Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:28:14 -0600, cjt wrote:
fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

Not only that, but unlrelated circuits should never be ganged.

In anycase, if the breaker is off and the conduit heats up then you
haven't shut off the correct circuit. Get an AC voltmeter and check
the lines going through the conduit. Better yet, hire somebody and do
it before your house burns to the ground.

AZ Nomad wrote:
On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 15:28:14 -0600, cjt wrote:
fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Perhaps you have a broken ground somewhere, and the route to ground via
the conduit (or wires inside it) is substituting.

While I can't surmise from what you've told us whether that's truly the
case, nor how the system is wired, it sounds dangerous to me. Stuff
shouldn't get hot.

Not only that, but unlrelated circuits should never be ganged.

In anycase, if the breaker is off and the conduit heats up then you
haven't shut off the correct circuit. Get an AC voltmeter and check
the lines going through the conduit. Better yet, hire somebody and do
it before your house burns to the ground.

I'm thinking that this might be an open neutral type situation, hence
the seemingly unrelated stuff getting hot?

In any case, I concur, this is not a problem that has a clear cut
troubleshooting flowchart based on what you posted, and is also capable
of burning your house down if not fixed ASAP. So get someone to look at
it, please.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

"fzbuilder" wrote in message
...
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Maybe if we had pictures of the setup, the wiring in the panel to the double
pole breaker, and any junction boxes in the system, opened and with wires
pulled out

In article , fzbuilder wrote:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

Call an electrician NOW. This is a very dangerous condition, and attempting to
diagnose it long-distance through the newsgroups is not likely to be
productive. This time of year, you need the furnace -- but that circuit should
not be turned back on until the problem has been found and fixed. Call an
electrician NOW.

First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

On Wed, 23 Dec 2009 13:56:58 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote:

First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.

If that is the case in North America something is DEFINITELY waired
wrong. With a ganged breaker, the neutral, if shared by two circuits,
would be share ONLY by the two circuits on the shared breaker.

And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

And it it IS, get it rewired properly YESTERDAY if not sooner.

In article , wrote:

And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

On Dec 24, 12:56*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.
Only a few miles from here three children died in a 2008 Christmas
season fire. (No smoke detectors or rehearsed procedure for getting
out). And yes; the cause was electrical.
That taken care of; then check your insurance policy. If a pre-
existing and known condition (over-heated wiring, whatever the basic
cause) causes say, a fire, some insurance companies may not honour the
policy! Quite apart from the risk to life!

On Dec 23, 11:37*pm, terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article , wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a point
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.

He's not a troll and exactly what is dangerous about this? What Doug
has described is an Edison circuit which is a shared neutral circuit
using opposite legs on two breakers and is recognized as OK under the
NEC. If there is anything in the NEC that says the two sides of
the circuit can't go in different directions, I'd like to see it.

In practice, I've never been a big fan of Edison circuits for a
variety of reasons, but now that the NEC requires that the two
breakers be ganged together, it removes one of my previous main
concerns.



Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.

That advice I strongly agree with.

In article , terry wrote:
On Dec 24, 12:56=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , .=
ca wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in different
parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be of the=
CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel to a p=
oint
some distance away, then splitting it out into two individual circuits th=
at go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?
Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.

Which is exactly what I advised the original poster, shortly after he posted
it. While others were dicking around trying to tell him what to look for, this
is what I wrote:

"Call an electrician NOW. This is a very dangerous condition."

*Do* try to keep up, eh?

In ,
terry typed:
On Dec 24, 12:56 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article ,
wrote:
And the double pole brakers can (and should) be used with split
receptacles, but NEVER with different circuits physically in
different parts of the house.

Piffle. That is *not* a requirement of the U.S. NEC -- it might be
of the CEC,
I don't know, but it's definitely not a requirement here.

There's nothing wrong with running a 3-wire circuit from the panel
to a point some distance away, then splitting it out into two
individual circuits that go
in opposite directions.

If this is not a troll?

