[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours.

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

On 10/13/2010 1:12 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours.

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)


Epoxies can comprise a wide variety of materials running from liquids
like you describe which can be cured rapidly (or slowly) to solids
requiring long, high temperature cure.

In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

snipped

Glad your foray went well. I like West. Among other things, I use it to
pot guitar pickups into their injection molded plastic covers. I premix
some black pigment into the resin before adding hardener. I mix up about
3 pints at a time in a 2 quart plastic pitcher with a pour spout. Use a
cordless drill to drive a plastic impeller to mix it, but avoid
cavitation to keep the bubbles out of it.

One thing I don't like is the pumps. Can't always tell whether they're
primed, and if they aren't, you don't get an accurate measure. Also, if
you need less than a full stroke's worth, you either waste a bunch or
you guess at a half stroke. And, the pumps end up getting messy.
Instead, I go by weight, using a digital scale with a resolution of 0.01
lbs.

On Oct 13, 1:12*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours..

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Save yourself some money next time and try uscomposites. West System
is just a high priced label. None of the companies actually
manufacture the raw components. Big chemical companies like dupont
make it. West, etc just resell. And West is sort of like Bose,
you're paying for the label as well as the product.

In article
,
jamesgangnc wrote:

West is sort of like Bose,
you're paying for the label as well as the product.

But you need the label. Without it, you might mistake it for ketchup or
something.

Frank wrote in
:

On 10/13/2010 1:12 AM, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door with
marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long post,
be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman
door whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is
a big (42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at
one time very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan
was to try to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial
repair a couple years ago where I reglued just the top layer of
veneer, I determined that this was beyond my capabilities and started
asking around at local shops. To make a long story short, the answers
I got were either "can't do it" (would have to replace all the glass
with safety glass to bring it up to code, etc.), or the job was
prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and
make it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman
design, just lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half
of the old plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned
up the surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech).
Also pieced in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places
where only the top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This
left lots of discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used
wasn't exactly the same thickness (and in some cases had been glued
over the bottom layer of old veneer which was still well bonded). So
I filled these in by gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a
wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their
slow-setting 206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the
local West Marine. (Turns out West System is from a different
company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd
expected. (I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens,
catalyzes, gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can
cause heart arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick
varnish. Soaked into the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought
it would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says
10-15 hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden
up while I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the
right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought.
I got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid,
when I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very*
warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy
generates heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a
very short life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and
foam, burn your skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up.
It all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I
just mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the
time I was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big
solid lump in the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past
sunset with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a
couple hours.

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the
pumps they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the
same number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect
mix. No measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this
system too.)

different systems use different ratios. I use small 1 oz.measuring cups,you
can buy them at hobby stores or at Wal-Mart in the Pharmacy section.
They are marked in fractions of an oz,drams,and mL.
you also can use the oral syringes for measuring small amounts.
use separate syringes for resin and hardener,and mark them clearly.



Epoxies can comprise a wide variety of materials running from liquids
like you describe which can be cured rapidly (or slowly) to solids
requiring long, high temperature cure.


Here's a tip;
go to System Three's website,and download their Epoxy Book. It's free.
It's got a lot of good info about epoxies and their use.
They also have a Trial Kit that is a good deal.

IIRC,it's www.systemthree.com

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Smitty Two wrote in
news
In article ,
David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door with
marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long post,
be warned.

snipped

Glad your foray went well. I like West. Among other things, I use it
to pot guitar pickups into their injection molded plastic covers. I
premix some black pigment into the resin before adding hardener. I mix
up about 3 pints at a time in a 2 quart plastic pitcher with a pour
spout. Use a cordless drill to drive a plastic impeller to mix it, but
avoid cavitation to keep the bubbles out of it.

one trick is to mix in a tray instead of a cup or bowl.
the wider,shallow tray keeps the epoxy mass from heating up too fast.

One thing I don't like is the pumps. Can't always tell whether they're
primed, and if they aren't, you don't get an accurate measure. Also,
if you need less than a full stroke's worth, you either waste a bunch
or you guess at a half stroke. And, the pumps end up getting messy.
Instead, I go by weight, using a digital scale with a resolution of
0.01 lbs.


