I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have
any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have
any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. Yes, the
smell can come back. Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi offer $24,000 adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi Ins Co offer $1.2 million adjuster settlement $3
million+

On Mar 30, 10:32*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

Helped gut a friends fire damaged home. Its really impossible to scrub
out the smell of smoke, tobacco smoke or urine it aalways comes back
in moist weather.

All you can do is seal it in!

In the fire damaged areas gut and clean seal EVERYTHING with bin or
kilz primer sealer. Studs, framing the works. New insulation.

Then do the drywall work etc. Prime walls with that same bin or kilz.

Sand and refinish floors use OUTDOOR POLYURETHANE, seal odors in, cant
scrub out odors.

You basicaly do the kilz bin thing thru entire building.

Insurance should pay for bring fire damaged areas up to code, GFCIs,
insulation etc, you can make out on these.

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

Toss all clothe covered furnishings they arent worth the effort! The
smell will never leave, unless you get them totally reupholstered. For
most modern sofas etc its cheaper to buy new

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"ransley" wrote in message
...
I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have
any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. Yes, the
smell can come back. Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi offer $24,000 adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi Ins Co offer $1.2 million adjuster settlement $3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. I wrecked my bike. Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. Adjuster sent me a check for $180. I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. They ended up paying the $600. Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?
www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

On Mar 31, 12:06*am, "Steve B" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...





"ransley" wrote in message
...
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. *I wrecked my bike. *Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. *Adjuster sent me a check for $180. *I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. *They ended up paying the $600. *Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. *Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com


That is not the case on damages to real estate...

In fact your insurance company may take quite a while to pay off the
full claim in several increments...

The first check you get is often barely "getting started money" and
is not a final acceptance of the claim payoff...

~~ Evan

On Mar 30, 11:24*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:32*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



"ransley" wrote in message

...

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

Helped gut a friends fire damaged home. Its really impossible to scrub
out the smell of smoke, tobacco smoke or urine it aalways comes back
in moist weather.

All you can do is seal it in!

In the fire damaged areas gut and clean seal EVERYTHING with bin or
kilz primer sealer. Studs, framing the works. New insulation.

Then do the drywall work etc. Prime walls with that same bin or kilz.

Sand and refinish floors use OUTDOOR POLYURETHANE, seal odors in, cant
scrub out odors.

You basicaly do the kilz bin thing thru entire building.

Insurance should pay for bring fire damaged areas up to code, GFCIs,
insulation etc, you can make out on these.

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

Toss all clothe covered furnishings they arent worth the effort! The
smell will never leave, unless you get them totally reupholstered. For
most modern sofas etc its cheaper to buy new


As ransley is the LANDLORD he and his insurance coverage is only
concerned with rebuilding and restoring the structure to its legally
required condition to be used as rental property...

Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

The tenant's claims to their insurers for any damages to their
property is totally separate from ransley's loss and damage
claims for the building itself...

~~ Evan

On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:
* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.


Well ransley the question here is whether you want the work done
right so you will never have any complaints in the future, or you
choose
to go along with only what your insurance will cover and deal with any
issues that come up later on by yourself out-of-pocket once the claim
has been settled...

Umm... As far as my fire damage experience goes, it is limited to
commercial buildings... Complete stripping of any sheetrock in the
fire/heavy smoke damaged areas and any carpeting which had contact
with the odor and/or run off water from the fire fighting efforts
spoil it...

How many units in the building ? How many effected by the damage ?

If you are opening up the walls, that might open up a can of worms...
Would the electrical be up to current code ? Plumbing ? Would you
have to install sprinkler protection (not sure what your local codes
are)...

I assume your occupancy certificate was revoked due to the fire damage
for at least several of the worst damaged units if not the entire
building...

The questions you should be asking your local AHJ is "What do I need
to do to pass inspection and get new certificates of occupancy?"
rather
than what you should be going back and forth with your insurance
company
over... Prioritize the work by repairing the less damaged units so
you
can get some rental revenue back ASAP, but in order to do that you
need
to know what the scope of your work will be as far as what the AHJ is
going to require, not what your insurance company proposes you should
be compensated for...

You are either going to be spending your own money to get the project
going and battling with your insurer via an adjuster to get
compensated
or you will be getting payouts in increments for work specifically
approved
by the insurance company... Fighting to include work being required
by
the AHJ that the insurance company debates whether or not it should be
covered by the loss because the building has not been upgraded over
the
years prudently to keep up with the changes in the code
requirements...

As far as the smoke smell coming back -- what are the floors made of ?
Wood should be sanded and resealed with exterior polyurethane like
others have suggested... Carpets and padding should be discarded and
replaced, the sub-floor surface under any carpeting should be
sealed...

The concept is encapsulation the same with mold/water damage issues...

If you are concerned about the smells which are trapped inside the
walls
the only way to prevent that from being an issue is to gut the walls,
paint
anything structural which you will not remove and replace to
encapsulate
any odors which have been deposited and then rebuild the walls...

