I need to carpet my house. I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Thanks, mike

On Aug 12, 9:58*am, mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Thanks, mike

Have you considered carpet tiles? They come in a range of qualities
and you can lay them yourself. No heavy lifting, you are only cutting
small tiles. If you make a cockup it's not a problem, set it on one
side to use elsewhere in the room. (Cut the biggest tiles first.)
You can move them round the room when wear shows (put the worn ones
under furniture etc) Plus get a few spares too at the time of
purchase.
I have used them for years. No problems.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 01:58:08 -0700, mike wrote:

I need to carpet my house. I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.

Just to add to your problems, a friend tells me that some companies
will estimate the yardage quite a bit differently than others, so
they'll give you a lower per yard price, but then charge you for more
yards. She was talking about advertising, however, on tv or in the
paper where there is no floorplan. If they're going to install it, I
gather they should give you a firm total price.

I've never bought carpet myself, but if I ever straighten up here, I
may have to.

I bought my house from the original owner after he had it four years.
There were no carpet scraps or kitchen linoleum scraps. He told me
that was a problem for him too, when he spilled paint in the middle of
the room he had nothing to patch it with. He told me he had to cut
something out a closet, but strangely, I've been in all 4 carpeted
closets and none were missing carpet. He must have cleaned the piece
with paint and put it back where he cut out the patch material.

Anyhow, but he did leave me all the receipts. I went there and bought
a fairly big piece of vinyl linoleum, which I never needed until it
wasn't big enough. But they didn't have the carpet anymore.

I asked them why they didn't leave the scraps, some of which would
have been big** and the manager insisted to me that if they left
scraps, the wives called up and complained. My mother was a wife and
she was never that stupid. she's the one who told me to keep scraps.


**Well, maybe not in the kitchen which is esactly 12x12, but he should
have bought an extra 3 or 6 x 12 piece. The guy who sold me the
kitchen chairs with wheels didn't tell me they would ruin the
linoleum. Ugh.

I don't mind paying more for better product. I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Thanks, mike

On Aug 12, 4:58*am, mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Thanks, mike

Years since I worked in textile fibers R&D and choosing carpet is even
hard for me.
I would look for nylon with fibers designed for carpet, antistain
coating and built in antistat.
I'd look for high basis weight and choose a color that would not show
dirt, Good underlay is also important.

If you got away with a shag carpet lasting 38 years, it is not a high
traffic area as shag is not known for longevity.

mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the
most bang for the buck.


In my view, good carpet is that which you don't have in your house.

Oh, I'm sure there's a place for it, but, for me, tile and laminate are so
much better.
* Cheaper
* Easier to clean
* Invulnerable to stains
* Longer lasting
* Do not harbor nasties like odors, dust mites, particles of unknown or
unspeakable origin
* Won't rip or tear, wrinkle, or snag something
* Easier to change motif by the revision of throw rugs

On Aug 12, 7:32*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the
most bang for the buck.

In my view, good carpet is that which you don't have in your house.

Oh, I'm sure there's a place for it, but, for me, tile and laminate are so
much better.
* Cheaper
* Easier to clean
* Invulnerable to stains
* Longer lasting
* Do not harbor nasties like odors, dust mites, particles of unknown or
unspeakable origin
* Won't rip or tear, wrinkle, or snag something
* Easier to change motif by the revision of throw rugs

You should have prefaced your comments with 'OT'.

R

On Aug 12, 4:58*am, mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

There are carpet rating systems, but even they can be misleading.
These three should bring you up to speed.
http://www.carpetguru.com/shop200.htm#
http://www.carpet-rug.org/residentia...nce-rating.cfm
http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/h...view/index.htm

R

On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:
I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. $3K is on the low side. There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. $3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I found that laminate or better, IMO, bamboo was actually cheaper.
You can likely move up to hardwood and come very close to the $70/yd
installed price.

"HeyBub" wrote:
-snip-

In my view, good carpet is that which you don't have in your house.

Damn-- this is the third time in a couple weeks that you & I agree.g
[actually I think we agree on most of the on topic stuff- but you post
so little of that lately]

Oh, I'm sure there's a place for it, but, for me, tile and laminate are so
much better.
* Cheaper
* Easier to clean
* Invulnerable to stains
* Longer lasting
* Do not harbor nasties like odors, dust mites, particles of unknown or
unspeakable origin
* Won't rip or tear, wrinkle, or snag something
* Easier to change motif by the revision of throw rugs


What he said.

Jim

On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:



I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. They're all around 10%.

R

On Aug 12, 8:05*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:



On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:

I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. *They're all around 10%.

Direction. If you have an 'L' shaped room you can't just run the
carpet the direction of the leg, you're going to buy the whole square.

On Aug 12, 11:11*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:05*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:


One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. *They're all around 10%.

Direction. *If you have an 'L' shaped room you can't just run the
carpet the direction of the leg, you're going to buy the whole square.

Believe it or not, it's possible to have these things called 'seams'
in wall to wall carpet. They're not all that hard to do, and a good
carpet guy can make them disappear. That cuts way down on the waste.
Like I said, and those links backup, typical wastage allowance for
carpet is around 10%.

R

On Aug 12, 10:17*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:11*am, keith wrote:



On Aug 12, 8:05*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. *They're all around 10%.

Direction. *If you have an 'L' shaped room you can't just run the
carpet the direction of the leg, you're going to buy the whole square.

Believe it or not, it's possible to have these things called 'seams'
in wall to wall carpet. *They're not all that hard to do, and a good
carpet guy can make them disappear. *That cuts way down on the waste.
Like I said, and those links backup, typical wastage allowance for
carpet is around 10%.

Are you intentionally being an ass today, or did you just get up on
the wrong side. Of course there are seams but you will *SEE* them if
the direction of the nap changes. It'll look like hell. Suit
yourself, though.

If the whole house is done, they can often just put a seam in the
middle and keep the direction on each half the same, saving a lot. The
direction cannot be changed, though. yes 30% or 50% loss is possible,
depending on the layout.

On Aug 12, 11:31*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:17*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:11*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:05*am, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. *They're all around 10%.

Direction. *If you have an 'L' shaped room you can't just run the
carpet the direction of the leg, you're going to buy the whole square..

Believe it or not, it's possible to have these things called 'seams'
in wall to wall carpet. *They're not all that hard to do, and a good
carpet guy can make them disappear. *That cuts way down on the waste.
Like I said, and those links backup, typical wastage allowance for
carpet is around 10%.

Are you intentionally being an ass today, or did you just get up on
the wrong side. *Of course there are seams but you will *SEE* them if
the direction of the nap changes. *It'll look like hell. *Suit
yourself, though.

The direction of the nap does not change unless you are turning the
carpet around. You do know that they print arrows on the carpet
backing so there's no confusion about the nap, right? Even someone
who has never installed carpet before would notice it immediately, so
I'm really not sure what you are thinking. As far as being an ass,
well, opinions vary, but you're simply giving bad information and I'm
just pointing that out. Don't take it personally.

If the whole house is done, they can often just put a seam in the
middle and keep the direction on each half the same, saving a lot. The
direction cannot be changed, though. *yes 30% or 50% loss is possible,
depending on the layout.

It's possible to have 100% wastage if it's installed in the wrong
house, if the wrong carpet is ordered, if the installer is a moron, or
the guy selling you the carpet is taking total advantage of your noob-
ness.

I provided scores of links that show carpet wastage to typically be
between 5% and 15%...which is roughly...errr....10%. Show me just one
link that agrees with your grossly inflated wastage allowance and I'll
apologize. Deal?

R

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:39:41 -0400, mm
wrote:

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 01:58:08 -0700, mike wrote:

I need to carpet my house. I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.

Just to add to your problems, a friend tells me that some companies
will estimate the yardage quite a bit differently than others, so
they'll give you a lower per yard price, but then charge you for more
yards. She was talking about advertising, however, on tv or in the
paper where there is no floorplan. If they're going to install it, I
gather they should give you a firm total price.


