On Apr 1, 6:22*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 1, 4:48*pm, Oren wrote:



On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley

wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:
Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

What caused the fire? Appliances?

If a faulty appliance caused the fire, well, there are lawyers
chomping at the bit.

Short wiki: "Subrogation in its most common usage refers to
circumstances in which an insurance company tries to recoup expenses
for a claim it paid out when another party should have been
responsible for paying at least a portion of that claim."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,


The windows I understand, as the fire department needs to vent
the heat and smoke before they clear the scene to make sure
that the fire is actually put out and won't flashover again after they
leave...

But the doors ? Did this building not have a knox lockbox for keys ?

Seems like something you would want to look into...

~~ Evan

On Apr 1, 8:49*am, ransley wrote:
On Mar 31, 2:48*am, Evan wrote:



On Mar 30, 8:08*pm, ransley wrote:

* *I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

* My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

* I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.

Well ransley the question here is whether you want the work done
right so you will never have any complaints in the future, or you
choose
to go along with only what your insurance will cover and deal with any
issues that come up later on by yourself out-of-pocket once the claim
has been settled...

Umm... *As far as my fire damage experience goes, it is limited to
commercial buildings... *Complete stripping of any sheetrock in the
fire/heavy smoke damaged areas and any carpeting which had contact
with the odor and/or run off water from the fire fighting efforts
spoil it...

How many units in the building ? *How many effected by the damage ?

If you are opening up the walls, that might open up a can of worms...
Would the electrical be up to current code ? *Plumbing ? *Would you
have to install sprinkler protection (not sure what your local codes
are)...

I assume your occupancy certificate was revoked due to the fire damage
for at least several of the worst damaged units if not the entire
building...

The questions you should be asking your local AHJ is "What do I need
to do to pass inspection and get new certificates of occupancy?"
rather
than what you should be going back and forth with your insurance
company
over... *Prioritize the work by repairing the less damaged units so
you
can get some rental revenue back ASAP, but in order to do that you
need
to know what the scope of your work will be as far as what the AHJ is
going to require, not what your insurance company proposes you should
be compensated for...

You are either going to be spending your own money to get the project
going and battling with your insurer via an adjuster to get
compensated
or you will be getting payouts in increments for work specifically
approved
by the insurance company... *Fighting to include work being required
by
the AHJ that the insurance company debates whether or not it should be
covered by the loss because the building has not been upgraded over
the
years prudently to keep up with the changes in the code
requirements...

As far as the smoke smell coming back -- what are the floors made of ?
Wood should be sanded and resealed with exterior polyurethane like
others have suggested... *Carpets and padding should be discarded and
replaced, the sub-floor surface under any carpeting should be
sealed...

The concept is encapsulation the same with mold/water damage issues...

If you are concerned about the smells which are trapped inside the
walls
the only way to prevent that from being an issue is to gut the walls,
paint
anything structural which you will not remove and replace to
encapsulate
any odors which have been deposited and then rebuild the walls...

If the building is very old, this will give you an unprecedented
opportunity
to upgrade things which you would never have done under normal
circumstances -- if you are able to access any capital to reinvest in
your
apartment building now is the time to upgrade electrical, rewire rooms
so you can control wall outlets via a switch loop, install better
telephone,
cable and internet facilities which your tenants can utilize... *Does
each
individual unit have its own water shut off valves so you can do work
in
one unit without shutting down the water to the entire building ? *You
can
add sprinkler protection if your building doesn't have it now, every
wall
cavity can be insulated with mineral wool insulation adding more
passive
fire protection and sound deadening between the units and even rooms
within the same unit... *Through this disaster you are being given an
opportunity to do a lot of things to bring your building into the
modern
era that most property owners would never dream of doing to a fully
rented apartment house... *It all depends on whether you can access
funds and how thorough you want to be in making sure there will be
no further issues down the road... *I mean if your tenants are
displaced
and rent elsewhere during the repair work, would you be informing the
new tenants that there was fire damage and that the building wasn't
gutted and fully repaired to ensure no smells or mold would occur in
the future from that disaster ? *How long do you want to keep making
that disclosure before you can say you fully rebuilt the interiors of
the
effected units ? *It isn't something you can just paint Kilz over and
walk away from especially if it is an older building...

