On Apr 24, 12:34*pm, aemeijers wrote:

Not a fan of industry associations essentially writing laws and
administrative regulations, and lazy legislatures giving them the force
of law by including them by reference in the laws they do pass. (ie, bar
association, AMA, et al) But that is how the world we live in works.

Can you imagine what it would be like if each municipality had to
develop its own codes? The word "cluster****" comes to mind.

On Apr 24, 12:54*pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
the ethics of downloading the code.

No harm, no foul. *I would never buy a hard copy, 'cause I just don't
need one. *Nor will I ever likely need one. *My downloading the PDF does
not cause the loss of a sale to the NFPA & hence does them no harm.

Having it available for online reading is (almost) exactly equivalent to
downloading it. *The only difference being the ability to print the
downloaded version. *But maybe you can print it online, too. *If the
NFPA provides it online for reading, how could they care if it's
available for downloading?

Bob

Because it is THEIR property. YOU don't get to decide whether there's
a difference between reading it online or downloading it. THEY do. So
does copyright law.

There are reasons why NFPA would want to keep control over the
printing and distribution of their materials.

Here's a couple of scenarios in which their lawyers would be very much
interested: Suppose that this rogue PDF file is out there and, for
some reason, it has be come corrupted. Perhaps some words got dropped,
perhaps some numbers got changed, perhaps some troublemaker changed
some stuff. Now imagine that someone built to this bogus code and...

1) Failed inspection and had to do a lot of rework and was very ****ed
at NFPA for allowing this to happen

2) Burned the house down with loss of life.

Do you really want to trust your lifer or, perhaps your customer's
life to a document you downloaded from piratebay?

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:06:45 -0400, Bob Engelhardt
wrote:

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays those
people? The federal government?
...

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any
jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards
organization ... Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it
loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Very well done Sir! Very well done indeed!!


--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

On Apr 24, 1:32*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

Dan

On Apr 24, 1:06*pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays those
people? The federal government?

...

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any
jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards
organization *... *Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it
loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Great, Bob. Try using Wikipedia as a defense against an infringement
suit and see how far that gets you in court.

wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:32 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the
users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

Dan

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Raging socialism, once again. d8-)

--
Ed huntress

"rangerssuck" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:06 pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays
those
people? The federal government?

...

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any
jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards
organization ... Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it
loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Great, Bob. Try using Wikipedia as a defense against an infringement
suit and see how far that gets you in court.

Well, I read the case, annotations, commentary and footnotes. It was a 5th
Circuit Court of Appeals case heard in 2002 and it reversed an appellate
court ruling.

I follow their reasoning, but I liked the dissenting opinion much better.
d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:48:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...


What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?


I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

Codes apply to the businesses that do the work.


Codes apply to homeowners too.
Let's break for a story. Not because it's too relevant, but just
because.
A neighbor across the alley lit his garage up using gasoline to clean
his motorcycle.
Don't know all the details, but the fire took out my electric service
legs and blistered the big doors on both my garages.
The city (Chicago) required I get a new service with outside meter.
Okay, made sense, but I wasn't exactly flush.
And I'm now connected to inspectors. On their list.
First electric contractor I had out for an estimate wanted about $1000
to do the meter and leg hookup. Told him I would call him.
Let's call him McCoy.
(Estimated numbers just to show relative cost. I don't remember exact
numbers, and don't even remember what we did for power.
Probably ComEd hooked it up without a meter, but that's dim.)

Second guy came out the same day, and said $500.
Even putting price aside, I liked him better.
Told him I would call him, but he probably had the job.
I called the first guy , McCoy, and told him I was getting the job
done at half his price. He was surprised and asked who.
I told him Fifth Avenue Electric. FAE for short.
He hit the roof, and told me they weren't licensed, they buy their
permits, just call the city inspection office, blah, blah.
Anyway, I bought it.
Last thing I want is unlicensed work, and inspectors on my ass.
So I told McCoy to come out and finalize the deal.

I called the "unlicensed" guy back and told him that I was told his
company wasn't licensed, and I couldn't go with him.
He told me any work he did would be legal, but I told him I didn't
want to take any chances. He didn't press me.
I was actually a little disappointed in him, but that was because I
didn't know "the system."

Now in the meantime I had a visit from the city inspector.
He walked through the basement and told me fix this and fix that.
A ceiling light over the laundry tub needed a porcelain fixture, and a
junction box needed a cover.
He looked at me and pointedly said, "I'm not going upstairs."
That made me happy, and I asked him to repeat it.
My house was a 2-flat, built in the 1920's, with original electrics.
Imagine the code violations.

So McCoy comes riding in on a new Honda Gold Wing to do a contract.
I won't get into this except to say I'm a Harley guy.
Not that I ride, but that's what I would ride.
First thing McCoy wants to do is inspect the entire house to see what
has to be done.
I tell him I talked to the inspector and he won't go past the
basement.
McCoy made a mistake and wanted to argue about that.
"My reputation" bull****.
And he wouldn't back down, and stuck to that line.
Instead of getting the service job and minor fixes, he ****ed me off
so badly I almost hit him. I basically ran him back to his bike.
I was so ****ed I went right to the phone and called FAE.
Just told him to come out and do the job.
Mostly to get back at that asshole McCoy, since I still had concerns
about permitting, but it worked out anyway.