West,System Three and RAKA are good,boat-building type epoxies.
I use RAKA because they had the best price for the 1.5qt "kit".
I use West fillers(fumed silica,microballoons,wood flour,chopped plastic
fiber,chopped glass fiber) because they are available at a local boating
supply store.(along with glass cloth)


you can get measuring cups at HD or Lowes,in the paint section. for small
jobs,Wal-Mart Pharmacy or hobby shops,1 oz cups,marked in
fractions,mL,drams,Tblsp.
or use oral syringes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Oct 13, 10:11*am, Jim Yanik wrote:
Smitty Two wrote innews




In article ,
*David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door with
marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long post,
be warned.

snipped

Glad your foray went well. I like West. Among other things, I use it
to pot guitar pickups into their injection molded plastic covers. I
premix some black pigment into the resin before adding hardener. I mix
up about 3 pints at a time in a 2 quart plastic pitcher with a pour
spout. Use a cordless drill to drive a plastic impeller to mix it, but
avoid cavitation to keep the bubbles out of it.

one trick is to mix in a tray instead of a cup or bowl.
the wider,shallow tray keeps the epoxy mass from heating up too fast.



One thing I don't like is the pumps. Can't always tell whether they're
primed, and if they aren't, you don't get an accurate measure. Also,
if you need less than a full stroke's worth, you either waste a bunch
or you guess at a half stroke. And, the pumps end up getting messy.
Instead, I go by weight, using a digital scale with a resolution of
0.01 lbs.

West,System Three and RAKA are good,boat-building type epoxies.
I use RAKA because they had the best price for the 1.5qt "kit".
I use West fillers(fumed silica,microballoons,wood flour,chopped plastic
fiber,chopped glass fiber) because they are available at a local boating
supply store.(along with glass cloth)

you can get measuring cups at HD or Lowes,in the paint section. for small
jobs,Wal-Mart Pharmacy or hobby shops,1 oz cups,marked in
fractions,mL,drams,Tblsp.
or use oral syringes.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

6 quart 2:1 kit at raka = $93. Same 6 quarts of 2:1 at uscomposites
$69. Clostest west pirce is around $140. Like I said before none of
them actually manufacture the stuff. They are all packagers.

On Oct 13, 12:12*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours..

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Is it UV resistant and stable so it wont degrade in a few years, I
dont think so, I dont believe its meant as a top coat.

On Oct 13, 8:33*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

snipped

Glad your foray went well. I like West. Among other things, I use it to
pot guitar pickups into their injection molded plastic covers. I premix
some black pigment into the resin before adding hardener. I mix up about
3 pints at a time in a 2 quart plastic pitcher with a pour spout. Use a
cordless drill to drive a plastic impeller to mix it, but avoid
cavitation to keep the bubbles out of it.

One thing I don't like is the pumps. Can't always tell whether they're
primed, and if they aren't, you don't get an accurate measure. Also, if
you need less than a full stroke's worth, you either waste a bunch or
you guess at a half stroke. And, the pumps end up getting messy.
Instead, I go by weight, using a digital scale with a resolution of 0.01
lbs.

"One thing I don't like is the pumps. Can't always tell whether
they're primed..."

I won't disagree with the use of a scale, but as far as priming the
pumps...

I prime the pumps into separate cups and once I'm satisfied that they
are primed, I set the "priming cups" aside and mix the ingredients in
the tray/cup from which I'll use the epoxy.

Once I'm done with the epoxy for the day/session, I pour the stuff
from the "priming cups" back into their respective cans.

Everything else you've said about half-strokes and the mess is
absolutely true. I really should get a scale. ;-)

On Oct 13, 1:12*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours..

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

"The cup got very hot"

It's kind of fun to watch a cup melt and deform as the stuff heats up.
BTDT

"another anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?"

The real dilemma is: Can I mix just enough to get it all used up
before it gets unworkable, so there is no waste? That's an art.

A fun tip:

If you need to keep epoxy from sticking to something, coat the
something with vaseline.

I've made molds by coating objects with vaseline, wrapping it with
epoxy/fiberglass and then sliding the object out.

I've made tunnels through thick masses of epoxy/fiberglass by coating
dowels with vaseline and then pulling them out once it's cured. You
get a nice neat tunnel with no drilling required.