~~ *Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I want it fixed right the right way so there are no issues when its
95-100 outside with 90% humidity, Its a 14 unit with 4 badly affected
by smoke, only one burnt, 2 hallways, and 4 that have had smoke on
walls and its inside the walls opened up, I get code upgrade on the
insurance and have a fire restoration co. Im wondering if smoke that
traveled in the floors and walls will affect more than I can see or
smell now, since now the heat is off and its maybe 45f inside. 4 units
are still rented but one tenant moved *from the as she said smoke
smell was comming up through the radiator pipe openings, [what going
to happen when its 90f- 100f and 90% humidity?

I see what you are saying and agree, its a real mess, I had someone
just walk through yesterday and they got a headache and said they
never get headaches, its from the smoke smell.

*Floors are oak, and vinyl in kitchens, Can sanding oak cure whats
underneath that the smoke went through the ceilings? And will
Polyurethane keep out that smoke smell? What I am seeing is that smoke
damage is 90% - 95% of the problem and job cost.

Yes all that you have said I see as true, what a mess I have alot to
learn on my first fire. Its good I have code upgrades so I will be
calling the citys inspectors alot to be sure we do it right, but how
do you Know, if you open a wall several apartments away and test it
with a rubber sponge and its dark, *that smoke that will not smell
later comming in the fixtures and outlets etc? How do you test and
know when you are ok and to stop? I cant risk loosing tenants because
they complain about smoke next year when its 90f outside and the job
is closed and finished. What I do now will determine everything of the
future.


I don't have experience with smoke damaged wood flooring, but I have
seen a burnt-out area in a building where I used to work have the
concrete floor under the carpeting sandblasted and epoxy painted to
seal it in case of some future water issue...

What sort of fire alarm system did this building have installed prior
to the arson fire incident ? Might be worth some extra money spent
on your part to upgrade that even if it wouldn't be covered by anyone
as you wouldn't want to have any issues down the road...

Without knowing more about the layout of the building and where the
fire damage occurred I really can't offer specific advice as to what
to
do... It all depends on what has to be opened up and where... But
realistically like I said before, you will probably never be in a
position
to open up everything ever again unless another fire happens... This
is the time to do any upgrades you ever fantasized about doing as
there will never be a better time...

As to the tenants you have remaining in the building, have you
considered offering them reduced rental rates until the damages
can be repaired -- some rental revenue is better than none if they
decide to leave... Also setting up plastic containment areas and
a "sally port" between the occupied area and the damaged area
in any common access hallways then scrubbing down the occupied
areas even though they don't appear to be dirty would help any
odors dissipate faster... Do not allow any workers or people
coming to examine the fire scene to use the same entrance
to the building as the remaining occupants, they will track
the dirt and odor into the area where people have to live -- use
another entry even if it is inconvenient to access (such as
having to go downstairs to access a basement door and
come back up through the building where it would have been
much shorter to come in directly through the front door)...

I don't know what your situation is tenant wise, a lot of people
who have the means to move after a fire do so because of the
hassles of having to live elsewhere during the rebuilding phase
and a fire loss is one of the things in most leases that can
allow a tenant to break the lease without paying any penalty
or rent after the date of the fire, so many apartment renters
will do just that and only deal with moving once...