When FAE came out first thing he said was "I really thought I lost
you. What happened?" I told him about my run-in with McCoy.
Anyway, we became friendly fast, and he told me the city pulled his
company's license because they wouldn't kick back to inspectors.
His dad owned the company, was a long time electric contractor and
would never swing that way.
This guy was my age, about 30 then, and had 10 brothers!
I met about 5 of them as they worked on my place.
He explained that they had so many friends in the business to pull
permits for them that it hardly slowed them down.
And it was all legal, so no worry about the inspector.
You don't have to be licensed to do the work, just to pull the permit.
Think about that.
He told me I really needed some more circuits, switches and outlets
upstairs and he would run them for 25 bucks each if I did the
re-plastering. I told him I was short on money, and he said don't
worry, pay me when you can.
Owed him about $500 when he was done, paid him in a couple months.
No problem with the inspector, and he didn't go upstairs.

A few months later FAE dropped by to return some camping/outdoors
books he had borrowed from me and told me the whole story.
His dad was wearing a wire for the feds while he and his brothers
worked on my house.
Mike Royko wrote a column about his dad wearing the wire.
I read that column once, on the internet I think, but can't find it
now. 1978. Feds indicted one third of the city electrical
inspectors. Big scandal.
Mostly for taking bribes to overlook violations I think, but taking
kickbacks from electrical contractors was part of the mix.
That's my maybe boring story about codes, inspectors and electricians.
I like it anyway.


What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.

No, you don't. The NEC is researched, tested, organized and written by
volunteers, who hire professionals to do the professional parts of it.


I meant I pay the inspector's salaries. They have a book they can use
to hammer me with, no different than law.

snip


Vic, the Code is not produced by government. It's produced by the National
Fire Protection Association. Do you want to pay them with taxpayer's money?

Since you can get free access to it according to law, it's no big
deal. I didn't know that.
That almost takes care of my "philosophical" objections.
I take your point about who pays, and what's the most efficient way
of getting code created in one place.
I'm not foaming at the mouth about this.
Ed, if I wanted the entire NEC I would just pay the 60-70 bucks for
it.
What got me going on this is I do my own plumbing and simple
electrical work. I always want to follow code.
You made me look harder on my town's website.
The plumbing code for my town is the Illinois Plumbing Code, 2004
Edition (with local amendments.) I can order that for 40 bucks.
From the Illinois Department of Public Health!
Electrical is Chicago Electrical Code, 2007 edition with local
amendments. That's on-line. Clumsy to use, but it's there.
I also found the amendments to those two on the town website with a
little digging.
Here's a plumbing amendment that's relevant to a discussion of floor
drains here a while back,

"890.1370a). Add a new subparagraph 6):
In addition to the above, at least one vented floor drain is required
in the vicinity of all washing machines, furnaces, hot water heaters,
boilers, reduced pressure backflow preventers, and water meters."

Another plumbing amendment is the addition of some chapters of the
2003 International Plumbing Code. That book has to be bought.
HVAC codes are covered by International Mechanical Code, 2003.
That one has to be bought.

For the sake of comparison I looked at how Ohio villages do it.
The examples I saw all referenced the Ohio Building Code, with no
amendments. That's easy, just look up the Ohio code.
But the Ohio code essentially says read the 2006 International
Building Code.
Looks like that has to be bought.
Anyway, my head is spinning, but now I know how to find codes, whether
they're free or not.
The electrical code is all online, so I don't even care about the NEC.
But after wading through some of the code, I might just ask the guy at
Home Depot what he thinks. Nah.
I'll just ask here.
If I was in a trade, I'd just buy the books, like I did many times for
doing my IT work.

--Vic

On Apr 24, 7:01*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:48:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress"





wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...

What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?

I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

Codes apply to the businesses that do the work.

Codes apply to homeowners too.
Let's break for a story. *Not because it's too relevant, but just
because.
A neighbor across the alley lit his garage up using gasoline to clean
his motorcycle.
Don't know all the details, but the fire took out my electric service
legs and blistered the big doors on both my garages.
The city (Chicago) required I get a new service with outside meter.
Okay, made sense, but I wasn't exactly flush.
And I'm now connected to inspectors. *On their list.
First electric contractor I had out for an estimate wanted about $1000
to do the meter and leg hookup. *Told him I would call him.
Let's call him McCoy.
(Estimated numbers just to show relative cost. *I don't remember exact
numbers, and don't even remember what we did for power.
Probably ComEd hooked it up without a meter, but that's dim.)

Second guy came out the same day, and said $500.
Even putting price aside, I liked him better.
Told him I would call him, but he probably had the job.
I called the first guy , McCoy, and told him I was getting the job
done at half his price. *He was surprised and asked who.
I told him Fifth Avenue Electric. *FAE for short.
He hit the roof, and told me they weren't licensed, they buy their
permits, just call the city inspection office, blah, blah.
Anyway, I bought it.
Last thing I want is unlicensed work, and inspectors on my ass.
So I told McCoy to come out and finalize the deal.

I called the "unlicensed" guy back and told him that I was told his
company wasn't licensed, and I couldn't go with him.
He told me any work he did would be legal, but I told him I didn't
want to take any chances. *He didn't press me.
I was actually a little disappointed in him, but that was because I
didn't know "the system."

Now in the meantime I had a visit from the city inspector.
He walked through the basement and told me fix this and fix that.
A ceiling light over the laundry tub needed a porcelain fixture, and a
junction box needed a cover.
He looked at me and pointedly said, "I'm not going upstairs."
That made me happy, and I asked him to repeat it.
My house was a 2-flat, built in the 1920's, with original electrics.
Imagine the code violations.