I think I could have been more clear. So even though the total might
be the same, one might be selling you cheaper carpet with an
overestimate of how much you need, the ohter selling better carpet
with an accurate calculation of waht you need. If the prices are the
saem. But if one is charging less, it might still be overestimating
what you need and selling even cheepare carpet yet. So you need to
compare price per year and number of yards, in addition I suppose to
trying to compare quality of carpet at one store vs. other stores.
I'm going to lie down.

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:



I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

So it seems like what one should do is measure the yardage needed for
the actual floor, not counting waste, and then he'll have a decent
idea of how much is absolutely needed, and then add to that how much
be used to because of necessary waste. Dont' forget the halls, the
inside of closets, etc.

Even if all the vendors are honest and competent except one, it would
be worth measureing on one's own for the sake of that one.

If one does want to sell more yards, he might be able to explain while
more is needed.

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&q=estim...aste+allowance
You don't even have to click on any links - just scan the hits for
numbers. They're all around 10%.

R

On Aug 12, 2:15*pm, mm wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:

I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

So it seems like what one should do is measure the yardage needed for
the actual floor, not counting waste, and then he'll have a decent
idea of how much is absolutely needed, and then add to that how much
be used to because of necessary waste. * Dont' forget the halls, the
inside of closets, etc.

Even if all the vendors are honest and competent except one, it would
be worth measureing on one's own for the sake of that one.

If one does want to sell more yards, he might be able to explain while
more is needed.

I measure for my own information, yes, but I make sure to tell the
contractor guy that he's responsible for his own measurements and for
allowing for wastage.

A carpet guy told me a story about what he did when measuring. Owners
would ask him for the measurements, then go to somebody else who, of
course, could do it for $100 less when the dimensions were faxed to
him, or the owner bought the carpet online and just hired a
moonlighting carpet guy. So this carpet guy starting taking a foot
off of each measurement. He'd know the right dimensions, simple
addition and easy to remember the offset, so it didn't affect him at
all, but the homeowner who was trying to use the carpet guy as a free
measuring service would order the carpet and get a big surprise! I
thought that was pretty funny.

R

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 11:31:29 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Aug 12, 2:15*pm, mm wrote:
On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 06:05:20 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 8:57*am, keith wrote:
On Aug 12, 3:58*am, mike wrote:

I need to carpet my house. *I went to a few stores
today and talked with the sales guys.
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.
One guy emphasized the stain repellent.
Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.
One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Quotes ranged from $3k to $7K installed for about 100 square yards
of relatively ordinary carpet.
I don't mind paying more for better product. *I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?
My original shag made it 38 years. *I'll be dead in another 25.
Don't necessarily want the cheapest crap.
Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

One test I've done is to "pet" the carpet, trying to get it to
"shed". *Some stores will brush their samples so they won't shed, so
if you can try it on a roll. *All carpet will shed some when new but
some is really bad. *$3K is on the low side. *There is a *lot* of
waste in carpeting, perhaps 30% or even 50%. *$3K may be $20/yd
carpeting which is pretty low-end.

I'm not sure what carpet would have a match requiring that much waste,
and if the installer has that much waste he's doing something very
wrong - like gouging the crap out of the homeowner. *Usually the waste
allowance is 10% unless there are odd layouts and restrictions.

So it seems like what one should do is measure the yardage needed for
the actual floor, not counting waste, and then he'll have a decent
idea of how much is absolutely needed, and then add to that how much
be used to because of necessary waste. * Dont' forget the halls, the
inside of closets, etc.

Even if all the vendors are honest and competent except one, it would
be worth measureing on one's own for the sake of that one.

If one does want to sell more yards, he might be able to explain while
more is needed.

I measure for my own information, yes, but I make sure to tell the
contractor guy that he's responsible for his own measurements and for
allowing for wastage.

Definitely. I didn't mean otherwise and thank you for making sure no
one got the other impression. Giving the carpet guy your own
measurements is something taking your car in and telling the guy what
to replace, instead of telling him what the problem is and asking him
to fix it. In the first case, if he replaces the part you don't like
and the car works no better, it's not the mechanic's responsiblity.

And I read a car list where people jump to all kinds of conclusinos
what is wrong with their car. One guy said his cars thermostat rose
when he was stopped with his foot on the brake at a red light, and he
thought the temp. sensor needed replacing. (It's not an expensive
part, but let's forget aobut that.)

I asked him, How would the car know you were stopped at a red light in
order to cause the sensor to show a higher temp? Isn't it more likely
the car IS hotter when it's not moving forward?

That didn't affect him and he still went off to replace the sensor.

A carpet guy told me a story about what he did when measuring. Owners
would ask him for the measurements, then go to somebody else who, of
course, could do it for $100 less when the dimensions were faxed to
him, or the owner bought the carpet online and just hired a
moonlighting carpet guy. So this carpet guy starting taking a foot
off of each measurement. He'd know the right dimensions, simple
addition and easy to remember the offset, so it didn't affect him at
all, but the homeowner who was trying to use the carpet guy as a free
measuring service would order the carpet and get a big surprise! I
thought that was pretty funny.

R

I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different time
in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and valid.
Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also be
appreciated.

Nonny

Primer for Buying Carpet

Following the flooding and wind/rain damage from hurricane Fran, many folks
in our area are in the market for some new carpet. While most carpet stores
and sales people are reputable, there are some out there who are still using
some of the oldest carpet sales tricks in the book. I think that it might
be appropriate to share a few of these tricks and some advice with you, in
the hope that you can avoid being nicked or disappointed. I won't delve
deeply into the differences in quality or types of carpet, but will stick
to sales techniques and tricks of the trade. Here's some carpet overview,
however.

I'll keep away from cut pile, loop, saxony, berber and other TYPES of
carpet, and will also stay away from yarns. Most synthetic yarns today are
just fine, and the stain resistance is placed on the fibers before assembly,
rather than being sprayed on after the carpet is made. When you buy carpet,
you're actually buying a backing, subbacking, and face. The subbacking
comes in premium (jute) or standard (synthetic) grades, with the standard
being most typical. Since most carpets get worn and stained before the
backing fails or separates from the face, the standard grade of backing is
usually just fine. The premium grade is a bit stiffer, my hold up better to
restretching later, and decreases the likelihood of wrinkles. Good
installation usually prevents that anyway. For most homes, I recommend
spending more on the face and worrying less about the modern backings.
"Lifetime Warranty on Labor" is virtually meaningless, since carpet stores
come and go AND the installer's seams seldom fail. If they do, or if carpet
needs to be restretched, it is a simple and inexpensive thing to have done.

The face of the carpet can be described in terms of pile height, density,
face weight and twist to the yarn. Starting with the last, the tightness to
the twist of the individual tufts helps to determine how they'll hold up to
unraveling and crushing. This is what causes carpet to develop a premature
"fuzz" and a worn look. A twist of "4" means that the yarn is twisted four
times per inch of tuft height. A high number, such as a 4 or 5, results in
a stiffer yarn that is more resistant to wear, but one that also feels
harder to the bare foot and covers less area of the face. . .hence more
tufts are required to give the carpet a good look. The more twists,
generally the better the carpet will wear.

Face weight is a combination of the pile height and the density. The
density is the number of fibers per given area of face. The more individual
fibers, the more yarn is probably between your foot and the backing. A
carpet with a tightly twisted yarn and very high density would obviously
therefore have the most actual yarn on its face, for any given pile height,
than a carpet with less twist or density.

You should also consider pile height. As the height increases, the density
should also increase to prevent the carpet from matting down easily. The
old "shag" carpets were examples of a generally tall pile, tight twist yarn
with a low density. A short "shag" carpet with high density would
approximate today's Saxony-type carpets.

One tuft tends to support an adjacent tuft in a denser carpet. The
combination of the carpets density and the pile height essentially results
in the carpet's face weight. A lower pile with high density might have the
same face weight as a taller pile with a lower density. However, the latter
will obviously matte down faster than the former. A rule of thumb to
remember: The larger the "numbers," the more pile on the carpet and the
more carpet face that you're buying.

Some mills once advertised the "numbers" on their carpets, but many have
elected to just let the customer rely on the salesman. However, most carpet
stores can get comparative data for you if you insist. Be sure to insist.