~~ Evan

On Apr 1, 10:04*pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

news:d170b4dc-f844-4c33-b149-

stuff snipped

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

Yeow! *Is this California? *No wait, not at 0 degrees. *California is what I
think when I hear the words "gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days. *I read some Mexican gang has a nationwide dialup &
deliver heroin franchise and that they solict new customers in the parking
lots of drug rehab clinics. *They use beater cars and burner phones and
never carry more than one delivery at a time. *Even when they catch them,
they can't make trafficking stick because of the small amounts. *Forfeiting
a beater Cheby and a $10 throw-away phone is not much of a penalty. *When
they do manage to get themselves jailed, they recruit new members for their
crew.

Sorry about your loss. *You can do everything right and still get nailed.
Who said there's no such that as luck? *There's definitely good AND bad
luck! * I went through a subzero fire. *What the fire didn't burn, the
fireman chopped, drowned and froze. *But this was a rowhouse and I
understand the need to keep fires contained quickly, especially on windy
nights, before they spread to other houses. *I've known of whole blocks of
rowhouses that went up in flames from a single ignition point. *When it was
all over it started snowing. *It's an eerie feeling watching moonlit
snowflakes falling into what's left of your living room. *)-:

--
Bobby G.

Yes gangs, in Chicago, just a few can ruin a neighborhood, or whole
town or maybe our country. They sure are ruining their home country
Mexico.

On Apr 1, 10:53*pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"

wrote:
"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days. *

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

I could not open it

On Apr 2, 3:20*am, Evan wrote:
On Apr 1, 3:25*pm, ransley wrote:





On Mar 31, 8:57*am, "John Grabowski" wrote:

* I had an apartment building fire with extensive smoke damage
affecting many apartments with smoke damage only. I have been told by
many contractors that when it is near 90f outside and humid the smoke
smell will re occur if it is not removed now. *It can get to 100f, 85%
humidity here, and there is no central air so I have prime weather for
re activating the dormant smoke smell. I have been told the high heat
periods are when the tenants will complain and move.

*My question is *does smoke that travels through the walls come back
into the next apartments through the openings, and outlets , walls?
Do any of you have direct fire , smoke damage experiance, *and have
any ideas on *to how far a rebuild has to go? *Are there any Fire Pro
guys out there? . The job keeps looking worse!

*The short answer is yes. *Smoke will travel through all penetrations and
openings. * Many many years ago I did a short stint with an electrical
contractor who specialized in insurance work. *It was almost all fire jobs
and I think that smell still lingers in my nose. *The good news is that
after a complete cleanup and everything is replaced or sealed, you would
never know that a fire took place. *I don't know how you would get the smell
out of insulation except for replacement. *Wood and drywall can be painted,
but even the wall switches and electrical outlets will smell of smoke.. *I'm
thinking that you would need to open up one side of a wall, remove and
dispose of the insulation, paint the inside of the wall studs and drywall,
install new insulation and close up the one side with new drywall.

In the meantime, I know it's cold outside, but open the windows a little and
start airing the place out. *It will be better to work in if some of the
smell is gone.

*I dont want the insurance co to cut me short!! *Does anyone have
actual fire- apartment- smoke - experiance here, With the building
open now, it will be July 2012 before I know if this years work was
enough to combat the smoke damage.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

But if it comes through all openings like switches, sockets, fixtures,
then what you are saying is the wall has to be opened up, so then the
studs can be sealed with primer. its basicly gut everything where
there is smoke inside walls?

Ransley if this is such a concern, and you have that much air movement
inside the walls of your building, open up the bottom 6" to 8" of wall
around the perimeter of every room and firestop every penetration no
matter how small with the intumescent goop around every wire and
pipe...
If no air can move through the walls no odors can move either...

The only concern I would have would be how raunchy things would get
if you had some sort of a leak in one of the smoke damaged units down
the line and you hadn't gutted and encapsulated the non-damaged
non-removable structural elements that have smoke smell in them now...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And the pipes are from 1922. I guess a roof leak might do the same.
This whole problem is overwhelming.

On Apr 2, 3:21*am, Evan wrote:
On Apr 1, 3:27*pm, ransley wrote:





On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:

Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

Define "re-done"...