So McCoy comes riding in on a new Honda Gold Wing to do a contract.
I won't get into this except to say I'm a Harley guy.
Not that I ride, but that's what I would ride.
First thing McCoy wants to do is inspect the entire house to see what
has to be done.
I tell him I talked to the inspector and he won't go past the
basement.
McCoy made a mistake and wanted to argue about that.
"My reputation" bull****.
And he wouldn't back down, and stuck to that line.
Instead of getting the service job and minor fixes, he ****ed me off
so badly I almost hit him. *I basically ran him back to his bike.
I was so ****ed I went right to the phone and called FAE.
Just told him to come out and do the job.
Mostly to get back at that asshole McCoy, since I still had concerns
about permitting, but it worked out anyway.

When FAE came out first thing he said was "I really thought I lost
you. *What happened?" *I told him about my run-in with McCoy.
Anyway, we became friendly fast, and he told me the city pulled his
company's license because they wouldn't kick back to inspectors.
His dad owned the company, was a long time electric contractor and
would never swing that way.
This guy was my age, about 30 then, and had 10 brothers!
I met about 5 of them as they worked on my place.
He explained that they had so many friends in the business to pull
permits for them that it hardly slowed them down.
And it was all legal, so no worry about the inspector.
You don't have to be licensed to do the work, just to pull the permit.
Think about that.
He told me I really needed some more circuits, switches and outlets
upstairs and he would run them for 25 bucks each if I did the
re-plastering. *I told him I was short on money, and he said don't
worry, pay me when you can.
Owed him about $500 when he was done, paid him in a couple months.
No problem with the inspector, and he didn't go upstairs.

A few months later FAE dropped by to return some camping/outdoors
books he had borrowed from me and told me the whole story.
His dad was wearing a wire for the feds while he and his brothers
worked on my house.
Mike Royko wrote a column about his dad wearing the wire.
I read that column once, on the internet I think, but can't find it
now. *1978. *Feds indicted one third of the city electrical
inspectors. *Big scandal.
Mostly for taking bribes to overlook violations I think, but taking
kickbacks from electrical contractors was part of the mix.
That's my maybe boring story about codes, inspectors and electricians.
I like it anyway.







What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.

So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.

No, you don't. The NEC is researched, tested, organized and written by
volunteers, who hire professionals to do the professional parts of it.

I meant I pay the inspector's salaries. *They have a book they can use
to hammer me with, no different than law.

snip



Vic, the Code is not produced by government. It's produced by the National
Fire Protection Association. Do you want to pay them with taxpayer's money?

Since you can get free access to it according to law, it's no big
deal. *I didn't know that.
That almost takes care of my "philosophical" objections.
I take your point about who pays, and what's the most efficient way
of getting code created in one place.
I'm not foaming at the mouth about this.
Ed, if I wanted the entire NEC I would just pay the 60-70 bucks for
it.
What got me going on this is I do my own plumbing and simple
electrical work. *I always want to follow code.
You made me look harder on my town's website.
The plumbing code for my town is the Illinois Plumbing Code, 2004
Edition (with local amendments.) *I can order that for 40 bucks.
From the Illinois Department of Public Health!
Electrical is Chicago Electrical Code, 2007 edition with local
amendments. That's on-line. *Clumsy to use, but it's there.
I also found the amendments to those two on the town website with a
little digging.
Here's a plumbing amendment that's relevant to a discussion of floor
drains here a while back,

"890.1370a). Add a new subparagraph 6):
In addition to the above, at least one vented floor drain is required
in the vicinity of all washing machines, furnaces, hot water heaters,
boilers, reduced pressure backflow preventers, and water meters."

Another plumbing amendment is the addition of some chapters of the
2003 International Plumbing Code. *That book has to be bought.
HVAC codes are covered by International Mechanical Code, 2003.
That one has to be bought.

For the sake of comparison I looked at how Ohio villages do it.
The examples I saw all referenced the Ohio Building Code, with no
amendments. *That's easy, just look up the Ohio code.
But the Ohio code essentially says read the 2006 International
Building Code.
Looks like that has to be bought. *
Anyway, my head is spinning, but now I know how to find codes, whether
they're free or not.
The electrical code is all online, so I don't even care about the NEC.
But after wading through some of the code, I might just ask the guy at
Home Depot what he thinks. * Nah.
I'll just ask here.
If I was in a trade, I'd just buy the books, like I did many times for
doing my IT work.

--Vic- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So is the code available on the web site, and what is the web site if
it is available for reading???

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:16:42 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:



So is the code available on the web site, and what is the web site if
it is available for reading???

Let's make sure we're clear on this.
I live in Morton Grove, Il.
The electrical code for Morton Grove is the Chicago Electric code.
It's the Chicago electric code that is online.
Amendments that apply to Morton Grove are on the Morton Grove website.

Just Electric. Morton Grove codes for plumbing, HVAC, etc aren't
available online. They refer you other code books, but do have
amendments that apply to Morton Grove.

This is the website for Chicago codes. You have to hit "more at the
bottom to get the electric chapters. Division 27.
It ain't as pretty as a book.
And I have no idea how it compares to NEC.
Do me a favor will you?
If you actually read through the codes and find a part that says
"Refer to NEC 2011," keep it yourself, ok?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/6rttvs

--Vic

Me, not seeing it either.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...


Refresh your newsgroups. It is new. I see it

thanks for the suggestion. still not seeing it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

I know what the money changers were doing, but not sure what
they were ng.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Higgs Boson" wrote in message
...


Second, I'd expect from the rest of the general theology,
He would also
respect personal property and fully understand
intellectual property
rights as well...altho I think both are somewhat mundane
topics compared
to the area of real concern expressed in the message...

Say what? Smashing up the money-changers' booths at the
Temple! NO
respect for private property!!!

(Test: Who knows why the so-called money changers were
actually ng at
the plaza before the actual entrance to the Temple?)

HB

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 19:40:16 -0500, Vic Smith
wrote:

On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 17:16:42 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:



So is the code available on the web site, and what is the web site if
it is available for reading???

