Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

"fzbuilder" wrote in message
...
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Maybe if we had pictures of the setup, the wiring in the panel to the double
pole breaker, and any junction boxes in the system, opened and with wires
pulled out

In article , fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Call an electrician NOW. This is a very dangerous condition, and attempting to
diagnose it long-distance through the newsgroups is not likely to be
productive. This time of year, you need the furnace -- but that circuit should
not be turned back on until the problem has been found and fixed. Call an
electrician NOW.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:28:14 -0600, cjt wrote:
fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

Not only that, but unlrelated circuits should never be ganged.

In anycase, if the breaker is off and the conduit heats up then you
haven't shut off the correct circuit. Get an AC voltmeter and check
the lines going through the conduit. Better yet, hire somebody and do
it before your house burns to the ground.

First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:28:14 -0600, cjt wrote:
fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

Not only that, but unlrelated circuits should never be ganged.

In anycase, if the breaker is off and the conduit heats up then you
haven't shut off the correct circuit. Get an AC voltmeter and check
the lines going through the conduit. Better yet, hire somebody and do
it before your house burns to the ground.

I'm thinking that this might be an open neutral type situation, hence
the seemingly unrelated stuff getting hot?

In any case, I concur, this is not a problem that has a clear cut
troubleshooting flowchart based on what you posted, and is also capable
of burning your house down if not fixed ASAP. So get someone to look at
it, please.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going on.
Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My first thought
is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being overloaded by having two
circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm thinking that the two circuits
are connected to a twin breaker and not a double pole.

That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for the
furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each conductor
and determine what it is being used for. I would probably start at the
circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this faster than you and
identify everything that is not safe and code compliant.

Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:56:58 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.

If that is the case in North America something is DEFINITELY waired
wrong. With a ganged breaker, the neutral, if shared by two circuits,
would be share ONLY by the two circuits on the shared breaker.

And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

And it it IS, get it rewired properly YESTERDAY if not sooner.

In article , wrote:

And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On Dec 24, 12:56*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.
Only a few miles from here three children died in a 2008 Christmas
season fire. (No smoke detectors or rehearsed procedure for getting
out). And yes; the cause was electrical.
That taken care of; then check your insurance policy. If a pre-
existing and known condition (over-heated wiring, whatever the basic
cause) causes say, a fire, some insurance companies may not honour the
policy! Quite apart from the risk to life!

On Dec 23, 11:37*pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.

He's not a troll and exactly what is dangerous about this? What Doug
has described is an Edison circuit which is a shared neutral circuit
using opposite legs on two breakers and is recognized as OK under the
NEC. If there is anything in the NEC that says the two sides of
the circuit can't go in different directions, I'd like to see it.

In practice, I've never been a big fan of Edison circuits for a
variety of reasons, but now that the NEC requires that the two
breakers be ganged together, it removes one of my previous main
concerns.



Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.

That advice I strongly agree with.

wrote:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.
Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.
There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.
If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.

He's not a troll and exactly what is dangerous about this? What Doug
has described is an Edison circuit which is a shared neutral circuit
using opposite legs on two breakers and is recognized as OK under the
NEC. If there is anything in the NEC that says the two sides of
the circuit can't go in different directions, I'd like to see it.

In practice, I've never been a big fan of Edison circuits for a
variety of reasons, but now that the NEC requires that the two
breakers be ganged together, it removes one of my previous main
concerns.



Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.

That advice I strongly agree with.




Since the NEC is now requiring AFCIs for more stuff, doesn't that pretty
much rule out Edison ckts. for new construction? OR are there double
AFCI breakers available?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article , terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , .=
ca wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the=
CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a p=
oint
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits th=
at go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.

Which is exactly what I advised the original poster, shortly after he posted
it. While others were dicking around trying to tell him what to look for, this
is what I wrote:

"Call an electrician NOW. This is a very dangerous condition."

*Do* try to keep up, eh?

On Dec 24, 7:36*am, Nate Nagel wrote:
wrote:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.
Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.
There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.
If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.

He's not a troll and exactly what is dangerous about this? * What Doug
has described is an Edison circuit which is a shared neutral circuit
using opposite legs on two breakers and is recognized as OK under the
NEC. * * If there is anything in the NEC that says the two sides of
the circuit can't go in different directions, I'd like to see it.

In practice, I've never been a big fan of Edison circuits for a
variety of reasons, but now that the NEC requires that the two
breakers be ganged together, it removes one of my previous main
concerns.

Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.

That advice I strongly agree with.

Since the NEC is now requiring AFCIs for more stuff, doesn't that pretty
much rule out Edison ckts. for new construction? *OR are there double
AFCI breakers available?

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.http://members.cox.net/njnagel- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

There are double ground fault breakers. Code calls fo rthem on larger
hot tubs.

The hot tub needs a new dedicated circuit on a new breaker. The rest
of it needs to be investigated because it sounds a lot like 14g on a
20 amp breaker possibly with a shared neutral. These hot tub
companies tell people they have tubs that can be plugged into existing
circuits and that's just crap.

In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines. If I'm right AND it's installed properly,
the right one for you box, etc, then you will measure 220Vac between the two
breaker hots, which is its intended use.

So if one breaker is overloaded and tries to break, it's going to try to
take the other breaker with it, right? That's where it becomes DANGEROUS!
If one breaker starts to heat up due to overload, it can't break the ckt
because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if
it's nice and cool. So who knows how high the overload will have to get
before that overloaded breaker can overcome the non-overloaded breaker and
open, carrying the other one along with it. Or IF it can even do so period?
It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on
providing power until something burns open. As you are seeing. This could
not happen if it were a 220Vac appliance having the problem and it were
wired properly and to code.

It's easy enough to fix, IF the overloaded breaker hasn't been ruined by the
overloads! Just remove the pin/screw, whatever that gangs the levers
together and allow them to operate on their own.
A much better fix would be to replace the ganged breaker set with two
single breakers, since you're using them for 110Vac anyway. If you need
220Vac, THEN use a ganged breaker, and ONLY for the 220 equipment.

however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Irrelevant, but; isn't the hot tub 220V? Is this a case of mixing 110 and
220 on a ganged breaker? Ouch! Don't do that.


Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

If I've understood you properly, that's all explained by the preceding info
about ganged vs non-ganged breakers.

I hope you'll keep us advised,

Twayne

--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

PS - get a PRO in there ASAP!! And kill BOTH breakers and leave them OFF
until the electrician gets there to straighten things out. That's a VERY
DANGEROUS situation and a high saftey risk.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.

Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground! There should never
be any current in it under non-fault conditions and to get hot, it's a hell
of a LOT of current. I think there's more to it than those two breakers
unless it's the case that one ganged breaker cannot overcome the
non-overloaded one to open them up. Compliance labs routinely test conduit
for 60A withstand, measureing voltage across every joint encountered, and
the conduit never heated up. Something's awfully wrong and IMO very
DANGEROUS there.

Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

Thus it's a seriously miswired and dangerous ckt; agreed.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers for
other people who might follow the advice.

Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.
Only a few miles from here three children died in a 2008 Christmas
season fire. (No smoke detectors or rehearsed procedure for getting
out). And yes; the cause was electrical.
That taken care of; then check your insurance policy. If a pre-
existing and known condition (over-heated wiring, whatever the basic
cause) causes say, a fire, some insurance companies may not honour the
policy! Quite apart from the risk to life!

Absolutely good information; and accurate to boot, except the ckts IMO need
to be permanently turned OFF until repaired by a Pro.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situatioin unless you're trolling, too.


There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed. One ganged
breaker can prevent the other, if overloaded, from breaking in time to
prevent problems. It is dangerous.


If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at
this long distance not likely to fix.

He's not a troll and exactly what is dangerous about this?

Catch up your reading and if you have any reading comprehension at all,
you'll understand. It appears to me you might also be a troll.

What Doug
has described is an Edison circuit which is a shared neutral circuit
using opposite legs on two breakers and is recognized as OK under the
NEC.

For 220Vac, yes. For two 110V ckts, no.

If there is anything in the NEC that says the two sides of
the circuit can't go in different directions, I'd like to see it.

In practice, I've never been a big fan of Edison circuits for a
variety of reasons, but now that the NEC requires that the two
breakers be ganged together, it removes one of my previous main
concerns.

ONLY for 220V ckts. NOT any sort of 110V ckt!

I do believe we have a troll here. Go ahead and flail, it's your liver, not
mine.

Twayne





Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.

That advice I strongly agree with.



--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
John Grabowski typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice, however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage
that I only use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is
plugged into a GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off
the washer receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going on.
Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My first
thought is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being overloaded by
having two circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm thinking that
the two circuits are connected to a twin breaker and not a double
pole.

