained DHCP
reservations. [It is nice not to have the port assignments change. Not a
necessity, but still nice.]

I never owned a Dlink wireless router, but every other Dlink item I've
bought has been great. I don't think Dlink designs anything (I could be
wrong), but is like Beklin, i.e. they use ODMs. But so good thus far.


Being in the business, I have had more D-Link consumer equipment
failures than any other brand. Their commercial grade stuff is so-so.
The only one's I've used have failed within 5 years.
I'm currently using an Airlink NIMO router in the basement of my 2
storey house and the signal is useable throught the whole house and 15
feet behind the house on the patio as well.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:47:35 -0800, miso wrote:

Most DSL modems are one port routers. This can lead to address
conflicts.

That doesn't make sense. Why would a single port router lead to
address conflicts?

I really wish the modem manufacturers just expected the
customer to use a router. I don't know one person with broadband that
doesn't have a router attached. AT$T stared selling DSL modems with
routers probably to stop the customer service calls.

If the DSL modem already includes a router, why are people adding a
second router? I know there are some edge cases, but I'm wondering
about the majority.

On 12/25/2011 8:17 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 19:26:00 -0800, wrote:

I noticed the Dlink unit I suggested is discontinued.

I bought several of those switches. Gigabit works well enough, but I
was never able to get close to wire speed with them. I'm not sure if
it's the switch or something else. Caveat Emptor.

Maybe Jeff can
comment on what magic if any is required so the switch maintained DHCP
reservations. [It is nice not to have the port assignments change. Not a
necessity, but still nice.]

Huh? An ethernet switch works on ISO layer 2 (MAC layer). DHCP works
on layers 2 and 3 (IP layer). As long as the switch can pass
broadcast packets (they all should), you should not have any problems
with DHCP broadcasts and negotiations. Each port on the switch has
its own MAC address. Your DHCP server should be picking up the MAC
address of the originating computer, not the local switch. If it
grabs the switch MAC address, then yes, it will try to change IP
address every time you move the ethernet port. However, that's NOT
the way it should work. Double checking:

C:\arp -a
Interface: 192.168.1.11 --- 0x4
Internet Address Physical Address Type
192.168.1.1 00-16-01-97-fd-a6 dynamic

Yep... that's the MAC address of my Buffalo WHR-HP-G54 wireless
router, and not the MAC address of the ethernet switch located between
my PC and the router.

I never owned a Dlink wireless router, but every other Dlink item I've
bought has been great. I don't think Dlink designs anything (I could be
wrong), but is like Beklin, i.e. they use ODMs. But so good thus far.

No comment. I won't generalize by manufacturer. Each one has their
winners and their losers. Dlink seems about average.

I recently picked up several Dlink DIR-601 (N150) wireless routers.
http://www.dlink.com/products/?pid=737
These are cheap and basic routers. So far, no problems or failures. I
expected problems due to the new "green" features, such as reducing
the ethernet transceiver power for short cable lengths, but so far, so
good.
http://www.dlinkgreen.com/greenproducts.asp

I'm just running the switches in rooms (short cables), but a friend has
them going through the house, much like what the OP wants. I don't know
if he ever checked them for speed.

I might just get a Dlink router and chalk the Linksys box (not a cheap
one) up to experience. The one time I needed support from D-Link, it was
excellent. I can't say my experience with Linksys is the same.

I fired up some Dlink WAPs about two years ago. Old B stuff I no longer
used, but wanted to do a quick bridge. They still worked. I've had
Netgear stuff fail under two years. Twice. However, they may not suck
anymore. Or maybe I got junk. People complain about Netgear power
supplies, but mine were fine. I saved the wall warts and trashed the rest.

Netgear used to have a different name. It was a product of a merger IIRC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netgear

Ah yes, Bay Networks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-Link

According to wiki (which of course doesn't mean much), Netgear is
outsourced and D-Link is not. I don't get too bent out of shape
regarding OEMs, but I ODM-ing is another story. Support on ODM gear
tends to be poor. When you use ODMs, then you are just shipping black boxes.

I'm just appalled at the crappy service I got from Linksys on a box
close to $200.

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:39:05 -0500, wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 08:39:35 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sat, 24 Dec 2011 13:36:12 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
I think I'll add the active ethernet switch (although I'm confused
whether the Linksys WRT54G router is 'already' an ethernet switch).

All ethernet devices are "active". The last time there was a
"passive" hub was with ARCNET. It's just an "ethernet switch".

Not totally true. There were ethernet hubs. You likely can't buy one
any more.

