wrote
Officially called the Volkswagen Automatic Stickshift, this
transmission was a three speed manual transmission connected to a
vacuum-operated automatic clutch. When the driver put their hand on
the gearshift the clutch would disengage by a 12volt solenoid
operating the vacuum clutch, allowing shifting between gears, once
they removed their hand the clutch would re-engage automatically. The
transmission was also equipped with a torque converter, allowing the
car to idle in gear, like an automatic. This transmission was first
available on the 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, and was made available on the
Karmann Ghia in 1969. VW dropped the transmission option altogether in
1976.

I've both driven and worked on them.

Along the same lines, the Smart (at least the Europe versions) have a manual
transmission that shifts itself like an automatic. You let your foot off
the gas and it disengages the clutch and sifts. The shifting is slow
though, and took some getting used to the power lag. I was driving a
ForFour and got 42 mpg over 1200 miles

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:04:45 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:

wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? Prove it.

Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without me. But I
think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the quotes turns
up quite a bit of stuff. Much of it mirrors the controversy here. There are
many, many threads and forums that deteriorate the way this one has. You've got
your LFB folks saying "it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you
LFB folks are crazy, stupid, or reckless. Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the issue:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may...os/hy-wheels17

It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the accelerator to
the brake is about 0.2 second". That is about a car length advantage at 60 mph
if the LFB driver is covering the pedal. So it is not nearly 50 feet and is
only there if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie said the
company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right foot can be used
for braking, but the design is optimized for one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have never
evaluated." and "In California, the Department of Motor Vehicles, which decides
who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the matter. "


One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this as a
failure point. The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide that says you
"should" brake with the right foot. I would think it would say "must" if it was
a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. I'm starting to qualify as an
older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to them.

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. Link please.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney says LFB is
the preferred method.

http://tinyurl.com/DanGurney

It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. A few pages up from the
link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking for sanctions
against Toyota and Nissan because they are importing 100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind of fun.
LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught to me in my
emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track handling techniques do
apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of venom it
attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post avoid the venom. I
don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away since.

-- Doug


These thread are always the same. They go like this.


1 - Someone will post a comment about something and mention in passing
that they LFB and make no other claim or say whether it's good or bad.

2 - someone else will feel compelled to say that the first poster is
incredibly stupid for using their left foot and are endangering
everyone else on the road blah blah blah.

3 - the original poster or someone else will say that there is not a
thing wrong with LFB and present reasons why they feel it's as good or
better.

2 - the anti-LFB faction will come unglued and start attacking the
people who choose to LFB.

It's as predictable as the rising sun.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:52 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? Prove it.

Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without
me. But I think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the
quotes turns up quite a bit of stuff. Much of it mirrors the
controversy here. There are many, many threads and forums that
deteriorate the way this one has. You've got your LFB folks saying
"it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you LFB folks are
crazy, stupid, or reckless. Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the
issue:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may...os/hy-wheels17

It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the
accelerator to the brake is about 0.2 second". That is about a car
length advantage at 60 mph if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

**IF** the driver is "covering the pedal".
in an -emergency-,they probably will not be covering the pedal.

So it is not nearly 50 feet and is only there if the LFB driver is
covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie
said the company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right
foot can be used for braking, but the design is optimized for
one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have
never evaluated." and "In California, the Department of Motor
Vehicles, which decides who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the
matter. "


One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in
NJ if you use left foot braking.

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this
as a failure point. The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide
that says you "should" brake with the right foot. I would think it
would say "must" if it was a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. I'm starting to
qualify as an older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to
them.

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. Link please.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney
says LFB is the preferred method.

http://tinyurl.com/DanGurney

It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. A few pages up
from the link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking
for sanctions against Toyota and Nissan because they are importing
100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind
of fun. LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught
to me in my emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track
handling techniques do apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of
venom it attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post
avoid the venom. I don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away
since.

-- Doug


LFB is the primary cause of riding the brakes.

Cite?

If a driver has their braking foot on the gas pedal,it cannot be riding the
brakes.
I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know the
driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.


Funny but I NEVER see brake lights flickering like that. Probably not
once in a year. I think you are making it up.

One important thing here;



IMO,the majority of LFB drivers are NOT trained drivers,they're just poorly
trained drivers. The good ones are the exception and not the rule.
Thus it's a bad practice.


Your sentence starting with IMO makes zero sense. Since you are making
up the nonsense about all the flickering brake lights and we know from
actual experience that there is no actual problem with people riding
their brakes there therefore is no problem with people, poorly
trained or otherwise, using their left foot.

No offense meant.


How nice of you to call everyone who holds an opinion different then
yours stupid and then claim you mean no offense. You are quite
offensive. No offense meant.