Gutted to the studs and rebuilt out ?

Refinished floors, painted walls, redid kitchens ?

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just a complete remodel in 07, complete kitchens, baths, some bath
walls, tubs, sand wood floors, new kitchen floors, new dual pane
windows, some new doors, new fixtures.

On Apr 2, 3:41*am, Evan wrote:
On Apr 1, 6:22*pm, ransley wrote:





On Apr 1, 4:48*pm, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley

wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:
Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

What caused the fire? Appliances?

If a faulty appliance caused the fire, well, there are lawyers
chomping at the bit.

Short wiki: "Subrogation in its most common usage refers to
circumstances in which an insurance company tries to recoup expenses
for a claim it paid out when another party should have been
responsible for paying at least a portion of that claim."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

The windows I understand, as the fire department needs to vent
the heat and smoke before they clear the scene to make sure
that the fire is actually put out and won't flashover again after they
leave...

But the doors ? *Did this building not have a knox lockbox for keys ?

Seems like something you would want to look into...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They just used the ax on everything, its more fun I guess. And all the
tenants were home, alarms were blaring, but they busted the front and
rear apartment doors,

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

Sick but very funny. Going into the collection with the hyena on a rope
leash with a African warrior dressed in tartan plaid.

http://www.hemmy.net/images/animals/hyenapet02.jpg

--
Bobby G.

On Apr 2, 9:20*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:41*am, Evan wrote:



On Apr 1, 6:22*pm, ransley wrote:

On Apr 1, 4:48*pm, Oren wrote:

On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 12:27:29 -0700 (PDT), ransley

wrote:
On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:
Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

What caused the fire? Appliances?

If a faulty appliance caused the fire, well, there are lawyers
chomping at the bit.

Short wiki: "Subrogation in its most common usage refers to
circumstances in which an insurance company tries to recoup expenses
for a claim it paid out when another party should have been
responsible for paying at least a portion of that claim."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

The windows I understand, as the fire department needs to vent
the heat and smoke before they clear the scene to make sure
that the fire is actually put out and won't flashover again after they
leave...

But the doors ? *Did this building not have a knox lockbox for keys ?

Seems like something you would want to look into...

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They just used the ax on everything, its more fun I guess. And all the
tenants were home, alarms were blaring, but they busted the front and
rear apartment doors,


Tenants being home means nothing, some doors will lock behind a
person leaving requiring a key to enter... When people are running
for their lives they don't stop to collect their keys...

Fire Departments HATE to use force to gain entry... Think of it this
way -- every door that has to be forced open in non-lifesaving
situation
is a potential for an on-duty accident and disability, that is a large
risk
exposure for routine entry scenarios... They would rather use a set
of
keys reserved for their exclusive use secured on the premises in a
knox system keybox...

It sounds as if your building doesn't have one... You should talk to
the people in the fire prevention office/inspection office with the
Fire Department about installing one... A few hundred dollars now
is worth not having to spend that each time a door must be opened
and you or your tenants aren't at home to unlock a door...

~~ Evan

On Apr 2, 9:17*am, ransley wrote:
On Apr 2, 3:21*am, Evan wrote:



On Apr 1, 3:27*pm, ransley wrote:

On Mar 31, 9:19*am, bob haller wrote:

Document continiously all work done, even though insurance company
will be doing perodic inspections.

Insurance....... hey prove you insulated those walls

Sure heres a before and after photo with signs in photos identifying
locations

With walls open its time to make all upgrades, since you can get more
rent for a modern good looking apartment, and better tenants

*low lives wouldnt want to pay more and go elsewhere

I agree , but all the apartments were redone in 07 to like new, so its
really a pain in the ass this job.

Define "re-done"...

Gutted to the studs and rebuilt out ?

Refinished floors, painted walls, redid kitchens ?