Either that or someone very ignorant or who wishes to create dangers for
other people who might follow the advice.

Dangerous situation. And arguing about how to wire three wires at this
long distance not likely to fix.
Switch off and/or run the furnace some other way...................
until electrician arrives.
BUT GET SOMEONE THERE FAST (ASAP) to diagnose the problem and fix it.
Also check your smoke detectors and make sure everyone in the house
knows the escape routes.
Only a few miles from here three children died in a 2008 Christmas
season fire. (No smoke detectors or rehearsed procedure for getting
out). And yes; the cause was electrical.
That taken care of; then check your insurance policy. If a pre-
existing and known condition (over-heated wiring, whatever the basic
cause) causes say, a fire, some insurance companies may not honour the
policy! Quite apart from the risk to life!

Absolutely good information; and accurate to boot, except the ckts IMO need
to be permanently turned OFF until repaired by a Pro.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.

Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground! There should never
be any current in it under non-fault conditions and to get hot, it's a hell
of a LOT of current. I think there's more to it than those two breakers
unless it's the case that one ganged breaker cannot overcome the
non-overloaded one to open them up. Compliance labs routinely test conduit
for 60A withstand, measureing voltage across every joint encountered, and
the conduit never heated up. Something's awfully wrong and IMO very
DANGEROUS there.

Second, you should only have a double pole breaker for 220V circuits.
Although technically it will still work for seperate 110V circuits,
it's not proper practice.
Also you might have an Edison circuit, that is 2 circuits sharing 1
neutral, so its possible that even though you shut off 1 or 2 breakers
to a circuit, the neutral is still being used for your live circuit.
So the space heater you were using upstairs could be using the same
neutral for the circuits that you shut off. You need find out how your
lines were run, particularly in that junction box.

Thus it's a seriously miswired and dangerous ckt; agreed.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.

Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground!

Actually, it's much more likely to mean hysterisis heating. But you wouldn't
know that. Stick to giving advice on subjects you know something about (if
there are any). This isn't one of them.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground!

Actually, it's much more likely to mean hysterisis heating.

Huh? As in magnetic? What's being magnetized?

But you wouldn't
know that. Stick to giving advice on subjects you know something about (if
there are any). This isn't one of them.

cjt wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit
means there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground!

Actually, it's much more likely to mean hysterisis heating.

Huh? As in magnetic? What's being magnetized?

The OP mentioned loosening the conduit fitting and getting a spark.
That says to me that the conduit is carrying current.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

In article , lid wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In ,
Mikepier typed:
First, make sure you do not have 20A breakers on 14 guage wire. If you
do, change them to 15A breakers now. Thats what could be causing your
conduit to get hot.
Hot conduit is NOT a sign of wrong amperage breakers! Hot conduit means
there is a LOT of current trying to find earth ground!

Actually, it's much more likely to mean hysterisis heating.

Huh? As in magnetic? What's being magnetized?

The conduit, of course -- pretty easy to happen when the hot wire of a circuit
is inside a metal conduit, and the neutral isn't, or vice versa.

Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going on.
Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My first thought
is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being overloaded by having two
circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm thinking that the two circuits
are connected to a twin breaker and not a double pole.

That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for the
furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each conductor
and determine what it is being used for. I would probably start at the
circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this faster than you and
identify everything that is not safe and code compliant.

Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

In ,
John Grabowski typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice, however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage
that I only use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is
plugged into a GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off
the washer receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going on.
Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My first
thought is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being overloaded by
having two circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm thinking that
the two circuits are connected to a twin breaker and not a double
pole.

If it's a ganged breaker set approved for the panel, then it can only
connect to both sides of the line, resulting in 220 between the two output
screws. Two next to each other breakers in almost every panel made will give
the same results.