I drilled 3/4" holes halfway through a board, dropped nuts into the
holes and inserted vaseline coated bolts through the top of the board
to hold the nut in place. I then poured epoxy around the nut to seal
it into the board, sanded it and painted it. The nuts were permanently
embedded (and hidden) in the wood and I could bolt and unbolt objects
as I needed.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 07:34:42 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Oct 13, 12:12Â*am, David Nebenzahl wrote:
[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never used
liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my door-restoration
project where I sealed the outside of the door with marine epoxy. My
experiences with this substance follow. Long post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman door
whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door is a big
(42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and was at one time
very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The original plan was to try
to restore the veneer on the face. After doing a partial repair a couple
years ago where I reglued just the top layer of veneer, I determined
that this was beyond my capabilities and started asking around at local
shops. To make a long story short, the answers I got were either "can't
do it" (would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring
it up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and make
it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman design, just
lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about half of the old
plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door), cleaned up the
surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood (HydroTech). Also pieced
in some of the old oak veneer I had left over in places where only the
top layer had let go, leaving a solid substrate. This left lots of
discontinuities and gaps, since the plywood I used wasn't exactly the
same thickness (and in some cases had been glued over the bottom layer
of old veneer which was still well bonded). So I filled these in by
gooping on lots of PC-Woody (basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Today I arrived to smooth down the surface and seal it. Sanded it
smooth, mixed up the epoxy and went to town. First time I'd ever used
this stuff; I ended up getting West System 105, and their slow-setting
206 hardener, on the suggestion of the people at the local West Marine.
(Turns out West System is from a different company.)

It went on easily, and was much less nerve-wracking than I'd expected.
(I always get anxious around *anything* that sets, hardens, catalyzes,
gels, or otherwise changes state. A tube of caulk can cause heart
arrhythmia.) It basically went on like fairly thick varnish. Soaked into
the wood surfaces nicely.

I chose the slow hardener because I knew it would be hot this week.
Today it was close to 90° in Berkeley where I was working. I thought it
would be better to risk a long set time (the back of the can says 10-15
hours for "cure to solid") than to risk having the stuff harden up while
I was still trying to brush it on. Turns out I made the right choice.

I mixed up what I thought would be enough plus a little more (another
anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?). Better to err on
the side of wasting some rather than running out before covering the
surface, thinks I. About half-filled the plastic mixing cup I bought. I
got it all on in about 10-12 minutes, with the epoxy still liquid, when
I noticed that the bottom of the cup was getting warm. *Very* warm.

Now they warn you that the stuff is exothermic: "Curing epoxy generates
heat. When contained, a large mass of curing epoxy has a very short
life, and can generate enough heat to melt plastic and foam, burn your
skin and ignite combustible materials".

It's just very strange that this reaction happened well after I mixed
the batch, and after I'd used most of it. The cup got very hot, and I
noticed the material was actually smoking a little, and gelling up. It
all happened very quickly. Fortunately, I was just about done; I just
mixed up a smaller batch in another cup and finished up. By the time I
was finished brushing on the second batch, there as a big solid lump in
the first cup.

So apparently this stuff behaves differently from most other setting
materials: the more stuff there is (large mixed batch or thick coat),
the faster it sets up. In my case, it was just about perfect. I was
worried that I'd have to hang out at my friend's house way past sunset
with a sticky front door; it set hard to the touch in just a couple hours.

The West System stuff is pretty cool, if expensive; I bought the pumps
they sell which are made to go into their cans. Just pump the same
number of strokes of resin and hardener, and you get a perfect mix. No
measuring. (I'm guessing that other brands must use this system too.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

Is it UV resistant and stable so it wont degrade in a few years, I
dont think so, I dont believe its meant as a top coat.
For marine use it IS a topcoat., but often still overcoated with
marine spar varnish. (for extra UV protection)

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT), ransley
wrote:

On Oct 13, 12:14Â*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/13/2010 7:34 AM ransley spake thus:





On Oct 13, 12:12 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never
used liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door
with marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long
post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman
door whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door
is a big (42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and
was at one time very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The
original plan was to try to restore the veneer on the face. After
doing a partial repair a couple years ago where I reglued just the
top layer of veneer, I determined that this was beyond my
capabilities and started asking around at local shops. To make a
long story short, the answers I got were either "can't do it"
(would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring it
up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and
make it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman
design, just lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about
half of the old plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door),
cleaned up the surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood
(HydroTech). Also pieced in some of the old oak veneer I had left
over in places where only the top layer had let go, leaving a solid
substrate. This left lots of discontinuities and gaps, since the
plywood I used wasn't exactly the same thickness (and in some cases
had been glued over the bottom layer of old veneer which was still
well bonded). So I filled these in by gooping on lots of PC-Woody
(basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Is it UV resistant and stable so it wont degrade in a few years, I
dont think so, I dont believe its meant as a top coat.

Don't worry your pretty little head about that, Mr. Can't Be Bothered to
Use Apostrophes. It's not being used as a topcoat: I'm going to prime
and paint over it, so UV resistance isn't an issue. (Besides, epoxy is
more UV resistant than most varnishes.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bondo would have been quicker, easier, cheaper. Yes it hold up on
doors.
Bondo is Polyester based and is hygroscopic. (it attracts and holds
moisture). If not properly sealed it will pop if the moisture gets in
and freezes. I've used bondo on wood - won't use it again.

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:


It's kind of fun to watch a cup melt and deform as the stuff heats up.
BTDT

"another anxiety-producing dilemma: too much or not enough?"

The real dilemma is: Can I mix just enough to get it all used up
before it gets unworkable, so there is no waste? That's an art.

A fun tip:

If you need to keep epoxy from sticking to something, coat the
something with vaseline.

Paste wax works every bit as well, and it won't "pollute" the epoxy.
Vaseline can retard or weaken the resin - not positive about epoxy -
but definitely not good with Polyester.

I've made molds by coating objects with vaseline, wrapping it with
epoxy/fiberglass and then sliding the object out.

I've made tunnels through thick masses of epoxy/fiberglass by coating
dowels with vaseline and then pulling them out once it's cured. You
get a nice neat tunnel with no drilling required.

I drilled 3/4" holes halfway through a board, dropped nuts into the
holes and inserted vaseline coated bolts through the top of the board
to hold the nut in place. I then poured epoxy around the nut to seal
it into the board, sanded it and painted it. The nuts were permanently
embedded (and hidden) in the wood and I could bolt and unbolt objects
as I needed.

On Oct 13, 4:41*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Oct 13, 12:14*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/13/2010 7:34 AM ransley spake thus:

On Oct 13, 12:12 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never
used liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door
with marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long
post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman
door whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door
is a big (42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and
was at one time very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The
original plan was to try to restore the veneer on the face. After
doing a partial repair a couple years ago where I reglued just the
top layer of veneer, I determined that this was beyond my
capabilities and started asking around at local shops. To make a
long story short, the answers I got were either "can't do it"
(would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring it
up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and
make it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman
design, just lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about
half of the old plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door),
cleaned up the surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood
(HydroTech). Also pieced in some of the old oak veneer I had left
over in places where only the top layer had let go, leaving a solid
substrate. This left lots of discontinuities and gaps, since the
plywood I used wasn't exactly the same thickness (and in some cases
had been glued over the bottom layer of old veneer which was still
well bonded). So I filled these in by gooping on lots of PC-Woody
(basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Is it UV resistant and stable so it wont degrade in a few years, I
dont think so, I dont believe its meant as a top coat.

Don't worry your pretty little head about that, Mr. Can't Be Bothered to
Use Apostrophes. It's not being used as a topcoat: I'm going to prime
and paint over it, so UV resistance isn't an issue. (Besides, epoxy is
more UV resistant than most varnishes.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bondo would have been quicker, easier, cheaper. Yes it hold up on
doors.

*Bondo is Polyester based and is hygroscopic. (it attracts and holds
moisture). If not properly sealed it will pop if the moisture gets in
and freezes. I've used bondo on wood - won't use it again.

so much this. I don't even like Bondo on cars, unless it is used
exactly according to directions (most people don't read 'em) - only as
a skim coat over top of good solid metal. If there are any holes in
the panel from a dent puller etc. or rust repair, they should either
be welded shut w/ a copper backing or else backside of panel must be
painted w/ good pref. epoxy paint after bondo sets up and then pref.
undercoated over top of that. Any other approach is doomed to
failure. DOOOOOOOOOOMED.

