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#1
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How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?)
After cutting a 500-yard long path through thick poison oak, I'm now applying huge amounts of glyphosate-based Roundup weed killer to kill remaining emergent plants left behind after the battle. These constant skirmishes are depleting my Roundup, gallon by expensive gallon (bought in concentrated bulk from Costco). I'm spraying the stems, the ground, and the leaves ... but ... I wonder ... what is the mechanism that allows UPTAKE of the glyphosate? I looked up how weed killers kill, and can easily ascertain that glyphosates mimick the natural EPSP Synthase needed as a catlyst for the plant to create proteins ... but nothing I've found so far tells me how the glyphosate is ABSORBED into the plant and WHERE it is best applied (leaves?, stem?, roots?). Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? |
#2
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote:
Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? |
#3
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On 4/25/2010 1:27 PM, Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? From what I can gather, it's absorbed through foliage. Just like your skin transpires, chemicals can be absorbed through it. Directions on small spray bottle of Roundup that I have says spray on foliage and if you accidentally spray on something you did not intend to, wash it off. That would indicate less harm to plant if in soil. |
#4
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Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chemistry
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![]() "Elmo" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? There are better brush killers than roundup. Brush killers are absorbed thru the leaves. They also can be applied to a fresh cut stump in a concentrated form. I would be using Garlon instead of roundup. I would apply it to the leaves a few days before I cut the plant down. When I cut the plant down I might also paint some on the stump. I would then reapply it to any regrowth from the roots every few weeks. The best time to use a brush killer is when the plant is actively growing in the spring. I might also buy a couple of goats to help with the regrowth. |
#5
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On Apr 25, 1:06*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) "This product moves through the plant from the point of foliage" I'm spraying the stems, the ground, and the leaves ... but ... I wonder .... what is the mechanism that allows UPTAKE of the glyphosate? Osmosis. I looked up how weed killers kill, and can easily ascertain that glyphosates mimick the natural EPSP Synthase needed as a catlyst for the plant to create proteins ... but nothing I've found so far tells me how the glyphosate is ABSORBED into the plant and WHERE it is best applied (leaves?, stem?, roots?). "Annual weeds are easiest to control when they are small. Best control of most perennial weeds is obtained when treatment is made at late growth stages approaching maturity. Refer to the “ANNUAL WEEDS”, “PERENNIAL WEEDS” and “WOODY BRUSH AND TREES RATE TABLES” for recommendations for specific weeds." Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? "For best results, spray coverage should be uniform and complete. Do not spray weed foliage to the point of runoff." "FOR PRODUCT INFORMATION OR ASSISTANCE IN USING THIS PRODUCT, CALL TOLL-FREE, 1-800-332-3111. 2. IN CASE OF AN EMERGENCY INVOLVING THIS HERBICIDE PRODUCT, OR FOR MEDICAL ASSISTANCE, CALL COLLECT, DAY OR NIGHT, (314)-694-4000." http://www.umt.edu/sentinel/roundup_label.pdf ----- - gpsman |
#6
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Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) Spray vegetation killers like Roundup contain glyphosate and a toxic surfactant. The surfactant helps spread the glyphosate on the plants' exterior for maximum effect. That's confusing toxicity of the surfactant with effectiveness as the herbicidal agent--it isn't effective at all as part of the herbicide; it's purpose is simply to serve as a surfactant to counteract surface tension of water and wet the foliage thereby promoting takeup. .... ... It's important not to saturate the ground when using a spray vegetation killer around vegetation you don't want destroyed because it can easily leech into the soil and also become a systemic poison for wanted vegetation. ... Glyphosate breaks down and/or attaches very quickly in the soil which renders it ineffective. Also, since its action is only via enzyme interaction at active growing points within the plant it is not, therefore, effective as a pre-emergent herbicide. -- |
#7
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On 4/25/2010 12:06 PM, Elmo wrote:
How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) After cutting a 500-yard long path through thick poison oak, I'm now applying huge amounts of glyphosate-based Roundup weed killer to kill remaining emergent plants left behind after the battle. These constant skirmishes are depleting my Roundup, gallon by expensive gallon (bought in concentrated bulk from Costco). I'm spraying the stems, the ground, and the leaves ... but ... I wonder ... what is the mechanism that allows UPTAKE of the glyphosate? I looked up how weed killers kill, and can easily ascertain that glyphosates mimick the natural EPSP Synthase needed as a catlyst for the plant to create proteins ... but nothing I've found so far tells me how the glyphosate is ABSORBED into the plant and WHERE it is best applied (leaves?, stem?, roots?). Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate |
#8
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Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? osmosis As I said the last time you posted, you'd get better control to spray the plants _before_ cutting (while actively growing, of course) and let it do it's work. It'll take a while, but it will do so. Once you've cut it off, you're only application point is to individually "paint" the stumps or wait for regrowth. -- |
#9
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#10
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On Apr 25, 12:06*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) After cutting a 500-yard long path through thick poison oak, I'm now applying huge amounts of glyphosate-based Roundup weed killer to kill remaining emergent plants left behind after the battle. These constant skirmishes are depleting my Roundup, gallon by expensive gallon (bought in concentrated bulk from Costco). I'm spraying the stems, the ground, and the leaves ... but ... I wonder .... what is the mechanism that allows UPTAKE of the glyphosate? I looked up how weed killers kill, and can easily ascertain that glyphosates mimick the natural EPSP Synthase needed as a catlyst for the plant to create proteins ... but nothing I've found so far tells me how the glyphosate is ABSORBED into the plant and WHERE it is best applied (leaves?, stem?, roots?). Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? As others said its the leaves, and if all you have are leafless stumps you are wasting the roundup spraying, dont the roundup instructions state this, to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks, or its not dead. |
#11
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Pat wrote:
"Elmo" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? There are better brush killers than roundup. Brush killers are absorbed thru the leaves. They also can be applied to a fresh cut stump in a concentrated form. I would be using Garlon instead of roundup. I would apply it to the leaves a few days before I cut the plant down. When I cut the plant down I might also paint some on the stump. I would then reapply it to any regrowth from the roots every few weeks. The best time to use a brush killer is when the plant is actively growing in the spring. I might also buy a couple of goats to help with the regrowth. Just thought I'd mention... I had heard applying too much poison can sometimes make the poison less effective. I find some things hard to believe but when it was explained to me I caught on. Some poisons, like mentioned, rely on the plant to uptake the poison and spread it throughout the plant including the roots. If the poison is mixed too strong, it kills off the foliage before it has had time to get to the roots. The top of the weed dies, then the roots send more foliage back up again. Ahh, now I get it! FWIW |
#12
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On Apr 25, 3:06�pm, Tony wrote:
Pat wrote: "Elmo" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask .... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? There are better brush killers than roundup. �Brush killers are absorbed thru the leaves. �They also can be applied to a fresh cut stump in a concentrated form. �I would be using Garlon instead of roundup. �I would apply it to the leaves a few days before I cut the plant down. �When I cut the plant down I might also paint some on the stump. �I would then reapply it to any regrowth from the roots every few weeks. �The best time to use a brush killer is when the plant is actively growing in the spring. �I might also buy a couple of goats to help with the regrowth. Just thought I'd mention... I had heard applying too much poison can sometimes make the poison less effective. �I find some things hard to believe but when it was explained to me I caught on. �Some poisons, like mentioned, rely on the plant to uptake the poison and spread it throughout the plant including the roots. �If the poison is mixed too strong, it kills off the foliage before it has had time to get to the roots. �The top of the weed dies, then the roots send