Nope. There were no *PASSIVE* ethernet hubs. Passive means that
there's no powered electronics inside. You can combine (mix) data on
a token passing network, such are Arcnet, but not with ethernet. You
could consider 10base5 or 10base2 to be some manner of distributed
passive hub, but that's not common terminology.

from "state of the art netwoking":

If it's in print, it's obsolete.

By default hubs are single broadcast and single collision domain,
which means a device transmitting at a time, transmits to all the
devices in the network i.e. it broadcasts every time and every device
on the network listens to that broadcast and the one which it is meant
for picks it up.

Correct. A hub is also called a multiport repeater (especially in
IEEE documents, which drive me nuts).
http://www.linfo.org/hub.html

Detail:
1. A two port ethernet switch is called a bridge.
2. All 802.11 wireless is bridging. While there may be layer 3 IP
configuration for the router section, the actual wireless traffic is
bridging.
3.

It’s anyone’s guess that how efficiently it will
work, its okay with one or two or three devices in a network but with
network scaling up and more and more devices being connected to it the
network dies down.

I haven't seen many large hubs for perhaps 15 years. Compex TX3264U
64 port hub is one. Cisco had a large hubs, but I can't find the
number. They not common.

What limits the speed of the hub is that it can go no faster than the
rated wire speed of a single port. For example, if I had a 100baseT
hub, and was running a network backup between two ports, there would
be zero bandwidth available to the other ports. Needless to say, hubs
don't scale very well and are easily maxed out.

Ethernet switches don't have that problem. There are two basic types,
bus and crossbar. The bus type bandwidth is limited by the bandwidth
of the internal backplane. 2GHz is typical. You can transfer data
between any two ports at wire speed. You can also have independent
(non-blocking) transfers between two other ports, up until the
available bus bandwidth is exhausted. For example, a 100baseT switch,
with a 2GHz bus, can use up to:
2000 / 100 = 20 pairs of ports.
That limits this particular switch to 40 ports before it runs out of
bus bandwidth. The crossbar switch is simply a cross point switch
between any two ports. This becomes unwieldy with a large number of
ports, because every time you double the number of ports, you need 4
times the number of cross points. It is cheap and effective up to
about 32 ports. Of course, there are hybrids between the two types.

How often we listen the complaints in office or
home that the network being slow or down, if there are hubs in the
picture that’s what going to happen, because there is no way with hubs
you can control LAN traffic congestion. One way to make an ever
increasing network is to segment a network in smaller part and that’s
when the switches come into picture.

That's called collision domains.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collision_domain

Switches are much more than multi-port repeaters, they are quite
intelligent in a way that they recognize the devices connected to it
by their addresses, so there is no need to broadcast every time one
device want to share something or exchange information with another
device.

Not quite. Switches pass broadcast packets to all ports. This is one
of the big headaches with large wireless LANs, which can easily (and
quite often) end up belching nothing but broadcasts (ARP requests
etc). I've sniffed a (now defunct) muni wi-fi system that was doing
that. Little wonder users found it slow and useless.

What ethernet switches will NOT pass are collisions, corrupted
packets, malformed packets, garbage, jabber, and noise. Not passing
collisions is why it's called a collision domain.

It’s like now when hubs are gone I can talk to my friend by
addressing him by name, otherwise with hubs it was like I had to shout
from the rooftop for everybody to listen even though they didn’t want
to, what I wanted to say to my friend. So the above explanations make
switches a single broadcast and multiple collision domains. It
broadcasts only in one scenario in which it does not have information
about a device in its mapping table for which a particular piece of
info is transmitted, so it broadcasts that info that one time and
after finding about the device which accepts that it updates it table.

Discarding packets is something that an ethernet card, in a PC, does
quite easily and neatly. The card just looks at the header and
determines if the destination is the local device. If not, it just
drops the packet. This is all done in hardware on the ethernet card
and does not involve the CPU. The time wasted by dropping packets
cannot be recovered, which will certainly have an impact on speed, but
it will not slow down the computah.

Also hubs operate in half duplex while switches can operate in full
duplex mode too.

Yep.

Adding a switch adds a lot of functionality to the
network and improves the efficiency of the network too. You can still
use hubs as per your networking needs but try using at least one
switch in case of a multiple hub network by plugging the hubs to the
switch, but an all switched LAN is just always better and I think I’ve
provided enough evidence for that.