Let's make sure we're clear on this.
I live in Morton Grove, Il.


As a side question..did they ever dump that bull**** handgun ban?

Gunner

--
"If I say two plus two is four and a Democrat says two plus two is eight,
it's not a partial victory for me when we agree that two plus two is
six. " Jonah Goldberg (modified)

I served time and gladly for 8 or 9 years as an active member
of a standards group multiple committees and the group was under
EIA. We met to make standards and get tasks to do for the next
meeting - presenting results and suggesting changes to the infant
standard.
The various member companies paid rather large sums to be active
members. They also had specs early on in the design - often changing
after every meeting - often only the input and output pins with the
core a dummy until the combinatorial logic was sorted out by groups.

I served on memory (e.g. DDR DDR I, DDR II) DIMM (pc modules) SoDim
(laptops) and custom modules, motherboards and the I/O spec groups.

The members paid for the joint development, standards got to get us
to make the standard and then they maintain them.

One standard that enjoyed a long changing life was USB. Not only
levels but physical shape and protocol as well. Members could
call a special meeting to start off a spec. Often a large company
would have a spec and then work to make it a standard.

Martin IEEE, JEDEC former spec member. And yes specs are down loadable.

On 4/24/2011 12:32 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
"Bob wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim wrote in message

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays
those people? The federal government?
...

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any jurisdiction
as law, it is still the private property of the standards organization
... Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it loses copyright
protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Then the government has to pay -- with tax money -- to produce it. And the
standards organization will not pay for the whole project out of its own
pocket, unless it's very wealthy.

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the users
or the taxpayers?

On Apr 24, 6:06*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:


The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Raging socialism, once again. d8-)

--
Ed huntress

My idea of users is a bit broader. If you live in a house with
electricity, you are an indirect user of the NEC.

Dan

On Apr 24, 1:06*pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:


Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any
jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards
organization *... *Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it
loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Thanks for that bit of information.

My main objection to the NEC is that it is poorly organized. I expect
that is intentional to make following the code to be hard and not
easily done by homeowners. In Washington State the courts found that
homeowners can work on their own property without having a license.
The work still has to meet all the requirements. And the building
departments of cities and counties will help owners understand what is
required.

Dan

wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:06 pm, Bob Engelhardt wrote:

Thanks for that bit of information.

My main objection to the NEC is that it is poorly organized. I expect
that is intentional to make following the code to be hard and not
easily done by homeowners. In Washington State the courts found that
homeowners can work on their own property without having a license.
The work still has to meet all the requirements. And the building
departments of cities and counties will help owners understand what is
required.

Dan


There is another book put out that explains what the code says. Guess that
is one way of getting around the 'free' code book.

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:48:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
m...


What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?


I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

Codes apply to the businesses that do the work.


Codes apply to homeowners too.
Let's break for a story. Not because it's too relevant, but just
because.
A neighbor across the alley lit his garage up using gasoline to clean
his motorcycle.
Don't know all the details, but the fire took out my electric service
legs and blistered the big doors on both my garages.
The city (Chicago) required I get a new service with outside meter.
Okay, made sense, but I wasn't exactly flush.
And I'm now connected to inspectors. On their list.
First electric contractor I had out for an estimate wanted about $1000
to do the meter and leg hookup. Told him I would call him.
Let's call him McCoy.
(Estimated numbers just to show relative cost. I don't remember exact
numbers, and don't even remember what we did for power.
Probably ComEd hooked it up without a meter, but that's dim.)

Second guy came out the same day, and said $500.
Even putting price aside, I liked him better.
Told him I would call him, but he probably had the job.
I called the first guy , McCoy, and told him I was getting the job
done at half his price. He was surprised and asked who.
I told him Fifth Avenue Electric. FAE for short.
He hit the roof, and told me they weren't licensed, they buy their
permits, just call the city inspection office, blah, blah.
Anyway, I bought it.
Last thing I want is unlicensed work, and inspectors on my ass.
So I told McCoy to come out and finalize the deal.

I called the "unlicensed" guy back and told him that I was told his
company wasn't licensed, and I couldn't go with him.
He told me any work he did would be legal, but I told him I didn't
want to take any chances. He didn't press me.
I was actually a little disappointed in him, but that was because I
didn't know "the system."

Now in the meantime I had a visit from the city inspector.
He walked through the basement and told me fix this and fix that.
A ceiling light over the laundry tub needed a porcelain fixture, and a
junction box needed a cover.
He looked at me and pointedly said, "I'm not going upstairs."
That made me happy, and I asked him to repeat it.
My house was a 2-flat, built in the 1920's, with original electrics.
Imagine the code violations.

So McCoy comes riding in on a new Honda Gold Wing to do a contract.
I won't get into this except to say I'm a Harley guy.
Not that I ride, but that's what I would ride.
First thing McCoy wants to do is inspect the entire house to see what
has to be done.
I tell him I talked to the inspector and he won't go past the
basement.
McCoy made a mistake and wanted to argue about that.
"My reputation" bull****.
And he wouldn't back down, and stuck to that line.
Instead of getting the service job and minor fixes, he ****ed me off
so badly I almost hit him. I basically ran him back to his bike.
I was so ****ed I went right to the phone and called FAE.
Just told him to come out and do the job.
Mostly to get back at that asshole McCoy, since I still had concerns
about permitting, but it worked out anyway.

