On Mar 17, 11:20*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc





wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

There seems to be some serious misunderstanding of what left foot
braking is. *You don't just put your foot on the brake pedal, or put
your foot over the pedal, and leave it there for the whole time you
are driving. *You mostly just have it resting on the floor, just like
you would if you used your right foot. *However, when a situation
comes up where you *might* need to brake you get ready to brake by
moving your foot over the pedal, and if you are experienced and
skilled, you might be touching, NOT pressing, the pedal. *You might
hold that position for only a few seconds to half a minute. *In heavy
traffic you might be moving your foot in and out of that position
several times per mile if the traffic situation warrants. *And of
course some of the time you actually apply the brakes. *But you don't
just hover your foot over the pedal till your leg goes numb.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, you have said it over, and over, and over repeatedly to the point
of asininity. Thus far you have made zero progress in showing one
iota of advantage to it and have not refuted any of the rebuttals. The
only possible advantage is that fraction of a second reaction and that
only counts in an emergency - when, per you, you don't even have your
foot near the pedal.

For the record, back in the 60s when there _was_ some push for it, I
practiced it for awhile. Gave it up as I could see no reason for it.

Harry K

On Mar 18, 10:39*am, Harry K wrote:
On Mar 17, 11:13*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:25*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:44*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. *I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. *In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. *IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. *Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? *Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? *Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. *Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? *

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. *Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. *If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. *Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. *I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. *It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? *So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K

I don't know what you consider a long period. *I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. * If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So in an emergency you LFB is useless as it gains nothing. *And in
traffic just adding a few feet following distance avoids the _need_
for it. * You make an extremely poor case.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I agree with Harry. You can't keep a foot hoovering in the air ready
to react at a moments notice. And even then, the tiny fraction of a
second compared to just using your right foot is unlikely to make any
material difference in the outcome. And now we have Ashton joining
the original left foot braker in claiming that "covering" the brake
pedal is a good idea. The example of using it when traffic ahead is
slowing is particularly dumb. Here's my solution.. If traffic up
ahead is slowing and the seperation is becoming too small for the
speed, I move my right foot from the gas pedal and start applying the
brakes to increase the distance, instead of relying on "covering" to
shave a 1/10 of a second off my reaction time.

One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead? There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal. If I anticpate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?

On Mar 18, 10:52*am, Harry K wrote:
On Mar 17, 11:20*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc

wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal.. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

There seems to be some serious misunderstanding of what left foot
braking is. *You don't just put your foot on the brake pedal, or put
your foot over the pedal, and leave it there for the whole time you
are driving. *You mostly just have it resting on the floor, just like
you would if you used your right foot. *However, when a situation
comes up where you *might* need to brake you get ready to brake by
moving your foot over the pedal, and if you are experienced and
skilled, you might be touching, NOT pressing, the pedal. *You might
hold that position for only a few seconds to half a minute. *In heavy
traffic you might be moving your foot in and out of that position
several times per mile if the traffic situation warrants. *And of
course some of the time you actually apply the brakes. *But you don't
just hover your foot over the pedal till your leg goes numb.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, you have said it over, and over, and over repeatedly to the point
of asininity. *Thus far you have made zero progress in showing one
iota of advantage to it and have not refuted any of the rebuttals. The
only possible advantage is that fraction of a second reaction and that
only counts in an emergency - when, per you, you don't even have your
foot near the pedal.

Harry, that advantage doesn't exist either. In the described
situation, you or I would have REMOVED our right foot from the gas
pedal. The way Ashton is operating, while he has his left foot
hoovering, he still has his right foot on the gas. So, when it's
time to stop. doing it our way, the throttle is already closed. His
way, he has to take his right foot off the gas pedal and use the left
one to apply the brakes. I'd say having to release the throttle, the
time it takes for the engine to react, etc. easily negates any tiny
margin of time advantage to the left foot method.

I'm having a hard time understanding the use of the word "safety" in
the context of someone who sees traffic conditions that may require an
imminent stop, yet they are going down the road with one foot holding
the throttle open and the other hoovering over the brake. I'd like
to see any online reference that says that is the safer or correct way
to drive.

On Mar 18, 7:53*am, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:14 am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. *The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K

You've never seen a car with a manual transmission and a clutch pedal?
What color is the sun on your planet?

BTW - my 1941 and 1946 Chevy Pickup trucks had FOUR pedals.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OOPPS!!! misread the post.

And no, the reason for RFB is because it is the most reasonable way to
do it. All the hot air spent trying to defend LFB hasn't accomplished
even a small dent in the reasons _NOT_ to do it.

Harry K

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 16, 10:33Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23Â*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. Â*So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. Â*I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. Â*I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. Â*I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. Â*I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. Â*It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. Â*That's OK. Â*In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, Â*I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? Â*It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. Â*If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. Â*it's the same with
the brakes. Â*As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. Â*If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K
The brake switch for left-foot brakers should be connected to the
horn. "get out of my way -my brakes might not work"

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:13:27 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 16, 10:25Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:





On Mar 16, 8:44Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. Â*I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. Â*In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. Â*IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. Â*Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? Â*Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? Â*Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. Â*Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? Â*

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. Â*Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. Â*If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. Â*Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. Â*I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. Â*It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K


I don't know what you consider a long period. I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.