more foliage back up again. �Ahh, now I get it! �FWIW- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Had some difficult to kill poision ivy on a slope. definetely only spray leaves Tried roundup, it just stunted its growth tried poision ivy killer, again stunted growth. talked with a landscaper who would only kill the entire slope, there were long term plantings there I didnt want to kill ![]() came here and got EXCELLENT suggestion ![]() mix roundup 50/50 with poision ivy killer. breaks feds law but it WORKS I actually felt bad for the poision ivy, after being so dedicated it looked bad 12 hours after spraying and was firmly dead in a week. do note the dead stems etc can still make you itchy ![]() so first let the poision ivy leaf out lushely again. Then break federal law by mixing the chemicals, and wipe out your poision ivy patch ![]() |
#13
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote:
dont the roundup instructions state to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks But what is the mechanism that makes leaves "intake" (absorb, adsorb, injest, osmosis, etc.) the poison. Why would a leaf, which is an excretion organ of the plant for liquids (transpiration) and gases (outgassing) ... why would that outgassing leaf INTAKE the poison? The water comes up the roots and out the leaves. Why would the leaves intake the liquid poison? |
#14
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:26:53 -0500, [SMF] wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate "It is absorbed through foliage and translocated to growing points." But, WHY does a plant absorb the poison when the plant normally doens't absorb water from its leaves. IIRC, a plant absorbs water from the roots and transpires that water out the leaves so that nutrients flow up and sugars manufactured by the leaf flow down, with oxygen given off as a waste byproduct. What I don't understand, if we can give a leaf a personality, is why the leaf bothers to absorb the wet chemical. What is that mechanism that makes the leaf want to absorb the poison. Someone said osmosis, which might be right ... in that the concentration of the glyphosate is greater on the outside of the leaf than on the inside and the cell membranes allow the stuff through ... maybe it's that simple. Maybe not. That's why I'm asking. |
#15
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On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:23:15 -0500, dpb wrote:
Path: aioe.org!eternal-september.org!news.eternal-september.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: dpb Newsgroups: alt.home.repair Subject: WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:23:15 -0500 Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Lines: 28 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 18:25:09 +0000 (UTC) Injection-Info: news.eternal-september.org; posting-host="vgA/PHncKsIkdCc4Uk/QZA"; logging-data="24019"; "; posting-account="U2FsdGVkX18vTkptpZ9iohbgcPPeyRfn" User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) In-Reply-To: Cancel-Lock: sha1:+fib+m1Wut+e/LAyUxuDpvVWEp0= Xref: aioe.org alt.home.repair:94648 Jeff The Drunk wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) Spray vegetation killers like Roundup contain glyphosate and a toxic surfactant. The surfactant helps spread the glyphosate on the plants' exterior for maximum effect. That's confusing toxicity of the surfactant with effectiveness as the herbicidal agent--it isn't effective at all as part of the herbicide; it's purpose is simply to serve as a surfactant to counteract surface tension of water and wet the foliage thereby promoting takeup. ... ... It's important not to saturate the ground when using a spray vegetation killer around vegetation you don't want destroyed because it can easily leech into the soil and also become a systemic poison for wanted vegetation. ... Glyphosate breaks down and/or attaches very quickly in the soil which renders it ineffective. Also, since its action is only via enzyme interaction at active growing points within the plant it is not, therefore, effective as a pre-emergent herbicide. It looks like the glyphosate can be injected into the trunk and it (somehow magically) is "absorbed" by the leaves (but how?). After getting inside the plant (via the trunk or leaves), it seems to be transported to "growing points", where the glyphosate mimics an enzyme therby screwing up that catalytic reaction. But, WHY/HOW would a plant absorb the glyphosate in the first place? What mechanism does it use to take in the poison? |
#16
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#17
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On Apr 25, 1:35*pm, "Pat" wrote:
"Elmo" wrote in message ... On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask .... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate .... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? There are better brush killers than roundup. *Brush killers are absorbed thru the leaves. *They also can be applied to a fresh cut stump in a concentrated form. *I would be using Garlon instead of roundup. *I would apply it to the leaves a few days before I cut the plant down. *When I cut the plant down I might also paint some on the stump. *I would then reapply it to any regrowth from the roots every few weeks. *The best time to use a brush killer is when the plant is actively growing in the spring. *I might also buy a couple of goats to help with the regrowth. Herbicides that are absorbed through the leaves can be rendered ineffective if mixed to strongly. This is because of their systemic nature. It takes time for the active ingredient to make it to the roots. If excessive ingredients are present it just kills the leaves and leaves the roots. Unfortunately the public demand was to have instant results so lines of herbicides were placed on the market that killed leaves and little else. Jimmie |
#18
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On Apr 25, 4:31*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote: dont the roundup instructions state to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks But what is the mechanism that makes leaves "intake" (absorb, adsorb, injest, osmosis, etc.) the poison. Why would a leaf, which is an excretion organ of the plant for liquids (transpiration) and gases (outgassing) ... why would that outgassing leaf INTAKE the poison? The water comes up the roots and out the leaves. Why would the leaves intake the liquid poison? They also take in, they breath so poison enters through the leaf and affects the whole plant root and all. |
#19
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Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote: dont the roundup instructions state to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks But what is the mechanism that makes leaves "intake" (absorb, adsorb, injest, osmosis, etc.) the poison. Osmosis. Why would a leaf, which is an excretion organ of the plant for liquids (transpiration) and gases (outgassing) ... why would that outgassing leaf INTAKE the poison? Leaves are excretion organs? Haven't heard of leaves taking in CO2? Same reason your body would if you get it on your skin. The water comes up the roots and out the leaves. Why would the leaves intake the liquid poison? |
#20
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On Apr 25, 6:51*pm, ransley wrote:
On Apr 25, 4:31*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied- Address.invalid wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote: dont the roundup instructions state to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks But what is the mechanism that makes leaves "intake" (absorb, adsorb, injest, osmosis, etc.) the poison. Why would a leaf, which is an excretion organ of the plant for liquids (transpiration) and gases (outgassing) ... why would that outgassing leaf INTAKE the poison? The water comes up the roots and out the leaves. Why would the leaves intake the liquid poison? They also take in, they breath so poison enters through the leaf and affects the whole plant root and all. I can't answer _why_ they take it in, just accept the _fact_ that they do. BUT: Quit wasting your roundup - it works if applied properly. 1. On green growing things ONLY. Spray on the ground is a waste and does nothing. 2. Spray on leaves. 3. Spraying on stubs after cutting is not going to be very effective although I will paint the stump of a tree I don't want sprouting with pure Round UP. Don't know if that works for sure but it makes me feel better. 4. After spraying WAIT. Minimum of 10 days. That is abotu the earliest that any damage will be seen and not unusual for 2 weeks. Most of the complaints "roundup doesn't work" is because people don't wait _for_ it to work. The newer products commonly also contain stuff that will make the leaves wilt. That is to satisfy the "it doesn't work" brigade and is probably cutting the effectiveness of the glypsophate somewhat. Harry K |
#21
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Elmo wrote:
On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? Same reason your fingers get all white and wrinkly when you soak them in water...transpiration isn't the only process goin' on. Moisture on the leaves is more accessible, I suppose, so it crosses cell membranes more quickly than the moisture coming from the roots. The chemicals in herbicides might do so more quickly... |
#22
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On Apr 26, 8:12�am, "