When FAE came out first thing he said was "I really thought I lost
you. What happened?" I told him about my run-in with McCoy.
Anyway, we became friendly fast, and he told me the city pulled his
company's license because they wouldn't kick back to inspectors.
His dad owned the company, was a long time electric contractor and
would never swing that way.
This guy was my age, about 30 then, and had 10 brothers!
I met about 5 of them as they worked on my place.
He explained that they had so many friends in the business to pull
permits for them that it hardly slowed them down.
And it was all legal, so no worry about the inspector.
You don't have to be licensed to do the work, just to pull the permit.
Think about that.
He told me I really needed some more circuits, switches and outlets
upstairs and he would run them for 25 bucks each if I did the
re-plastering. I told him I was short on money, and he said don't
worry, pay me when you can.
Owed him about $500 when he was done, paid him in a couple months.
No problem with the inspector, and he didn't go upstairs.

A few months later FAE dropped by to return some camping/outdoors
books he had borrowed from me and told me the whole story.
His dad was wearing a wire for the feds while he and his brothers
worked on my house.
Mike Royko wrote a column about his dad wearing the wire.
I read that column once, on the internet I think, but can't find it
now. 1978. Feds indicted one third of the city electrical
inspectors. Big scandal.
Mostly for taking bribes to overlook violations I think, but taking
kickbacks from electrical contractors was part of the mix.
That's my maybe boring story about codes, inspectors and electricians.
I like it anyway.

Well, I didn't find it boring. That kind of story makes my blood boil, but
I've lived with them all my life. The foundation and basement of my parent's
house was built by the son of Sam the Plumber DeCavalcante. (g he was a
high school friend of mine and he built a fine basement).



What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go
along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.

No, you don't. The NEC is researched, tested, organized and written by
volunteers, who hire professionals to do the professional parts of it.


I meant I pay the inspector's salaries. They have a book they can use
to hammer me with, no different than law.

Based on the court case that was brought up here on Sunday, it's all moot,
anyway. It's Katie Bar the Doors -- copyrights are broken once a code is
incorporated into law.

I don't like it, but that's the way it is.


snip


Vic, the Code is not produced by government. It's produced by the National
Fire Protection Association. Do you want to pay them with taxpayer's
money?

Since you can get free access to it according to law, it's no big
deal. I didn't know that.
That almost takes care of my "philosophical" objections.
I take your point about who pays, and what's the most efficient way
of getting code created in one place.
I'm not foaming at the mouth about this.
Ed, if I wanted the entire NEC I would just pay the 60-70 bucks for
it.
What got me going on this is I do my own plumbing and simple
electrical work. I always want to follow code.
You made me look harder on my town's website.
The plumbing code for my town is the Illinois Plumbing Code, 2004
Edition (with local amendments.) I can order that for 40 bucks.
From the Illinois Department of Public Health!
Electrical is Chicago Electrical Code, 2007 edition with local
amendments. That's on-line. Clumsy to use, but it's there.
I also found the amendments to those two on the town website with a
little digging.
Here's a plumbing amendment that's relevant to a discussion of floor
drains here a while back,

"890.1370a). Add a new subparagraph 6):
In addition to the above, at least one vented floor drain is required
in the vicinity of all washing machines, furnaces, hot water heaters,
boilers, reduced pressure backflow preventers, and water meters."

Another plumbing amendment is the addition of some chapters of the
2003 International Plumbing Code. That book has to be bought.
HVAC codes are covered by International Mechanical Code, 2003.
That one has to be bought.

For the sake of comparison I looked at how Ohio villages do it.
The examples I saw all referenced the Ohio Building Code, with no
amendments. That's easy, just look up the Ohio code.
But the Ohio code essentially says read the 2006 International
Building Code.
Looks like that has to be bought.
Anyway, my head is spinning, but now I know how to find codes, whether
they're free or not.
The electrical code is all online, so I don't even care about the NEC.
But after wading through some of the code, I might just ask the guy at
Home Depot what he thinks. Nah.
I'll just ask here.
If I was in a trade, I'd just buy the books, like I did many times for
doing my IT work.

--Vic

I read that court case (5th Circuit) and I can see their reasoning for it.
As a practical matter, the NFPA's membership has an interest in getting it
accepted and widely used. So there is an interest there that, the court
says, overcomes any problems with who is paying whom.

I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his work
taken away.

BTW, my library has a good set of code books and I've used them for over 30
years. They're in the reference section so you can't take them out, but it
works for me. If I were working on my plumbing or electrical night and day,
like I did 30 years ago, I might feel differently.

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 25, 12:48*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

On 4/24/2011 11:13 PM, wrote:
On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 20:50:23 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Me, not seeing it either.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Steve wrote in message
...


Refresh your newsgroups. It is new. I see it

thanks for the suggestion. still not seeing it.


Maybe your ISP is blocking it. I know Giganews has it because I
clicked the link in the OPs note and went right to it in Agent.

I looked and there were a bunch of old NSA documents that were more
interesting to me. The ones on the German Enigma machine are pretty
cool. (declassified public domain stuff Ed)

i found it. i had to scroll down through the list, first picking alt,
then binaries, etc. It would not search out by typing it in. Seems
i've had this issue before with TB.

didn't find any NEC on the group, however. As a matter of fact, there
was only ONE post in the whole group.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

On Apr 24, 3:59*am, Higgs Boson wrote:
On Apr 23, 5:05*pm, dpb wrote:









On 4/23/2011 6:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:26 pm,
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, *wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
*wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

The don't have legal authority first off...

Second, I'd expect from the rest of the general theology, He would also
respect personal property and fully understand intellectual property
rights as well...altho I think both are somewhat mundane topics compared
to the area of real concern expressed in the message...

--

Say what? *Smashing up the money-changers' booths at the Temple! *NO
respect for private property!!!

(Test: Who knows why the so-called money changers were actually ng at
the plaza before the actual entrance to the Temple?)