I believe the main reason that it is hygroscopic is not that it is
polyester based but that the filler is mainly talc.

nate

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 14:10:28 -0700 (PDT), N8N
wrote:

On Oct 13, 4:41Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 11:44:27 -0700 (PDT), ransley





wrote:
On Oct 13, 12:14Â*pm, David Nebenzahl wrote:
On 10/13/2010 7:34 AM ransley spake thus:

On Oct 13, 12:12 am, David Nebenzahl wrote:

[Well, not new, just new to me]

Now we've all used epoxy sometime in our lives. at least to glue
something back together. I've done that many times, but I never
used liquid epoxy until today, when I came to the part of my
door-restoration project where I sealed the outside of the door
with marine epoxy. My experiences with this substance follow. Long
post, be warned.

Just for background, the project is re-facing a beautiful Craftsman
door whose plywood skin had started to delaminate badly. The door
is a big (42") door with nine beveled lites of various sizes, and
was at one time very nicely covered in oak-veneer plywood. The
original plan was to try to restore the veneer on the face. After
doing a partial repair a couple years ago where I reglued just the
top layer of veneer, I determined that this was beyond my
capabilities and started asking around at local shops. To make a
long story short, the answers I got were either "can't do it"
(would have to replace all the glass with safety glass to bring it
up to code, etc.), or the job was prohibitively expen$ive.

So we decided I'd just reface the door, restore the top surface and
make it smooth and level, and paint it. Keep the old Craftsman
design, just lose the natural wood facing. So I peeled off about
half of the old plywood (mainly from the bottom half of the door),
cleaned up the surface, and glued on new 1/4" marine plywood
(HydroTech). Also pieced in some of the old oak veneer I had left
over in places where only the top layer had let go, leaving a solid
substrate. This left lots of discontinuities and gaps, since the
plywood I used wasn't exactly the same thickness (and in some cases
had been glued over the bottom layer of old veneer which was still
well bonded). So I filled these in by gooping on lots of PC-Woody
(basically a wood-epoxy paste).

Is it UV resistant and stable so it wont degrade in a few years, I
dont think so, I dont believe its meant as a top coat.

Don't worry your pretty little head about that, Mr. Can't Be Bothered to
Use Apostrophes. It's not being used as a topcoat: I'm going to prime
and paint over it, so UV resistance isn't an issue. (Besides, epoxy is
more UV resistant than most varnishes.)

--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)-Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Bondo would have been quicker, easier, cheaper. Yes it hold up on
doors.

Â*Bondo is Polyester based and is hygroscopic. (it attracts and holds
moisture). If not properly sealed it will pop if the moisture gets in
and freezes. I've used bondo on wood - won't use it again.

so much this. I don't even like Bondo on cars, unless it is used
exactly according to directions (most people don't read 'em) - only as
a skim coat over top of good solid metal. If there are any holes in
the panel from a dent puller etc. or rust repair, they should either
be welded shut w/ a copper backing or else backside of panel must be
painted w/ good pref. epoxy paint after bondo sets up and then pref.
undercoated over top of that. Any other approach is doomed to
failure. DOOOOOOOOOOMED.

I believe the main reason that it is hygroscopic is not that it is
polyester based but that the filler is mainly talc.

nate
No, it is the polyester resin - even in fiberglass boat construction,
fiberglass bonded with polyester resin absorbs water - while most
epoxy bonded fiberglass does not.

Nylon also absorbs water. Polyethelene does not.

On 10/13/2010 1:44 PM spake thus:

On Wed, 13 Oct 2010 12:37:04 -0700 (PDT), DerbyDad03
wrote:

A fun tip:

If you need to keep epoxy from sticking to something, coat the
something with vaseline.

Paste wax works every bit as well, and it won't "pollute" the epoxy.
Vaseline can retard or weaken the resin - not positive about epoxy -
but definitely not good with Polyester.

This actually came into play as well; as I had to reattach the door
hardware so my friend could actually use it, I was worried about the
handle sticking to the epoxy (even though it seemed solid, I wasn't
positive it was completely cured), so I attached it with pieces of waxed
paper between it and the door.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)