And if when traffic starts to back up you LIFT your right foot from
the pedal, and get ready to stop, you have the same reduction in
reaction time, PLUS you have started to slow down a bit already,
opening up your "opportunity space".

I know, if you DON'T have to stop, you've added another 0.2 seconds to
the length of your trip. In heavy traffic thos 0.2 seconds all add up
and you end up late for work - or worse yet for supper. Then you end
up with hot toungue and cold shoulder for supper.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:23:43 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:08:02 -0400, "h"
wrote:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.


The right foot is not already there, it's pushing on the gas. That's
why LFB is better, you can be PREPARED to brake before you even let
off the gas. If you don't need to brake nothing's been lost.
Are you the crazy bugger who's always right on my bumper driving
down the highway???
Get your foot OFF the gas before you need to stop.

Sheeesh!!.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:26:36 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:44:53 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

"h" wrote in
:


"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the
air above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they
_will_ have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot
up. Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the
brakes on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those
muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do
you rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like
any other driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the
brakes at any time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready
position, thus the faster reaction time.

Or allowing for confusion and the wrong foot applying pressure to the wrong
pedal.
It also allows pressure to be applied to BOTH pedals at the same time.
(riding the brake;not good for both car and traffic behind it.)

and the reflex HABIT of always using the same foot for the braking task
never gets developed,and in an emergency,confusion can result.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.

No,just on racetracks.
Maybe the "dead pedal" on auto tranny cars should be a deadman's switch;
remove the foot from it and the engine shuts off.


It's interesting that the person, you, who has zero skill at left foot
braking holds themselves out as the expert on what will happen to
people who left foot brake. You are completely wrong, not
surprisingly, since you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Why
don't you talk about something you actually know something about,
assuming there is some such subject.
I sused to left foot brake driving my Dad's rebel because otherwise
kit would stall. Finally convinced him to let ME fix the carb, since
the dealer couldn't get it right.

No more left foot braking.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..


how ridiculous. whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.


And you sound like a hot-dog driver who can't lift his right foot off
the gas and let the vehicle slow down a bit in anticipation of needing
to brake.

You, Ashton Crusher - are a DANGEROUS driver - and an accident just
waiting to happen...

And it WILL happen. Just a questiopn of when and how serious.

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:40:46 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 17, 7:27Â*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"



wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.

Â* If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

==
Exactly.
==


I bet you are worried the Hadron Collider is going to create a black
hole and the earth will get sucked into it.
Nope, the guys operating that thing have some common sense.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

On Mar 18, 12:40*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:05:29 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:



On Mar 17, 7:27*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"

wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.

* If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

==
Exactly.
==

I bet you are worried the Hadron Collider is going to create a black
hole and the earth will get sucked into it.

==
Should THAT happen, I would hope that your "hover" foot would hit the
brake quickly before you got sucked down the hole.
Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
==

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23Â*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. Â*So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. Â*I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. Â*I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. Â*I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. Â*I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. Â*It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. Â*That's OK. Â*In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, Â*I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? Â*It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. Â*If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. Â*it's the same with
the brakes. Â*As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. Â*If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

On Mar 18, 1:44*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:14*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. *whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. *The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. *In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. *There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. *The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K

*You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Ype, case of HUA, misread the post. Already replied to out LFBer.

Harry K

On Mar 18, 1:35*pm, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:26:36 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:44:53 -0500, Jim Yanik
wrote:

"h" wrote in
:

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
news:59qdnbcnzp1fwTzWnZ2dnUVZ_vCdnZ2d@giganews. com...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the
air above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they
_will_ have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot
up. Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the
brakes on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those
muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do
you rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like
any other driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the
brakes at any time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready
position, thus the faster reaction time.

Or allowing for confusion and the wrong foot applying pressure to the wrong
pedal.
It also allows pressure to be applied to BOTH pedals at the same time.
(riding the brake;not good for both car and traffic behind it.)

and the reflex HABIT of always using the same foot for the braking task
never gets developed,and in an emergency,confusion can result.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.

No,just on racetracks.
Maybe the "dead pedal" on auto tranny cars should be a deadman's switch;
remove the foot from it and the engine shuts off.

It's interesting that the person, you, who has zero skill at left foot
braking holds themselves out as the expert on what will happen to
people who left foot brake. *You are completely wrong, not
surprisingly, since you are speaking from a position of ignorance. Why
don't you talk about something you actually know something about,
assuming there is some such subject.

* I sused to left foot brake driving my Dad's rebel because otherwise
kit would stall. Finally convinced him to let ME fix the carb, since
the dealer couldn't get it right.

No more left foot braking.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Same here on more than one of my junkers back in the 40s/50s. Not a
fun thing to do.

Harry K

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.


- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

On Mar 18, 1:44*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:14*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. *whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. *The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. *In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. *There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. *The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K

*You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you count _all_ the foot operated controls, some had 5, or even 6
if there was a foot operated emergency. dimmer, starter, clutch,
brake, gas. Of course the dimmer and starter weren't "pedals". There
were even a few that had a foot operated radio tuner....oops, I forgot
the 'stomp on this to spray windshield thingy' Geez, It didn't seem
so crowde when I was driving them

Curious, About what year did the starter become fairly standard on the
key switch?
Same for about when the dimmer moved to the column.