Besides,doesn't it make sense to drive the same manner no matter what type
of car you're driving? Consistency.


Really? So having some cars with 3 speed manuals, some with 4 speeds,
some with 5 speeds, some with 6 speeds and many with different shift
patterns for first and reverse must be a HUGE problem since it's NOT
consistent from car to car and surely that's going to create major
confusion for drivers. And gosh, what about the inconsistency of some
cars having the shifter on the steering column and some on teh
console. How will the world ever survive with all the inconsistency
drivers have to contend with. My my, I'm feeling faint, get the
smelling salts, I having the vapors it's all just too too much.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:27*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:39:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 11:13*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:25*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:44*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. *I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. *In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. *IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. *Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? *Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? *Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. *Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? *

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. *Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. *If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. *Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. *I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. *It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? *So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K

I don't know what you consider a long period. *I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. * If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So in an emergency you LFB is useless as it gains nothing. *And in
traffic just adding a few feet following distance avoids the _need_
for it. * You make an extremely poor case.

Harry K

Depends on the emergency. *If it's one I anticipated *might* happen
and it does, I gain 44 feet. *If it's not anticipated I'm no worse off
then anyone else. *So on average I'm better off. *It's not a "few
extra feet" I'm gaining, it's nearly 50 feet, that's about 3 car
lengths.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Prove it.


I've explained it about 6 times. If you haven't got it figured it out
by now there's nothing more I can do for you. Any further lessons you
will have to pay for at my usual hourly rate, which at $50 is a
bargain.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==


Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:10:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:45:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
Your driving is NOT defensive driving, jt is "reactionary" driving,
and I would not call it GOOD driving.

As for "can't drive" I've driven competetively as well as "civily" for
the better part of 45 years.


If you are unable to use BOTH feet when you drive without getting
confused then you have some issues that are limiting. And the
solution for people like you certainly is that you should only use
your right foot. If the day comes when I can no longer use both my
feet without getting confused I will downgrade to a simpler driving
style too. It's just like when your eyesight deteriorates, you
compensate by driving slower, leaving bigger gaps, wanting DRLs, only
driving in the daytime, etc. I guess I should have been more
sensitive to the limitations you old people have to deal with; I
suppose that's one of the reasons you get so cranky and riled up over
something as trivial as which foot people use to apply the brakes.

On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:





On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. "



Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. Do you disagree? As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. I personally don't know a single one. I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

Jim Yanik wrote:

**IF** the driver is "covering the pedal".
in an -emergency-,they probably will not be covering the pedal.

There are lots of kinds of emergencies. Some are the sudden "Oh, my god" type.
Yes, they most likely won't be covering the pedal. There is the "This could get
ugly" type and they might.

The flip side is what I tell teenagers when they say they are safer drivers
because they've got better reaction times. "If you need reaction time to save
yourself, you screwed up some time earlier".

LFB is the primary cause of riding the brakes.
If a driver has their braking foot on the gas pedal,it cannot be riding the
brakes.
I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know the
driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.

I suspect, but can't verify, that LFB reduces the incidence of unintended
acceleration due to driver error. So you pays your money and takes your
chances.

One important thing here;
IMO,the majority of LFB drivers are NOT trained drivers,they're just poorly
trained drivers. The good ones are the exception and not the rule.
Thus it's a bad practice.

I doubt there is any correlation between training and LFB/RFB. Obviously from
this discussion, some of the best trained drivers LFB. But the simple fact is
nearly all drivers are poorly trained, especially when it comes to car handling.

Besides,doesn't it make sense to drive the same manner no matter what type
of car you're driving? Consistency.

As folks have mentioned, it is easy to use your feet differently in different
contexts. You don't get confused about driving vs. walking vs. flying an
airplane or riding a motorcycle. I've always been mildly surprised that there
is enough difference in context between driving a stick vs. an automatic that I
*never* get confused. I mean never in 40 years of going back and forth. YMMV.

I've found the discussion interesting. At least the civil parts of it. I've
learned that the reaction time benefits are less than I've thought. I've
decided that if I were running a driving school for new drivers, I'd teach RFB.
I've also decided that I am going to continue to LFB my automatics. So if you
see a brown '95 Ford Explorer in Dallas, watch out.

-- Doug

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

Jim Yanik wrote:

**IF** the driver is "covering the pedal".
in an -emergency-,they probably will not be covering the pedal.

There are lots of kinds of emergencies. Some are the sudden "Oh, my
god" type. Yes, they most likely won't be covering the pedal. There
is the "This could get ugly" type and they might.

then that's not exactly an "emergency",but an expected possibility.

The flip side is what I tell teenagers when they say they are safer
drivers because they've got better reaction times. "If you need
reaction time to save yourself, you screwed up some time earlier".

