For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

On May 18, 6:13*pm, jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was *no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

what are your pipes made of?

copper? may work.

galavanized? forget it.

plastic? probably isnt corroding.

if the corrosion is attacking the lines cleaning them may well cause
leaks, ither immediately or long term. leaks may not be obvious in
walls etc, and cause mold growth and other issues.

is your water supply city water or from a well? either way you might
be better off to treat the water to prevent corrosion.

OP needs to supply more info.

galavanized is the worst the lines just rust internally and then begin
leaking in a downward spiral of fixed a leak got 2 more, fixed 3 now 5
leaks, one damaged the cieling.

a excellent replacement is PEX and since its slippery plastic it will
last longer than anyone here

jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I
propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?
Hi,
Sounds like your water is hard. No softener in the house?

All pipes are copper.

Water supply is from a small village in NE Ohio but the village has a
water treatment plant.

On 5/18/2011 8:13 PM, bob haller wrote:
On May 18, 6:13 pm, wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

what are your pipes made of?

copper? may work.

galavanized? forget it.

plastic? probably isnt corroding.

if the corrosion is attacking the lines cleaning them may well cause
leaks, ither immediately or long term. leaks may not be obvious in
walls etc, and cause mold growth and other issues.

is your water supply city water or from a well? either way you might
be better off to treat the water to prevent corrosion.

OP needs to supply more info.

galavanized is the worst the lines just rust internally and then begin
leaking in a downward spiral of fixed a leak got 2 more, fixed 3 now 5
leaks, one damaged the cieling.

a excellent replacement is PEX and since its slippery plastic it will
last longer than anyone here

No water softener. 32 years.

Issue is cleaning the pipes now. Future? Hell! I'll be rust by the time
it needs to be done again.

On 5/18/2011 10:01 PM, Tony Hwang wrote:


jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I
propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?
Hi,
Sounds like your water is hard. No softener in the house?

On 05/18/2011 05:13 PM, jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes.


You have "watched" it. Have you actually _seen_ the deposits? Please
describe what you have seen.

What kind of pipes do you have? What "water tank" do you mean?

I recently cut a couple of copper lines that have carried hard water for
40 years and found virtually no deposits. And my water is very hard:
over 30 grains/gal.

But downstream from the water softener, the pressure was horrible. That
was because the softener resin had turned to mush and was clogging up
the softener's strainer. But that doesn't explain your problem, since
you say you don't have a softener.

jaygreg wrote:

For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well...

I live in Arizona and have very hard water. Steel pipes clog up fast
and eventually develop pinholes, sometimes in just a few years.
Copper pipes build up a layer of calcium that stays thin and doesn't
have to be removed. The pipes also last forever (I live in a home
with 60-year-old copper pipes). Plastic pipes develop an even
thinner layer of calcium, and PVC and CPVC lasts forever, provided
it's covered from sunlight and no gophers chew through it.

On May 18, 6:13*pm, jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was *no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

Mineral desposits are not usually a problem with copper pipes. Cut
something open and determine the facts, not speculation.

On May 19, 8:09*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 18, 6:13*pm, jaygreg wrote:





For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was *no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

Mineral desposits are not usually a problem with copper pipes. *Cut
something open and determine the facts, not speculation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

yeah its more likely a issue with clogged aerators, clogged low flow
fixtures or my favorite./

my shower became anemic over time didnt realize it till i stayed in a
hotel.

traced to my wand shower, the head was fine, the lines inner rubber
became detached from the outer braid. flow would be gret for a moment
then drop to a trickle.

i replaced the wand shower assembly and cut the line open out of
curosity.

inner black rubber was huge, and acting as a flow restrictor.....

i too doubt its a copper line issue

"jaygreg" wrote in message
...
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of
water in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent
job of dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal.
Many years ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well...
though there was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since
the water wasn't being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to
original and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably
with their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially
what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

That would be wonderful if it works.

Also be aware that if chunks of crud loosen and fall off, these might
get stuck where there are valves. And these will clog low flow faucets
with a quickness. Might need to removel all valves, flush the lines,
then replace the valves.

Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles (lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually white...assumed
calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in their
pressure.