With all the old cars I drove back then I can't recall if my 38 chev
had starter on key but I am sure it still had the dimmer on floor.

Harry K

On Mar 18, 6:07*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:26 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. *whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. *The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. *In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. *There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated..

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. *The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.

- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

Really? Then why did you have to lower revs to get it into the next
higher gear?

Do a google or bing search for "Saxomat" for more information.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Non-synchro box at a guess.

Harry K

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:39:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:13*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:25*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:44*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. *I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. *In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. *IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. *Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? *Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? *Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. *Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? *

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. *Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. *If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. *Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. *I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. *It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? *So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K

I don't know what you consider a long period. *I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. * If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So in an emergency you LFB is useless as it gains nothing. And in
traffic just adding a few feet following distance avoids the _need_
for it. You make an extremely poor case.

Harry K

Depends on the emergency. If it's one I anticipated *might* happen
and it does, I gain 44 feet. If it's not anticipated I'm no worse off
then anyone else. So on average I'm better off. It's not a "few
extra feet" I'm gaining, it's nearly 50 feet, that's about 3 car
lengths.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:22:41 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 10:39*am, Harry K wrote:
On Mar 17, 11:13*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:25*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:44*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. *I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. *In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. *IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. *Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? *Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? *Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. *Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? *

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. *Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. *If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. *Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. *I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. *It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? *So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K

I don't know what you consider a long period. *I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. * If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So in an emergency you LFB is useless as it gains nothing. *And in
traffic just adding a few feet following distance avoids the _need_
for it. * You make an extremely poor case.

Harry K- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I agree with Harry. You can't keep a foot hoovering in the air ready
to react at a moments notice.

No one said they did 100% of the time.

And even then, the tiny fraction of a
second compared to just using your right foot is unlikely to make any
material difference in the outcome.

Simply not true. In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.


And now we have Ashton joining
the original left foot braker in claiming that "covering" the brake
pedal is a good idea.

Because it is a good idea if you know how to do it properly. It's
clear from the RFBer comments that you people haven't got the foggiest
idea how to properly left FB. That's not a criticism, it's just a
skill you never learned. I've mastered driving both manual and
automatic transmission vehicles and braking with both my right and
left feet. It does not present a problem for ME. You seem to believe
that you are not capable of mastering it and if that's the case I
would encourage you to continue to use your right foot, I would not
want to be responsible for you having an accident when you got
confused as to which foot to use to press on the huge number of pedals
in your car.


The example of using it when traffic ahead is
slowing is particularly dumb.

Yes, god forbid someone drive in a defensive manner that gains them 50
extra feet of stopping distance compared to your technique.


Here's my solution.. If traffic up
ahead is slowing and the seperation is becoming too small for the
speed, I move my right foot from the gas pedal and start applying the
brakes to increase the distance, instead of relying on "covering" to
shave a 1/10 of a second off my reaction time.


And I encourage you to continue to drive within whatever limited skill
set you have.


One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

I'm glad to hear that you hold the opinions of low paid civil servants
with zero special training in driving in such high regard.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. *Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ *but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. *Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. *It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. *LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot *while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.



There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.


If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.



I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:50:01 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 7:53*am, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:14 am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. *The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K

You've never seen a car with a manual transmission and a clutch pedal?
What color is the sun on your planet?

BTW - my 1941 and 1946 Chevy Pickup trucks had FOUR pedals.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

OOPPS!!! misread the post.

And no, the reason for RFB is because it is the most reasonable way to
do it. All the hot air spent trying to defend LFB hasn't accomplished
even a small dent in the reasons _NOT_ to do it.


The alleged reasons not to do it have been demolished. The fact that
it won't changed the ossified minds on display here has no bearing on
that fact.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:37:36 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..


how ridiculous. whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.


And you sound like a hot-dog driver who can't lift his right foot off
the gas and let the vehicle slow down a bit in anticipation of needing
to brake.

You, Ashton Crusher - are a DANGEROUS driver - and an accident just
waiting to happen...

And it WILL happen. Just a questiopn of when and how serious.


Yeah, If that makes you feel better. Lets go over it again.....

LFB creates GREATER safety all other things being equal. That means
if YOU did exactly what you do now in terms of when you lift your
right foot off the gas, how fast you go, how much following distance
you leave, etc, but made two changes, that you would be able to
create, at no cost, the equivalent of 3 extra car lengths of space in
front of you. Those two changes would be 1 - use your left foot to
brake instead of your right and 2 - move it into position EARLIER then
you normally would lift your right foot off the throttle by about 2 to
3 seconds.