If the building is very old, this will give you an unprecedented
opportunity
to upgrade things which you would never have done under normal
circumstances -- if you are able to access any capital to reinvest in
your
apartment building now is the time to upgrade electrical, rewire rooms
so you can control wall outlets via a switch loop, install better
telephone,
cable and internet facilities which your tenants can utilize... Does
each
individual unit have its own water shut off valves so you can do work
in
one unit without shutting down the water to the entire building ? You
can
add sprinkler protection if your building doesn't have it now, every
wall
cavity can be insulated with mineral wool insulation adding more
passive
fire protection and sound deadening between the units and even rooms
within the same unit... Through this disaster you are being given an
opportunity to do a lot of things to bring your building into the
modern
era that most property owners would never dream of doing to a fully
rented apartment house... It all depends on whether you can access
funds and how thorough you want to be in making sure there will be
no further issues down the road... I mean if your tenants are
displaced
and rent elsewhere during the repair work, would you be informing the
new tenants that there was fire damage and that the building wasn't
gutted and fully repaired to ensure no smells or mold would occur in
the future from that disaster ? How long do you want to keep making
that disclosure before you can say you fully rebuilt the interiors of
the
effected units ? It isn't something you can just paint Kilz over and
walk away from especially if it is an older building...

~~ Evan

On Mar 31, 3:17*am, Evan wrote:
On Mar 31, 12:06*am, "Steve B" wrote:





"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...

"ransley" wrote in message
....
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need..
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. *I wrecked my bike. *Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. *Adjuster sent me a check for $180. *I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. *They ended up paying the $600. *Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. *Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

That is not the case on damages to real estate...

How could you know how every insurance company will]
handle damage claims to all real estate. They certainly could
just offer a single check as settlement for the whole thing,
especially for damage that is well defined and limited to one
area.


In fact your insurance company may take quite a while to pay off the
full claim in several increments...

Yes, they may, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a vaild
point in being careful before you cash any check or sign anything
and understand what it means.



The first check you get is often barely "getting started money" and
is not a final acceptance of the claim payoff...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Often does not equal always.

Install wood stoves.

"Of course it smells like smoke"

On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:
* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Assume every unit that got smoke will need to be completely repainted,
carpet replaced, wood floors resealed. The sooner you have someone
start ventilating them the better. And get the fire damaged materials
out as soon as possible.

I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have
any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!


*The short answer is yes. Smoke will travel through all penetrations and
openings. Many many years ago I did a short stint with an electrical
contractor who specialized in insurance work. It was almost all fire jobs
and I think that smell still lingers in my nose. The good news is that
after a complete cleanup and everything is replaced or sealed, you would
never know that a fire took place. I don't know how you would get the smell
out of insulation except for replacement. Wood and drywall can be painted,
but even the wall switches and electrical outlets will smell of smoke. I'm
thinking that you would need to open up one side of a wall, remove and
dispose of the insulation, paint the inside of the wall studs and drywall,
install new insulation and close up the one side with new drywall.

In the meantime, I know it's cold outside, but open the windows a little and
start airing the place out. It will be better to work in if some of the
smell is gone.





I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:
* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Unless you plan on washing and painting the inside of all your duct
work (or replacing), there will always be a "possibility" for a smoke-
like smell to return.

From a financial standpoint, Seal as much as you can like the
electrical outlets, woodwork and etc., clean and paint everything you
can. There are Fire Restoration companies that can give you more
advice and what to use.

Let Google be your friend

Hank ~~~ 27 yr Firefighter

On Mar 31, 8:26*am, "
wrote:
On Mar 31, 3:17*am, Evan wrote:



On Mar 31, 12:06*am, "Steve B" wrote:

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...

"ransley" wrote in message
...
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. *I wrecked my bike. *Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. *Adjuster sent me a check for $180. *I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. *They ended up paying the $600. *Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. *Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

That is not the case on damages to real estate...

How could you know how every insurance company will]
handle damage claims to all real estate. *They certainly could
just offer a single check as settlement for the whole thing,
especially for damage that is well defined and limited to one
area.



In fact your insurance company may take quite a while to pay off the
full claim in several increments...

Yes, they may, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have a vaild
point in being careful before you cash any check or sign anything
and understand what it means.



The first check you get is often barely "getting started money" and
is not a final acceptance of the claim payoff...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Often does not equal always.


Umm... Because, with damages to a building quite a lot of damage
can be concealed within walls where it is not immediately visible to
inspectors -- the settlement offer on a car or vehicle is take it or
leave
it -- you can keep your vehicle with a salvage title but that is
determined
by the insurance company...

Buildings are worth much more and unless it is was a total loss
incident
you wouldn't have one final settlement amount offered in the
beginning...

In order to engage contractors to begin repairs to the building they
need
a down payment for retainer -- unlike with auto damage repair which is
payable on delivery of the repaired vehicle...