On 5/19/2011 8:09 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 18, 6:13 pm, wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

Mineral desposits are not usually a problem with copper pipes. Cut
something open and determine the facts, not speculation.

jaygreg wrote:
Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles (lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually
white...assumed calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in
their pressure.

First, regarding your original post -- I think that is an interesting idea
although I really don't know whether it would work or not etc.

But, since you said that you have all copper plumbing, as others have
said -- it doesn't appear that corrosion would be the reason for a lower
water pressure/flow.

Since you wrote earlier that you are finding the low flow problem "in
selected pipes", it may just be that dirt and particles of debris are
clogging the faucet aerator screens etc. If you did any plumbing work
(repairing valves etc.), pieces of dirt and debris can break loose and clog
the screens. Happens all the time. The same could be true if the town did
some work on water lines outside of your house.

Another possibility could be a valve which has a rubber washer that is
broken or damaged or came off from the valve stem. If that happens, opening
the valve can still leave the washer stuck in the valve in a position where
it restricts the water flow. This could be in a main water valve or another
valve somewhere else. You would have to take the valve stem off and look to
be sure.

On May 18, 6:13*pm, jaygreg wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal. Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well... though there
was *no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck (presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than satisfactory?

WHAT ARE YOU, A CHEF?
WHAT IS THIS OBSESSION WITH VINEGAR.

TGITM

On 05/19/2011 11:04 AM, jaygreg wrote:
Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles


Do you mean on the outside of the nozzle? Maybe in the same place where
a drop of water hangs? If so, that is explained by evaporation of the
water part of hard water. I mean the water would evaporate and leave
the hardness minerals behind as a solid, like a stalactite. Since there
is generally no evaporation from the inside of the pipe, you wouldn't
get deposits there, at least not by the same process.


(lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually white...assumed
calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in their
pressure.


On 5/19/2011 8:09 AM, jamesgangnc wrote:
On May 18, 6:13 pm, wrote:
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the flow of water
in selected pipes.

I'm glad I shared these thoughts with all of you. I've decided to
reexamine everything. I know there is an end cap on a pipe on the side
of the house where I notice the reduction. It began to drip and I
discovered that the "professional, licensed, plumber" I had rearrange a
few pipes about 30 years ago used a zinc end cap rather than all copper.
It's corroding. I cut into another one about a year ago when it started
to drip and found a tremendous amount of black mush inside. This may be
my root cause.

Also learned from this exercise is that no one seems to find fault with
the idea of purging the system with pure vinegar. And, "No", I'm not a
chef. Vinegar is the least expensive "acid" that will dissolve mineral
deposits and leave a system whole.

Thanks to all of you for taking time to offer your ideas and comments.

On 5/19/2011 3:50 PM, RogerT wrote:
jaygreg wrote:
Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles (lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually
white...assumed calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in
their pressure.

First, regarding your original post -- I think that is an interesting idea
although I really don't know whether it would work or not etc.

But, since you said that you have all copper plumbing, as others have
said -- it doesn't appear that corrosion would be the reason for a lower
water pressure/flow.

Since you wrote earlier that you are finding the low flow problem "in
selected pipes", it may just be that dirt and particles of debris are
clogging the faucet aerator screens etc. If you did any plumbing work
(repairing valves etc.), pieces of dirt and debris can break loose and clog
the screens. Happens all the time. The same could be true if the town did
some work on water lines outside of your house.

Another possibility could be a valve which has a rubber washer that is
broken or damaged or came off from the valve stem. If that happens, opening
the valve can still leave the washer stuck in the valve in a position where
it restricts the water flow. This could be in a main water valve or another
valve somewhere else. You would have to take the valve stem off and look to
be sure.

On May 20, 12:44*pm, jaygreg wrote:
I'm glad I shared these thoughts with all of you. I've decided to
reexamine everything. I know there is an end cap on a pipe on the side
of the house where I notice the reduction. It began to drip and I
discovered that the "professional, licensed, plumber" I had rearrange a
few pipes about 30 years ago used a zinc end cap rather than all copper.
It's corroding. I cut into another one about a year ago when it started
to drip and found a tremendous amount of black mush inside. This may be
my root cause.