~~ Evan- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just a complete remodel in 07, complete kitchens, baths, some bath
walls, tubs, sand wood floors, new kitchen floors, new dual pane
windows, some new doors, new fixtures.


As much work as you did then it was all surface work except for
the new kitchens, fixtures and windows...

A lot of value added exists inside the walls with plumbing and wiring
and having modern facilities for the tenants to access cable and
internet services...

~~ Evan

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 10:53 pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"

wrote:
"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

I could not open it

The hyena pic (just search Google images for "hyena on a rope") - I just
tried the above link and it works fine. As for the other, try the site
below - a very similar photo

http://laughmaine.com/blog/wp-conten...trolagents.jpg

--
Bobby G.

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 10:04 pm, "Robert Green" wrote:
"ransley" wrote in message

news:d170b4dc-f844-4c33-b149-

stuff snipped

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

Yeow! Is this California? No wait, not at 0 degrees. California is what I
think when I hear the words "gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days. I read some Mexican gang has a nationwide dialup &
deliver heroin franchise and that they solict new customers in the parking
lots of drug rehab clinics. They use beater cars and burner phones and
never carry more than one delivery at a time. Even when they catch them,
they can't make trafficking stick because of the small amounts. Forfeiting
a beater Cheby and a $10 throw-away phone is not much of a penalty. When
they do manage to get themselves jailed, they recruit new members for
their
crew.

Sorry about your loss. You can do everything right and still get nailed.
Who said there's no such that as luck? There's definitely good AND bad
luck! I went through a subzero fire. What the fire didn't burn, the
fireman chopped, drowned and froze. But this was a rowhouse and I
understand the need to keep fires contained quickly, especially on windy
nights, before they spread to other houses. I've known of whole blocks of
rowhouses that went up in flames from a single ignition point. When it was
all over it started snowing. It's an eerie feeling watching moonlit
snowflakes falling into what's left of your living room. )-:

--
Bobby G.

Yes gangs, in Chicago, just a few can ruin a neighborhood, or whole
town or maybe our country. They sure are ruining their home country
Mexico.

Got 'em here in DC. Won't even type their name as they seem to ego surf for
bad publicity. (-: I feel like I know Chicagoland because WGN is one of the
few channels left on my Comcast Basic Cable Screwjob. I've also been
watching the Chicago Code on TV. Pretty entertaining. Lots of scenes
filmed in and around town. Lived in Buffalo for a while, so I know about
lake effect snow, too. There were ropes rigged alongside all the building
pathways at U of B because the wind and snow and ice got so bad in the
winter. I remember pulling myself along to reach an 8AM chem class thinking
"I thought I was going to college, not climbing Mt. Everest with a load of
textbooks!"

We had a great anti-gang task force but that got defunded just in time for
what I predict will be a rise in criminal activity due to the economy. It's
just part of the great boom/bust cycle.

--
Bobby G.

On 4/2/2011 9:11 AM, ransley wrote:
On Apr 1, 10:04 pm, "Robert wrote:
wrote in message

news:d170b4dc-f844-4c33-b149-

stuff snipped

Gang related, a gasolene bomb, and they went for the wrong guy the
cops said. So it spread real fast at 330 am on the coldest night of
the year, near 0. 47 doors and windows the fire dept busted out,

Yeow! Is this California? No wait, not at 0 degrees. California is what I
think when I hear the words "gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days. I read some Mexican gang has a nationwide dialup&
deliver heroin franchise and that they solict new customers in the parking
lots of drug rehab clinics. They use beater cars and burner phones and
never carry more than one delivery at a time. Even when they catch them,
they can't make trafficking stick because of the small amounts. Forfeiting
a beater Cheby and a $10 throw-away phone is not much of a penalty. When
they do manage to get themselves jailed, they recruit new members for their
crew.