That's it in the simplest terms. Now, please explain how my (or you)
adding 3 effective additional car lengths of following distance makes
me a dangerous driver. And don't tell me it's because my feet will
get confused, in decades of driving it has NEVER happened.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:52:05 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:20*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:03:40 -0700 (PDT), jamesgangnc





wrote:
On Mar 17, 1:33*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. *After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

There seems to be some serious misunderstanding of what left foot
braking is. *You don't just put your foot on the brake pedal, or put
your foot over the pedal, and leave it there for the whole time you
are driving. *You mostly just have it resting on the floor, just like
you would if you used your right foot. *However, when a situation
comes up where you *might* need to brake you get ready to brake by
moving your foot over the pedal, and if you are experienced and
skilled, you might be touching, NOT pressing, the pedal. *You might
hold that position for only a few seconds to half a minute. *In heavy
traffic you might be moving your foot in and out of that position
several times per mile if the traffic situation warrants. *And of
course some of the time you actually apply the brakes. *But you don't
just hover your foot over the pedal till your leg goes numb.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yep, you have said it over, and over, and over repeatedly to the point
of asininity. Thus far you have made zero progress in showing one
iota of advantage to it and have not refuted any of the rebuttals. The
only possible advantage is that fraction of a second reaction and that
only counts in an emergency - when, per you, you don't even have your
foot near the pedal.

For the record, back in the 60s when there _was_ some push for it, I
practiced it for awhile. Gave it up as I could see no reason for it.

Harry K


You are the one who said "after hours on the road you will relax those
muscles" in regard to them inadvertently pushing on the pedal so
clearly YOU did NOT understand what I said the first several times I
said it. So if anyone is asinine it is you. And the advantage of LFB
has been outlined several times, you just choose to ignore those
advantages (smoother driving, shorter reaction times)

If you tried it and didn't like it that's fine. I have tried RFB
(with AT cars) and could see no reason for it. That said, I have
never attacked those who prefer RFB because of that preference. But
every time LFB gets mentioned it and whoever mentioned it is savagely
attacked, completely out of proportion to any of the alleged defects
in it. The reactions to LFB are really quite interesting.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K

Try driving a few cars and get back to me. The brake light switch
controls the brake lights and triggers the unlock.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.

On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking..

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==

On Mar 19, 9:41*am, Roy wrote:
On Mar 19, 2:45*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:



On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. *So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. *I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. *I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. *I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. *I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. *It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. *That's OK. *In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. *Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, *I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? *It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. *If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. *it's the same with
the brakes. *As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. *If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. *Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.

==
Probably the best way to defensive drive is to stay off the roads and
highways when some "elitist" know-it-all is practicing his left foot
dance over the brake pedal and consequently following too closely as
he thinks (or knows) that he has an advantage of a couple of seconds
over me in his braking reaction. So, next time you venture forth, post
a sign in your window stating that a LF driver is about.

==- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

They should make all LFBers hook the brake light to the horn. I'll
bet they would quit doing it.

Harry K

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
I agree with Harry. * You can't keep a foot hoovering in the air ready
to react at a moments notice.

No one said they did 100% of the time.

* And even then, the tiny fraction of a

second compared to just using your right foot is unlikely to make any
material difference in the outcome.

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? Prove it.





* And now we have Ashton joining

the original left foot braker in claiming that "covering" the brake
pedal is a good idea.

Because it is a good idea if you know how to do it properly. *It's
clear from the RFBer comments that you people haven't got the foggiest
idea how to properly left FB. *That's not a criticism, it's just a
skill you never learned. *I've mastered driving both manual and
automatic transmission vehicles and braking with both my right and
left feet. *It does not present a problem for ME. *You seem to believe
that you are not capable of mastering it and if that's the case I
would encourage you to continue to use your right foot, I would not
want to be responsible for you having an accident when you got
confused as to which foot to use to press on the huge number of pedals
in your car.

*The example of using it when traffic ahead is

slowing is particularly dumb.

Yes, god forbid someone drive in a defensive manner that gains them 50
extra feet of stopping distance compared to your technique.

* *Here's my solution.. * If traffic up

ahead is slowing and the seperation is becoming too small for the
speed, I move my right foot from the gas pedal and start applying the
brakes to increase the distance, instead of relying on "covering" to
shave a 1/10 of a second off my reaction time.

And I encourage you to continue to drive within whatever limited skill
set you have.


LOL Let me get this right. A situation arises while driving where
you are getting too close to other cars in traffic. My solution and
that of any safe driver is to take my foot of the throttle and start
braking to slow down and increase the seperation distance. Your
solution is to keep your right foot on the throttle, hoover your left
foot over the brake and continue on your way. I'd say it's obvious
to everyone here that you are the one with the limited skills and are
an unsafe driver.




One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

I'm glad to hear that you hold the opinions of low paid civil servants
with zero special training in driving *in such high regard.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

More BS presented as fact. How do you know what the training and
credentials are of the people that wrote the state driving manuals,
written tests, and administer the in car driving tests?

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. Link please.

On Mar 19, 3:27*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:39:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 11:13*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:25*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 09:39:02 -0700 (PDT), Roy
wrote:

On Mar 16, 8:44*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Sun, 14 Mar 2010 19:50:51 -0700, "Nonny" wrote:
FWIW, I began driving a tractor (clutch) at 10 and cars at 12.
That was in the 50's. *I learned to use my left foot for the
clutch and right for brake and throttle. *In the 80's, I taught my
kids the same thing-first on a John Deere and then a car. *IMHO,
there is no reason, and is a cause for possible harm, to teach a
person to do otherwise. *Sure, the Driver Ed-mobiles and many cars
now have autos, but what good does it to to teach a reaction to
kids that could get them killed when they move up to a manual
transmission eventually?