One quick way to compare carpet samples is to place your hand gently on the
similar samples and move your hand back and forth a bit. The better
carpet's pile will not "wiggle" and crush as easily under your palm.
Another comparison is to flex the sample to see whether the pile breaks in
streaks or breaks more randomly. This will help to determine how it will
look and last on stair treads. Also, you can dig your fingers into the pile
to see how much resistance different samples offer in reaching the backing.
Insist on the "built in" stain resistance.

Tell the salesman that you want to see a good, dense saxony to use as a
benchmark. Insist on the hardest "hand" or "feel" in the store. Then, take
a similar saxony of lesser density and feel it. It will feel wigglier and
softer to the touch. While this may be preferable to a buyer, it is also
indicative that the carpet will not wear as well and may matte down sooner
than the more dense version.

Loop piles, where the twisted yarn rises and returns to the backing without
being cut, generally wears well, and can be found in the traditional loops
and Berbers. This type of carpet is usually more difficult to seam well and
the installers charge more for its installation..

"Wear" for carpet means that it loses its ability to maintain its original
appearance, not just that it loses its pile. Gritty dirt and stains are the
primary enemies of carpet rather than merely abrasion from walking. The
grit acts as tiny scythes to cut individual fibers. Most carpets become
stained and ugly LONG before they're actually worn out. Therefore,
less-than-premium backed carpets of good face weight and density usually
perform quite satisfactorily instead of the fanciest and most expensive
ones.

The padding also has an effect on the carpet's life and enjoyment. Just as
the face weight of carpet SHOULD increase with pile height, the overall
weight of the pad should increase with its thickness. Natural fiber waffle
pad mattes down quickly and is generally not acceptable. Urethane foams
generally lack the density needed for decent padding. The high density
commercial urethane pads are OK, but usually come in 1/4" and lower
thickness to maintain a fire rating. There is a newer super premium
urethane pad that is compressed into a waffle pattern. The result is a
thinner pad for residential use that is very dense. However, it is also
very expensive. This leaves "rebond" pads as the best buy. By chopping up
the foam and recompressing it, a higher density can be achieved.

Carpet pad is rated by its weight per square yard. A 6-pound pad means that
a square yard of it would weigh six pounds. The higher the weight, it would
seem, the more resilient the pad should be. This isn't always the case,
however, since pad also varies in thickness. Imagine you have an imaginary
2" thick 6-pound pad and compare it to a typical 1/2" thick 6-pound pad.
Your foot would travel 2" in the former example before hitting the wood,
while it would travel a maximum of 1/2" in the latter example. Over the
years, folks have come to realize that a distance of about 1/2", maximum,
gives a decent feel for cushion, while sparing the backing and not tiring
out legs from the extra work.

If a pad "flexes" too much under foot, the continuous flexing can cause the
carpet's backing to actually wear or separate from the face, resulting in
premature failure. Personally, I consider a 3/8"- 6-pound rebond to be the
minimum pad for myself, and prefer a 1/2" -9 pound rebond pad for quality
applications. These are very difficult to locate, however. The typical
carpet store standard for "premium" rebond is still the 1/2" 6-pound rebond
and the "medium" grade is a 3/8" 4-pound variety. Many homes have this pad
and it is satisfactory, but not the best. Should a pad exceed 1/2", it may
jeopardize the carpet manufacturer's warranty. This is because the pad
holds the carpet away from the inflexible floor. We've already discussed
the problems with thick pads flexing too much and causing wear to the
backing. Even the densest pads that are too thick, create a similar problem
in permitting the backing to stretch too much.

For example, a chair leg, foot of a bed or other heavy and small object can
actually cause permanent "dimples" in the carpet's backing when a pad is too
thick. The dimples are permanent and can cause the backing to fail in that
area. In heavy foot traffic areas, this problem can affect large areas of
the carpet, causing premature failure.

For stairways, the same padding used on floors may be too springy for
comfort. In my own home, our stairs are padded with a 1/4" commercial super
high density urethane pad to prevent the "pillow" effect on the treads.

Pads are now almost all covered by a thin slippery sheet called a scrim.
Pad must always be spot glued or stapled to the flooring to prevent bunching
or separation of seams. The scrim gives the carpetlayer's staples
something to bite into when fastening the pad to the floor AND also permits
the backing to slip well over the pad for even stretching of the carpet.
Always insist on a scrim. Given limited money, I strongly recommend
investing in the best rebond pad available and moderating the cost of the
carpeting. Remember that PAD, however, is a big markup item for the carpet
stores. Be sure to consider both the PAD and the CARPET separately and not
as a combined unit.

Carpet is sold usually by the square yard (called yard). It can almost
always be found in 12' widths and more frequently now in 15' widths. When a
room (including doorways) is wider than 12' or 15', the carpet must be
seamed. Carpet has a "grain" as well, which means that ends of carpets
cannot be joined to the sides. Even if the carpet is seamed side-to-side,
the installer must be certain to not reverse the direction of the grain. It
CAN be reversed or turned sideways in doorways where it enters a different
room, however. This permits a bit more efficient use of the fixed width of
the carpet.

To calculate the yardage needed, a diagram of the room is usually drawn and
the SEAMS are shown with dotted lines. Likewise, the GRAIN direction of the
carpet is shown. Seams are naturally kept to a minimum and kept from high
traffic areas. Be sure to include the carpet that extends into doorways and
allow at least a 2" "turn-up" on baseboards on either side of the room and
at each end. The "turn-up" is necessary for the installer to properly trim
the carpet precisely to the base board. For the stiffest premium carpets
with very high face weight, the standard wall tool cannot be used. As a
result, the installer must have a 4"-5" "turn-up" on the wall so that he can
gain adequate leverage on the carpet to bend it fully back over on itself
and then manually trim it from the back.

Seams each require at least 1" of waste on each piece of carpet. The
factory sides or ends of the carpet are not just butted together. The
installer must trim away at least 1" of each piece to get a perfectly
straight line and unbent or uncrushed pile. Otherwise, the seam becomes
highly visible.

ALWAYS REQUIRE THE SALESMAN TO SHOW YOU THE DIAGRAM AND TO SHOW YOU HOW HE
CALCULATED THE YARDAGE. One of the oldest tricks in the book is to
OVERestimate the yardage needed, and then reduce the "price per yard," so a
FIXED overall price is then created. The salesman then actually orders or
cuts the actual amount needed OR orders the amount shown on your estimate,
but delivers just the amount needed This permits the salesman to quote you
a LOW PRICE PER YARD (to shut out competitors), while building in the
desired profit. Frequently, the difference between the amount estimated and
the amount actually delivered is a source of the remnants you see sold at
carpet stores.

The salesman's estimate will read like, " 100 yards of carpet, pad and labor
at $25 per yard = $2,500. Since half down will usually be required to order
the carpet, the actual bill of sale will read, "Per estimate, $2,500.
$1,250 received 9/11/96, balance of $1250 due when completed." If the
salesman KNOWS that only 90 yards will be needed, that is all that will
arrive on the truck at your house. It will be installed, you'll be happy
and the salesman will have made an extra $25 per yard on 10 undelivered and
unneeded yards of carpet. So will the installer, usually. In comparing the
salesman's price per yard at other stores, most folks will be comparing the
$25 per yard figure, instead of the $2,500 overall cost.. Folks seldom have
several salesmen out to their houses to measure the carpet before the sale.
They should, if they cannot verify the measurements themselves.

Should you "catch" a salesman doing this, my advice is to go along with the
"miscalculation" of the yardage until the salesman delivers the FINAL
ESTIMATE to you. This tends to usually fix not only what the price is per
yard, but also what labor is included and the price for carpeting any steps.
Then, when it is in your hands, IN WRITING, ask the salesman to go over the
area calculations with you. When the "error" is discovered, you will
undoubtedly benefit from the usually lowballed rate per yard, but based on
the HONEST calculation of area.