OTOH,reaction time is stil necessary. I see many drivers who lack it.
Mine has saved at least two dogs. 8-)


LFB is the primary cause of riding the brakes.
If a driver has their braking foot on the gas pedal,it cannot be
riding the brakes.
I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know
the driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.

I suspect, but can't verify, that LFB reduces the incidence of
unintended acceleration due to driver error. So you pays your money
and takes your chances.

I respectfully disagree.

One important thing here;
IMO,the majority of LFB drivers are NOT trained drivers,they're just
poorly trained drivers. The good ones are the exception and not the
rule. Thus it's a bad practice.

I doubt there is any correlation between training and LFB/RFB.

you brought it up in an earlier post,about you having training.

Obviously from this discussion, some of the best trained drivers LFB.
But the simple fact is nearly all drivers are poorly trained,
especially when it comes to car handling.

Besides,doesn't it make sense to drive the same manner no matter what
type of car you're driving? Consistency.

As folks have mentioned, it is easy to use your feet differently in
different contexts.

easy for you to SAY it....

You don't get confused about driving vs. walking
vs. flying an airplane or riding a motorcycle.

Completely different tasks.Not relevant.

I've always been
mildly surprised that there is enough difference in context between
driving a stick vs. an automatic that I *never* get confused. I mean
never in 40 years of going back and forth. YMMV.

I've found the discussion interesting. At least the civil parts of
it. I've learned that the reaction time benefits are less than I've
thought. I've decided that if I were running a driving school for new
drivers, I'd teach RFB. I've also decided that I am going to continue
to LFB my automatics. So if you see a brown '95 Ford Explorer in
Dallas, watch out.

-- Doug



well,good driving,Doug.


--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:52 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know
the driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.


Funny but I NEVER see brake lights flickering like that.

Ah,because Ashton doesn't see it,it must not happen....

Probably not
once in a year. I think you are making it up.

I see it fairly often. Or worse, a car accelerating away from a light
with the brake lights on. My wife hears me mutter "It's a brake pedal,
not a foot rest." or "How many miles do you get to the set of pads?".
It is even mentioned in the previously cited Car Talk article:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

So be nice. He's not making it up.

-- Doug


I don't need to "make up" stuff. I just mention what I observe.
that's how I base my opinions,on 40 years of observed behavior.
I can't help it if other people are not observant,or have memory problems.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08Â*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. Â*Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ Â*but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. Â*Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. Â*It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. Â*LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot Â*while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.


Ashton, I've driven STANDARD SHIFT cars with left foot braking in
competition - I know what is involved and my feet work well together
when it is done for that purpose. The brain needs to be well engaged
when doing it, and it has NOTHING to do with reaction time and
stopping.

I've also left foot braked front drive automatic cars for the same
purpose. On low powered automatics it is not as effective, and with
ABS it doesn't work at all. The practice of jabbing the brake with the
left foot to hang out the rear on a front drive car in competition
started with Saab drivers, where the hand brake acting on the FRONT
wheels of the front drive car, could not be used to break the rear end
loose to slide it through the corners. Then guys like Colin found it
was easier to do it even on cars with rear hand brakes because it
freed up one hand.

Left foot braking an automatic car on the street is a poor and
dangerous practice.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:17:37 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:32:36 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:07:03 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.


- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

Really? Then why did you have to lower revs to get it into the next
higher gear?

Do a google or bing search for "Saxomat" for more information.

You must be talking about a different system. I'm talking the
"autostick"
Officially called the Volkswagen Automatic Stickshift, this
transmission was a three speed manual transmission connected to a
vacuum-operated automatic clutch. When the driver put their hand on
the gearshift the clutch would disengage by a 12volt solenoid
operating the vacuum clutch, allowing shifting between gears, once
they removed their hand the clutch would re-engage automatically. The
transmission was also equipped with a torque converter, allowing the
car to idle in gear, like an automatic. This transmission was first
available on the 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, and was made available on the
Karmann Ghia in 1969. VW dropped the transmission option altogether in
1976.

I've both driven and worked on them.



I even gave you the exact NAME of the system I was talking about, so
you could look it up.
Except the Saxomat was never sold on a VW in North America.
As far as I know it was not sold in ANYTHING in North America
We didn't get Borgward, Goliath, Trabant, DKW, GLAS, NSU, and Wartburg
over here, and no '61-66 1800 Fiats or Saab 93s with "automatic"
transmissions.

The true Saxomat did have an centrifical clutch.
The VW Autostick as sold in North America between roughly 1965 and
1968 did NOT.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:28:37 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:15:53 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:27:48 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 6:07Â*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:26 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. Â*The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.

- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

Really? Then why did you have to lower revs to get it into the next
higher gear?