That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for the
furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each
conductor and determine what it is being used for. I would probably
start at the circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this
faster than you and identify everything that is not safe and code
compliant.
Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

With a conduit getting hot you prescribe troubleshooting? Nuh, uh! He needs
a pro and quickly. Else they could be searching thru basement rubble for
keepsakes rather soon.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
John Grabowski typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice, however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage
that I only use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is
plugged into a GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off
the washer receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going on.
Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My first
thought is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being overloaded by
having two circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm thinking that
the two circuits are connected to a twin breaker and not a double
pole.

If it's a ganged breaker set approved for the panel, then it can only
connect to both sides of the line, resulting in 220 between the two output
screws. Two next to each other breakers in almost every panel made will
give the same results.


*The OP said a double breaker. Since he is not an electrican that could
mean a two pole breaker or a twin breaker. A twin breaker has both loads
connected to the same buss and requires separate neutrals. If he has one
neutral for both loads on a twin breaker it can get very hot depending on
the loads and would not trip a breaker.

I agree that a pro is the best way to go, but some people will insist on
doing things themselves. I apologize for trying to be helpful.


That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for the
furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each
conductor and determine what it is being used for. I would probably
start at the circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this
faster than you and identify everything that is not safe and code
compliant.
Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

With a conduit getting hot you prescribe troubleshooting? Nuh, uh! He
needs a pro and quickly. Else they could be searching thru basement rubble
for keepsakes rather soon.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
John Grabowski typed:
"Twayne" wrote in message
...
In ,
John Grabowski typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice, however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my
garage that I only use when not using the washing machine. The hot
tub is plugged into a GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the
wall off the washer receptical that was installed before I moved
in. Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit
that comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it
stopped after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running
items from the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning
paint off the wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it
cooled down. It now gets hot with that breaker off and running a
space heater upstairs that is on another breaker. I have the
breaker off on the furnace and am stumped to what is going on or
how this my be wired. The conduit going to the furnace goes to a
junction box on the wall that has some sort of relay on the top of
it. Any help would be great. Thanks


*This is something I would need to see to figure out what is going
on. Obviously there is a problem or perhaps multiple problems. My
first thought is that perhaps the neutral conductor is being
overloaded by having two circuits on the same phase sharing it. I'm
thinking that the two circuits are connected to a twin breaker
and not a double pole.

If it's a ganged breaker set approved for the panel, then it can only
connect to both sides of the line, resulting in 220 between the two
output screws. Two next to each other breakers in almost every panel
made will give the same results.


*The OP said a double breaker. Since he is not an electrican that
could mean a two pole breaker or a twin breaker. A twin breaker has
both loads connected to the same buss and requires separate neutrals.
If he has one neutral for both loads on a twin breaker it can get
very hot depending on the loads and would not trip a breaker.

I agree that a pro is the best way to go, but some people will insist
on doing things themselves. I apologize for trying to be helpful.

No need to apologize John. You obviously know your stuff pretty well and
you've raised only salient points. I've seen posts from you in the past that
exhibit the same virtues, too. I haven't seen the OP respond anywhere, not
that I blame him now, and except for myself (I don't recall your previous
post; maybe you too) I'm about the only one who tried to allow for
differences in meanings of the OPs descriptions. The number of spoken and
non-spoken problems could well contain many different things due to the lack
of information. I may have made a mistake in that I didn't ASK direct
questions but instead tried to leave responses open ended for him.
For example the hot conduit: It takes a hell of a current to heat conduit,
assuming it's metal and not plastic, which wasn't mentioned but was assumed
to be metal. What length of conduit got hot? Was it just heat transfer from
the furnace? Or was it due to current flow? I kind of doubt current flow,
but ... it's not safe to ignore the possibility. And then the "double
breaker" clarification you pointed out; excellent point as the OP left the
audience to guess again. And then of course you have the egos and
narcissists who crawled out of their hiding places. It's interesting to see
how that happens but I assume it's something to do for them during their
holiday season. Some of them might not be very happy people.
Anyway, I'd think you were one of the last who should be apologizing; you
stayed on track from what I can see and added useful thoughts. Yes, I know
this will bring on more of the egoes and narcy's but they don't bother me. I
simply say what I mean and mean what I say, assuming I don't make too many
typosg.