You do know that people who ride motorcycles use their feet (and
hands) differently then when they drive cars? *Similarly, people who
fly aircraft use their feet (and arms) differently then people who
drive cars? *Yet they all manage to do so safely even when switching
between the various modes of transportation. *Or do you think aircraft
pilots are creating a hazard on the roadways as they drive to and from
the airport? *

The notion that people can't manage to use two feet in different ways
when driving is silly. *Like anything, it's a skill that must be
learned. *If you haven't, or are unable, to learn that skill then by
all means continue to let your left foot just flop around on the floor
and use only your right foot while driving an automatic.. Those of use
with the skill to use both feet will continue to do so and be safer
and more refined drivers as a result. *Perhaps you ought to give it a
try, and I don't mean for 2 minutes, I mean for a week or two until
it's second nature, you might be surprised at how much smoother and
more effectively you can control your car in traffic. *I've driven
(cars [with and without a clutch] and motorcycles) and flown aircraft
and never had a problem with my feet getting confused. *It's something
you LEARN, just like the rest of the skills you acquire in life.

==
"Safer and refined"...what b.s. you are peddling...all in your own
mind perhaps.
==

Perhaps it's just in your mind that other people can't do it because
you can't.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? *So you think you can hold your foot in the air for long periods?

Harry K

I don't know what you consider a long period. *I hold my foot in the
air for anywhere from perhaps a few seconds to half a minute. *It
moves back and forth between resting next to the pedal and hovering
over the pedal when I want to be ready for braking. It's all just
second nature. *If traffic is slowing up ahead my left foot will
shadow the brake without my right foot moving at all and I just
maintain speed. *I can easily cut a half second of reaction time if
something happens, which translates to 44 extra feet to stop in at 60
mph and in the process I don't have to jerk the passengers back and
forth taking my right foot off the gas to be ready. * If I'm just
cruising on the open road it's just resting on the floor of course.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So in an emergency you LFB is useless as it gains nothing. *And in
traffic just adding a few feet following distance avoids the _need_
for it. * You make an extremely poor case.

Harry K

Depends on the emergency. *If it's one I anticipated *might* happen
and it does, I gain 44 feet. *If it's not anticipated I'm no worse off
then anyone else. *So on average I'm better off. *It's not a "few
extra feet" I'm gaining, it's nearly 50 feet, that's about 3 car
lengths.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Prove it.

wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? Prove it.

Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without me. But I
think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the quotes turns
up quite a bit of stuff. Much of it mirrors the controversy here. There are
many, many threads and forums that deteriorate the way this one has. You've got
your LFB folks saying "it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you
LFB folks are crazy, stupid, or reckless. Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the issue:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may...os/hy-wheels17

It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the accelerator to
the brake is about 0.2 second". That is about a car length advantage at 60 mph
if the LFB driver is covering the pedal. So it is not nearly 50 feet and is
only there if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie said the
company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right foot can be used
for braking, but the design is optimized for one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have never
evaluated." and "In California, the Department of Motor Vehicles, which decides
who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the matter. "


One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in NJ
if you use left foot braking.

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this as a
failure point. The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide that says you
"should" brake with the right foot. I would think it would say "must" if it was
a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. I'm starting to qualify as an
older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to them.

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. Link please.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney says LFB is
the preferred method.

http://tinyurl.com/DanGurney

It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. A few pages up from the
link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking for sanctions
against Toyota and Nissan because they are importing 100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind of fun.
LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught to me in my
emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track handling techniques do
apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of venom it
attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post avoid the venom. I
don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away since.

-- Doug

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:07:03 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:





On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.


- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

Really? Then why did you have to lower revs to get it into the next
higher gear?

Do a google or bing search for "Saxomat" for more information.

You must be talking about a different system. I'm talking the
"autostick"
Officially called the Volkswagen Automatic Stickshift, this
transmission was a three speed manual transmission connected to a
vacuum-operated automatic clutch. When the driver put their hand on
the gearshift the clutch would disengage by a 12volt solenoid
operating the vacuum clutch, allowing shifting between gears, once
they removed their hand the clutch would re-engage automatically. The
transmission was also equipped with a torque converter, allowing the
car to idle in gear, like an automatic. This transmission was first
available on the 1968 Volkswagen Beetle, and was made available on the
Karmann Ghia in 1969. VW dropped the transmission option altogether in
1976.

I've both driven and worked on them.

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:31:50 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 1:44Â*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. Â*The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K

Â*You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you count _all_ the foot operated controls, some had 5, or even 6
if there was a foot operated emergency. dimmer, starter, clutch,
brake, gas. Of course the dimmer and starter weren't "pedals". There
were even a few that had a foot operated radio tuner....oops, I forgot
the 'stomp on this to spray windshield thingy' Geez, It didn't seem
so crowde when I was driving them

Curious, About what year did the starter become fairly standard on the
key switch?
Same for about when the dimmer moved to the column.

With all the old cars I drove back then I can't recall if my 38 chev
had starter on key but I am sure it still had the dimmer on floor.

Harry K
Chrysler had push button starting in the early 30's (1933 Chrysler)
but foot operated starters will still relatively common through the
fourties. Just about all had dash mounted push-button or key operated
starters in the fifties.
1948 Olds still had a foot operated starter, so I'm pretty sure your
'38 Chevvie did too.
Hudson/Nash had foot starters up to '55, Stude to '54, and some Chevy
trucks up 'till '59.