Do a google or bing search for "Saxomat" for more information.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Non-synchro box at a guess.

Harry K

Bad guess. It had a centrifical cluych that needed to be disengaged.


Nope. No centrigical clutch. A vacuum operated clutch, with the
vacuum controlled by a solenoid valve operated by touching the
gearshift lever. It also had a torque converter, like an automatic,
that allowed the engine to idle in gear, and even pull away
(sluggishly) in second gear.

WRONG. 100% W-R-O-N-G

I even gave you the exact name (Saxomat) of the system so you could
go and read about it for yourself. You really are a complete dullard,
Clare.
I said you were talking about a different system. SAXOMAT was NEVER
installed on a VW destined for North America. PERIOD.

So YOU are 100% wrong.
Every "semi-automatic" VW in North America was an "auto-stick" which
used a solenoid controlled vacuum operated clutch and a fluid torque
converter.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:49:17 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08Â*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. Â*Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ Â*but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. Â*Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. Â*It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. Â*LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot Â*while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.

I suspect that Clare's recreation time consists of a lot of drinking
while perusing usenet looking for an argument. He's a expert on just
about every subject that comes up. Talk about cars, he's beeen a car
mechanic for 50 years. Talk about lawnmowers - 50 years at that. Same
with computers. I don't know how he has time for drinking and usenet
while working 7 full time jobs.


Good guess Salty - but I don't drink.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:24:42 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:17:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:49:17 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08Â*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. Â*Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ Â*but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. Â*Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. Â*It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. Â*LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot Â*while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.

I suspect that Clare's recreation time consists of a lot of drinking
while perusing usenet looking for an argument. He's a expert on just
about every subject that comes up. Talk about cars, he's beeen a car
mechanic for 50 years. Talk about lawnmowers - 50 years at that. Same
with computers. I don't know how he has time for drinking and usenet
while working 7 full time jobs.


Good guess Salty - but I don't drink.

Well, then, by any chance were your parents first cousins?
Third, twice removed.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:14:17 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

Ashton Crusher wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 22:25:52 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know
the driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.


Funny but I NEVER see brake lights flickering like that.

Ah,because Ashton doesn't see it,it must not happen....


Thanks for falling into my trap. In the same way, just because YOU
can't successfully LFB you think it can't be done, must not happen.
See how that works.


Probably not
once in a year. I think you are making it up.

I see it fairly often. Or worse, a car accelerating away from a light
with the brake lights on. My wife hears me mutter "It's a brake pedal,
not a foot rest." or "How many miles do you get to the set of pads?".
It is even mentioned in the previously cited Car Talk article:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

So be nice. He's not making it up.


Of course he's not. I purposely baited you antiLFBers to show you how
silly you are when you claim ANYONE who LFBs is some dangerous driver.
The worst that can be said is that there aer some people who LFB who
aren't very good at it. Same can be said about RFB, I'm sure plenty
of them have lots of accidents that could have been avoided had they
learned to LFB.

-- Doug


I don't need to "make up" stuff. I just mention what I observe.
that's how I base my opinions,on 40 years of observed behavior.
I can't help it if other people are not observant,or have memory problems.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:04:15 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 20, 1:10*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:04:45 -0500, Douglas Johnson





wrote:
wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? *Prove it.

Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without me. *But I
think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the quotes turns
up quite a bit of stuff. *Much of it mirrors the controversy here. *There are
many, many threads and forums that deteriorate the way this one has. *You've got
your LFB folks saying "it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you
LFB folks are crazy, stupid, or reckless. *Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the issue:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may...os/hy-wheels17

It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the accelerator to
the brake is about 0.2 second". *That is about a car length advantage at 60 mph
if the LFB driver is covering the pedal. *So it is not nearly 50 feet and is
only there if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie said the
company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right foot can be used
for braking, but the design is optimized for one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have never
evaluated." *and "In California, the Department of Motor Vehicles, which decides
who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the matter. "

One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this as a
failure point. *The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide that says you
"should" brake with the right foot. *I would think it would say "must" if it was
a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. *I'm starting to qualify as an
older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to them.

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. * *Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. * Link please.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney says LFB is
the preferred method. *

http://tinyurl.com/DanGurney

It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. *A few pages up from the
link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking for sanctions
against Toyota and Nissan because they are *importing 100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. * It's just kind of fun.
LFB also common on the race track. *That's why it was taught to me in my
emergency vehicle street driving course. *Some race track handling techniques do
apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of venom it
attracted. *I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post avoid the venom. *I
don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away since.

-- Doug

These thread are always the same. * They go like this.

1 - Someone will post a comment about something and mention in passing
that they LFB and make no other claim or say whether it's good or bad.