In a similar fashion, the best looking installation is one where the largest
continuous pieces of carpet are placed in the rooms. Carpet is never
seamed, or pieced, unless a room is too wide to accommodate a single piece.
Naturally, this results in more waste, but the installation is better
looking and longer lasting. Another old trick is for the salesman to SHOW
you a diagram with the long, continuous, pieces that are required for a
quality job. However, he then prepares another diagram with the carpet
oriented differently to minimize waste- even though it means more seams and
"piecing" of the carpet in large areas. This is quite common, since it can
make a bit more profit for the seller.

To counter this, insist that YOU get a copy of the original diagram and a
note of the actual length of the carpet required. Then, when the roll
arrives with the installer, compare the required length with the cut length
that is usually written on the roll or on the shipping label. Here in
Raleigh, one paint store that also sells carpet is very bad about doing
this. Insist that the installer follow the seaming directions from the
salesman's plans, unless the installer can actually REDUCE the number of
seams.

Another ploy that still "pops up" occasionally is the store "accidentally"
delivering a different pad or carpet than the one actually ordered. For
example, the store might sell you "carpet and pad per quote," but then send
the installer to your house with a carpet of identical color, but one grade
removed from the one your "thought" you were buying. Pad can be easily
switched as well, so don't just rely on the color. LOOK FOR LABELS, mill
ID numbers, and other identification on both the carpet and pad. Be sure to
compare these to what is delivered to your home. If possible, have a sample
on hand of both the expected pad and carpet for comparison. Measure pile
height and compare the "hand" or "feel" of the sample with the roll.

There is usually a separate installation charge for carpeting stairs,
depending upon the degree of difficulty. Wrapped stairs (where the carpet
is fastened to the back of a tread and then "looped" over the tread to the
riser- also called "waterfall" ) is least expensive, where "upholstered"
(where the carpet is tacked to both the top and bottom of the riser and
wrapped around the tread- also called "nosed") is slightly more expensive.
The prices charged for the additional labor vary greatly between carpet
stores. I've seen ranges from $3.50 per step to $8 per step), in addition
to the labor for the yardage used. Since the store pays its contract
installers for labor based upon the yardage sold, plus a bit more per stair
tread, this is a negotiable item. IT IS FREQUENTLY INFLATED BY THE SALESMAN
SO THAT HE CAN USE A LOWER "YARDAGE" PRICE IN THE EVENT YOU SHOULD SHOP
AROUND. Most installers today are paid in the range of $3 per yard for
installation ($4.25 for Berber) , $3 per tread for stairs, $1 per yard for
furniture moving and $1 per yard for tear-out and removal of old carpet.

The carpet used to cover stairs may be cut tread-by-tread and not
necessarily needs to be a continuous piece. This permits the installer to
use pieces of scrap efficiently. However, the installer would prefer to use
continuous strips to minimize the cutting necessary.

Most salesmen will merely calculate the carpet required to cover the stairs
separately, thus increasing the yardage they say you will be needing.
ALWAYS REQUIRE THE SALESMAN TO SHOW YOU HIS DIAGRAM OF THE ROOMS AND TO SHOW
YOU WHERE THE SCRAP WILL BE, AND IF IT CAN BE USED FOR STAIRS. Remember,
however, that turn-up, seaming and doorways can use up a lot of carpet.
Typical stairs use 20" of carpet for the tread and riser, by whatever the
width is. The grain on a stairway is as important as in a room. Should the
grain be rotated on a particular tread, the carpet could have a different
"color" or "look." A good installation keeps the grain oriented the same
for all stair treads.

Should you find that you have very large 12' wide sections of carpet
remaining after the installation is complete, contact the carpet seller and
ask what his policy is for OVERESTIMATES of carpet. Since you relied on
him, as an expert, to measure the carpet, he might be liable to you for any
overestimate.

Pad is sold by the yard as well. However, since pad has no "grain" and is
out of sight, the amount of pad used is almost always about 10% LESS than
the amount of carpet. This is due to the necessary waste of carpet in
keeping the grain running in the same direction, for turnup and to minimize
seams. SHOULD PAD BE PRICED SEPARATELY, NEVER PERMIT THE SALESMAN TO MERELY
USE THE CARPET YARDAGE TO CALCULATE THE PAD YARDAGE. This trick of quoting
the same "yardate" for pad as for carpet is used almost universally by
carpet salesmen. Insist on a separate calculation.

Speaking of pad, don't let the salesman automatically sell you new pad with
a recarpeting. Pad is one of the biggest markup items in the store and
almost always a hard-sell item. Pad that has been flooded, soaked with pet
urine, is crushed, has lost its resiliency, is delaminating from the scrim
or is flaking, should be replaced. However, even the cheapest urethane
(foam) pads can usually have a life expectancy of two or more carpets, if it
hasn't been damaged by pet urine or excess traffic.

The lesson I learned early in life is to get a GOOD pad. In most cases, the
more weight a pad has per square yard, the more resiliency that the pad will
have. I always have purchased the heaviest weight of rebond pad possible,
and have used it through two and as many as three changes of carpet. Pad on
our stairways is always a 1/4" commercial high density urethane to keep the
steps from being "pillows." This practically lasts forever. REMEMBER THAT
IT TAKES LESS YARDAGE OF PAD THAN CARPET IN ALMOST ALL CASES. NEVER LET THE
SALESMAN JUST USE THE CALCULATION FOR CARPET TO JUDGE THE YARDAGE OF PAD
REQUIRED.

Many people aren't aware that a quality installation requires that carpet be
brought to room temperature before being installed. Cold carpet doesn't
stretch well and can even affect the adhesion of seaming material. A good
installation usually requires that the carpet be at room temperature. If
the carpet is in a roll, it can take as long as 3-4 days at room temperature
before the interior of the roll is warm enough. If the installer should
leave the carpet in his truck overnight during the winter, it could
jepoardize the quality of the installation and result in wrinkles, loose
carpet and bad seams.

Should the carpet arrive "cold" at your home, insist that the installer
unroll the carpet and leave it overnight to warm up to house temperature of
65 degrees or more. Likewise, carpet that IS already warm can be installed
in a cold room or stairway, so long as the installer only takes the minimum
amount of warmed carpet into the room or stairway at a time as necessary.

I prefer to have carpet bid on a component basis. This would include things
as 1) remove and return furniture to the room, 2) remove and dispose of old
carpet, 3) remove and dispose of old pad (see above), 4) install new carpet,
5) wrap or upholster stairs, 6) special work (if any) 7) price of pad, per
yard, and 8) price of carpet per yard. Tackless strip and normal seaming is
included usually in the price of carpet installation.

Many stores now price the carpet on an overall price per yard. This is very
ambiguous, which is precisely what the salesman wants, and lends itself well
to overestimating the yardage needed. Which of the above components are
included? What is the price of the pad? Is furniture moving/reinstallation
included? What is the additional price for stairs? Is there a separate
charge for disposal of the old carpet and pad? What quality of pad is
included? What is the additional price per yard to upgrade the pad? Is
sales tax included? If you live in NC, remember that there is no sales tax
on LABOR. Break it out from the estimate, so that you aren't "accidentally"
charged 6% on the labor portion of the bill.

Most stores leave it to the salesman to "break out" the components. Should
you wish to upgrade to a better pad, the allowance built into the "overall
price" for the suggested pad may vary between salesmen, and even on a
day-to-day basis with the same salesman. I know of one store in the Raleigh
area which merely subtracts their COST of the pad from the overall price,
should pad not be included. This means they attempt to make the profit on
the pad whether you use it or not. Another local store may include moving
furniture in its overall price, while another charges $1.25 per yard and
another charges $50 per room. One store charges $4 per tread for
upholstered stairs, while another charges $8 for the same service.

Carpet is made at mills. Frequently, the same mills may make carpet one
week for one "brand name" and for another the next week. Many times, the
carpet produced at the mill may just have different labels slapped on it,
including "brand names," store names and private labels. The carpets coming
from one "brand name" may be actually be woven at different mills, depending
on whether its a saxony, berber, loop, or other type. While the "brand
names" may demand a bit more quality control for their own run within each
mill, the simple fact that different types of carpets are usually woven by
different subcontracting mills means that loyalty to one brand name is
virtually meaningless. Here is where a good salesman's advice is
important.