HB

I thought I'd tackle your question for the sake of my education. Was
it because they were exchanging roman coins that bore "craven images"
for local money that was acceptable inside the temple?
--
Tom Horne

On 4/24/2011 2:59 AM, Higgs Boson wrote:
....

Say what? Smashing up the money-changers' booths at the Temple! NO
respect for private property!!!
....

Different issue entirely...

--

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 12:48 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the
idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

My son works for one of those policy institutes, in health care. It works
mostly on government consulting contracts, with some foreign and private
contracts tossed in.


I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

That's a dilemma that results from inherent conflicts between a democratic
government and private capitalism. We muddle through, but it's a
case-by-case thing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

The Federal Reserve is one of the most extreme cases. It depends entirely on
the ability of the decision-makers, and their integrity in the face of
political pressure.

So far it's worked amazingly well, but we are now living through some of the
consequences of ideological conflicts within the Fed. There is no way that I
can see to improve it. Having Congress control it would be an absolute
disaster -- as it was, before the Fed was created.

--
Rf Jjimytrdd

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 12:48 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the
idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

My son works for one of those policy institutes, in health care. It works
mostly on government consulting contracts, with some foreign and private
contracts tossed in.


I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

That's a dilemma that results from inherent conflicts between a democratic
government and private capitalism. We muddle through, but it's a
case-by-case thing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

The Federal Reserve is one of the most extreme cases. It depends entirely
on the ability of the decision-makers, and their integrity in the face of
political pressure.

So far it's worked amazingly well, but we are now living through some of
the consequences of ideological conflicts within the Fed. There is no way
that I can see to improve it. Having Congress control it would be an
absolute disaster -- as it was, before the Fed was created.

--
Rf Jimytrdd

HAHahohoho...my fingers slipped off of the home keys while I was watching TV
over my shoulder. g

--
Ed Huntress

(Rf Jimytrdd, indeed...'sounds like a Lapp reindeer herder...)

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:44:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 12:48 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the
idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

My son works for one of those policy institutes, in health care. It works
mostly on government consulting contracts, with some foreign and private
contracts tossed in.


I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

That's a dilemma that results from inherent conflicts between a democratic
government and private capitalism. We muddle through, but it's a
case-by-case thing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

The Federal Reserve is one of the most extreme cases. It depends entirely
on the ability of the decision-makers, and their integrity in the face of
political pressure.

So far it's worked amazingly well, but we are now living through some of
the consequences of ideological conflicts within the Fed. There is no way
that I can see to improve it. Having Congress control it would be an
absolute disaster -- as it was, before the Fed was created.

--
Rf Jimytrdd

HAHahohoho...my fingers slipped off of the home keys while I was watching TV
over my shoulder. g

Over your shoulder? I have put my desktop on a portable laptop cart
like this:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-...ilver/11061200

Only I have it pushed over to the right and turned 90 where the long
part is sticking out in the room. I can see my TV and my computer at
the same time. The cart is over far enough so my recliner can put out
the leg rest. The tower is also turned 90 so it fits entirely on the
cart.

I still can't figure out why nothing gets done around here.

(BTW there is no way the tower in the picture can be a mid sized
tower. The cart is too narrow for it to fit the way it looks in the
picture) My mid sized tower measures 18 inches front to back. The
outside to outside distance of the two uprights on the table are only
10 3/4.

"Metspitzer" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:44:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 12:48 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the
idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his
work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

My son works for one of those policy institutes, in health care. It
works
mostly on government consulting contracts, with some foreign and private
contracts tossed in.


I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

That's a dilemma that results from inherent conflicts between a
democratic
government and private capitalism. We muddle through, but it's a
case-by-case thing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

The Federal Reserve is one of the most extreme cases. It depends
entirely
on the ability of the decision-makers, and their integrity in the face
of
political pressure.

So far it's worked amazingly well, but we are now living through some of
the consequences of ideological conflicts within the Fed. There is no
way
that I can see to improve it. Having Congress control it would be an
absolute disaster -- as it was, before the Fed was created.

--
Rf Jimytrdd

HAHahohoho...my fingers slipped off of the home keys while I was watching
TV
over my shoulder. g

Over your shoulder? I have put my desktop on a portable laptop cart
like this:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-...ilver/11061200

Only I have it pushed over to the right and turned 90 where the long
part is sticking out in the room. I can see my TV and my computer at
the same time. The cart is over far enough so my recliner can put out
the leg rest. The tower is also turned 90 so it fits entirely on the
cart.

I still can't figure out why nothing gets done around here.

(BTW there is no way the tower in the picture can be a mid sized
tower. The cart is too narrow for it to fit the way it looks in the
picture) My mid sized tower measures 18 inches front to back. The
outside to outside distance of the two uprights on the table are only
10 3/4.

That's very nice. That's a lot like the setup I used years ago, although
yours looks a lot nicer. Mine was a converted typing table. Now I have a
home-built corner desk that faces directly away from the TV. Usually I just
sort-of-listen to the news, but there was something I wanted to see and,
from habit, I just kept typing.

I always type my name so I don't forget it. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 15:57:08 -0400, wrote:

On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 14:58:55 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Metspitzer" wrote in message
. ..
On Mon, 25 Apr 2011 13:44:34 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
...

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 12:48 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
I just watch out for the underlying principle. For most of my life,
copyright has been an important issue in my work. I just don't like the
idea
that people should get all of that work for free.

This time, I'll reverse myself on the issue for this particular set of
circumstances. It's not like a private, individual writer having his
work
taken away.
...
Ed Huntress

I tossed this one out to see the reactions. I worked for MITRE, which
is structured as a private company doing public-interest consulting
funded by federal contracts, another approach to expert technical
assistance not subject to bureaucratic and political overhead.