If it's a ganged breaker set approved for the panel, then it can only
connect to both sides of the line, resulting in 220 between the two output
screws. Two next to each other breakers in almost every panel made will give
the same results.


That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for the
furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each
conductor and determine what it is being used for. I would probably
start at the circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this
faster than you and identify everything that is not safe and code
compliant.
Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

With a conduit getting hot you prescribe troubleshooting? Nuh, uh! He needs
a pro and quickly. Else they could be searching thru basement rubble for
keepsakes rather soon.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects you're
completely ignorant of.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.

Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground!

Actually, it's much more likely to mean hysterisis heating. But you wouldn't
know that. Stick to giving advice on subjects you know something about (if
there are any). This isn't one of them.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers for
other people who might follow the advice.

Twayne, you have no idea what you're talking about. Google "Edison circuit" or
"multiwire branch circuit", and stop giving electrical advice. You're
completely ignorant.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situatioin unless you're trolling, too.


There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed.

Of course you can't cite it -- because (a) you don't know anything about
electricity, (b) you don't know the Code, and (c) it's not a Code violation.

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers
are intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as
you are using it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its entirety.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

Hmm. Refuses to go research the subject he's advising. Why
am I not reassured?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Twayne"
wrote in message
...


Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on
subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its
entirety.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situatioin unless you're trolling, too.


There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed.

Of course you can't cite it -- because (a) you don't know anything
about
electricity, (b) you don't know the Code, and (c) it's not a Code
violation.

Then perhaps you can cite something. Show me an Edison ckt in the NEC. Or
even in your local code books; I'm not fussy.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers
for other people who might follow the advice.

Twayne, you have no idea what you're talking about. Google "Edison
circuit" or "multiwire branch circuit", and stop giving electrical
advice. You're
completely ignorant.

Got reiteritus? Can't recall what you've already said? What about an
Edison ckt would you like to discuss? DC? AC? Audio noise? Symmetry?
Doubling the power of a 120Vac ckt? Where the number of neutrals define such
a ckt? Transverse & longitudinal loading? Maybe Differential mode? RF
filtering? The inherent dangers of working on an Edison ckt? Live Neutral,
dead Hot? Something in the ESH bulletins? Physics, so far, still holds on
this world and certain things are just going to happen based on other
things.
They all fit and are part of it. Because you're too thick to understand
the dangers of the OP's situation is your problem, not mine. Edison ckts are
inherently dangerous to humans working on them and when you consider the
other angles of the op's query, he's in a rather dangerous situation.
So I'd suggest that you are the one who needs to spend some time in
research to determine what your reaility really is.
Then of course you should stop trolling as food if going to become very
scarce and you'll never find a way to overcome your impotence here. If
ignorance is bliss, I see you must be a very happy person.


--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
Hmm. Refuses to go research the subject he's advising. Why
am I not reassured?

It is only the ignorant who decide what has not been displayed to them or
proven in any way. Your opinion does not create fact regadless of your
god-spam.


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Twayne"
wrote in message
...


Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on
subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its
entirety.

--



--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

On Fri, 25 Dec 2009 22:12:11 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers
for other people who might follow the advice.

Twayne, you have no idea what you're talking about. Google "Edison
circuit" or "multiwire branch circuit", and stop giving electrical
advice. You're
completely ignorant.

Got reiteritus? Can't recall what you've already said? What about an
Edison ckt would you like to discuss? DC? AC? Audio noise? Symmetry?
Doubling the power of a 120Vac ckt? Where the number of neutrals define such
a ckt? Transverse & longitudinal loading? Maybe Differential mode? RF
filtering? The inherent dangers of working on an Edison ckt? Live Neutral,
dead Hot? Something in the ESH bulletins? Physics, so far, still holds on
this world and certain things are just going to happen based on other
things.
They all fit and are part of it. Because you're too thick to understand
the dangers of the OP's situation is your problem, not mine. Edison ckts are
inherently dangerous to humans working on them and when you consider the
other angles of the op's query, he's in a rather dangerous situation.
So I'd suggest that you are the one who needs to spend some time in
research to determine what your reaility really is.
Then of course you should stop trolling as food if going to become very
scarce and you'll never find a way to overcome your impotence here. If
ignorance is bliss, I see you must be a very happy person.


You need to:
A) Start taking your prescription meds again or
B) Stop self medicating.

On Dec 25, 10:29*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , "Twayne" wrote:
,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole breakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situation unless you're trolling, too.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? *I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed.