wrote: Elmo wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask .... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate .... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? Same reason your fingers get all white and wrinkly when you soak them in water...transpiration isn't the only process goin' on. �Moisture on the leaves is more accessible, I suppose, so it crosses cell membranes more quickly than the moisture coming from the roots. �The chemicals in herbicides might do so more quickly...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Miracle grow fertilizer advertises it feeds thru the roots and leaves. All herbicides say on the label dont mix. But I can assure you 50% roundup 50% poision ivy KILLS poision ivy 100% effectively. It will look BAD within hours ![]() |
#23
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On Apr 26, 8:18*am, " wrote:
On Apr 26, 8:12 am, " wrote: Elmo wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 17:06:15 +0000 (UTC), Elmo wrote: Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask .... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? This journal article implies only the leaves can uptake the glyphosate ... both the underside and the upper side ... but HOW do they do that? http://www.jstor.org/pss/4043711 What is the mechanism of uptake? Bear in mind, leaves act like a child drinks from a straw ... i.e., water transpires OUT causing a vacuum which brings water and nutrients in from the ROOTS ... but glyphosate isn't applied to the roots ... it's applied to the leaves. It's all very confusing ... if the leaves are transpiring OUTWARD, why would they suck in the wet glyphosate? What's the mechanism to suck INWARD water from the leaf? Same reason your fingers get all white and wrinkly when you soak them in water...transpiration isn't the only process goin' on. Moisture on the leaves is more accessible, I suppose, so it crosses cell membranes more quickly than the moisture coming from the roots. The chemicals in herbicides might do so more quickly...- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Miracle grow fertilizer advertises it feeds thru the roots and leaves. All herbicides say on the label dont mix. But I can assure you 50% roundup 50% poision ivy KILLS poision ivy 100% effectively. It will look BAD within hours ![]() - Show quoted text - Couple of points to agree with and add. First, while Roundup can be used to kill poison ivy, it's not the best choice. Look for products labeled as brush killer. Another important factor is some of the products available will not only kill existing vegetation, but also prevent anything growing back for 4-6 months. Second, if you use Roundup a lot, buying it at the big box stores or local garden center is a big mistake. The absolute most expensive choice is buying it pre-mixed. But even the concentrated mixes are very expensive compared to what you can find online. A few years back, I bought 2.5 gallons of Razor, which is glyphosate, same main ingredient as Roundup, about 50% strength, for maybe $90 online. You'd have spent several times that buying Roundup in any form at the usual shops. None of the places I looked have even the concentrate at anywhere near 50%. |
#24
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#25
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On Apr 25, 8:46*pm, Harry K wrote:
On Apr 25, 6:51*pm, ransley wrote: On Apr 25, 4:31*pm, Elmo dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied- Address.invalid wrote: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 11:52:24 -0700 (PDT), ransley wrote: dont the roundup instructions state to spray leaves, then it must be left to do its jobs which takes maybe weeks But what is the mechanism that makes leaves "intake" (absorb, adsorb, injest, osmosis, etc.) the poison. Why would a leaf, which is an excretion organ of the plant for liquids (transpiration) and gases (outgassing) ... why would that outgassing leaf INTAKE the poison? The water comes up the roots and out the leaves. Why would the leaves intake the liquid poison? They also take in, they breath so poison enters through the leaf and affects the whole plant root and all. I can't answer _why_ they take it in, just accept the _fact_ that they do. BUT: *Quit wasting your roundup - it works if applied properly. 1. On green growing things ONLY. *Spray on the ground is a waste and does nothing. 2. Spray on leaves. 3. Spraying on stubs after cutting is not going to be very effective although I will paint the stump of a tree I don't want sprouting with pure Round UP. *Don't know if that works for sure but it makes me feel better. 4. *After spraying WAIT. *Minimum of 10 days. *That is abotu the earliest that any damage will be seen and not unusual for 2 weeks. Most of the complaints "roundup doesn't work" is because people don't wait _for_ it to work. *The newer products commonly also contain stuff that will make the leaves wilt. *That is to satisfy the "it doesn't work" brigade and is probably cutting the effectiveness of the glypsophate somewhat. Harry K- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Sorry, grabbed the wrong post. Meant for Elmo. Harry K |
#26
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Elmo wrote:
How does weed killer get INTO the plant (leaves? roots? stem? mechanism?) After cutting a 500-yard long path through thick poison oak, I'm now applying huge amounts of glyphosate-based Roundup weed killer to kill remaining emergent plants left behind after the battle. These constant skirmishes are depleting my Roundup, gallon by expensive gallon (bought in concentrated bulk from Costco). I'm spraying the stems, the ground, and the leaves ... but ... I wonder ... what is the mechanism that allows UPTAKE of the glyphosate? I looked up how weed killers kill, and can easily ascertain that glyphosates mimick the natural EPSP Synthase needed as a catlyst for the plant to create proteins ... but nothing I've found so far tells me how the glyphosate is ABSORBED into the plant and WHERE it is best applied (leaves?, stem?, roots?). Mostly, I'm left with huge tangles of poison-oak stems ... so I ask ... WHERE does weed killer get INTO the plant and how? The label will give you the simplest answer. Bear in mind that herbicides have different modes of action. Pre-emergents, used for crab grass-type weeds (atrazine, etc.) are taken up by roots. Timing is critical. Broadleaf herbicides, like Weed B Gone, are taken in through the leaves. It's been a while, but Weed B Gone worked wonders on the weeds in our southern lawn. There are lots of combinations and mixtures sold these days, and a lot of overuse because people don't maintain lawns properly or apply chemicals properly. The instructions for WBG are important....weeds must be actively growing, don't apply if rain expected, etc. When we used it on our lawn, we fertilized a couple of weeks in advance so everything was growing and avoided using it during hottest weather when grass is stressed. With tough weeds, it is easier and safer to cut the plant down, wait for new growth to appear and then use Roundup or similar vegetation killer. One especially nasty weed is asparagus fern...one of many house plants that idiots like to plant outdoors...that is invasive in Florida. It has loads of berries and huge, tuberous roots that make it impossible to dig up when it takes root in hedges. I crawled around under our hedges, cut the asparagus fern and ivy to the ground, waited until they had some new growth and sprayed with Roundup. Using this method, you don't hit the desirable plants and you don't need to use much Roundup. Logic tells one that a plant can't thrive without leaves and if you cover all of it's leaves with suitable herbicide, it will be effective. Some tougher plants, especially stuff with waxy leaves like ivy, are more susceptible this way because the new growth is more tender but might require another application. |
#27
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In ,
Elmo typed: On Sun, 25 Apr 2010 13:26:53 -0500, [SMF] wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glyphosate "It is absorbed through foliage and translocated to growing points." But, WHY does a plant absorb the poison when the plant normally doens't absorb water from its leaves. IIRC, a plant absorbs water from the roots and transpires that water out the leaves so that nutrients flow up and sugars manufactured by the leaf flow down, with oxygen given off as a waste byproduct. What I don't understand, if we can give a leaf a personality, is why the leaf bothers to absorb the wet chemical. What is that mechanism that makes the leaf want to absorb the poison. Someone said osmosis, which might be right ... in that the concentration of the glyphosate is greater on the outside of the leaf than on the inside and the cell membranes allow the stuff through ... maybe it's that simple. Maybe not. That's why I'm asking. Reading the labels on the containers almost always tells you the answers you're looking for. Then if needed, go to Google with the terms you now gained as helpers for the search. There is no single answer as different products work in different ways and with different chemicals. |
#29
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On Apr 27, 12:21�am, "JimT" wrote:
"ktos" wrote in message ... Robert Neville wrote in : wrote: Second, if you use Roundup a lot, buying it at the big box stores or local garden center is a big mistake. � The absolute most expensive choice is buying it pre-mixed. � But even the concentrated mixes are very expensive compared to what you can find online. � A few years back, I bought 2.5 gallons of Razor, which is glyphosate, same main ingredient as Roundup, about 50% strength, �for maybe $90 online. You'd have spent several times that buying Roundup in any form at the usual shops. �None of the places I looked have even the concentrate at anywhere near 50%. I agree. Best I've found retail is at Walmart. 41% solution, 32 ounces, $15. I suspect a tractor supply, coop or feed store would be better. Walmart is too cheap to pay their workers equally. I bet they're cheap and water down their product,too. I've seen them doing it.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Well my 50/50 mix would of killed the poision ivy DEAD in the time this has been discused............ |
