On Sun, 24 Apr 2011 00:48:43 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...


What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?


I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

Codes apply to the businesses that do the work.


Codes apply to homeowners too.
Let's break for a story. Not because it's too relevant, but just
because.
A neighbor across the alley lit his garage up using gasoline to clean
his motorcycle.
Don't know all the details, but the fire took out my electric service
legs and blistered the big doors on both my garages.
The city (Chicago) required I get a new service with outside meter.
Okay, made sense, but I wasn't exactly flush.
And I'm now connected to inspectors. On their list.
First electric contractor I had out for an estimate wanted about $1000
to do the meter and leg hookup. Told him I would call him.
Let's call him McCoy.
(Estimated numbers just to show relative cost. I don't remember exact
numbers, and don't even remember what we did for power.
Probably ComEd hooked it up without a meter, but that's dim.)

Second guy came out the same day, and said $500.
Even putting price aside, I liked him better.
Told him I would call him, but he probably had the job.
I called the first guy , McCoy, and told him I was getting the job
done at half his price. He was surprised and asked who.
I told him Fifth Avenue Electric. FAE for short.
He hit the roof, and told me they weren't licensed, they buy their
permits, just call the city inspection office, blah, blah.
Anyway, I bought it.
Last thing I want is unlicensed work, and inspectors on my ass.
So I told McCoy to come out and finalize the deal.

I called the "unlicensed" guy back and told him that I was told his
company wasn't licensed, and I couldn't go with him.
He told me any work he did would be legal, but I told him I didn't
want to take any chances. He didn't press me.
I was actually a little disappointed in him, but that was because I
didn't know "the system."

Now in the meantime I had a visit from the city inspector.
He walked through the basement and told me fix this and fix that.
A ceiling light over the laundry tub needed a porcelain fixture, and a
junction box needed a cover.
He looked at me and pointedly said, "I'm not going upstairs."
That made me happy, and I asked him to repeat it.
My house was a 2-flat, built in the 1920's, with original electrics.
Imagine the code violations.

So McCoy comes riding in on a new Honda Gold Wing to do a contract.
I won't get into this except to say I'm a Harley guy.
Not that I ride, but that's what I would ride.
First thing McCoy wants to do is inspect the entire house to see what
has to be done.
I tell him I talked to the inspector and he won't go past the
basement.
McCoy made a mistake and wanted to argue about that.
"My reputation" bull****.
And he wouldn't back down, and stuck to that line.
Instead of getting the service job and minor fixes, he ****ed me off
so badly I almost hit him. I basically ran him back to his bike.
I was so ****ed I went right to the phone and called FAE.
Just told him to come out and do the job.
Mostly to get back at that asshole McCoy, since I still had concerns
about permitting, but it worked out anyway.

When FAE came out first thing he said was "I really thought I lost
you. What happened?" I told him about my run-in with McCoy.
Anyway, we became friendly fast, and he told me the city pulled his
company's license because they wouldn't kick back to inspectors.
His dad owned the company, was a long time electric contractor and
would never swing that way.
This guy was my age, about 30 then, and had 10 brothers!
I met about 5 of them as they worked on my place.
He explained that they had so many friends in the business to pull
permits for them that it hardly slowed them down.
And it was all legal, so no worry about the inspector.
You don't have to be licensed to do the work, just to pull the permit.
Think about that.
He told me I really needed some more circuits, switches and outlets
upstairs and he would run them for 25 bucks each if I did the
re-plastering. I told him I was short on money, and he said don't
worry, pay me when you can.
Owed him about $500 when he was done, paid him in a couple months.
No problem with the inspector, and he didn't go upstairs.

A few months later FAE dropped by to return some camping/outdoors
books he had borrowed from me and told me the whole story.
His dad was wearing a wire for the feds while he and his brothers
worked on my house.
Mike Royko wrote a column about his dad wearing the wire.
I read that column once, on the internet I think, but can't find it
now. 1978. Feds indicted one third of the city electrical
inspectors. Big scandal.
Mostly for taking bribes to overlook violations I think, but taking
kickbacks from electrical contractors was part of the mix.
That's my maybe boring story about codes, inspectors and electricians.
I like it anyway.


What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.

No, you don't. The NEC is researched, tested, organized and written by
volunteers, who hire professionals to do the professional parts of it.


I meant I pay the inspector's salaries. They have a book they can use
to hammer me with, no different than law.

snip


Vic, the Code is not produced by government. It's produced by the National
Fire Protection Association. Do you want to pay them with taxpayer's money?

Since you can get free access to it according to law, it's no big
deal. I didn't know that.
That almost takes care of my "philosophical" objections.
I take your point about who pays, and what's the most efficient way
of getting code created in one place.
I'm not foaming at the mouth about this.
Ed, if I wanted the entire NEC I would just pay the 60-70 bucks for
it.
What got me going on this is I do my own plumbing and simple
electrical work. I always want to follow code.
You made me look harder on my town's website.
The plumbing code for my town is the Illinois Plumbing Code, 2004
Edition (with local amendments.) I can order that for 40 bucks.
From the Illinois Department of Public Health!
Electrical is Chicago Electrical Code, 2007 edition with local
amendments. That's on-line. Clumsy to use, but it's there.
I also found the amendments to those two on the town website with a
little digging.
Here's a plumbing amendment that's relevant to a discussion of floor
drains here a while back,

"890.1370a). Add a new subparagraph 6):
In addition to the above, at least one vented floor drain is required
in the vicinity of all washing machines, furnaces, hot water heaters,
boilers, reduced pressure backflow preventers, and water meters."

Another plumbing amendment is the addition of some chapters of the
2003 International Plumbing Code. That book has to be bought.
HVAC codes are covered by International Mechanical Code, 2003.
That one has to be bought.

For the sake of comparison I looked at how Ohio villages do it.
The examples I saw all referenced the Ohio Building Code, with no
amendments. That's easy, just look up the Ohio code.
But the Ohio code essentially says read the 2006 International
Building Code.
Looks like that has to be bought.
Anyway, my head is spinning, but now I know how to find codes, whether
they're free or not.
The electrical code is all online, so I don't even care about the NEC.
But after wading through some of the code, I might just ask the guy at
Home Depot what he thinks. Nah.
I'll just ask here.
If I was in a trade, I'd just buy the books, like I did many times for
doing my IT work.

--Vic