So you would get an initial payment to get you started with the repair
work with a real estate property damage claim... That is an insurance
industry standard practice... What, did you think they would send out
a check for $500,000 a few weeks after the fire to cover your claim in
full ?

~~ Evan

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:08:49 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by

Sorry to hear this.

many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have

Only a trifle. And the fire was elsewhere so this is just how long
the wood smelled.

Long ago, I came across a 6' wide, 6' high booksshelf that was badly
buurned on one side and someone burned on the other (on the backboard
80 square inches of iirc perforated masonite and one side 40 square
inches of 1" wood.) I went into the hardware store a few feet away,
bought a saw, cut it in half and took the good half home. It smelled
of smoke for 3 to 9 months**, the best I can recall, but less and less
of course, and after it stopped smelling hot and humid weather didn't
bring the small back.


**I'm sure it would have been longer if I had put my nose up to the
burnt wood, but I'm only going by what I noticed when I came in the
house.

any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

In the mid 1990s when my grand mother died. I got her old
TV. Which stank of cigarettes. Amway had a glass cleaner, I
think was called Zoom. I diluted that about 1:10 with warm
water. Using that and a sponge really cleaned that smoke
off. Others have used Pine Sol, with great success. I've
found Simple Green to clean a lot of things.

Not sure about getting smoke smell out of wood. Best of
luck, hope it works out some how.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 19:52:12 -0400, mm
wrote:


Only a trifle. And the fire was elsewhere so this is just how long
the wood smelled.

Long ago, I came across a 6' wide, 6' high booksshelf that was badly
buurned on one side and someone burned on the other (on the backboard
80 square inches of iirc perforated masonite and one side 40 square
inches of 1" wood.) I went into the hardware store a few feet away,
bought a saw, cut it in half and took the good half home. It smelled
of smoke for 3 to 9 months**, the best I can recall, but less and less
of course, and after it stopped smelling hot and humid weather didn't
bring the small back.


**I'm sure it would have been longer if I had put my nose up to the
burnt wood, but I'm only going by what I noticed when I came in the
house.

Maybe I should add that I did nothing to the burnt wood that was left
to get rid of the smell. I didn't expect it to last so long, and I
don't think I wanted to spend time scraping off the ash and charcoal.

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Mar 30, 11:24*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:32*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:



"ransley" wrote in message

...

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

Helped gut a friends fire damaged home. Its really impossible to scrub
out the smell of smoke, tobacco smoke or urine it aalways comes back
in moist weather.

All you can do is seal it in!

In the fire damaged areas gut and clean seal EVERYTHING with bin or
kilz primer sealer. Studs, framing the works. New insulation.

Then do the drywall work etc. Prime walls with that same bin or kilz.

Sand and refinish floors use OUTDOOR POLYURETHANE, seal odors in, cant
scrub out odors.

You basicaly do the kilz bin thing thru entire building.

Insurance should pay for bring fire damaged areas up to code, GFCIs,
insulation etc, you can make out on these.

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

Toss all clothe covered furnishings they arent worth the effort! The
smell will never leave, unless you get them totally reupholstered. For
most modern sofas etc its cheaper to buy new


As ransley is the LANDLORD he and his insurance coverage is only
concerned with rebuilding and restoring the structure to its legally
required condition to be used as rental property...

Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.

The tenant's claims to their insurers for any damages to their
property is totally separate from ransley's loss and damage
claims for the building itself...

If they have insurance but the insurance company may well go after
whoever is at fault, especially if it is the owner of the building.


~~ Evan

On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 21:06:58 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


And they're sneaky MFs. I wrecked my bike. Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. Adjuster sent me a check for $180. I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. They ended up paying the $600. Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. Period.

You can write "Under Protest" above your endorsement.

They may have written "in full payment". I forget who wins if you
write your thing AND they write their thing.

Steve

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 06:09:49 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc
wrote:

On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:
* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Assume every unit that got smoke will need to be completely repainted,
carpet replaced,

The insurance company likely won't settle for his assumption. Either
they have to say it, or he has to get someone else to say it, or he
has to get one of those insurance adjuters to negotiate it.


wood floors resealed. The sooner you have someone
start ventilating them the better. And get the fire damaged materials
out as soon as possible.

And they may pay only the cost of depreciated carpeting, which is less
than what he'll likely have to pay for replacement. They'll probably
send an adjuster quickly, but he should talk to the adjuster. If he
rips up carpeting he could have kept, he'll have to come up with part
or all of the money to replace it.

On Mar 30, 9:32*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

...

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

I agree about the adjuster, the co I am using is doing that. Im just
worried about how the smoke traveled inside the walls and floors to
different apartments and if it can come back through the walls and
outlets etc.

On Mar 30, 10:24*pm, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:32*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:





"ransley" wrote in message

...

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

Helped gut a friends fire damaged home. Its really impossible to scrub
out the smell of smoke, tobacco smoke or urine it aalways comes back
in moist weather.

All you can do is seal it in!

In the fire damaged areas gut and clean seal EVERYTHING with bin or
kilz primer sealer. Studs, framing the works. New insulation.