Sorry about your loss. You can do everything right and still get nailed.
Who said there's no such that as luck? There's definitely good AND bad
luck! I went through a subzero fire. What the fire didn't burn, the
fireman chopped, drowned and froze. But this was a rowhouse and I
understand the need to keep fires contained quickly, especially on windy
nights, before they spread to other houses. I've known of whole blocks of
rowhouses that went up in flames from a single ignition point. When it was
all over it started snowing. It's an eerie feeling watching moonlit
snowflakes falling into what's left of your living room. )-:

--
Bobby G.

Yes gangs, in Chicago, just a few can ruin a neighborhood, or whole
town or maybe our country. They sure are ruining their home country
Mexico.

I think you'll find most of the younger ones are born here. So they are
your fellow citizens, like it or not. Not many teenagers make the Long Walk.

--
aem sends...

just for sport

A landlord with a aged buildng has K&T, which somehow causes the
fire.

Would the landlord by having K&T be somehow on the hook for possesions
damaged by a electrical fire?-

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 15:49:29 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"ransley" wrote in message
...
On Apr 1, 10:53 pm, Oren wrote:
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"

wrote:
"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

I could not open it

The hyena pic (just search Google images for "hyena on a rope") - I just
tried the above link and it works fine. As for the other, try the site
below - a very similar photo

http://laughmaine.com/blog/wp-conten...trolagents.jpg

LOL. Not just very similar, but another picture of the very same
thing.

On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 01:38:28 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

On Apr 1, 5:37*pm, mm wrote:
On Fri, 01 Apr 2011 07:20:49 -0700, Smitty Two



wrote:
In article ,
mm wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2011 00:21:07 -0700 (PDT), Evan
wrote:

Tenants are responsible for insuring the contents of their units
(their furniture, clothing, small appliances, etc.) which are not
provided by the landlord...

It depends on whose fault the fire was. *I doubt it was the fault of
all the tenants or a group of them. *More likely one of them, or
lightning, or much to the disgrace of this newsgroup, possibly Mr.
ransley.

I'm with Evan here, tenants are responsible for insuring their own
stuff. This is so well-established

It's well established that a tenant should have insurance. *If he
wants to be sure to be reimbursed, but that doesn't mean the landlord
can't be liable. * A tenant needs insurance because *A) The tenant
himself may start the fire, so of course the LL won't pay. *B) The
landlord probably owns the building through a corporation that owns
only this one building, so with a big enough fire, the corporation may
go bankrupt, etc. *C) If a neighbor starts the fire, he may skip or
have no assets.

that short of the landlord being
caught intentionally torching the place I doubt that a tenant or his
insurance company would ever win a suit against anyone else for loss of
personal possessions.

You're way off base. * If the landlord's intentional act OR negligence
causes the fire, the LL has to pay. *

I'm not talking about where a repair is needed in an apartment and the
tenant doesn't notify the ll, or doesn't let him know it's gotten
worse, or doesn't stop using something where using it creates a bigger
risk. *In that case, the tenant may be all or partly liable for the
damage to his apartment and its contents (and the rest of the
building), and the LL will likely rely on his own insurance for
repairs to the building.

But in a suit by a different tenant who also had fire or water damage,
both a negligent tenant and a less negligent landlord can be held
liable, either proprotionally or jointly, depending on the US state
one lives in. * *

But fires start in the hall and common areas, in the landlord, super,
or janitor's apartment, or in the basement, and if it's the LL's
negligence or attributed to him, he owe tenants for their
possesssions, and if they have to move out, may well owe them if their
rent at another location is more than their rent under the lease.

BTW, some tenants have money; some are rich. Most apartment buildings
in NYC are cooperatives now, but I'd be surprised if was every single
one of them was. *Some tenants have enough money to make it worth
suing them, by the LL and by the neighbors. *Of course most of these
people aren't jackasses and don't start fires, but accidents happen.