Even within a BRAND NAME, the carpet stores may place different NAMES and
NAMES FOR COLORS on the carpet samples. This is called "Private Labeling."
This is an attempt to prevent the consumer from comparing the prices of a
specific sample at competing stores. I have had in my possession two
identical samples of Karistan-brand carpet from two competing local carpet
stores. One was labeled as Milan in the color Grindstone. The other was
labeled as Venet in the color of Mauve. A third store could not identify
either sample with its own Karistan "name" for the samples, but could locate
their OWN name and color name from the manufacturer's code on the back of
both samples.

This confusion is deliberate and is fostered by almost all carpet stores and
retailers. A mill, such as Coronet in Dalton GA, may make a plush carpet
(that IT calls model 111) in 15 colors, numbered 0-14) that has the
following specs: Backing is "B", pile height is x/y", twist is x.y, density
is zzzz, face weight is xxxx, filament is ccc, with random steam crushing.
Now, with the advent of computers, virtually any carpet store or retailer
can assign a private name and color name to that carpet. For you technical
types, the mill then uses a computer that could be compared to a DNS. Even
a small carpet store actually orders under its OWN name and color name. The
mill's DNS then translates that into the mill's own line and color, but
prints the label and shipping label using the little carpet store's own
names. Obtaining the TRUE name or model # of the carpet from the mill is
almost like trying to obtain a state secret from the pentagon! A mill will
simply will not identify a carpet sample.

When shopping for carpet, look for little extras that can help lower the
price. One local Color Tile store was offering a 10% discount on any
purchase, should you open a charge account with the store. Investigating
the charge account, I learn that it has no fixed finance charges and can be
prepaid at any time. I also learned that the store accepts Visa and
Mastercard for the purchase or to pay off any credit balance. By merely
opening the charge account, I saved about $3 per yard on my carpet purchase.
The other special deal was "one year same as cash." Since I earn about 5%
tax free on my savings, this equates to a savings of about $1.50 per yard
when waiting the full year to pay off the purchase. Then, by using my GM or
Ford credit cards to pay the balance off when I get the statement, I have
earned another 5% in the rebate of the purchse of a GM or Ford auto or
truck, or approximately another $1.50 per yard! "One year same as cash" is
yet another way to keep your own money drawing interest for another year.
Remember, carpet is a high-profit margin item and the final price is much
more negotiable than even buying an automobile. The "final price" for the
carpet at the Color Tile store was about $30 per yard, but with the
additional discount, year to pay and GM discount, I saved another $6 per
yard!

Installers may be store employees, but most are contract installers. The
contract installers have a pre-agreed price list on file with the store for
various installation types and services, and the store merely calls them to
schedule a time for them to do your installation. Installers that are actual
employees of the store probably are more consistent in their installation
quality, but this is not a certainty. Even a store that brags about having
ONLY its own installers-employees doing your carpet MAY call a contract
installer when they get more business than their own installers can handle.
When you purchase carpet through a lumber yard, paint store, tile store or
department store, the chances are good that they have a list of contract
installers that they call to do your job. At the given time, the contract
installer goes to the store to pick up the roll of carpet and pad, drives to
your home and does what has been agreed upon. He then returns to the store
to dispose of any removed carpet in its dumpster and presents the store with
his bill for the installation. Most stores actually mark up this
installation fee, furniture moving and removal/disposal to make an
additional profit.

On the other hand, the store also usually stands behind the workmanship of
contract installers. Should a seam later fail, should the carpet be flawed
or even if the installer damages your home or furniture, you will deal with
the STORE and not the installer later on. Most contract installers are as
competent as the employee- installers and may do work for a number of paint
stores, lumber yards or other carpet sellers. One day, the installer might
be installing for Home Depot and the following day for Color Tile or
Builder's Square.

On the day new carpet is to arrive- or the day before- ALL installers
(whether contract or employee) require YOU to remove any small items from
the tops of furniture. None will move the furniture if things may fall off
or be damaged. They will move big pieces, but will not do so if there is a
risk of breaking things. Likewise, they will disassemble beds and shelf
units, but will not remake the beds with bedding. Most installers also will
NOT vacuum the carpet after installation. That is a job for the homeowner
and remember to have PLENTY of vacuum bags. Most new installations may
average a vacuum bag per room, due to the new carpet lint and the little
"wooly worms" from trimmed carpet. Be sure to also tell the installer if
you would like him to save any of the bigger scraps. Many of the larger
scraps can be EDGE BOUND by the installer to make wonderful walk-off carpet
mats for entry ways. The typical charge for binding is $1.25 per foot of
binding, including the matching binding itself.

What I've been discussing is the traditional way that carpet is sold and
installed in a home. It is a highly competitive retail business. For the
moment, let's take a look at the types of retailers we've been discussing.

Carpet Retailer: Here, we have a store that sells primarily carpet and hard
surface floor coverings. It might be called a name like XXX Carpet and
Tile. The store would have a showroom filled with brand name samples like
Keristan, Mohawk, Bigelow etc. and probably another showroom or area that
would have its own private label stock. (Remember, however, even the brand
name carpets you see in the main showroom have probably been relabled to
prevent you from comparing at another store) The brand names would almost
always be higher priced than the private label counterpart. Should you
select a brand name, the store then calls the brand name's WAREHOUSE and
orders the appropriate length of carpet. The brand name distributor is the
one responsible for determining which MILL makes which type of carpet in
which color for the brand name's label. The brand name distributor is the
one who orders huge quantities of a particular carpet from some mill and
stocks the rolls in his warehouse. Some department stores may also rely
heavily on brand-name carpet. Remember, however, that the brand name
applies almost always to just the WHOLESALER and NOT to the actual
manufacturering mill.

The retailer, however, may also have a private label carpet as well. Here,
the retailer seldom stocks the carpet in the store. Instead, the retailer
calls the MILL himself and tells them to "cut 150' of XXXX in color YYY and
ship it to me." The mill then decodes the store's own name for the carpet
and color, takes a roll out of its own inventory, makes the cut, wraps the
carpet, slaps on a custom label for the store and loads it on a truck headed
to the store. While there may be generic "wholesalers" with "warehouses"
of private label carpet, most private label carpet is shipped directly from
the mill.

Department Stores (like Sears) Here, chains of stores might actually have
some of their own private label carpets in their own warehouses- or at least
the most popular styles. Otherwise, they order their carpet orders from the
mills just like the retail carpet stores. Sears salespeople will usually
tell you which mill makes their carpet, but will not/cannot tell you the
actual mill model number for the carpet.

Paint and Tile Stores: These stores operate about like Sears and almost
universally order carpet directly from the mill. Color Tile, for example
has a very large selection of private label samples, but does not actually
stock anything. The lumber yards are the same way. References to "I have
to order that from our warehouse," translates into "I need to call the mill
and have your carpet cut and shipped here."

The reason I am mentioning the stocking/warehouse/mill differences is that
most stores can order almost anyone's carpet for you, if you can find out
the mill and mill number for model and color! This makes things very
competitive for an aggressive shopper. At the same time, you can hire a
contract installer to do the same job for you that a store would supply,
without adding in the store's markup. Just by knowing the "magic" of how
carpet is ordered under private labels from mills can save you money. For
example, you could approach a lumber yard or carpet retailer to offer them a
$1.00 per yard profit over their true cost if they will just order the
carpet for you that you like from the mill.

Builders have another "secret" that is not usually well known to homeowners.
Many builders of tract-type housing routinely send trucks to Dalton Georgia
to buy carpet from "wholesalers." Dalton is to carpet what High Point is to
furniture here in NC. About 85% of the carpet made in the US is made within
100 miles of Dalton and two huge mills (Coronet and Shaw Industry "Cabin
Craft") are actually located within the city itself. The mills
manufacturing the brand name and private label carpets have overruns,
returns, non-payments and actual "seconds" that are bought and remarketed by
a number of open-to-the-public "wholesalers" in the area. In addition, the
"wholesalers" operate a VERY discount retailing operation. Most have
samples from the mills in their showrooms and can order the selected carpet
cut direct from the mill for you.