2 - someone else will feel compelled to say that the first poster is
incredibly stupid for using their left foot and are endangering
everyone else on the road blah blah blah.

3 - the original poster or someone else will say that there is not a
thing wrong with LFB and present reasons why they feel it's as good or
better.

2 - the anti-LFB faction will come unglued and start attacking the
people who choose to LFB. *

It's as predictable as the rising sun.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

and the LFB will ignore all the reasons _not_ to do it.

Harry K


The LFB has heard them all before and knows they are nonsense for
HIM/HER. If YOU are not capable of LFB then of course you should not
do it. It's similar to how they used to teach in drivers ed that SAFE
drivers ALWAYS had their hands at 10 and 2 on the steering wheel.
That's just they way it ALWAYS was. EVERYONE knew you HAD to keep
your hands there to be SAFE. Along comes airbags and suddenly 9 and 3
are just fine. The truth is, it never mattered where you put your
hands within reason and everyone needed to find their own personal
sweet spot. Just like any other aspect of driving there are many ways
to accomplish the same tasks. Some ways are better then others but
not necessarily for everyone.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:54:46 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.


Ashton, I've driven STANDARD SHIFT cars with left foot braking in
competition - I know what is involved and my feet work well together
when it is done for that purpose. The brain needs to be well engaged
when doing it, and it has NOTHING to do with reaction time and
stopping.

I've also left foot braked front drive automatic cars for the same
purpose. On low powered automatics it is not as effective, and with
ABS it doesn't work at all. The practice of jabbing the brake with the
left foot to hang out the rear on a front drive car in competition
started with Saab drivers, where the hand brake acting on the FRONT
wheels of the front drive car, could not be used to break the rear end
loose to slide it through the corners. Then guys like Colin found it
was easier to do it even on cars with rear hand brakes because it
freed up one hand.

Left foot braking an automatic car on the street is a poor and
dangerous practice.


You can make unsupported statements of OPINON as many times as you
want but it doesn't turn it into anything other then YOUR opinion. LFB
on the street is a very safe and very effect way to engage in
defensive driving and as a side benefit it allows for smoother driving
if you are interested in the comfort of your passengers. It does
require a higher level of training and skill and consequently not many
people do it. That is not simply opinion, the PHYSICS of how it is
applied, by the info posted here by others, shows at a minimum there
is a gain of 0.2 seconds (equivalent to nearly 20 feet at 60 mph, a
common freeway speed) if the only thing you do is drive EXACTLY like a
RFB except that you move your left foot into position half a second
sooner then you/they would have moved your/their right foot into
position. That is the MINIMUM gain from LFB and has nothing to do
with MY opinion or anyone else's, it's just a FACT.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:





On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. "



Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. Do you disagree? As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. I personally don't know a single one. I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.


It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 08:50:55 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:46:55 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:10:33 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:45:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
Your driving is NOT defensive driving, jt is "reactionary" driving,
and I would not call it GOOD driving.

As for "can't drive" I've driven competetively as well as "civily" for
the better part of 45 years.


If you are unable to use BOTH feet when you drive without getting
confused then you have some issues that are limiting. And the
solution for people like you certainly is that you should only use
your right foot. If the day comes when I can no longer use both my
feet without getting confused I will downgrade to a simpler driving
style too. It's just like when your eyesight deteriorates, you
compensate by driving slower, leaving bigger gaps, wanting DRLs, only
driving in the daytime, etc. I guess I should have been more
sensitive to the limitations you old people have to deal with; I
suppose that's one of the reasons you get so cranky and riled up over
something as trivial as which foot people use to apply the brakes.

Do you recommend walking with your left foot, or right foot?


You need to ask Harry and Clare, I use both feet. Most likely they
only use their right and hop since using two feet to walk would
confuse them.

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 07:12:36 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 20, 1:46*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:10:33 -0400, wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:45:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
*Your driving is NOT defensive driving, jt is "reactionary" driving,
and I would not call it GOOD driving.

As for "can't drive" I've driven competetively as well as "civily" for
the better part of 45 years.

If you are unable to use BOTH feet when you drive without getting
confused then you have some issues that are limiting. *And the
solution for people like you certainly is that you should only use
your right foot. *If the day comes when I can no longer use both my
feet without getting confused I will downgrade to a simpler driving
style too. *It's just like when your eyesight deteriorates, you
compensate by driving slower, leaving bigger gaps, wanting DRLs, only
driving in the daytime, etc. *I guess I should have been more
sensitive to the limitations you old people have to deal with; I
suppose that's one of the reasons you get so cranky and riled up over
something as trivial as which foot people use to apply the brakes.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So instead of using logic (yours isn't btw) you resort to insults.
Got it. When you are loosing, insult the oponent.