Also learned from this exercise is that no one seems to find fault with
the idea of purging the system with pure vinegar. And, "No", I'm not a
chef. Vinegar is the least expensive "acid" that will dissolve mineral
deposits and leave a system whole.

Thanks to all of you for taking time to offer your ideas and comments.

On 5/19/2011 3:50 PM, RogerT wrote:



jaygreg wrote:
Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles (lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually
white...assumed calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in
their pressure.

First, regarding your original post -- I think that is an interesting idea
although I really don't know whether it would work or not etc.

But, since you said that you have all copper plumbing, as others have
said -- it doesn't appear that corrosion would be the reason for a lower
water pressure/flow.

Since you wrote earlier that you are finding the low flow problem "in
selected pipes", it may just be that dirt and particles of debris are
clogging the faucet aerator screens etc. *If you did any plumbing work
(repairing valves etc.), pieces of dirt and debris can break loose and clog
the screens. *Happens all the time. *The same could be true if the town did
some work on water lines outside of your house.

Another possibility could be a valve which has a rubber washer that is
broken or damaged or came off from the valve stem. *If that happens, opening
the valve can still leave the washer stuck in the valve in a position where
it restricts the water flow. *This could be in a main water valve or another
valve somewhere else. *You would have to take the valve stem off and look to
be sure.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

We just think you are wasting your time and money with the whole
vinegar idea. It's not going to fix your problems. And white crumbly
stuff in the screens is often a hw tank dip tube that has fallen
apart. If you have sediment deposits then open some pipes and run the
water at full pressure. You're not going to have calcium deposits
attached to the inside of your copper pipes. Calcium deposist really
only happen in situations where the water is permitted to evaporate
and leave the disolved minerals behind. Otherwise they don't have a
reason to solidify out of the water.

On May 20, 3:19*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:04:47 -0400, jaygreg
wrote:

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in their
pressure.

Have you checked any valves to see if they might be partially closed,
restricting water flow?

Just one thing to check :-/

or a faulty pressure reducing valve in the OPs home?

or a obstruction at the meter?

On May 20, 6:20*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 20 May 2011 14:54:00 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On May 20, 3:19*pm, Oren wrote:
On Thu, 19 May 2011 12:04:47 -0400, jaygreg
wrote:

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no change in their
pressure.

Have you checked any valves to see if they might be partially closed,
restricting water flow?

Just one thing to check :-/

or a faulty pressure reducing valve in the OPs home?

or a obstruction at the meter?

My PRV value is say 14 years old. I guess it could fail. but not yet.
And, I don't tamper with it.

OP can put a PSI gauge on a hose bib, closest to the meter and give us
a pressure reading.

Take morning, noon and afternoon readings...

back in the fred flintstone era when I was growing up our family had a
low flow problem and red stuff blocking aerators. The waer company
traced it back to some work they did in the neighborhood.

OP might begin by calling water company for a free diagnose....

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Might clog aerators and faucets with sediment.

Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than
satisfactory?
If the rust is near exterior surface, might spring a leak.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jaygreg" wrote in message
...
For some time now, I've watched mineral deposits slow the
flow of water
in selected pipes. Plain household vinegar does an excellent
job of
dissolving it... if your can get the vinegar to the metal.
Many years
ago I used it in my water take and all turned out well...
though there
was no way of really measuring its effectiveness since the
water wasn't
being restricted at that time.

Here's my thought; shoot holes in it for me:

By-pass the water tank, shut off the main valve, drain all
pipes,
connect a small pump to the line between two separate
faucets, pump
vinegar throughout the line, let set 24 hours, return all to
original
and flush the system with water.

I've had this idea for nearly 25 years and did nothing. Now
I see
there's a commercial service that brings their truck
(presumably with
their pump and whatever solvent they use) and do essentially
what I propose.

Q1) See any downside to the project?
Q2) See any reason why the outcome might be less than
satisfactory?

So, always use the neighbor's sink and shower. Problem
solved.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"jaygreg" wrote in message
...
Here's how I led to the speculation:

1) White mineral deposits formed at end of faucet nozzles
(lightly but
enough to find material in the screen filters... usually
white...assumed
calcium)

2) Water pressure noticeably lower. Neighbors notice no
change in their
pressure.