We were in the process of doing some redecoration and decided to recarpet
our home. There was a "deadline," since our son was to be married and we
expected company by a particular date. When we ordered our carpet locally
from a "tile and carpet"-type store, we actually ended up underestimating
the amount of carpet that would be required. To get the carpet here in
time, the store called the mill in Dalton and I drove there in my pickup to
get the remaining 22' piece of carpet to finish the job. From Raleigh,
Dalton is 450 miles away, via I-40 to Knoxville TN, then down I-75 to
Dalton.

I drove to Coronet mill, which was the mill that made our carpet, and they
quickly loaded on the roll of carpet. I then decided that I would also
prowl the "wholesaler" market at virtually every intersection with I-75 to
see what bargains I could find for a recarpeting of our basement. Most of
the "wholesaler" places are similar to any carpet store, except that they
have huge warehouses attached, offering immediate delivery of the
overstock/overrun material they've already purchased from the mills. You
wander along aisles with the salesman, looking at ROLLS of carpet labeled by
mill and length. In the front is usually a showroom that has racks of
samples of the other offerings of the mills in the area, that can be ordered
and usually picked up on the same day.

In my own case, I located a roll of carpet by the same mill as our upstairs
carpet in the saxony design. It was identical to our own carpet, except
that it had a slightly shorter pile height. Overall, my impression was that
the prices of carpet "on the roll" in Dalton is about 40% to 50% of the
"after-negotiation" price of the identical carpet here in Raleigh.
Naturally, some of the difference can be attributed to the cost of shipping,
but it is still FAR less expensive. The trade-off is that you may have to
select carpet that is available that day- and the selection is continually
changing. In my own case, the overall savings on my basement carpet was
about $1,000 AFTER gas, room and several meals at shudderWendy's along the
way. This is a good return for a couple of days seeing beautiful trees and
mountains along the way.

Carpet is rolled so that the rolls are 12' long. This fits nicely in a
pickup truck with the tailgate down, and the wholesaler BAGS the carpet to
keep rain from damaging it in transit. The weight of carpet varies greatly
by type and density, but an extremely dense carpet roll 157' long weighed in
at less than 800#. This means that using an estimate of 4# per square yard
would yield a safe estimate on weight. Even the smallest "Rice-Burner"
pickups could easily haul a whole-house of carpet.

Good luck with your carpet purchases and remember, most stores are honest
and try to do a good job. However, even the best store may try to gain a
competitive edge over another by using a "trick" such as all-in-one pricing
or overestimating the need.

George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.

Nonny

Primer for Buying Carpet

(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.

--
aem sends...

mike wrote:

I don't mind paying more for better product. I don't want
to pay more for the same or inferior product.

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?

A bit like buying a mattress, isn't it? Carpet manufacturers used to publish
thread counts but stopped doing it the request of retailers who didn't want that
information available. Retailers argued that people were comparing thread counts
on different types of carpet (berber vs shag for example). You might ask your
sales person for the number and see if they will give it to you.

Robert Neville wrote:

A bit like buying a mattress, isn't it? Carpet manufacturers used to publish
thread counts but stopped doing it the request of retailers who didn't want that
information available. Retailers argued that people were comparing thread counts
on different types of carpet (berber vs shag for example). You might ask your
sales person for the number and see if they will give it to you.

Sorry - said thread count, but was thinking fiber weight. George's post
expressed it far better...

On Aug 12, 4:58*am, mike wrote:

So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?

_I_ just (used to) look at the weave density. If I can easily
separate the tufts and see the backing I trust I'm looking at crap.
Comparing densities should provide a good idea of quality. I don't
think they go to the trouble of disguising inferior material with a
denser weave, but these days it wouldn't surprise me.

(I assess upholstered furniture first by the arm padding, then by
weight.)

My original shag made it 38 years.

Somebody at your house must know how to vacuum.
-----

- gpsman

On Aug 12, 6:36*pm, aemeijers wrote:
George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. *It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.

Nonny

Primer for Buying Carpet

(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.

--
aem sends...


You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

~~ Evan

On Aug 12, 10:28*pm, Evan wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36*pm, aemeijers wrote:



George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. *It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.

Nonny

Primer for Buying Carpet

(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.

--
aem sends...

You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... *It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

There was some TV show or other that showed how they cleaned Persian
rugs in Persia - with a hose and a push broom!

R

gpsman wrote:
On Aug 12, 4:58 am, mike wrote:
So, what are the features/specs to look for in residential
carpet?

_I_ just (used to) look at the weave density. If I can easily
separate the tufts and see the backing I trust I'm looking at crap.
Comparing densities should provide a good idea of quality. I don't
think they go to the trouble of disguising inferior material with a
denser weave, but these days it wouldn't surprise me.

(I assess upholstered furniture first by the arm padding, then by
weight.)

My original shag made it 38 years.

Somebody at your house must know how to vacuum.
-----

- gpsman

The carpet fiber is just fine. It's the glue that holds the fibers
to the backing that's disintegrating.
I don't vacuum it at all any more 'cause the Hoover sucks up chunks
of carpet.

In 37 years, the only contractors that have previously visited have been
the roofer.
I just had the place weatherized/insulated. I was shocked by the
ineptitude of the contractors.

The most glaring example was that the nails holding down the subflooring
protruded into the crawl space.
They got tired of snagging on them, so they just pounded them back up into
the floor. Wonder what happens to the heads when you pound them up??
Duh!!! I'm still finding lumps under the carpet that I have to bang
down. That's another reason to go easy on the vacuuming.

I let 'em do stuff that I thought violated basic engineering principles
because, "they are experienced and know what they're doing."
Most of the stuff they screwed up was stuff they shouldn't have touched
at all.
After it was done, I regretted not throwing them out the first day.
But how do you find someone who is NOT an idiot and takes pride in his work?

After reading the links presented in this thread, I dread the upcoming
carpeting fiasco. Nobody is gonna take the time to do all the things
set forth in the CRI installation guidelines in one of the links presented
earlier in this thread.

Evan wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36 pm, aemeijers wrote:
George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.
Nonny
Primer for Buying Carpet
(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.

--
aem sends...


You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

~~ Evan

I'm not talking hand-dyed and hand-tied Persian rugs here. Yeah, I've
seen on TOH and other shows how those have to be cleaned. Fortunately,
the cost of those is well higher on the food chain than I will ever be.

I was speaking of the basically disposable rugs like you get at BigLots
or Kmart, to put near weather doors, beside the bed, at the bottom of
the stairs so your feet can 'see' the bottom when your arms are full,
that sort of thing. Rugs where if they last five years, they don't owe
you anything.

--
aem sends...

RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:28 pm, Evan wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36 pm, aemeijers wrote:



George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.
Nonny
Primer for Buying Carpet
(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.
--
aem sends...
You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

There was some TV show or other that showed how they cleaned Persian
rugs in Persia - with a hose and a push broom!

R
Chuckle. When the faux-persian area rug that came with this house in the
dining nook gets too nasty, that is about how it will probably get
washed. Except I'll use the push broom to clean the bay in the coin-op
car wash, lay the rug on its face, and blow the dirt out from the back.
When the rinse water runs clear, I'll flip it over and float out any
debris. Only part I haven't figured out yet is how to get it home. Maybe
I'll get lucky and score a cheap pressure washer on craigs list.

--
aem sends....

On 08/12/2010 11:14 PM, aemeijers wrote:
Evan wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36 pm, aemeijers wrote:
George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely
and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.
Nonny
Primer for Buying Carpet
(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.

--
aem sends...


You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

~~ Evan

I'm not talking hand-dyed and hand-tied Persian rugs here. Yeah, I've
seen on TOH and other shows how those have to be cleaned. Fortunately,
the cost of those is well higher on the food chain than I will ever be.

I was speaking of the basically disposable rugs like you get at BigLots
or Kmart, to put near weather doors, beside the bed, at the bottom of
the stairs so your feet can 'see' the bottom when your arms are full,
that sort of thing. Rugs where if they last five years, they don't owe
you anything.