Of course you can't cite it -- because (a) you don't know anything about
electricity, (b) you don't know the Code, and (c) it's not a Code violation.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Forget the insults. Something (anything) getting hot, as described, IS
NOT SAFE; whatever the reason.
And since none of us are there to see/check this either IS a troll or
the OP hasn't bothered to check back.
Almost impossible to diagnose by long distance.
Just hoping if this not a troll there will not be tragedy.

Not only not safe but some possibility electricity is being
expensively wasted! e.g going to ground????

BTW since this thread started we have, in this particular province of
Canada with a population of just over 500,000 persons had one
(electrical they think) fire that rendered a family's house
uninhabitable. Smoke damage etc. also ruined some/most of their
Christmas gifts.

In the meantime in another instance, a few weeks ago, a family who
were building a new home behind their existing but old home in a small
community had a fire (cause unknown but possibly electrical, in the
'old' house ). Following that many members of the community (plumbers,
carpenters, electricians etc.) are there on a volunteer basis over the
Christmas and New Year period helping to finish the new house to a
stage that is habitable. Was on local news with thanks to all those
helping out.

On Dec 25, 9:59*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
Doug Miller typed:





In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situatioin unless you're trolling, too.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? *I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed.

Of course you can't cite it -- because (a) you don't know anything
about
electricity, (b) you don't know the Code, and (c) it's not a Code
violation.

Then perhaps you can cite something. Show me an Edison ckt in the NEC. *Or
even in your local code books; I'm not fussy.

--

Stop making a fool of yourself and calling others, who are correct,
trolls. The NEC is not readily available online because they charge
for it and since on one else here is arguing Edison circuits are code
violation, YOU should do the search and you will learn. Just do a
google of this newsgroup and you will see many discussions on 120V
Edison circuits, which have been allowed under the NEC for a long
time. There was one here just a couple weeks ago.

In the last couple years, the code was revised so that the breakers
on the two legs must be tied together, Googling in the newsgroup
will show agreement to the above, including several licensed
electricians. Or you can go google Edison circuit on the web and find
plenty of info that shows it is allowed.

On Dec 25, 10:12*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
Doug Miller typed:





In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers
for other people who might follow the advice.

Twayne, you have no idea what you're talking about. Google "Edison
circuit" or "multiwire branch circuit", and stop giving electrical
advice. You're
completely ignorant.

Got reiteritus? *Can't recall what you've already said? *What about an
Edison ckt would you like to discuss? *DC? AC? Audio noise? Symmetry?
Doubling the power of a 120Vac ckt? Where the number of neutrals define such
a ckt? Transverse & longitudinal loading? *Maybe Differential mode? *RF
filtering? The inherent dangers of working on an Edison ckt? Live Neutral,
dead Hot? Something in the ESH bulletins? *Physics, so far, still holds on
this world and certain things are just going to happen based on other
things.
* *They all fit and are part of it. Because you're too thick to understand
the dangers of the OP's situation is your problem, not mine. Edison ckts are
inherently dangerous to humans working on them and when you consider the
other angles of the op's query, he's in a rather dangerous situation.

After filtering out all the total nonsense that you just interjected
into the discussion, you've finally hit on one thing that has some
truth. I agree, Edison circuits can be more dangerous for those
working on them, mainly those who have limited experience with
electricity. That is why the NEC now requires the breakers be
interconnected so one cannot be on without the other.

However the above is very different from coming in here calling Doug a
troll and claiming that 120V edison circuits are not allowed under the
NEC. That is totally wrong and shows that you are in fact clueless.
Do you see anyone else in this thread agreeing with you on that
claim? Hmmm? And I'd say someone clueless pretending to know what
he's talking about is far more dangerous than an Edison circuit.





* *So I'd suggest that you are the one who needs to spend some time in
research to determine what your reaility really is.
* *Then of course you should stop trolling as food if going to become very
scarce and you'll never find a way to overcome your impotence here. If
ignorance is bliss, I see you must be a very happy person.

On Dec 25, 4:38*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
fzbuilder typed:

Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
* That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! *

What he is describing is an Edsion circuit, aka shared neutral, and it
is completely compliant with the current code. Why not spend 5 mins
googling, instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself?






Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines. If I'm right AND it's installed properly,
the right one for you box, etc, then you will measure 220Vac between the two
breaker hots, which is its intended use.