Vinegar is likely a bad idea.

Vinegar will attack and possibly damage solder joints, causing a leak
either immediately or long term LIKE WHEN NO ONE IS HOME

Plus the natural corrosion process coats lead solder, so old copper
lines dont leach lead into the water.... thats bad for peoples health
espically kids and pregnant women it can cause retardation.....

thus the big deal over lead remediation.and why lead solder is no long
sold for water line work...

I think its better to find out exactly why flow has dropped, than take
a shot at vinegar which likely wouldnt help anyway and may well cause
troubles long term........

try calling your water company first

replying to JoseGomez, Seriously... wrote:
Get a life Jose Gomez! Not really funny at all. Like I said: GET A LIFE!

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...es-634617-.htm

On Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 7:14:04 AM UTC-8, Seriously... wrote:
replying to JoseGomez, Seriously... wrote:
Get a life Jose Gomez! Not really funny at all. Like I said: GET A LIFE!

--
for full context, visit http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...es-634617-.htm

Your way has worked for me.

replying to jamesgangnc, Dan O wrote:
Actually I can tell you that deposits can and do build up in copper. Years
ago I replace a water heater with an indirect water heater. I was horrified
to see that after only a few years (3-5 or so) the hot water pipe output from
the heater had maybe half of its cross section left open. In general, folks
may be right that it isn't usually a problem with copper. However, in my case
I think my situation was worse due to the fact that I have a passive hot water
re-circulation loop. So the water lazily flows through the loop 24/7 - I
assume continually depositing calcium. Recently I added a softener for the
hot water feed. As a side note, we are on a township well with medium hard
water. I don't recall the number but remember looking it up an it wasn't
considered extremely hard.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...es-634617-.htm

On 7/25/2017 12:14 AM, Dan O wrote:
replying to jamesgangnc, Dan O wrote:
Actually I can tell you that deposits can and do build up in copper. Years
ago I replace a water heater with an indirect water heater. I was
horrified
to see that after only a few years (3-5 or so) the hot water pipe output
from
the heater had maybe half of its cross section left open. In general,
folks
may be right that it isn't usually a problem with copper. However, in
my case
I think my situation was worse due to the fact that I have a passive hot
water
re-circulation loop. So the water lazily flows through the loop 24/7 - I
assume continually depositing calcium. Recently I added a softener for the
hot water feed. As a side note, we are on a township well with medium hard
water. I don't recall the number but remember looking it up an it wasn't
considered extremely hard.



Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:17:48 +0100, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

Why don't cars suffer from this? Can't we make boilers run like car cooling systems?

--
The Red Cross just knocked on my door and asked if we could contribute towards the floods in Lebanon.
I said we'd love to, but our garden hose only reaches the driveway.

On 7/25/2017 2:23 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:17:48 +0100, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

Why don't cars suffer from this? Can't we make boilers run like car cooling systems?


You get new water all the time, bringing in more and more minerals.

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:38:25 +0100, Taxed and Spent wrote:

On 7/25/2017 2:23 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:17:48 +0100, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

Why don't cars suffer from this? Can't we make boilers run like car cooling systems?


You get new water all the time, bringing in more and more minerals.

I see.

Since you're here, explain why (older?) Renaults got airlocks all the time and simply stopped pumping water without warning, overheating the engine to catastrophic failure. Central heating does the same, but most non-Renault cars never get airlocks. Surely they could learn from each other.

--
Q. What's the difference between a brown-noser and a ****-head?
A. Depth perception.

On 7/25/2017 2:58 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:38:25 +0100, Taxed and Spent wrote:

On 7/25/2017 2:23 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:17:48 +0100, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

Why don't cars suffer from this? Can't we make boilers run like car cooling systems?


You get new water all the time, bringing in more and more minerals.

I see.

Since you're here, explain why (older?) Renaults got airlocks all the time and simply stopped pumping water without warning, overheating the engine to catastrophic failure. Central heating does the same, but most non-Renault cars never get airlocks. Surely they could learn from each other.



I retrofitted an old Renault with some left over Trane parts, and it
worked just fine.