I managed to get a really nice Chinese-made "Persian" rug off Craigslist
for something like $900 for my living room. I defy anyone to tell the
difference between it and the real deal. Sometimes you get lucky. Love
walking on it in bare feet, too.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Thu, 12 Aug 2010 23:22:49 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 10:28 pm, Evan wrote:
On Aug 12, 6:36 pm, aemeijers wrote:



George wrote:
I'm going to risk catching Hell and attach an article I wrote years ago
concerning carpet and carpet sales practices. It was from a different
time in a different region of the country, but is still quite timely and
valid. Any comment or suggestions on how it can be improved would also
be appreciated.
Nonny
Primer for Buying Carpet
(Long educational tale snipped)
Thank you- that was very enlightening. Bottom line is, it reinforces my
distaste for WW carpet even more. Gimme hardwood with the occasional
area rug small enough to wash in the big-boy washer at the laundromat.
--
aem sends...
You shouldn't wash a real area rug in a washing machine, all that
tumbling
around will place many years of wear on a real carpet...

When carpets are washed by someone who knows what they are doing
they are unrolled flat onto a conveyor belt and run through a machine
with
sprayer heads which spray cleaning solution/rinse water onto the
carpet
as it passes underneath on the conveyor... It is then blown with warm
air to remove excess water and hung to dry on a racking system in a
humidity controlled warmed space...

There was some TV show or other that showed how they cleaned Persian
rugs in Persia - with a hose and a push broom!

That wouldn't necessarily be the best way to do it. That might just be
the only way they thought of to do it, the successor to a bucket from
the stream. IIRC, real Persian carpets are made by children
instead of going to school, and when the Shah was in charge, he
insisted that children go to school and the supply of authentic,
hand-made Persian rugs dropped substantially and the price went up a
lot. (Was that when the cheap machine made imitations started
showing up? I don't know.)

After he was overthown around 1976, the ibbydibbydawb folks permitted
child labor again, and while in some cities life is pretty modern for
many, I think in parts of Iran it's still like the 15th century.

R
Chuckle. When the faux-persian area rug that came with this house in the
dining nook gets too nasty, that is about how it will probably get
washed. Except I'll use the push broom to clean the bay in the coin-op
car wash, lay the rug on its face, and blow the dirt out from the back.
When the rinse water runs clear, I'll flip it over and float out any
debris. Only part I haven't figured out yet is how to get it home.

That's a pretty good idea. Probably most of the bays are oil-free.
Go to a place near home. Put a plastic sheet or just a blanket on
your roof and drape the carpet over the roof, folding as many times as
needed. Tie it on especially at the front and drive slowly. Since
it's wet, I think the tail end won't flap in the breeze much, but you
could have someone in a chase car blow his horn if there's trouble.
(Wait. You guys probably have those thiggermajigs, sellfones.) Or you
could just stop periodically, get out, and see if it's flappying. Oh
yeah, close the car windows or you'll have local dirt and essence of
persian child dripping in your windows. Wait, yours is faux-persional
so your okay on the second one.


Maybe
I'll get lucky and score a cheap pressure washer on craigs list.

mike wrote:

After it was done, I regretted not throwing them out the first day.
But how do you find someone who is NOT an idiot and takes pride in
his work?
After reading the links presented in this thread, I dread the upcoming
carpeting fiasco. Nobody is gonna take the time to do all the things
set forth in the CRI installation guidelines in one of the links
presented earlier in this thread.

Quality of work is the second reason to do-it-yourself (the first is cost).

I suspect the third reason for DIY is the pleasure of the effort and the
pride in the result.

You might consider carpet tiles.

A few days after Hurricane Yikes, I scored about 2000 sq ft of 2x2 carpet
tiles. A store in which they were installed suffered a wet floor and used
that as an excuse to have their insurance pay for new carpeting.

For about half the tiles, evidently fixtures were sitting atop them for some
years and they had no wear at all. Checking the manufacturer's number on the
back, I discovered these commercial, heavy wear, carpet tiles retailed for
about $40/yd!

Anyway, with some glue I've carpeted the library in my home and the office
snack-bar. Looks swell and will last forever.

Point is, carpet tiles were a trivial DIY project.

RicodJour wrote:

There are carpet rating systems, but even they can be misleading.
These three should bring you up to speed.

http://www.carpetguru.com/shop200.htm#

The advice that page seems to be highlighting is:

"If you don't know Carpet, know your Carpet dealer"

I'm sorry, but that's really useless advice. What am I supposed to do,
invite the carpet dealer to dinner, start playing golf with him, make
him my new best friend?

I came to that page to "know carpet". If it's not going to tell me
anything really useful about carpet, then WTF?

In article , Sum Guy wrote:

RicodJour wrote:

There are carpet rating systems, but even they can be misleading.
These three should bring you up to speed.

http://www.carpetguru.com/shop200.htm#

The advice that page seems to be highlighting is:

"If you don't know Carpet, know your Carpet dealer"

I'm sorry, but that's really useless advice. What am I supposed to do,
invite the carpet dealer to dinner, start playing golf with him, make
him my new best friend?

I came to that page to "know carpet". If it's not going to tell me
anything really useful about carpet, then WTF?

Did you read the whole site? The sentence you quoted is just advertising
hyperbole, obviously, the guy is trying to generate business for
himself. "You've got a friend in the carpet business" type of thing.
Nothing particularly sinister or underhanded about that. I didn't even
read that page, but saw that he had links to many pages of other
possibly useful information, which I'd likely read if I were in the
market for carpet.

On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:
In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. (Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: less to clean.

Cindy Hamilton

On Aug 13, 10:32*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:



In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

If it is, the wrong tile was used.

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

Our master bath in the previous house was carpeted. It actually
wasn't bad when I ripped it out. It was there at least fifteen years
when I did it. Carpet in the bathroom is still a dumb idea.

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. *Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. *(Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

That's what we do. One in front of the shower and each sink, and a
shaped one under the commode ; where the feet go.

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: *less to clean.

Tile is easy. Less isn't less work. The additional sink, tub, and
shower are.

On Aug 13, 1:47*pm, keith wrote:
On Aug 13, 10:32*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:





On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

If it is, the wrong tile was used.

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

Our master bath in the previous house was carpeted. *It actually
wasn't bad when I ripped it out. *It was there at least fifteen years
when I did it. *Carpet in the bathroom is still a dumb idea.

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. *Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. *(Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

That's what we do. *One in front of the shower and each sink, and a
shaped one under the commode ; where the feet go.

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: *less to clean.

Tile is easy. *Less isn't less work. *The additional sink, tub, and
shower are.

Less floor area is less to clean. Why should I clean a 10' x 10'
bathroom with a vanity, tub, and toilet when I can clean a 5x10
one? (Additional?) Shoot, come to think of it, it's probably
5x9, not 5x10, since it's no deeper than the kitchen.

Here's a pictu
http://www.adi.com/~hamilton/house/insidepix/bath.html
(by the way, that's not our stuff; we took this picture when
walking through it prior to buying)

Same holds for the 9x9 kitchen (which, frankly, I wish was a
little larger), the 9x9 dining room, and the relatively modest
14x23 living room (no family room). Overall, I like a small
house.

It's cheap to heat, too.

Cindy Hamilton

On Aug 13, 12:55*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Aug 13, 1:47*pm, keith wrote:



On Aug 13, 10:32*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

If it is, the wrong tile was used.

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

Our master bath in the previous house was carpeted. *It actually
wasn't bad when I ripped it out. *It was there at least fifteen years
when I did it. *Carpet in the bathroom is still a dumb idea.

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. *Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. *(Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

That's what we do. *One in front of the shower and each sink, and a
shaped one under the commode ; where the feet go.

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: *less to clean.

Tile is easy. *Less isn't less work. *The additional sink, tub, and
shower are.

Less floor area is less to clean. *Why should I clean a 10' x 10'
bathroom with a vanity, tub, and toilet when I can clean a 5x10
one? *(Additional?) *Shoot, come to think of it, it's probably
5x9, not 5x10, since it's no deeper than the kitchen.

The point is that a 10x15 bathroom floor is no more difficult to clean
than a 5x10. The tools are the same (better/professional tools are
actually easier to use) and the obstacles are the same. Open floor
space is *easy* to clean. The commode and other obstacles (heaven
forbid, a pedestal sink) that takes the work and the overhead of
getting the cleaning supplies out and put back away is pretty much a
constant.