Sorta. Many managed ethernet switches (i.e. Cisco) allow some ports
to be configured as a hub. These are intended for monitoring traffic
on other ports. Since the monitor port will not be used for any
incoming traffic, there's no slow down caused by it monopolizing the
switch bus bandwidth. It's very handy for network management, traffic
monitoring, diagnostics, snooping, and playing around. Otherwise,
hubs are a bad nightmare that are thankfully obsolete. A clue is that
you can't buy a brand new ethernet hub anywhere.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 21:11:09 -0800, miso wrote:

Bad enough they try to
block outlets with furniture.

Been there. Use a recessed wall plate:
http://cableorganizer.com/datacomm-electronics/recessed-pro-power-flat-panel-kits/
http://cableorganizer.com/leviton/decora-recessed-duplex-receptacles.html

I dunno about this one:
http://images1.cableorganizer.com/leviton/decora-recessed-receptacles/690-i-lg.jpg

Your suggestion of wiring two walls on
either side of the door is a good one. Almost any wire in a room can be
tolerated except if it crosses a door.

Yep. It didn't take me much to work out the problem and magic
formula. Convincing the customer is much more difficult.

Years ago I took a structured wiring "class" at CES, just to see what
was happening. This was before the WWW was cranking at 11, though it
existed. They suggested two networks per room. I could never get a
reasonable explanation for why this was a good idea. Not on different
walls, but two networks to the same outlet. Like the person saw it done,
but didn't really know why himself. Of course there is no shortage of
space on the wall outlet plate for multiple RJ45.

I've never heard that one.

I've had an electrician tell me that the right way to wire a house is
to put run 4 wires instead of 3 to each wall outlet, and set them up
so that each of the two outlets goes to a seperate breaker, and
possibly a seperate phase. It's also handy for wiring 220VAC in the
same outlet. The extra wire can also be used for wiring 3 way
switches. Probably a good idea, but nobody is doing it.

That was where I learned nearly everyone in the class was an ex-alarm
installer. Oy!

These daze, home alarms are either carrier current on the AC power
wires, or wireless.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 23:27:26 -0600, Char Jackson
wrote:

If the DSL modem already includes a router, why are people adding a
second router? I know there are some edge cases, but I'm wondering
about the majority.

Well, this is messy, but I think you might appreciate the details.
I'll use the common Speedstream 4200 DSL modem as an example. When
installed in the approved AT&T manner, the ethernet port delivers
192.168.1.64 to the external router. The management IP address of the
DSL modem is 192.168.1.1.

When connected to a typical Linksys router, the router also wants to
use 192.168.1.1 as it's IP address. That's not going to work, and the
DSL modem automagically switches to 192.168.0.1 and delivers
192.168.0.64. (This is not 100% reliable, causes some odd problems,
and is largely responsible for why Belkin and others are delivering
routers using 192.168.2.1).

At first glance, this arrangement looks like double NAT. It is, but
with a difference. All IP ports in the DSL modem are forwarded to the
ethernet port, so there's no problem with incoming traffic not making
it to the router. Were this a "real" double NAT setup, the first
router (in the DSL modem) would NOT have any ports forwarded by
default.

The catch is that you can only forward ALL the IP ports to one IP
address. That means that the DSL modem can only do the NAT thing to
one IP address, and therefore to only one device. If that device is a
router, there's no problem. If you try to connect an ethernet switch
to the DSL modem, and plug in multiple computahs, only one computah
will work.

There's one other item that might be of interest. The DSL modem
intercepts all traffic on the WAN (DSL) side destined to the
management IP address (192.168.1.1). Normally, the external router is
configured to send everything to the internet, except the IP's on the
LAN side (192.168.1.xxx). If you plug 192.168.1.1 into the web
browser, the router will send it to the internet, and the DSL modem
will not respond. So, they violate some RFC, and trap this address,
sending it to the local LAN side, and then to the management web
server inside the modem.

The problem is that the 4200 seems to have a botched implementation of
this undocumented feature. The later DSL modems work well, as do most
cable modems. Older modems lack this feature and require a static
route on the WAN side to get to the DSL modem management web page.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 26 Dec 2011 05:03:03 +0000 (UTC), Chuck Banshee
wrote:

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

The balance is to have a jack on each wall that straddles a door.
That's because it's awkward and messy to run cables across a doorway.

Jeff's words are very interesting words of experience.

I have the scars to prove it.

Especially since I'm finding walls within walls the more I drill deep!

Sigh. Like I said, there are no simple installs.

Here are some pictures of the setup (to explain what I mean).

Picture taken just now of the WISP antenna setup (jury rigged with
extension cords and patch cords until I get the wiring figured out).
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223272.gif

Looks ok to me. Nothing much to complain about here. Well, don't
forget to use anti-seize grease on the threaded pipe mast.