As a general rule, MOST vehicles had moved away from the floor mounted
starter by the time they went to 12 volt systems

The dimmer on the floor was pretty well standard on American cars up
into the early '80s and on trucks into the '90s.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:04:22 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:32:57 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Mar 18, 2:33Â*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:21:30 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 17, 4:08Â*pm, "h" wrote:
"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message

om...

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you
rest in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other
driver. If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any
time, you can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the
faster reaction time.

"Faster" than using the right foot, which is already there? Left foot
brakers should not be allowed to drive. Period.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I notice the aficiandos have backed off from 'riding with the foot
above the pedal' to 'only when one expects to use it'. Â*Seems to shoot
down their 'faster reaction time' seeing that the right foot is not
only _already there_ Â*but even a bit closer to the brake since it is
on the gas pedal and alredy off the floor. Â*Of course if one is in
cruise then there is no time advantage at all to eithef foot.

Harry K

None of the aficionados has backed off something. Â*It's the people who
don't know what they are talking about who keep saying left foot
brakers drive around "with their foot above the pedal" as if they have
it there the whole time they are driving. Â*LFBers brake with the left
foot by moving their foot in and out of position just like right foot
brakers do, the main difference is that unlike right foot brakers,
they can maintain position and speed on the throttle with their right
foot Â*while using the left foot to prepare to brake thereby driving in
a smoother manner with greater safety all other things being equal.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you feel the need to put your left foot over the brake pedal to
prepare to brake, then why would you not simply take your right foot
off the gas FIRST and use it instead?

I'm not sure why this concept is so hard for you folks to grasp. LFB
allows me to BE PREPARED at an earlier point in time then one would be
if they used their right foot to brake. If RFB were being used I
would not take my foot off the throttle because the apparent need for
braking would not be high enough to do so.

You need to learn to "drive ahead", or "drive defensively".
I've said it before, and I'll say it again, Ashton - you are a
DANGEROUS driver. Glad you are not near me. There are enough like you
on the road up here.



There is nothing safe about a
situation where you still have the throttle applied while anticipating
the need to stop with such urgency that you have a foot hoovering over
the brake pedal.

Again, the concept is not one of immediate urgency, it is one of being
prepared SOONER then one otherwise would be if you were to RFB. It
allows you to gain roughly 50 extra feet of "virtual" following
distance and the ONLY thing you need to do is USE both feet instead of
letting one of your feet just lay there like a dead fish.

If you lift your foot in anticipation, you gain a REAL 50 feet - much
more dependable than "virtual". If you "drive ahead" you can
anticipate what the next 5 -10 cars ahead of you are going to do, and
generally slow down enough WITHOUT USING YOUR BRAKES to handle the
situation.

If I anticipate the need to brake, the FIRST thing I
do is take my foot off the gas pedal. At that point, it's available
to brake. And there is only one action now to take to stop the car,
which is to press the brake. With your method, to bring the car to a
stop requires TWO actions, removing your right foot from the depressed
gas pedal and applying the brake with the left foot. What you
suggest is implicitly unsafe. Capiche?

That's not correct. IF I need to brake the two actions (right foot up
and left foot down) happen simultaneously, not serially. There's
nothing unsafe about it. How do I know? Because I've been doing it
for decades.


And one day it will get you.


I'd like to see any reference for your claim that using two feet is
safer. Find us any online driving reference that recommends it. If
it's safer, why does NJ fail you on the driving test?


I doubt you'll find anyone has ever studied it. As to why it is or is
not recommended, as was pointed out earlier, it used to be taught in
Drivers Ed in some areas. I can only guess why NJ would fail someone,
and most likely it's because most people are like you, which means two
things, one - they right foot brake all the time, two - they think
whatever way they do something is the only acceptable way. No doubt
the guy in charge of setting the pass-fail rules for NJ thinks like
you do and he gets to make the rules.


I'm still waiting for someone to answer this question, ...

If using the left foot to brake is SO confusing and dangerous, how can
you accept flying in an airplane with a pilot that drove to the
airport braking with his right foot and steering with a steering
wheel, but who will "drive" the 767 down the runway steering with his
feet and braking with BOTH feet. Or if he drives a motor cycle he
will drive to the airport shifting his motor cycle with his left foot,
working the throttle with his right hand, and braking with his left
hand and right foot, while working teh clutch with his left hand.
Surely he will be VERY confused and if there is an emergency on
takeoff or landing his hands and feet will just go into spasms from
all the nerve confusion. Or the same basic question as it relates to
someone who drives both a car and a motorcycle.... surely there is
such a difference in how the feet and hands are used in a car versus a
motorcycle that it would be MADNESS for the same person to be allowed
to drive both. For some reason you anti-LFB people will never answer
this.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 01:45:05 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:48:57 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 08:53:10 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 17, 11:41Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:28:57 -0700 (PDT), Harry K





wrote:
On Mar 16, 10:33Â*pm, Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Tue, 16 Mar 2010 13:58:35 -0700 (PDT), Harry K

wrote:
On Mar 15, 11:23Â*am, Douglas Johnson wrote:
Jim Yanik wrote:
using left foot for braking makes it possible for one to apply both brakes
and throttle at the same time.
In most cases,outside of the track,this is not good.