And come to think iof it, even if it is a co-op or a condo, the co-op
or condo will sue the resident and/or owner who starts a fire, and so
will his injured neighbors. *


Let's address your inept reply:

Let's address your mistaken reply. :-)

A tenant can try to sue someone for such things, but unless they
can obtain really good absolute proof that such and such is
responsible for starting the fire through an intentional act, good

Are you not aware of the concept of negligence? Are you not aware of
the standard of proof necessary in a civil suit, a preponderance of
the evidence. No plaintiff needs absolute proof, let alone "really
good absolute proof".

Someone may have discouraged a suit with these claims, but he was
mistaken or he was bluffing.

Many fire scenes are inspected by fire marshals, so let's consider
those, For any fire where the fire marshall makes out a report and
makes a finding that the cause of the fire was the landlord or another
tenant, that in itself is enough proof for a prima facie case. The
respondent may bring forth evidence that the fire marshall didn't
consider. I don't know and it may vary, if the fire marshall reviews
the maintenance records of the landlord, or if he just says the fire
was caused by the furnace, and leaves it up to others to decide if the
furnace was adequately maintained. But a prima facie case is the one
made out by plaintiffs before a respondent puts on a defense.

luck getting any money -- that is what insurance is for and why
a mature adult would have it...

It's only a part of what insurance is for and why people have it. As
I explained in my previous post and in more detail in my other post
today.

What part of "landlord is not responsible for the tenant's contents"
period are you unable to grasp...

I understand that your saying it doesn't make it true.

The only way to have the landlord
or another tenant be responsible for contents is to have them on
video tape or have WITNESSES who saw them start the fire...

No offense meant, but that's nonsense.

But that would be of little utility when the civil suit comes around

"When the civil suit comes around"! My entire previous post was about
civil liability and suits which follow from that. (Note how many times
I use words like liable (not the word guilty), money, pay, suit, etc.)

as they would already be convicted of arson by then and serving
a 20/25-ish year sentence... Prisoners don't have many assets...

You're jumping to the conclusion that it *was* arson. It's rare that
either a landlord or a tenant commits arson to the building he owns or
lives in. Negligence is a far more likely cause of just about
everything everywhere, from fires to broken bones to car collisions,
than is the intent to harm someone or some thing.

For that matter, your post too started off about civil suits. Your
first words "A tenant can try to sue someone for such things"

A fire could start anywhere, the basement, the roof, a stairwell,
the front entry door -- for the landlord to have any liability you
would
have to prove an intentional act of negligence or malfeasance...

What do you mean by an "intentional act of negligence"?

If someone somehow intends to be negligent, it's worse than simple
negligence.

Not just that the fire originated in an area that was the
responsibility
of the landlord...

Of course it's not enough for it just to have originated there. I
didn't say otherwise**. Are you trying to contradict something I
never said?

**That's why I used the word "negligence". Now ftr the landlord or
his agent could be negligent in one of the tenants' apartments too.
He could come in to repair something and negligently start a fire.
He'd be liable then too, not just for damages to that tenant's
possessions but for any tenant whose possessions were damaged, from
the fire or what the fire department did to put the fire out. But
that situation is very rare and I left it out to keep the previous
post simple.

BTW, in a co-op or condo building -- the "apartments" or "units"
are separately deeded premises and taxed as such to their
individual owners... NOT the same as an apartment building
owned by one entity and rented by another... And the douche
bags who go nuts and sue for such things often end up surprised
that they end up paying part of the settlement to themselves as

They may be stupid and surprised sometimes, but most are not -- it's
the dumb ones who get noticed -- and if, by actions of an employee of
the building, 10 apartments are damaged and 90 aren't, and they win 10
or 100 thousand dollars per damaged apartment in damages and have to
pay 1 or 10 of that themselves, they're still going to want that 10 or
100, and sue if they have to to get it, and even if they have to pay
10% of it themselves.

they are an owner in the co-op and/or condo and every unit gets
special assessed to pay off a special expense... :-O Such things
are paid equally by all owners based on the square footage of
space owned...