Harry K


Yeah, like all the posts you anti's have been making about how I'm a
horrendous danger on the highways and how I'll die in a fiery crash
aren't insults. Get real you antiLFBer hypocrite.

"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:14:17 -0500, Jim Yanik


Thanks for falling into my trap. In the same way, just because YOU
can't successfully LFB you think it can't be done, must not happen.
See how that works.

Many states will FLUNK YOU if you LFB during a driving test, as well they
should. See how that works?

On Mar 21, 5:36*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:54:46 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal..- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead? *

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. *LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. *If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. *It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish. *

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you *can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. * At that point, it's available
to brake. *And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. * With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. * *What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. * *Capiche?

That's not correct. *IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. *There's
nothing unsafe about it. *How do I know? *Because I've been doing it
for decades.

And one day it will get you.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. * Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. * If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?

I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. *As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. *I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - *they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. *No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept *flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. *Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. *Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. *For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.

And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. *It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.

Ashton, I've driven STANDARD SHIFT cars with left foot braking in
competition - I know what is involved and my feet work well together
when it is done for that purpose. The brain needs to be well engaged
when doing it, and it has NOTHING to do with reaction time and
stopping.

I've also left foot braked front drive automatic cars for the same
purpose. *On low powered automatics it is not as effective, and with
ABS it doesn't work at all. The practice of jabbing the brake with the
left foot to hang out the rear on a front drive car in competition
started with Saab drivers, where the hand brake acting on the FRONT
wheels of the front drive car, could not be used to break the rear end
loose to slide it through the corners. *Then guys like Colin found it
was easier to do it even on cars with rear hand brakes because it
freed up one hand.

Left foot braking an automatic car on the street is a poor and
dangerous practice.

You can make unsupported statements of OPINON as many times as you
want but it doesn't turn it into anything other then YOUR opinion. LFB
on the street is a very safe and very effect way to engage in
defensive driving and as a side benefit it allows for smoother driving
if you are interested in the comfort of your passengers.


Passenger comfort? Now you're really going into lala land.



*It does
require a higher level of training and skill and consequently not many
people do it. *

I'd say most people don't do it because nobody that I know of was ever
trained that way. People typically take driver ed in high school or
a private driving school. I ridden with countless people over the
years and can't recall a single one of them that was a left foot
braker. Now, if it's so much safer and such a superior technique,
why do you suppose that no driving schools apparently teach it? The
NJ drivers manual recommends right foot braking, which strongly
suggests that at least in this state, it's unlikely it's going to be
taught otherwise.

I failed the NJ driving test decades ago for left foot braking. The
driving test guy asked me where I learned it. I told him my father,
which was actually only partly true. My father did teach me to
drive, but apparently he wasn;t very good at it. I don't recall him
ever telling me which foot to use. I just wound up starting out that
way by chance and he didn't correct me. I quickly switched to right
foot usage and found it easier, more logical and I believe safer,
especially when you also drive stick shifts.



That is not simply opinion, the PHYSICS of how it is
applied, by the info posted here by others, shows at a minimum there
is a gain of 0.2 seconds (equivalent to nearly 20 feet at 60 ...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

First, I don't think anyone has proven that you gain .2 secs. But
even if you assume it's true, it's largely meaningless, because you
have acknowledged that you don't have your foot hoovering most of the
time. I'll bet in reality it's a small percentage of the time. So,
when the unexpected happens, your foot may actually take LONGER to get
there because it's resting further away on the floor. As to starting
the "superior" hoovering procedure when you feel the need for caution,
I have an even better idea. Just slow down right then like the rest
of us and gain not just your alleged 18ft, but as much distance as you
need to be safe. I can picture you in my rear view mirror, tailgating
and unwilling to just increase the seperation, because you don't want
to give up that extra 18 feet or bring alleged discomfort to your
passengers and have great confidence in your alleged superior stopping
ability.

On Mar 21, 3:10*pm, wrote:
On Mar 21, 5:36*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:





On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:54:46 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead? *

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. *LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. *If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. *It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish. *

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you *can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. * At that point, it's available
to brake. *And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. * With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. * *What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. * *Capiche?

That's not correct. *IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. *There's
nothing unsafe about it. *How do I know? *Because I've been doing it
for decades.

And one day it will get you.

Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.

I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. * Find us any online driving reference that recommends it.. * If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?

I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. *As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. *I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - *they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. *No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.

I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept *flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. *Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. *Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. *For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.

And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. *It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.

Ashton, I've driven STANDARD SHIFT cars with left foot braking in
competition - I know what is involved and my feet work well together
when it is done for that purpose. The brain needs to be well engaged
when doing it, and it has NOTHING to do with reaction time and
stopping.