Agreed. Â*So don't do it.

Besides,just because a state or states "encourages" something does not make
it right or proper. States are not any authority on driving techniques.
That "encouragement" could merely derive from some bureaucrat of the same
bent as you guys.

By the same authority, it doesn't make it wrong. Â*I was just using it to confirm
my memory that my Michigan driver's ed taught left foot braking.

IMO,operating differently depending on what car you're using means you
aren't developing the reflex or habit that people revert to under
emergencies.Thus,you could,under pressure,use the wrong foot at a critical
time.

This could be a problem, but hasn't for me. Â*I own both automatics and manuals.
I move between them regularly. Â*I brake with the appropriate foot without
thinking about it, even in an emergency. Â*I've *never* screwed it up.

I'm kind of surprised at the amount of controversy this has stirred up. Â*It's
clear I'm in the minority here and on the net. Â*That's OK. Â*In any case, I'm
done with this topic.

-- Doug

It's not the first time and wont' be the last. It usually shows up in
the driving forums though.

I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

Harry, Â*I've done it for years and my foot doesn't press the pedal. Is
your foot really so insensitive that you can't tell the difference
between when you are touching something and pressing something? Â*It's
no different then when someone has their foot on the gas pedal, if
they are moving they are pressing the gas and holding it in a fixed
position. Â*If they are stopped they will merely be touching it and it
won't move yet you can tell you are touching it. Â*it's the same with
the brakes. Â*As I said in the other post, these things are skills that
you learn by doing. Â*If people don't want to learn them it's their
choice, if they learn them poorly, that's their problem, but there is
no doubt that left foot braking can provide shorter reaction times and
smoother driving, all other things being equal, it's just the physics
of the thing.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And you just _know_ that you never activate the brake lights just how?

Harry K

Because doing so causes my lockup torque converter to unlock and
that's very noticeable.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

??? Never heard of the brake 'unlocking the torque coverter' but then
I haven't heard of a lot of things. Any cite for that?

Harry K
It's true, it does unlock the converter, but big, fat, harry deal!!.
So what? Lifting your foot off the gas unlocks the converter too.
Guess that's why the "Crusher" doesn't want to lift his foot untill he
has to stop. Must be worried about "burning out the clutch"

Maybe you and Harry and a couple others who can't drive and use two
feet have no interest in how well you drive or how defensively you
drive but some of us do.
Your driving is NOT defensive driving, jt is "reactionary" driving,
and I would not call it GOOD driving.

As for "can't drive" I've driven competetively as well as "civily" for
the better part of 45 years.

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 06:27:48 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:33:23 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 6:07Â*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:25:26 -0400, wrote:
On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 17:20:26 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 16:44:06 -0400, wrote:

On Thu, 18 Mar 2010 07:47:46 -0700 (PDT), Harry K
wrote:

On Mar 18, 5:14Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 23:39:54 -0700, Ashton Crusher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 21:27:04 -0400, wrote:

On Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:50:47 -0400, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

"jamesgangnc" wrote
I defy anyone to drive any time at all with their left foot in the air
above the pedal. Â*Whether they are aware of it or not, they _will_
have their foot touching the pedal.

Harry K

If you have your left foot on the brake you need to hold the foot up.
Resting the front of your foot on the brake pedal is riding the brakes
on many cars. Â*After hours on the road you will relax those muscles.

As a practical matter, you don't hold your foot in the air, nor do you rest
in on the pedal. You keep your foot on the floor just like any other driver.
If you are in a situation where you "may" need the brakes at any time, you
can then elect to move that foot to a ready position, thus the faster
reaction time.
Â*If you are a right-foot braker and you are in a situation where you
might need to brake at any time you take your RIGHT foot off the
accellerator, and while it is still in motion, without having to
command the LEFT foot to do anything, you hit the brakes.

Much faster reaction time, and NO CHANCE that both feet will be down
at the same time on both pedals.

Left foot braking IS dangerous - it doesn't matter how many years YOU
have gotten away with it..

how ridiculous. Â*whatever you can do with your right foot you can do
just as quickly with your left foot. Â*The difference is that you can
pre-position your left foot in situations where you would not be
taking your right foot off the throttle. Â*In doing so you eliminate
about a half second of reaction time should that situation deteriorate
to where you do need to brake. Â*There is nothing dangerous about left
foot braking, to the contrary, it's safer then right foot braking. You
sound like a hysterical old woman.

The ONLY reason that braking with the right foot is customary is
because cars used to have a third pedal for the clutch. If the first
cars had come equipped with automatic transmissions, NO ONE would use
their right foot for braking. It would be stone cold stupid to do
everything with one foot, unless your other foot had been amputated.

Do these chuckleheads steer with only one hand, because in the olden
days, you needed your other hand for shifting?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Now THAT goes beyond stupid. Â*The only car I know of that had 3 pedals
was the Model T.

Harry K
You sure about that, Harry??
Every standard shift car I ever drove had 3 pedals.
Some even had 4 (foot operated emergency brake)

My 1940's Chevys had 4 pedals, but none were the emergency brake.