Then do the drywall work etc. Prime walls with that same bin or kilz.

Sand and refinish floors use OUTDOOR POLYURETHANE, seal odors in, cant
scrub out odors.

You basicaly do the kilz bin thing thru entire building.

Insurance should pay for bring fire damaged areas up to code, GFCIs,
insulation etc, you can make out on these.

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

Toss all clothe covered furnishings they arent worth the effort! The
smell will never leave, unless you get them totally reupholstered. For
most modern sofas etc its cheaper to buy new- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ive talked to many many contractors, the only ones that I find that
know what they are doing 100% are the fire restoration companies, I
think it depends on the type of fire and how much it affected to
determine what you need.

On Mar 30, 11:06*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...







"ransley" wrote in message
...
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. *I wrecked my bike. *Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. *Adjuster sent me a check for $180. *I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. *They ended up paying the $600. *Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. *Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thats kinda of what I am seeing also

On Mar 31, 2:17*am, Evan wrote:
On Mar 31, 12:06*am, "Steve B" wrote:





"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

...

"ransley" wrote in message
....
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. *Yes, the
smell can come back. *Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. *They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. *I know
of two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the
adjuster got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need..
Restaurant fi *offer $24,000 *adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi *Ins Co offer $1.2 million *adjuster settlement *$3
million+

And they're sneaky MFs. *I wrecked my bike. *Took it in for estimates, which
were around $600. *Adjuster sent me a check for $180. *I wrote VOID on it,
and sent it back. *They ended up paying the $600. *Once you endorse that
check, it's case closed. *Period.

Steve

Heart surgery pending?www.cabgbypasssurgery.com

That is not the case on damages to real estate...

In fact your insurance company may take quite a while to pay off the
full claim in several increments...

The first check you get is often barely "getting started money" and
is not a final acceptance of the claim payoff...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

100% true.

On Mar 31, 2:48*am, Evan wrote:
On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:





* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Well ransley the question here is whether you want the work done
right so you will never have any complaints in the future, or you
choose
to go along with only what your insurance will cover and deal with any
issues that come up later on by yourself out-of-pocket once the claim
has been settled...

Umm... *As far as my fire damage experience goes, it is limited to
commercial buildings... *Complete stripping of any sheetrock in the
fire/heavy smoke damaged areas and any carpeting which had contact
with the odor and/or run off water from the fire fighting efforts
spoil it...

How many units in the building ? *How many effected by the damage ?

If you are opening up the walls, that might open up a can of worms...
Would the electrical be up to current code ? *Plumbing ? *Would you
have to install sprinkler protection (not sure what your local codes
are)...

I assume your occupancy certificate was revoked due to the fire damage
for at least several of the worst damaged units if not the entire
building...

The questions you should be asking your local AHJ is "What do I need
to do to pass inspection and get new certificates of occupancy?"
rather
than what you should be going back and forth with your insurance
company
over... *Prioritize the work by repairing the less damaged units so
you
can get some rental revenue back ASAP, but in order to do that you
need
to know what the scope of your work will be as far as what the AHJ is
going to require, not what your insurance company proposes you should
be compensated for...

You are either going to be spending your own money to get the project
going and battling with your insurer via an adjuster to get
compensated
or you will be getting payouts in increments for work specifically
approved
by the insurance company... *Fighting to include work being required
by
the AHJ that the insurance company debates whether or not it should be
covered by the loss because the building has not been upgraded over
the
years prudently to keep up with the changes in the code
requirements...

As far as the smoke smell coming back -- what are the floors made of ?
Wood should be sanded and resealed with exterior polyurethane like
others have suggested... *Carpets and padding should be discarded and
replaced, the sub-floor surface under any carpeting should be
sealed...

The concept is encapsulation the same with mold/water damage issues...

If you are concerned about the smells which are trapped inside the
walls
the only way to prevent that from being an issue is to gut the walls,
paint
anything structural which you will not remove and replace to
encapsulate
any odors which have been deposited and then rebuild the walls...

If the building is very old, this will give you an unprecedented
opportunity
to upgrade things which you would never have done under normal
circumstances -- if you are able to access any capital to reinvest in
your
apartment building now is the time to upgrade electrical, rewire rooms
so you can control wall outlets via a switch loop, install better
telephone,
cable and internet facilities which your tenants can utilize... *Does
each
individual unit have its own water shut off valves so you can do work
in
one unit without shutting down the water to the entire building ? *You
can
add sprinkler protection if your building doesn't have it now, every
wall
cavity can be insulated with mineral wool insulation adding more
passive
fire protection and sound deadening between the units and even rooms
within the same unit... *Through this disaster you are being given an
opportunity to do a lot of things to bring your building into the
modern
era that most property owners would never dream of doing to a fully
rented apartment house... *It all depends on whether you can access
funds and how thorough you want to be in making sure there will be
no further issues down the road... *I mean if your tenants are
displaced
and rent elsewhere during the repair work, would you be informing the
new tenants that there was fire damage and that the building wasn't
gutted and fully repaired to ensure no smells or mold would occur in
the future from that disaster ? *How long do you want to keep making
that disclosure before you can say you fully rebuilt the interiors of
the
effected units ? *It isn't something you can just paint Kilz over and
walk away from especially if it is an older building...