I've also left foot braked front drive automatic cars for the same
purpose. *On low powered automatics it is not as effective, and with
ABS it doesn't work at all. The practice of jabbing the brake with the
left foot to hang out the rear on a front drive car in competition
started with Saab drivers, where the hand brake acting on the FRONT
wheels of the front drive car, could not be used to break the rear end
loose to slide it through the corners. *Then guys like Colin found it
was easier to do it even on cars with rear hand brakes because it
freed up one hand.

Left foot braking an automatic car on the street is a poor and
dangerous practice.

You can make unsupported statements of OPINON as many times as you
want but it doesn't turn it into anything other then YOUR opinion. LFB
on the street is a very safe and very effect way to engage in
defensive driving and as a side benefit it allows for smoother driving
if you are interested in the comfort of your passengers.

Passenger comfort? * Now you're really going into lala land.



*It does
require a

...

read more »- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Well, when he is trying to coordinate two feet doing opposing actions
at the same time I guess Ashton probably does do a lot of jerking.

Harry K

On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 14:36:21 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:54:46 -0400, wrote:

On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 01:32:51 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 23:04:18 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08Â*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. Â*Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ Â*but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. Â*Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. Â*It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. Â*LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot Â*while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.




There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


Your comments make it clear that you either didn't read what I wrote
of don't comprehend it since what I laid out is the very essence of
defensive driving X2.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.


And it's noted that as always, you and the others are completely
unable to explain why you think using two feet when driving a car is
incredibly confusing and will lead to certain death yet you have no
problems at all flying in an airplane being piloted by a motorcycle
rider. It shows just how inconsistent and irrational you people are
on this subject.


Ashton, I've driven STANDARD SHIFT cars with left foot braking in
competition - I know what is involved and my feet work well together
when it is done for that purpose. The brain needs to be well engaged
when doing it, and it has NOTHING to do with reaction time and
stopping.

I've also left foot braked front drive automatic cars for the same
purpose. On low powered automatics it is not as effective, and with
ABS it doesn't work at all. The practice of jabbing the brake with the
left foot to hang out the rear on a front drive car in competition
started with Saab drivers, where the hand brake acting on the FRONT
wheels of the front drive car, could not be used to break the rear end
loose to slide it through the corners. Then guys like Colin found it
was easier to do it even on cars with rear hand brakes because it
freed up one hand.

Left foot braking an automatic car on the street is a poor and
dangerous practice.


You can make unsupported statements of OPINON as many times as you
want but it doesn't turn it into anything other then YOUR opinion. LFB
on the street is a very safe and very effect way to engage in
defensive driving and as a side benefit it allows for smoother driving
if you are interested in the comfort of your passengers. It does
require a higher level of training and skill and consequently not many
people do it. That is not simply opinion, the PHYSICS of how it is
applied, by the info posted here by others, shows at a minimum there
is a gain of 0.2 seconds (equivalent to nearly 20 feet at 60 mph, a
common freeway speed) if the only thing you do is drive EXACTLY like a
RFB except that you move your left foot into position half a second
sooner then you/they would have moved your/their right foot into
position. That is the MINIMUM gain from LFB and has nothing to do
with MY opinion or anyone else's, it's just a FACT.

Keep believing what you want. Doesn't make it true.

BYE BYE!!!

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 17:54:20 -0400, "h"
wrote:


"Ashton Crusher" wrote in message
.. .
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 12:14:17 -0500, Jim Yanik


Thanks for falling into my trap. In the same way, just because YOU
can't successfully LFB you think it can't be done, must not happen.
See how that works.

Many states will FLUNK YOU if you LFB during a driving test, as well they
should. See how that works?


Big deal. Or do you think gvt bureaucrats are ALWAYS correct? I hope
I never see you complain about the gvt doing something wrong.

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

If I'm tailgating then so are you.

On Mar 22, 11:30*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. *If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

If I'm tailgating then so are you.

If you are allowing the same space I am, you don't need your
fictional .2 sec.

Harry K

On Mar 23, 11:04*am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:37:03 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:30*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. *If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

If I'm tailgating then so are you.

If you are allowing the same space I am, you don't need your
fictional .2 sec.

Harry K

...Until a kid runs out from between parked cars directly in front of
you on a busy street.

At which point the whole left foot braking is pretty much a moot
point, because it's chief proponent says he only covers the brake when
he expects to have to stop. Like in moving traffic that is slowing
down. At which point, his latest claims make no sense. He says he
maintains the same safe stopping distance as a single foot braker
would. Yet, when I'm presented with the separation between my car
and those in front decreasing, I just take my foot of the gas and
start applying the brakes. Ashton just starts "hoovering" his left
foot over the brake.