Of course. See just above.

Right, but in a co-op or condo, like I stated above the unit occupants
have property rights to a portion of the structure which they own
unlike rental apartment dwellers... Any damage caused to a co-op
or condo common area would be assessed a fee or a fine to repair
and if the party who caused such damage doesn't live up to their
responsibility,

So you think one party can be responsible and forced to pay for damage
to the common area. But iiuc, you think he can't be forced to pay for
damage to someone else's apartment? Then you are the one who will be
surprised.

then either a lien on the deed which would need to
be paid off first from the proceeds of any sale would be attached,
a forcible foreclosure/eviction process begun or a lawsuit to recoup
the damages started depending on the decisions of those in charge...

~~ Evan

BTW, it was my mistake in the previous post to bring up co-ops and
condos. They're really the same as any other apartment building in a
case like this, at least in terms of who will claim against and sue
whom. The only difference is who owns the property or who owns the
common areas, but that won't change who sues.

Also my suggestion that the LL owns the building through a corporation
doesn't help the landlord if he himself was the negligent party. Say
he lives there, or was visiting. He would have opportunities to cause
the fire himself. OTOH, his super or janitor probably works for the
corporation, and their acts can be attributed to the corp. but likely
not the owners of the corp. OT3H, there is a concept called piercing
the corporate veil. Checking a couple links, I can't find evidence
this has been applied to this kind of negligence case, but IANAL, and
if I had substantial losses that my insurance didn't cover, I'd look
into it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piercin...corporate_veil

I'd talk to a lawyer in my own state.

None of this helps or even relates to ransley of course. Sorry, guy.

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 2 Apr 2011 09:28:31 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

Sick but very funny. Going into the collection with the hyena on a rope
leash with a African warrior dressed in tartan plaid.

http://www.hemmy.net/images/animals/hyenapet02.jpg

I would hire that guy. A walkin' boss with a big stick. I bet the
ammo duct tape / home made muzzle, six links of chain can tame the
beast.

The guy has a handle on the 'sitchiation'. Look. He still has a
chicken ready for harvest.

I first saw it listed as an "African Pit Bull" on some animal site along
with a flyer from a telephone pole that said "Found - unfriendly cat, no
collar, bad teeth" with a picture of a possum.

--
Bobby G.


--
Bobby G.

On 4/2/2011 8:28 AM, Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Fri, 1 Apr 2011 23:04:40 -0400, "Robert Green"
wrote:

"gang related" although I realize gangs are
everywhere these days.

http://i749.photobucket.com/albums/xx134/artuis/inmigrants.jpg

Sick but very funny. Going into the collection with the hyena on a rope
leash with a African warrior dressed in tartan plaid.

http://www.hemmy.net/images/animals/hyenapet02.jpg

--
Bobby G.



There's a group of images of that guy and several others with all sorts
of "guard critters". I'll try to recall where they are posted. ^_^

TDD

Legally anyone can sue anyone for anything.

Frequentky suing someone even if the suit has no merit will get you a
offer to settle. Because lawyers can be very expensive.

With some iots worth paying just to be rid of it........

Now take a building with electrical problems the building is old and
the K&T is overloaded detoriating and the landlord ignores the issue.
Say he was informed of bad wiring by a electrician.

Theres a fire apartments are damaged, tenants possesions destroyed.

I wouldnt blame the tenant for suing and hope they win.

Since the landlord was neglient, and probably put lives at risk.

On Apr 2, 4:38*pm, bob haller wrote:
just for sport

A landlord with a aged buildng has K&T, which somehow causes the
fire.

Would the landlord by having K&T be somehow on the hook for possesions
damaged by a electrical fire?-

There are codes which must be maintained for rental buildings, you get
inspections every few years so K T in a rental in my area is unlikely.
Here the inspectors tag you if they see peeling paint, a rusted gutter
or anything.