~~ *Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I want it fixed right the right way so there are no issues when its
95-100 outside with 90% humidity, Its a 14 unit with 4 badly affected
by smoke, only one burnt, 2 hallways, and 4 that have had smoke on
walls and its inside the walls opened up, I get code upgrade on the
insurance and have a fire restoration co. Im wondering if smoke that
traveled in the floors and walls will affect more than I can see or
smell now, since now the heat is off and its maybe 45f inside. 4 units
are still rented but one tenant moved from the as she said smoke
smell was comming up through the radiator pipe openings, [what going
to happen when its 90f- 100f and 90% humidity?

I see what you are saying and agree, its a real mess, I had someone
just walk through yesterday and they got a headache and said they
never get headaches, its from the smoke smell.

Floors are oak, and vinyl in kitchens, Can sanding oak cure whats
underneath that the smoke went through the ceilings? And will
Polyurethane keep out that smoke smell? What I am seeing is that smoke
damage is 90% - 95% of the problem and job cost.

Yes all that you have said I see as true, what a mess I have alot to
learn on my first fire. Its good I have code upgrades so I will be
calling the citys inspectors alot to be sure we do it right, but how
do you Know, if you open a wall several apartments away and test it
with a rubber sponge and its dark, that smoke that will not smell
later comming in the fixtures and outlets etc? How do you test and
know when you are ok and to stop? I cant risk loosing tenants because
they complain about smoke next year when its 90f outside and the job
is closed and finished. What I do now will determine everything of the
future.

In article ,
mm wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:



Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.

I'm with Evan here, tenants are responsible for insuring their own
stuff. This is so well-established that short of the landlord being
caught intentionally torching the place I doubt that a tenant or his
insurance company would ever win a suit against anyone else for loss of
personal possessions.

On Mar 31, 8:57*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*The short answer is yes. *Smoke will travel through all penetrations and
openings. * Many many years ago I did a short stint with an electrical
contractor who specialized in insurance work. *It was almost all fire jobs
and I think that smell still lingers in my nose. *The good news is that
after a complete cleanup and everything is replaced or sealed, you would
never know that a fire took place. *I don't know how you would get the smell
out of insulation except for replacement. *Wood and drywall can be painted,
but even the wall switches and electrical outlets will smell of smoke. *I'm
thinking that you would need to open up one side of a wall, remove and
dispose of the insulation, paint the inside of the wall studs and drywall,
install new insulation and close up the one side with new drywall.

In the meantime, I know it's cold outside, but open the windows a little and
start airing the place out. *It will be better to work in if some of the
smell is gone.





*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But if it comes through all openings like switches, sockets, fixtures,
then what you are saying is the wall has to be opened up, so then the
studs can be sealed with primer. its basicly gut everything where
there is smoke inside walls?

On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:
Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

On Mar 31, 12:43*pm, Oren wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 20:24:44 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

OP: Glad nobody was hurt, right?

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

That may or may not be true, I don't know. There are specialty
companies that do forensic clean-up and such. *Dead bodies found in
homes, many days after the death. You know you need a pro company.

Everybody got out ok. True smoke damage isnt like a flood, smoke goes
everywhere up and around and just continues. The biggest mistake is
getting someone that doesnt do a complete job besause they dont
understand fires, and next year I would have many units un rentable
from lingering smoke, when the job is closed, I cant go back to the
insurance co if that happens.

On Mar 31, 6:52*pm, mm wrote:
On Wed, 30 Mar 2011 17:08:49 -0700 (PDT), ransley

wrote:
* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by

Sorry to hear this.

many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have

Only a trifle. *And *the fire was elsewhere so this is just how long
the wood smelled.

Long ago, I came across a 6' wide, 6' high booksshelf that was badly
buurned on one side and someone burned on the other (on the backboard
80 square inches of iirc perforated masonite and one side 40 square
inches of 1" wood.) *I went into the hardware store a few feet away,
bought a saw, cut it in half and took the good half home. * It smelled
of smoke for 3 to 9 months**, the best I can recall, but less and less
of course, and after it stopped smelling hot and humid weather didn't
bring the small back.

**I'm sure it would have been longer if I had put my nose up to the
burnt wood, but I'm only going by what I noticed when I came in the
house.



any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Things air out, but closed walls?

On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 07:20:49 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
mm wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:



Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.