Here's a pictuhttp://www.adi.com/~hamilton/house/insidepix/bath.html
(by the way, that's not our stuff; we took this picture when
walking through it prior to buying)

Same holds for the 9x9 kitchen (which, frankly, I wish was a
little larger), the 9x9 dining room, and the relatively modest
14x23 living room (no family room). *Overall, I like a small
house.

I don't. We like space (3BR - 3.5Bath - 2600ft^2 - 2 people).

It's cheap to heat, too.

Heat is cheap.

On Aug 13, 3:10*pm, keith wrote:
On Aug 13, 12:55*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:





On Aug 13, 1:47*pm, keith wrote:

On Aug 13, 10:32*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

If it is, the wrong tile was used.

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

Our master bath in the previous house was carpeted. *It actually
wasn't bad when I ripped it out. *It was there at least fifteen years
when I did it. *Carpet in the bathroom is still a dumb idea.

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. *Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. *(Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

That's what we do. *One in front of the shower and each sink, and a
shaped one under the commode ; where the feet go.

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: *less to clean.

Tile is easy. *Less isn't less work. *The additional sink, tub, and
shower are.

Less floor area is less to clean. *Why should I clean a 10' x 10'
bathroom with a vanity, tub, and toilet when I can clean a 5x10
one? *(Additional?) *Shoot, come to think of it, it's probably
5x9, not 5x10, since it's no deeper than the kitchen.

The point is that a 10x15 bathroom floor is no more difficult to clean
than a 5x10. *

I'd rather clean 50 square feet than 150 square feet (minus the
obstacles).

The tools are the same (better/professional tools are
actually easier to use) and the obstacles are the same. *Open floor
space is *easy* to clean. *The commode and other obstacles (heaven
forbid, a pedestal sink) that takes the work and the overhead of
getting the cleaning supplies out and put back away is pretty much a
constant.

Here's a pictuhttp://www.adi.com/~hamilton/house/insidepix/bath.html
(by the way, that's not our stuff; we took this picture when
walking through it prior to buying)

Same holds for the 9x9 kitchen (which, frankly, I wish was a
little larger), the 9x9 dining room, and the relatively modest
14x23 living room (no family room). *Overall, I like a small
house.

I don't. *We like space (3BR - 3.5Bath - 2600ft^2 - 2 people).

3 BR, 1 bath, 1200ft^2, 2 people

(Actually, I would like another half bath. But a little courtesy
and consideration makes things work fairly smoothly. For the
first few years of my life it was 3 BR, 1 bath, about 700 ft^2,
4 adults and 1 child.)

It's cheap to heat, too.

Heat is cheap.

Depends where you live.

I think what we've demonstrated here, though, is that
tastes (and priorities) vary.

Cindy

On Aug 13, 2:20*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:
On Aug 13, 3:10*pm, keith wrote:



On Aug 13, 12:55*pm, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Aug 13, 1:47*pm, keith wrote:

On Aug 13, 10:32*am, Cindy Hamilton
wrote:

On Aug 12, 7:15*pm, (Malcolm Hoar) wrote:

In article , wrote:
The price of carpet seems to be related more to the
store image than the quality of the carpet.

Yup.

One guy emphasized the stain repellent.

It helps. But it's not magic.

Other guy emphasized the importance of high density pad.

Good pad matters.

One emphasized the tightness of the weave on the backside.

Look at the overall density of the carpet; back and pile.

Just need to figure out how to read thru the salesspeak and get the most
bang for the buck.

Consider installing it yourself. It's not nearly as hard
as it's made out to be, especially if you can avoid
seams.

Renting or buying a kicker is essential. Plus an iron if
you'll need to seam. I've always been able to get away
without a stretcher in normal residential sized rooms.
Shears are nice but you can do it all with a utility
knife and *lot* of blades.

Best tip I picked up while working as a professional
carpet fitter...

Never use regular carpet in bathrooms/toilets. Carpet
hates water.

If you (or SWMBO) demands the warmth and softness of
carpet, look for waterproof (wet area rated) carpet
tiles. They work quite well.

Tile and stone can hold up better but they are cold,
potentially slippery, and hard (if any members of the
household are susceptible to a fall).

If it is, the wrong tile was used.

But regular carpet is a big no-no. The stuff I've had
to remove from old bathrooms was absolutely disgusting!

Our master bath in the previous house was carpeted. *It actually
wasn't bad when I ripped it out. *It was there at least fifteen years
when I did it. *Carpet in the bathroom is still a dumb idea.

I simply bought two big rubber-backed bath rugs at
Bedbugs Beyond. *Once a week I throw them in
the washer and dryer. *(Actually, I have two sets, so
each set is washed every other week.)

That's what we do. *One in front of the shower and each sink, and a
shaped one under the commode ; where the feet go.

Of course, it helps that the bathroom is only 5' by 10'.
The vanity, tub, and toilet take up most of the floor,
so those two rugs cover almost all of what's left.

One of the advantages of owning a modest post-war
ranch: *less to clean.

Tile is easy. *Less isn't less work. *The additional sink, tub, and
shower are.

Less floor area is less to clean. *Why should I clean a 10' x 10'
bathroom with a vanity, tub, and toilet when I can clean a 5x10
one? *(Additional?) *Shoot, come to think of it, it's probably
5x9, not 5x10, since it's no deeper than the kitchen.

The point is that a 10x15 bathroom floor is no more difficult to clean
than a 5x10. *

I'd rather clean 50 square feet than 150 square feet (minus the
obstacles).

Again, outside the obstacles and the overhead of the tools, the area
is insignificant. It takes perhaps 30 seconds to wash the bathroom
floor, no matter what size it is. It takes significantly more time to
clean around the commode, though even that is small compared to other
areas.

The tools are the same (better/professional tools are
actually easier to use) and the obstacles are the same. *Open floor
space is *easy* to clean. *The commode and other obstacles (heaven
forbid, a pedestal sink) that takes the work and the overhead of
getting the cleaning supplies out and put back away is pretty much a
constant.

Here's a pictuhttp://www.adi.com/~hamilton/house/insidepix/bath.html
(by the way, that's not our stuff; we took this picture when
walking through it prior to buying)

Same holds for the 9x9 kitchen (which, frankly, I wish was a
little larger), the 9x9 dining room, and the relatively modest
14x23 living room (no family room). *Overall, I like a small
house.

I don't. *We like space (3BR - 3.5Bath - 2600ft^2 - 2 people).

3 BR, 1 bath, 1200ft^2, 2 people

(Actually, I would like another half bath. *But a little courtesy
and consideration makes things work fairly smoothly. *For the
first few years of my life it was 3 BR, 1 bath, about 700 ft^2,
4 adults and 1 child.)

We didn't always have this much space either, which is perhaps why we
enjoy it now. I don't want anything bigger, though. We did look at a
couple of 3500ft^2 houses. I nixxed them. I had no idea what we'd
put in the space. ;-)

It's cheap to heat, too.

Heat is cheap.

Depends where you live.

Alabama, but we make up for the mild winters with the AC in the
summer. It's still cheap compared to the other expenses of owning a
house.

I think what we've demonstrated here, though, is that
tastes (and priorities) vary.

Certainly. That's why they make big houses, small houses, and I
suppose someone out there even likes condos. ;-)

On Aug 12, 12:01*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On Aug 12, 11:31*am, keith wrote:

If the whole house is done, they can often just put a seam in the
middle and keep the direction on each half the same, saving a lot. The
direction cannot be changed, though. *yes 30% or 50% loss is possible,
depending on the layout.

It's possible to have 100% wastage if it's installed in the wrong
house, if the wrong carpet is ordered, if the installer is a moron, or
the guy selling you the carpet is taking total advantage of your noob-
ness.

I provided scores of links that show carpet wastage to typically be
between 5% and 15%...which is roughly...errr....10%. *Show me just one
link that agrees with your grossly inflated wastage allowance and I'll
apologize. *Deal?

How's the search for the 30% to 50% wastage link going, keith?
I have an apology all ready to go whenever you are.

R

PS I'm just tweaking you - don't take it personally.