Here is what I found when I popped a hole in the game room wall!
(there was a hidden wall inside the outside wall!)
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif

Looks like someone built up the wall with battens, wallboard, and
floor tiles glued to the wallboard. What are the wall tiles made
from? I think I can see why the stud finder didn't work. The studs
are too far away.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 14:34:36 -0500, clare wrote:
I would not bother splitting the cable - you have enough cable to do
it right and run 2 cables - which will allow you to move to gigabyte
ethernet later if technology dictates. Gives you redundancy too.

I understand and agree.

Home Depot didn't have anything between 100 feet (which was too short)
and 500 feet (which is probably three times what I need).

Here's a picture of the box of cable that I bought:
- $75 cat5e 24AWG solid core indoor/outdoor "tan"
- http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif

Here are 6 pictures of the current (abomination) setup:
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.i...53f219bb15302a

On Sun, 25 Dec 2011 10:04:45 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Unfortunately, you bought your CAT5 at Home Despot and therefore
overpaid.

Where do most of you buy about 250 feet of cat5e cable?
( Here is a picture of what I bought for $75 + San Jose tax)
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif

Holdit. We may have a problem. It appears that you are using "double
NAT", where you have two devices doing NAT (the UBNT M2 and the WRT54G).

Yes. But.

My new WISP is asking me to put the first device (UBNT M2) in 'bridge'
mode so that it would be on my WISP provider's subnet (Santa Cruz
Mountains).

If you're going to do anything that involves incoming connections
(VoIP, remote desktop, games), you'll probably find it easier to have a
single easily configurable NAT device.

My portable Skype phone works - but sometimes on outgoing calls (which is
the only way I use it) it only hears one end of the conversation. Could
'that' be related to the double NAT?

I suggest you turn OFF the DHCP server and NAT in the UBNT M2 radio,
and leave the NAT to the WRT54G.

I understand the suggestion. In effect, I think both the NAT & the DHCP
will be removed when/if I follow my WISP's recent (yesterday) suggestion
to configure the Ubuntu Bullet M2 in "bridge" mode and change the IP
address to be on his subnet.

At 10ft, I suggest LMR400 cable and Type N connector.
One reason I may have to add "a" pigtail is that the planar antenna N
connector is in the CENTERLINE of the antenna (which seems to me to be
the dumbest place to be!).

The problem with the centerline is that the mast is in that same
centerline! So, you can't have any mast ABOVE the antenna.

Here is a picture I took tonight of what I mean:
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223272.gif

You can see the bullet-shaped white Ubiquiti M2 screwed directly into the
back of the 19 dBi planar antenna, tilted slightly upward.

In the future, if I want to add a TV antenna, I'd have to move the bullet
M2 out of the centerline anyway. So, at that point, I'll need "a" patch
cord anyway.

Your discussion on the signal losses in that pigtail are interesting!

Careful with the grade of cable. Outdoor can be anything from UV proof
CAT5 to gel filled, armored, thick jacket, and shielded cable. A
non-penetrating (extra thick) outer jacket is probably all you'll need.

This is a picture of what I bought from "Home Despot" for $75 + tax:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif

Does it look OK for the 3 runs below?
a) About 100 feet from the antenna to the garage (zig zagging outdoors &
buried just underground) ... and then continuous to ...
b) About 25 feet from the garage to the crawl space up to the office (zig
zagging all indoors)
c) About 25 separate feet from the office back down to the crawl space
and horizontally over to the game room

The right way(tm) to run ethernet in the garage is to bring a 2nd
cable back from a LAN port on the WRT54G back to the garage

That makes sense because that was the "right way(tm)" to wire the game
room; if I were to wire the garage, then it makes sense to be similar to
the game room in concept (i.e., a 'dead wire' run from the office to the
garage).

I would still suggest running 2 cables.

I have no problem running two cables - so - I won't consider doubling up
anymore. I have three times more cat5e cable than I need anyway. And,
these pictures of the crawl space show I have plenty of room.

I just need to drill a bigger hole!

Picture of crawl space view up into the floor of the office
http://www4.picturepush.com/photo/a/...g/7223362.jpeg
Picture of entrance hole in the wall of the office:
www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/7212874/1024/Anonymous/cat5-questions.gif

Picture of crawl space view over to the game room (far end of house):
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223369.gif
Picture of hole in the wall of the game room:
http://www1.picturepush.com/photo/a/...mg/7223279.gif