I'm with Evan here, tenants are responsible for insuring their own
stuff. This is so well-established

It's well established that a tenant should have insurance. If he
wants to be sure to be reimbursed, but that doesn't mean the landlord
can't be liable. A tenant needs insurance because A) The tenant
himself may start the fire, so of course the LL won't pay. B) The
landlord probably owns the building through a corporation that owns
only this one building, so with a big enough fire, the corporation may
go bankrupt, etc. C) If a neighbor starts the fire, he may skip or
have no assets.

that short of the landlord being
caught intentionally torching the place I doubt that a tenant or his
insurance company would ever win a suit against anyone else for loss of
personal possessions.

You're way off base. If the landlord's intentional act OR negligence
causes the fire, the LL has to pay.

I'm not talking about where a repair is needed in an apartment and the
tenant doesn't notify the ll, or doesn't let him know it's gotten
worse, or doesn't stop using something where using it creates a bigger
risk. In that case, the tenant may be all or partly liable for the
damage to his apartment and its contents (and the rest of the
building), and the LL will likely rely on his own insurance for
repairs to the building.

But in a suit by a different tenant who also had fire or water damage,
both a negligent tenant and a less negligent landlord can be held
liable, either proprotionally or jointly, depending on the US state
one lives in.


But fires start in the hall and common areas, in the landlord, super,
or janitor's apartment, or in the basement, and if it's the LL's
negligence or attributed to him, he owe tenants for their
possesssions, and if they have to move out, may well owe them if their
rent at another location is more than their rent under the lease.


BTW, some tenants have money; some are rich. Most apartment buildings
in NYC are cooperatives now, but I'd be surprised if was every single
one of them was. Some tenants have enough money to make it worth
suing them, by the LL and by the neighbors. Of course most of these
people aren't jackasses and don't start fires, but accidents happen.

And come to think iof it, even if it is a co-op or a condo, the co-op
or condo will sue the resident and/or owner who starts a fire, and so
will his injured neighbors.

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:25:27 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:


But if it comes through all openings like switches, sockets, fixtures,
then what you are saying is the wall has to be opened up, so then the
studs can be sealed with primer. its basicly gut everything where
there is smoke inside walls?

I think you should talk to a bunch of pros, who do fire restoration
for a living, and try to figure out what is likely to happen.

It seems only one or two people here have addressed your particular
question.

On Apr 1, 4:42*pm, mm wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:25:27 -0700 (PDT), ransley

wrote:

But if it comes through all openings like switches, sockets, fixtures,
then what you are saying is the wall has to be opened up, so then the
studs can be sealed with primer. its basicly gut everything where
there is smoke inside walls?

I think you should talk to a bunch of pros, who do fire restoration
for a living, and try to figure out what is likely to happen. *

It seems only one or two people here have addressed your particular
question.

I have talked to pros, but here I have gotten good info that confirms
what they say. A contractor wants more work, everyone here has no
motive for bs. It all helps to put it all in perspective.

On Apr 1, 4:48*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:
Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

What caused the fire? Appliances?

If a faulty appliance caused the fire, well, there are lawyers
chomping at the bit.

Short wiki: "Subrogation in its most common usage refers to
circumstances in which an insurance company tries to recoup expenses
for a claim it paid out when another party should have been
responsible for paying at least a portion of that claim."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

"ransley" wrote in message
news:d170b4dc-f844-4c33-b149-

stuff snipped

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

Yeow! Is this California? No wait, not at 0 degrees. California is what I
think when I hear the words "gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days. I read some Mexican gang has a nationwide dialup &
deliver heroin franchise and that they solict new customers in the parking
lots of drug rehab clinics. They use beater cars and burner phones and
never carry more than one delivery at a time. Even when they catch them,
they can't make trafficking stick because of the small amounts. Forfeiting
a beater Cheby and a $10 throw-away phone is not much of a penalty. When
they do manage to get themselves jailed, they recruit new members for their
crew.

Sorry about your loss. You can do everything right and still get nailed.
Who said there's no such that as luck? There's definitely good AND bad
luck! I went through a subzero fire. What the fire didn't burn, the
fireman chopped, drowned and froze. But this was a rowhouse and I
understand the need to keep fires contained quickly, especially on windy
nights, before they spread to other houses. I've known of whole blocks of
rowhouses that went up in flames from a single ignition point. When it was
all over it started snowing. It's an eerie feeling watching moonlit
snowflakes falling into what's left of your living room. )-:

--
Bobby G.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

stuff snipped

Short wiki: "Subrogation in its most common usage refers to
circumstances in which an insurance company tries to recoup expenses
for a claim it paid out when another party should have been
responsible for paying at least a portion of that claim."

There's a much, much worse word you can hear from your adjuster:
Coinsurance. I discovered that if you do not insure for the promised limit
of insurance your become a co-insurer when a loss occurs. You get to share
in the payout burden with the insurance company in paying part of the loss.
Policies typical require you insure to at least 90% of the property's value.

For example a $240,000 value at the time of loss multiplied by 80%
coinsurance (a factor of .80) equals $192,000.

$160,000 limits at the time of loss divided by 192,000, the limit required
(at the typical 90% coinsurance rate required in your contract) equals a
coinsurance penalty factor of .833.