#30
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"ktos" wrote in message
... Robert Neville wrote in : wrote: Second, if you use Roundup a lot, buying it at the big box stores or local garden center is a big mistake. The absolute most expensive choice is buying it pre-mixed. But even the concentrated mixes are very expensive compared to what you can find online. A few years back, I bought 2.5 gallons of Razor, which is glyphosate, same main ingredient as Roundup, about 50% strength, for maybe $90 online. You'd have spent several times that buying Roundup in any form at the usual shops. None of the places I looked have even the concentrate at anywhere near 50%. I agree. Best I've found retail is at Walmart. 41% solution, 32 ounces, $15. I suspect a tractor supply, coop or feed store would be better. Walmart is too cheap to pay their workers equally. I bet they're cheap and water down their product,too. I see you suffer from WDS (Wal-Mart Derangement Syndrome) and quite possibly an idiot as well...I suspect both....Crawl back under your bridge troll.... |
#31
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"JimT" wrote in message
... "ktos" wrote in message ... Robert Neville wrote in : wrote: Second, if you use Roundup a lot, buying it at the big box stores or local garden center is a big mistake. The absolute most expensive choice is buying it pre-mixed. But even the concentrated mixes are very expensive compared to what you can find online. A few years back, I bought 2.5 gallons of Razor, which is glyphosate, same main ingredient as Roundup, about 50% strength, for maybe $90 online. You'd have spent several times that buying Roundup in any form at the usual shops. None of the places I looked have even the concentrate at anywhere near 50%. I agree. Best I've found retail is at Walmart. 41% solution, 32 ounces, $15. I suspect a tractor supply, coop or feed store would be better. Walmart is too cheap to pay their workers equally. I bet they're cheap and water down their product,too. I've seen them doing it. I bet you see alot of things in your fantasy world...UFO's and bigfoot too I bet...LOL... |
#32
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On Apr 26, 9:55 am, wrote:
On Mon, 26 Apr 2010 07:48:28 -0600, Robert Neville wrote: wrote: Second, if you use Roundup a lot, buying it at the big box stores or local garden center is a big mistake. The absolute most expensive choice is buying it pre-mixed. But even the concentrated mixes are very expensive compared to what you can find online. A few years back, I bought 2.5 gallons of Razor, which is glyphosate, same main ingredient as Roundup, about 50% strength, for maybe $90 online. You'd have spent several times that buying Roundup in any form at the usual shops. None of the places I looked have even the concentrate at anywhere near 50%. I agree. Best I've found retail is at Walmart. 41% solution, 32 ounces, $15. I suspect a tractor supply, coop or feed store would be better. Home Depot has 50% Roundup for $97 a gallon. Razor Pro is only 41% glyphosate. At the time I was buying it, which was probably 6 years ago, HD didn't have anything competitive in the local stores. Out of curiousity, next time I'm in the store here, I'll check and see what they have. Online they only have the super-concentrate, 50%, in half gallon for $65. But even that could be a good choice, depending on how much you use, etc. The real point is to find it highly concentrated and figure out how much glyphosate you are getting for your dollar. Unless you only have two weeds to kill, buying the ready mix stuff is the worst deal ever. |
#33
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Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.chemistry
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replying to norminn, Eric wrote:
Actually the reason your fingers get wrinkly, etc. is not a biological response but a neurological one. If an anaesthetic is applied to your hand where you can't feel the wet of the water, your fingers don't wrinkle. -- for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...st-438689-.htm |
#34
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On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 11:44:06 PM UTC-5, Eric wrote:
replying to norminn, Eric wrote: Actually the reason your fingers get wrinkly, etc. is not a biological response but a neurological one. If an anaesthetic is applied to your hand where you can't feel the wet of the water, your fingers don't wrinkle. -- You're too late. 8 years ago norminn turned into one giant wrinkle after coming into contact with weed killer. Doctors were unable to save norminn life and no weeds will ever grow around norminn's gravesite. o_O [8~{} Uncle Sad Monster |
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