On 7/25/2017 5:23 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:
On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 22:17:48 +0100, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On 7/25/2017 3:47 PM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:40:39 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Water sits in the hot water tank and the minerals collect over
time. In
your case, they were circulated more than normal. Water heaters are
notorius for mineral buildup.

I don't know the exact chemistry of it but if you get hot water too
hot, minerals precipitate out. We've had that problem with boilers
at work. If we set the temperature too high, or it got out of
control, mixing valves etc would start failing in a day. I would
think that temperature is hotter than domestic hot water tanks but
maybe there's some effect at a lower temperature.



Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.

Why don't cars suffer from this? Can't we make boilers run like car
cooling systems?


Sure, depends on the system. Steam used for process is constantly
adding make up water. We used 250 to 400 gallons an hour depending on
production load. These were 125 hp boilers running high pressure and we
had to have a state licensed person on staff any time they were running.

Boilers in industrial setups have plenty of places for loss in the
system too if you have many meters of piping. Smaller residential
boilers usually don't see those problems.

In another section of the building we had a steam heating boiler and it
needed very little care and no chemicals. Makeup water was minimal and
it was low pressure (15 psi) so no license needed.

On 7/25/2017 5:58 PM, James Wilkinson Sword wrote:

Since you're here, explain why (older?) Renaults got airlocks all the
time and simply stopped pumping water without warning, overheating the
engine to catastrophic failure. Central heating does the same, but most
non-Renault cars never get airlocks. Surely they could learn from each
other.


French engineering. Wine and brie anyone?

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:58:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.

On 7/26/2017 8:31 AM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:58:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.


A softener would help.

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/26/2017 8:31 AM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:58:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.


A softener would help.

Sure. But it would be costly to run in a building this big, with 300 showers.

On 7/26/2017 9:52 AM, TimR wrote:


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.


A softener would help.

Sure. But it would be costly to run in a building this big, with 300 showers.


Pay me now or pay me later. What is the cost going to be clearing the
pipes of 300 showers? How well do the shower heads work? Dishwashers?
Softeners cost little to operate once installed. I bought 50# bags of
salt for about $9 delivered in volume. We treated enough for up to 400
gallons and hour. We did it to save money!

On 7/26/2017 8:52 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/26/2017 8:31 AM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:58:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.


A softener would help.

Sure. But it would be costly to run in a building this big, with 300 showers.

What will it cost to repipe that big building when the pipes begin to
look like your milk drinking, high cholesterol and fat loving uncle
Eddie's arteries at age 59 when he goes into full arrest? ;-)

On Wed, 26 Jul 2017 09:29:54 -0500, Unquestionably Confused
wrote:

A softener would help.

Sure. But it would be costly to run in a building this big, with 300 showers.

What will it cost to repipe that big building when the pipes begin to
look like your milk drinking, high cholesterol and fat loving uncle
Eddie's arteries at age 59 when he goes into full arrest? ;-)

Yeah, but it tastes GOOD!

On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 10:32:32 AM UTC-4, Unquestionably Confused wrote:
On 7/26/2017 8:52 AM, TimR wrote:
On Wednesday, July 26, 2017 at 8:39:37 AM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 7/26/2017 8:31 AM, TimR wrote:
On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 7:58:04 PM UTC-4, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
Your boilers at work should be blown down on a regular basis and
possibly have chemical treatment. I used to do a test every day on our
steam boilers as we used a lot of water. Even though softened you still
have to be careful with steam boilers. We operated at 110 psi, over 300
degrees.


The boilers were okay. The boiler had a loop for the building heating system and a loop for domestic hot water. It was domestic hot water that would precipitate deposits in the valves if it got too hot. Obviously you can't do chemical treatment on domestic hot water.


A softener would help.

Sure. But it would be costly to run in a building this big, with 300 showers.

What will it cost to repipe that big building when the pipes begin to
look like your milk drinking, high cholesterol and fat loving uncle
Eddie's arteries at age 59 when he goes into full arrest? ;-)

Or you can just keep the water cool enough, which is what we do. Works fine.

The mixing valve right after the storage tank will scale up if we get the heat up too much. The rest of the pipes don't seem to have any problem.

Maybe I should mention we have 410 buildings on this campus. Softeners would cost a lot to run, and it comes out of the maintenance budget.