$100,000 amount of loss multiplied by the .833 penalty factor equals $83,300

$83,300 minus the $2,000 deductible equals $81,300

The insurance company pays $81,300. You pay the remainder.

The math has most likely got an error in it, but anyone who's suffered a
loss in the last few years who hasn't substantially upgraded their policy
has likely run into this. It's very common in times of rapidly rising
housing values. "You know about coinsurance? were the first words out of my
adjustor's mouth *after* the fire. )-:

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 1, 6:15*am, mm wrote:
On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan



wrote:
On Mar 30, 11:24 pm, bob haller wrote:
On Mar 30, 10:32 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:

"ransley" wrote in message

....

I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now.

My question is does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, and have
any ideas on to how far a rebuild has to go? Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!!

I had some personal experience, but that was over 50 years ago. Yes, the
smell can come back. Cleaning technology has improved though, and they
should be able to make it undetectable.

You also need a good insurance adjuster. They get 5% of your total claim,
but can get you a lot more money that you can negotiate yourself. I know of
two examples where the insurance company offered little, but the adjuster
got lots for detail work, such as the cleaning you will need.
Restaurant fi offer $24,000 adjuster settlement $120,000
Industrial fi Ins Co offer $1.2 million adjuster settlement $3
million+

Helped gut a friends fire damaged home. Its really impossible to scrub
out the smell of smoke, tobacco smoke or urine it aalways comes back
in moist weather.

All you can do is seal it in!

In the fire damaged areas gut and clean seal EVERYTHING with bin or
kilz primer sealer. Studs, framing the works. New insulation.

Then do the drywall work etc. Prime walls with that same bin or kilz.

Sand and refinish floors use OUTDOOR POLYURETHANE, seal odors in, cant
scrub out odors.

You basicaly do the kilz bin thing thru entire building.

Insurance should pay for bring fire damaged areas up to code, GFCIs,
insulation etc, you can make out on these.

The fire restoration companies are a rip off, they charge unreal
prices for nothing.

Toss all clothe covered furnishings they arent worth the effort! The
smell will never leave, unless you get them totally reupholstered. For
most modern sofas etc its cheaper to buy new

As ransley is the LANDLORD he and his insurance coverage is only
concerned with rebuilding and restoring the structure to its legally
required condition to be used as rental property...

Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. *I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. *More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.



The tenant's claims to their insurers for any damages to their
property is totally separate from ransley's loss and damage
claims for the building itself...

If they have insurance but the insurance company may well go after
whoever is at fault, especially if it is the owner of the building.



~~ Evan


Nope... Landlord is NEVER responsible for damages to tenant's
contents unless some sort of intentional action took place --
i.e. arson, vandalism, etc. AND the tenant has absolute proof
that the landlord or landlord's agent is responsible... Just having
a suspicion or "feeling" that the landlord is at fault is not
enough...
Learn how civil liability works... Most nuisance claims are low
balled and closed with $10k-$20k for "personal injury" along with
a gag order for accepting the money to make things go away
and keep businesses from having their reputations damaged
by having records of many lawsuits being filed against them...

As far as finding someone for the various insurance companies
to blame and attempt to reclaim their collective losses from
(all of the tenants will not be covered by the same insurer unless
it is _THAT_ small of a town), well they can try, but that sort of
thing happens in a glacial scale of time, maybe in three to five
years will a civil case like that see the inside of a court room...

At any rate, the FIRE insurance coverage that a commercial
property owner carries is for the structure ONLY... Tenant's
furnishings are their own responsibility to insure... If some
sort of negligence is suspected there is general liability
coverage that any prudent business owner/operator would
carry to cover those types of losses... Common coverage
numbers I heard tossed out there for a property the size of
the one being discussed in this topic would be around
$2 million of coverage...

As far as "going after the owner of the building" and your
sentiments of "especially if it is this [their] fault" ROFL...
A landlord can not be omniscient, as long as malfeasence
or gross negligence can not be proven, good luck at pinning
it on any one person... Things fall apart and fail suddenly,
accidents happen, the world is random -- something installed
30 years ago before ransley every owned the building might
have been at fault, so should be be held accountable for
not stripping everything down and rebuilding when he bought
the place ? NO... That is why insurance exists...

~~ Evan

On Apr 1, 3:25*pm, ransley wrote:
On Mar 31, 8:57*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:



* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*The short answer is yes. *Smoke will travel through all penetrations and
openings. * Many many years ago I did a short stint with an electrical
contractor who specialized in insurance work. *It was almost all fire jobs
and I think that smell still lingers in my nose. *The good news is that
after a complete cleanup and everything is replaced or sealed, you would
never know that a fire took place. *I don't know how you would get the smell
out of insulation except for replacement. *Wood and drywall can be painted,
but even the wall switches and electrical outlets will smell of smoke. *I'm
thinking that you would need to open up one side of a wall, remove and
dispose of the insulation, paint the inside of the wall studs and drywall,
install new insulation and close up the one side with new drywall.