My son works for one of those policy institutes, in health care. It
works
mostly on government consulting contracts, with some foreign and private
contracts tossed in.


I took the governmentese writing classes, though I wrote only manuals
and circuit descriptions. The instructor mostly discussed the various
administrative models from the rule-based formalism of a bank to the
wild-west power struggles Harold Geneen encouraged at ITT.

We have never agreed on a single model for functions that combine
private and public interest. We range from phone-pole monopolies for
otherwise private utilities through complete government control
(NASA), and some like water works may flop back and forth. Fire
departments were once private companies. In the case of the NEC
volunteers create standards that become law, a de facto practical
compromise between private special interest and elected authority.

That's a dilemma that results from inherent conflicts between a
democratic
government and private capitalism. We muddle through, but it's a
case-by-case thing.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Reserve_System
According to the Board of Governors, the Federal Reserve is
independent within government in that "its decisions do not have to be
ratified by the President or anyone else in the executive or
legislative branch of government." However, its authority is derived
from the U.S. Congress and is subject to congressional oversight.

jsw

The Federal Reserve is one of the most extreme cases. It depends
entirely
on the ability of the decision-makers, and their integrity in the face
of
political pressure.

So far it's worked amazingly well, but we are now living through some of
the consequences of ideological conflicts within the Fed. There is no
way
that I can see to improve it. Having Congress control it would be an
absolute disaster -- as it was, before the Fed was created.

--
Rf Jimytrdd

HAHahohoho...my fingers slipped off of the home keys while I was watching
TV
over my shoulder. g

Over your shoulder? I have put my desktop on a portable laptop cart
like this:
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Mainstays-...ilver/11061200

Only I have it pushed over to the right and turned 90 where the long
part is sticking out in the room. I can see my TV and my computer at
the same time. The cart is over far enough so my recliner can put out
the leg rest. The tower is also turned 90 so it fits entirely on the
cart.

I still can't figure out why nothing gets done around here.

(BTW there is no way the tower in the picture can be a mid sized
tower. The cart is too narrow for it to fit the way it looks in the
picture) My mid sized tower measures 18 inches front to back. The
outside to outside distance of the two uprights on the table are only
10 3/4.

That's very nice. That's a lot like the setup I used years ago, although
yours looks a lot nicer. Mine was a converted typing table. Now I have a
home-built corner desk that faces directly away from the TV. Usually I just
sort-of-listen to the news, but there was something I wanted to see and,
from habit, I just kept typing.

I always type my name so I don't forget it. d8-)

I am sitting in my Laz E Boy with a wireless keyboard on my lap,

There is no better computer chair than the Laz E Boy.

system unit and monitor are on a table next to me and the big screen
is in front of me. There is also a PC connected to the big screen with
a wireless workstation so I could use that if I wanted but it is
mostly a MP3 and Netflix machine when it is not on the satellite.
My wife has her monitor on the wall next to her chair and the system
unit is behind the chair. If you count the 3 DVRs there are 6
computers in this room (also 3 in my computer room, one in the kids
room and one out by the pool)

On Apr 25, 2:58*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
...
That's very nice. That's a lot like the setup I used years ago, although
yours looks a lot nicer. Mine was a converted typing table. Now I have a
home-built corner desk that faces directly away from the TV. Usually I just
sort-of-listen to the news, but there was something I wanted to see and,
from habit, I just kept typing....
Ed Huntress-

One of the three monitors in front of me is a small HDTV, a 22" Vizio
plugged into the computer that records HDTV. Usually it's switched
directly to the TV cable and the power-hungry computer turned off.

jsw

On 4/24/2011 5:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:32 pm, "Ed wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the
users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

Dan

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Tradesmen don't pay taxes???? News to me.

Amplifying on the other respondent's observation I'd carry it even further--

If you live in or anybody you do business with or whose products you use
are located in a jurisdiction which uses NEC as a basis for local code
you're a user.

In the US, there's virtually nowhere that doesn't use NEC as a basis for
local code but it is not, afaik, formally legislated to be legislative
requirement anywhere.

It's pervasive but doesn't actually have an legal standing as law, only
as a basis for Code.

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 4/24/2011 5:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:32 pm, "Ed wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the
users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

Dan

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Tradesmen don't pay taxes???? News to me.

Amplifying on the other respondent's observation I'd carry it even
further--

If you live in or anybody you do business with or whose products you use
are located in a jurisdiction which uses NEC as a basis for local code
you're a user.

In the US, there's virtually nowhere that doesn't use NEC as a basis for
local code but it is not, afaik, formally legislated to be legislative
requirement anywhere.

It's pervasive but doesn't actually have an legal standing as law, only as
a basis for Code.

So who else shall we subsidize with general tax money? If you read, I write.
You can subsidize me, if you're in that mode of thinking.

--
Ed Huntress

I think that's "graven", not craven?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tom Horne" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 3:59 am, Higgs Boson wrote:

(Test: Who knows why the so-called money changers were
actually ng at
the plaza before the actual entrance to the Temple?)

HB

I thought I'd tackle your question for the sake of my
education. Was
it because they were exchanging roman coins that bore
"craven images"
for local money that was acceptable inside the temple?
--
Tom Horne

" wrote:

On Apr 24, 6:06 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Raging socialism, once again. d8-)

--
Ed huntress

My idea of users is a bit broader. If you live in a house with
electricity, you are an indirect user of the NEC.