Uh, huh and you will also measure 120V between either hot and the
shared neutrals. Which is why it's an Edison circuit.



So if one breaker is overloaded and tries to break, it's going to try to
take the other breaker with it, right? *That's where it becomes DANGEROUS!
If one breaker starts to heat up due to overload, it can't break the ckt
because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if
it's nice and cool. *So who knows how high the overload will have to get
before that overloaded breaker can overcome the non-overloaded breaker and
open, carrying the other one along with it. *Or IF it can even do so period?

It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on
providing power until something burns open. As you are seeing. *This could
not happen if it were a 220Vac appliance having the problem and it were
wired properly and to code.

If that were true, the same problem would exist with ANY double ganged
breaker, regardless of what it is hooked to.



It's easy enough to fix, IF the overloaded breaker hasn't been ruined by the
overloads! *Just remove the pin/screw, whatever that gangs the levers
together and allow them to operate on their own.

And now you've just told him to take an Edison circuit that completely
conforms to the current NEC and change it into one that does not.
Also, I'd say it's reckless to be telling him to change ANYTHING until
a qualified electrician actuall goes there and figures out what is
wrong.


* *A much better fix would be to replace the ganged breaker set with two
single breakers, since you're using them for 110Vac anyway. *If you need
220Vac, THEN use a ganged breaker, and ONLY for the 220 equipment.

however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Irrelevant, but; isn't the hot tub 220V? *Is this a case of mixing 110 and
220 on a ganged breaker? *Ouch! *Don't do that.

Clearly you're confused on this too. He made it clear the portable
hot tub is 120V, 20amps. Ever see a 220V hot tub that was only
20amps?







Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

If I've understood you properly, that's all explained by the preceding info
about ganged vs non-ganged breakers.

And even more stupidity. An Edison circuit, completely conforming to
the current NEC sure as hell doesn't explain what he is observing.
And again, suggesting that the simple cure is go to two seperate
breakers to fix a a serious fire hazard is stupid and reckless.
Let's add in that you didn't even tell him that if he screws around
with the existing ganged breakers he needs to make sure he keeps the
two breakers on OPPOSiITE phases or he will most definitely have
changed a code compliant Edison circuite into a fire trap.

Bottom line, once again, this guy needs to get a pro in and stop
listening to clueless posters who won't even do a simple google to
learn what an Edison circuit is.

On Dec 25, 10:13*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
Stormin Mormon typed:

Hmm. Refuses to go research the subject he's advising. Why
am I not reassured?

It is only the ignorant who decide what has not been displayed to them or
proven in any way. Your opinion does not create fact regadless of your
god-spam.


Twayne, why is it that there is not a single poster in this thread
that agrees with you that an Edison circuit with ganged breakers is
not code compliant? And facing that, why is it that you expect us to
do the simple googling that proves you are wrong. In fact, your
continued ranting and attacks, while handing out dangerous advice,
shows that you're not just wrong, but a complete imbecile.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers
are intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as
you are using it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its entirety.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a ganged 20A breaker to power two
120V circuits -- as you would learn if you took the time to educate yourself.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
typed:
On Dec 23, 11:37 pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

You need to re-read his situatioin unless you're trolling, too.


There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On ganged breakers? I can't cite it, but no, that's not allowed.

Of course you can't cite it -- because (a) you don't know anything about
electricity, (b) you don't know the Code, and (c) it's not a Code
violation.

Then perhaps you can cite something. Show me an Edison ckt in the NEC. Or
even in your local code books; I'm not fussy.

Here you go. The 2008 NEC is online at
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB

Multiwire branch circuits (aka Edison circuits) are described in Article 210.4

In article , wrote:
The NEC is not readily available online

Actually, it is.
2008 NEC is at http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB
2005 NEC is at http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7005SB

In article , "Twayne" wrote:

Because you're too thick to understand
the dangers of the OP's situation is your problem, not mine.

Twayne, the more you post on this topic, the more you look like an idiot. Read
the thread from the very beginning. *My* first post in the thread was maybe
the third response the OP received -- and the first four words of that post
are "Call an electrician NOW".

I understand the dangers of the OP's situation just fine -- what you fail to
understand is that there is no reason at all to suppose that his problems are
in any way related to an Edison circuit.

Edison ckts are
inherently dangerous to humans working on them

If you knew anything at all about the subject, you would know that's not true.
Tell me this: if Edison circuits are "inherently dangerous", why are they
permitted under both the NEC and the CEC?