In the meantime, I know it's cold outside, but open the windows a little and
start airing the place out. *It will be better to work in if some of the
smell is gone.

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But if it comes through all openings like switches, sockets, fixtures,
then what you are saying is the wall has to be opened up, so then the
studs can be sealed with primer. its basicly gut everything where
there is smoke inside walls?


Ransley if this is such a concern, and you have that much air movement
inside the walls of your building, open up the bottom 6" to 8" of wall
around the perimeter of every room and firestop every penetration no
matter how small with the intumescent goop around every wire and
pipe...
If no air can move through the walls no odors can move either...

The only concern I would have would be how raunchy things would get
if you had some sort of a leak in one of the smoke damaged units down
the line and you hadn't gutted and encapsulated the non-damaged
non-removable structural elements that have smoke smell in them now...

~~ Evan

On Apr 1, 3:27*pm, ransley wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:

Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.


Define "re-done"...

Gutted to the studs and rebuilt out ?

Refinished floors, painted walls, redid kitchens ?

~~ Evan

On Apr 1, 5:37*pm, mm wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 07:20:49 -0700, Smitty Two



wrote:
In article ,
mm wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. *I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. *More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.

I'm with Evan here, tenants are responsible for insuring their own
stuff. This is so well-established

It's well established that a tenant should have insurance. *If he
wants to be sure to be reimbursed, but that doesn't mean the landlord
can't be liable. * A tenant needs insurance because *A) The tenant
himself may start the fire, so of course the LL won't pay. *B) The
landlord probably owns the building through a corporation that owns
only this one building, so with a big enough fire, the corporation may
go bankrupt, etc. *C) If a neighbor starts the fire, he may skip or
have no assets.

that short of the landlord being
caught intentionally torching the place I doubt that a tenant or his
insurance company would ever win a suit against anyone else for loss of
personal possessions.

You're way off base. * If the landlord's intentional act OR negligence
causes the fire, the LL has to pay. *

I'm not talking about where a repair is needed in an apartment and the
tenant doesn't notify the ll, or doesn't let him know it's gotten
worse, or doesn't stop using something where using it creates a bigger
risk. *In that case, the tenant may be all or partly liable for the
damage to his apartment and its contents (and the rest of the
building), and the LL will likely rely on his own insurance for
repairs to the building.

But in a suit by a different tenant who also had fire or water damage,
both a negligent tenant and a less negligent landlord can be held
liable, either proprotionally or jointly, depending on the US state
one lives in. * *

But fires start in the hall and common areas, in the landlord, super,
or janitor's apartment, or in the basement, and if it's the LL's
negligence or attributed to him, he owe tenants for their
possesssions, and if they have to move out, may well owe them if their
rent at another location is more than their rent under the lease.

BTW, some tenants have money; some are rich. Most apartment buildings
in NYC are cooperatives now, but I'd be surprised if was every single
one of them was. *Some tenants have enough money to make it worth
suing them, by the LL and by the neighbors. *Of course most of these
people aren't jackasses and don't start fires, but accidents happen.

And come to think iof it, even if it is a co-op or a condo, the co-op
or condo will sue the resident and/or owner who starts a fire, and so
will his injured neighbors. *


Let's address your inept reply:

A tenant can try to sue someone for such things, but unless they
can obtain really good absolute proof that such and such is
responsible for starting the fire through an intentional act, good
luck getting any money -- that is what insurance is for and why
a mature adult would have it...

What part of "landlord is not responsible for the tenant's contents"
period are you unable to grasp... The only way to have the landlord
or another tenant be responsible for contents is to have them on
video tape or have WITNESSES who saw them start the fire...
But that would be of little utility when the civil suit comes around
as they would already be convicted of arson by then and serving
a 20/25-ish year sentence... Prisoners don't have many assets...

A fire could start anywhere, the basement, the roof, a stairwell,
the front entry door -- for the landlord to have any liability you
would
have to prove an intentional act of negligence or malfeasance...
Not just that the fire originated in an area that was the
responsibility
of the landlord...

BTW, in a co-op or condo building -- the "apartments" or "units"
are separately deeded premises and taxed as such to their
individual owners... NOT the same as an apartment building
owned by one entity and rented by another... And the douche
bags who go nuts and sue for such things often end up surprised
that they end up paying part of the settlement to themselves as
they are an owner in the co-op and/or condo and every unit gets
special assessed to pay off a special expense... :-O Such things
are paid equally by all owners based on the square footage of
space owned...

Right, but in a co-op or condo, like I stated above the unit occupants
have property rights to a portion of the structure which they own
unlike rental apartment dwellers... Any damage caused to a co-op
or condo common area would be assessed a fee or a fine to repair
and if the party who caused such damage doesn't live up to their
responsibility, then either a lien on the deed which would need to
be paid off first from the proceeds of any sale would be attached,
a forcible foreclosure/eviction process begun or a lawsuit to recoup
the damages started depending on the decisions of those in charge...

~~ Evan