Which is paid by the manufacturers of electrical devices, and
insurance companies.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

On Apr 25, 6:16*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in ....
On 4/24/2011 5:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
*wrote in message
....
On Apr 24, 1:32 pm, "Ed *wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the
users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * Dan

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers are
the rest of us.

Tradesmen don't pay taxes???? *News to me.

Amplifying on the other respondent's observation I'd carry it even
further--

If you live in or anybody you do business with or whose products you use
are located in a jurisdiction which uses NEC as a basis for local code
you're a user.

In the US, there's virtually nowhere that doesn't use NEC as a basis for
local code but it is not, afaik, formally legislated to be legislative
requirement anywhere.

It's pervasive but doesn't actually have an legal standing as law, only as
a basis for Code.

So who else shall we subsidize with general tax money? If you read, I write.
You can subsidize me, if you're in that mode of thinking.

--
Ed Huntress

GET SOME MORE PARK KEEPERS, GARDENERS AND SANITATION CREWS TO WATCH
YOUR KIDS WHILE THEY ARE PLAYING IN THE PARK AND TO BEAUTIFY AND KEEP
YOUR DIRTY NEIGHBORHOODS CLEAN WHEN YOUR DIRTY KIDS AND WIVES LITTER
THE PLACE ALL UP LIKE THEY'RE FROM THE GHETTO AFTER WORK, SCHOOL AND
PLAY.

PAT ECUM

"The Ghost in The Machine" wrote in message
...
On Apr 25, 6:16 pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"dpb" wrote in
...
On 4/24/2011 5:06 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 1:32 pm, "Ed wrote:

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the
users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

Is there a difference?

Dan

The "users" are the tradesmen who use it in their work. The taxpayers
are
the rest of us.

Tradesmen don't pay taxes???? News to me.

Amplifying on the other respondent's observation I'd carry it even
further--

If you live in or anybody you do business with or whose products you use
are located in a jurisdiction which uses NEC as a basis for local code
you're a user.

In the US, there's virtually nowhere that doesn't use NEC as a basis for
local code but it is not, afaik, formally legislated to be legislative
requirement anywhere.

It's pervasive but doesn't actually have an legal standing as law, only
as
a basis for Code.

So who else shall we subsidize with general tax money? If you read, I
write.
You can subsidize me, if you're in that mode of thinking.

--
Ed Huntress

GET SOME MORE PARK KEEPERS, GARDENERS AND SANITATION CREWS TO WATCH
YOUR KIDS WHILE THEY ARE PLAYING IN THE PARK AND TO BEAUTIFY AND KEEP
YOUR DIRTY NEIGHBORHOODS CLEAN WHEN YOUR DIRTY KIDS AND WIVES LITTER
THE PLACE ALL UP LIKE THEY'RE FROM THE GHETTO AFTER WORK, SCHOOL AND
PLAY.

PAT ECUM

Wow. How about some more people to harvest whatever it is you're smokin' in
that pipe?

--
Ed Huntress

On 4/25/2011 5:16 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
....

So who else shall we subsidize with general tax money? If you read, I write.
You can subsidize me, if you're in that mode of thinking.

???

--

"dpb" wrote in message ...
On 4/25/2011 5:16 PM, Ed Huntress wrote:
...

So who else shall we subsidize with general tax money? If you read, I
write.
You can subsidize me, if you're in that mode of thinking.

???

If we're going to subsidize electricians by making complete files or
printouts of the code -- an essential tool of their work -- free, and if we
justify that by saying that everyone benefits, then when I write a tutorial
on wringing gage blocks or grinding high-speed steel, why shouldn't someone
pay for my dictionaries and stylebooks?

In other words, I don't necessarily object to the idea, it's just that I
don't think much of the selective nature of the subsidies. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

On Apr 26, 3:21*pm, "Ed Huntress" wrote:

If we're going to subsidize electricians by making complete files or
printouts of the code -- an essential tool of their work -- free, and if we
justify that by saying that everyone benefits, then when I write a tutorial
on wringing gage blocks or grinding high-speed steel, why shouldn't someone
pay for my dictionaries and stylebooks?


Ed Huntress

At least if you wrote an article on wringing gage blocks, you would
not add a paragraph every couple of years and require everyone that
wanted to wring gage blocks to buy the latest edition.

Well technically you are not required to buy the latest edition of the
NEC, but they sure do not sell a slim volume of the pen and ink
changes to bring a previous edition up to the current edition. If
they did sell something that had the differences in the latest edition
it would make understanding the code too easy and the NEC would not be
a barrier to reduce competition.

Dan

On 4/27/2011 1:24 AM, wrote:
On Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:56:00 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

At least if you wrote an article on wringing gage blocks, you would
not add a paragraph every couple of years and require everyone that
wanted to wring gage blocks to buy the latest edition.

Well technically you are not required to buy the latest edition of the
NEC, but they sure do not sell a slim volume of the pen and ink
changes to bring a previous edition up to the current edition. If
they did sell something that had the differences in the latest edition
it would make understanding the code too easy and the NEC would not be
a barrier to reduce competition.

Dan


That is becoming a common gripe about the NEC. They produce a new
cycle every 3 years. The proposal period for changes is only open
about a year of that and it usually takes the municipalities more than
a year to get the new code adopted. This means that by the time the
real users get familiar enough with the new code to find problems it
is too late to get it changed for the next cycle. As you pointed out
it also generates a lot of money for NFPA being able to sell new books
every 3 years. Most of the professionals end up with a code book, a
handbook and a summary of changes book ... at least.
Now they also want to charge you for the PDF too, even if you bought
the book (there were a few early additions with a coupon for a free
PDF load included but they stopped that)

You are responding to a couple people that are presumably at the
crosspost at rec.crafts.metalworking but you are not crossposting there.