The bottom line is this. In the truly unexpected emergency, the left
foot braker is likely to have his foot on the floor, where it may in
fact take LONGER to get it to the brake than a right foot braker. And
in the case where you anticipate the need to stop, the obvious safe
thing to do is to begin to apply the brakes right then, not start
hoovering.

On Mar 23, 8:04*am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:37:03 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:30*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. *If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

If I'm tailgating then so are you.

If you are allowing the same space I am, you don't need your
fictional .2 sec.

Harry K

...Until a kid runs out from between parked cars directly in front of
you on a busy street.

in which case his lfb won't help as he doesn't have his foot there
"unless I am expecting to use it".

Harry K

On Mar 24, 4:55*am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:40:55 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 23, 8:04*am, wrote:
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 06:37:03 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 22, 11:30*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 21 Mar 2010 21:20:16 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 21, 2:43*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sat, 20 Mar 2010 05:15:20 -0700 (PDT), wrote:
On Mar 20, 4:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 09:41:53 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

Please quote where I have ever said I follow closer then anyone else.
The only "elitist" know-it-all's here are harry and clare who claim to
know what's best for everyone else. *I've just stated my preference,
I've never said I think you or anyone else is a hazard if you don't do
it my way. *But you and harry and clare and a few others keep claiming
ANYONE who LFB is a hazard - you folks are the very epitome of
"elitist" know-it-all's- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What you claimed was this:

"I hold my foot in the air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to
half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. *"

Faced with that same situation, I would simply take my foot off the
gas pedal and start applying the brakes to increase the
separation. * * I think Harry and any other driver concerned with
safety would too. *I think that is what any driving school today would
teach. * Do you disagree? * *As for jerking the passengers back and
forth, I don't know what kind of vehicles you are driving or how you
drive, but seeing a need to increase separation in traffic, I do it
all the time without jerking anyone around.

You choose to focus on one half of the equation, which is the slight
fraction of a second reaction time advantage having your left foot
hoovering in the air over the brake pedal brings. * You completely
ignore the other obvious part, which is doing it your way, you still
have to account for the time it takes your right foot to come off the
gas pedal, the throttle to close, etc. * * *Doing it our way, you are
already slowing down, increasing the separation margin, instead of
hauling ass down the highway maintaining a smaller separation, while
thinking you are safe because you have some stopping distance
advantage. * *That's why I say your methods are unsafe.

You have a paradox in your theory that is insurmountable which others
have pointed out as well. * You admit you only cover the brake when
you think you need the tiny fraction of a second margin you say it
brings. * *Yet, if it is foreseeable, then instead of covering the
brake, the really safe thing to do is simply slow down right then.
And for the true emergency, your left foot is no closer to the brake
pedal than a right foot driver's. *In fact, it may be actually farther
away than a right foot driver's foot that is on the gas pedal.

I also think others who have said the hoovering method can lead to
riding the brakes have a valid point. * I see people on the highway
occasionally with the brake lights flashing on and off for no apparent
rational reason. *Not a lot, but then there aren't a lot of left foot
brakers either. * I personally don't know a single one. * *I would
suspect that when you use the hoovering method, it's easy to start to
just rest that left foot on the brake pedal. * After all, that allows
you to be even safer right? * Then your foot is right there on the
brake most or all of the time.

It's really quite simple. Instead of you making up what I do just
listen to what I do. *I do exactly what you RFBers do EXCEPT I start
my preparation about half a second, sometimes more, before you do by
moving my LEFT foot into position (half a second+ before you would be
moving your right foot off the gas and over the brake). *There's no
difference in following distance compared to you. *There IS a
difference in reaction time however, I have at least as 0.2 second
advantage over you, about 20 feet. *On the freeway that can easily be
the difference between running into someone and not, you would have
run into them, I would not have.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It is called maintaining a safe following distance. *If you would quit
tailgating you wouldn't need that .2 sec.

Harry K

If I'm tailgating then so are you.

If you are allowing the same space I am, you don't need your
fictional .2 sec.

Harry K

...Until a kid runs out from between parked cars directly in front of
you on a busy street.

in which case his lfb won't help as he doesn't have his foot there
"unless I am expecting to use it".

Harry K

Unless of course, he is in the right land in heavy traffic, and is
also anticipating a parked car's door suddenly opening or other
surprises that often happen in a situation such as that.

If one is 'anticipating' something, then you don't need the LFB.
What part of that have you missed?



Apparently, Right foot brakers are so smug that that don't even
anticipate things such as that.

So you don't watch for signs of a car door opening as you drive down a
street? I do. Driver in car that just parked...watch for it. Not
rocket science.

No wonder there are far more crashes
among right foot brakers!

NIce assertion there. Got a cite? ... didn't think so.

Harry K