And VW had a "clutchless" stick shift. I think it had a centrifical
clutch that did not require a pedal. It disengaged when you took your
foot off the gas.

- No it disengaged when you touched the shift lever.

Really? Then why did you have to lower revs to get it into the next
higher gear?

Do a google or bing search for "Saxomat" for more information.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Non-synchro box at a guess.

Harry K

Bad guess. It had a centrifical cluych that needed to be disengaged.
Nope. No centrigical clutch. A vacuum operated clutch, with the
vacuum controlled by a solenoid valve operated by touching the
gearshift lever. It also had a torque converter, like an automatic,
that allowed the engine to idle in gear, and even pull away
(sluggishly) in second gear.

Douglas Johnson wrote in
:

wrote:

On Mar 19, 3:37*am, Ashton Crusher wrote:

Simply not true. *In heavy traffic I can easily gain about a 50 foot
advantage over a right foot braker all other things being equal.

And how would you know that besides just throwing out some number as
BS? Prove it.

Well, I said I was done with this topic and it has motored on without
me. But I think I'll jump back in one more time.

A Google search on "left foot braking reaction times" without the
quotes turns up quite a bit of stuff. Much of it mirrors the
controversy here. There are many, many threads and forums that
deteriorate the way this one has. You've got your LFB folks saying
"it reduces reaction time" and your RFB folks saying you LFB folks are
crazy, stupid, or reckless. Pick at least one.

Here is a 2006 LA Times article which basically wishy washes the
issue:

http://articles.latimes.com/2006/may...os/hy-wheels17

It says that "the time it takes to move the right foot from the
accelerator to the brake is about 0.2 second". That is about a car
length advantage at 60 mph if the LFB driver is covering the pedal.

**IF** the driver is "covering the pedal".
in an -emergency-,they probably will not be covering the pedal.

So it is not nearly 50 feet and is only there if the LFB driver is
covering the pedal.

It also says that "General Motors human factors engineer Brian Kulie
said the company lays out its pedals so that either the left or right
foot can be used for braking, but the design is optimized for
one-footed operation"

and that the NHTSA says ""It is an aspect of driver behavior we have
never evaluated." and "In California, the Department of Motor
Vehicles, which decides who gets licensed, also has no opinion on the
matter. "


One thing is for sure, they will fail you during a driving test in
NJ if you use left foot braking.

Actually, Google has failed to turn up any official reference to this
as a failure point. The strongest I've found is a NJ driver's guide
that says you "should" brake with the right foot. I would think it
would say "must" if it was a failure point.

Click and Clack are divided on the issue:

http://www.cartalk.com/content/colum...bruary/11.html

Tom says it is OK for older drivers, Ray says no. I'm starting to
qualify as an older driver, but I'm not sure why it is limited to
them.

I've asked you for a reference to any credible source of information
that says left foot braking and using two feet on an automatic is even
acceptable, let alone a superior method. Should be easy, if the
facts are as you claim. Link please.

Here is a link to a 1968 Popular Mechanics article where Dan Gurney
says LFB is the preferred method.

http://tinyurl.com/DanGurney

It is worth looking just for the blast from the past. A few pages up
from the link is an article saying that Detroit automakers are asking
for sanctions against Toyota and Nissan because they are importing
100,000 cars a year.

Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw

No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind
of fun. LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught
to me in my emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track
handling techniques do apply there.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of
venom it attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post
avoid the venom. I don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away
since.

-- Doug


LFB is the primary cause of riding the brakes.
If a driver has their braking foot on the gas pedal,it cannot be riding the
brakes.
I often see cars where the brake lights flick on and off when I know the
driver isn't braking. They are LFBers. They are a hazard.

One important thing here;
IMO,the majority of LFB drivers are NOT trained drivers,they're just poorly
trained drivers. The good ones are the exception and not the rule.
Thus it's a bad practice.

No offense meant.

Besides,doesn't it make sense to drive the same manner no matter what type
of car you're driving? Consistency.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com

On Fri, 19 Mar 2010 18:04:45 -0500, Douglas Johnson
wrote:


Here's a wild YouTube video showing a rally driver left foot braking:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMEqOGejlrw
You will notice Colin is driving a front wheel drive standard
transmission car on a "closed course". What he is doing is locking the
rear wheels to induce oversteer ("hang out the tail") while burning
the power through the front brakes. It's got NOTHING to do with
stopping, believe me. It is a VERY effective way of tossing a
lightweight front drive vehicle through corners on loose surfaces at
INCREDIBLE speeds.

Also very effective at wearing out expensive competition braking
material - a set of pads is good for MABEE two rallyes - generally
they are replaced between events in performance rallying.




No, I'm not claiming that applies to street driving. It's just kind of fun.
LFB also common on the race track. That's why it was taught to me in my
emergency vehicle street driving course. Some race track handling techniques do
apply there.

It can be usefull in "evasive action" - doing things that under normal
conditions would net you a citation or two - - - -.

I kicked over this ant hill and am truly surprised by the amount of venom it
attracted. I'd appreciate it if any replies to this post avoid the venom. I
don't expect anyone to get converted.

It looks to me that LFB was a fad in the mid-60's and has faded away since.

-- Doug