Cheers,

Twayne`






That relay might be a transformer for the low voltage control for
the furnace.

You would need to start at one end or the other and identify each
conductor and determine what it is being used for. I would probably
start at the circuit breaker panel. An electrician could do this
faster than you and identify everything that is not safe and code
compliant.
Do you know if the previous homeowner did his own wiring?

With a conduit getting hot you prescribe troubleshooting? Nuh, uh!
He needs a pro and quickly. Else they could be searching thru
basement rubble for keepsakes rather soon.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.



--
--
Often you'll find excellent advice on a newsgroup.
Before you use that advice though, consider the
ramifications of it being wrong or even dangerous;
how important IS that to you?
ALWAYS verify and confirm ANY advice from a
newsgroup!

In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines. If I'm right AND it's installed properly,
the right one for you box, etc, then you will measure 220Vac between the two
breaker hots, which is its intended use.

So if one breaker is overloaded and tries to break, it's going to try to
take the other breaker with it, right? That's where it becomes DANGEROUS!
If one breaker starts to heat up due to overload, it can't break the ckt
because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if
it's nice and cool. So who knows how high the overload will have to get
before that overloaded breaker can overcome the non-overloaded breaker and
open, carrying the other one along with it. Or IF it can even do so period?
It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on
providing power until something burns open. As you are seeing. This could
not happen if it were a 220Vac appliance having the problem and it were
wired properly and to code.

It's easy enough to fix, IF the overloaded breaker hasn't been ruined by the
overloads! Just remove the pin/screw, whatever that gangs the levers
together and allow them to operate on their own.
A much better fix would be to replace the ganged breaker set with two
single breakers, since you're using them for 110Vac anyway. If you need
220Vac, THEN use a ganged breaker, and ONLY for the 220 equipment.

however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Irrelevant, but; isn't the hot tub 220V? Is this a case of mixing 110 and
220 on a ganged breaker? Ouch! Don't do that.


Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

If I've understood you properly, that's all explained by the preceding info
about ganged vs non-ganged breakers.

I hope you'll keep us advised,

Twayne

--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects you're
completely ignorant of.

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers
are intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as
you are using it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its entirety.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

Hmm. Refuses to go research the subject he's advising. Why
am I not reassured?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Twayne"
wrote in message
...


Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on
subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its
entirety.

--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In ,
Stormin Mormon typed:
Hmm. Refuses to go research the subject he's advising. Why
am I not reassured?

It is only the ignorant who decide what has not been displayed to them or
proven in any way. Your opinion does not create fact regadless of your
god-spam.


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"Twayne"
wrote in message
...


Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on
subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its
entirety.

--



--
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.

In article , "Twayne" wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! Such breakers
are intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as
you are using it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its entirety.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a ganged 20A breaker to power two
120V circuits -- as you would learn if you took the time to educate yourself.

In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In ,
Doug Miller typed:
In article , "Twayne"
wrote:
In
,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running
the washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard
practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT
standard practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous!
Such breakers are intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of
equpiment, NOT as you are using it, to provide two 110Vac lines.

Wrong. Google "Edison circuit". Then stop giving advice on subjects
you're
completely ignorant of.

Don't have to. Everything still stands as written in its entirety.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with using a ganged 20A breaker to
power two 120V circuits -- as you would learn if you took the time to
educate yourself.

Actually, I figured out just a few minutes ago what the discrepencies
between what I'm saying and what you guys are talking about are. I'd left a
voicemail for our local code enforcement officer and decided he wouldn't be
returning calls this late, but he did.
Once we got by his disdain for newsgroups, it turns out that our local
codes forbid the use of multi-wire branches. We're in far upstate NY state.
That does make me feel better since multi-wire branches look and sound, even
though there are advantages to using them, like they are dangerous. He
related the normal set of problems found 'round the 'net and a few others I
hadn't thought of. Apparently they're pretty easy to mis-install 220V or
110V wise; hadn't thought of that. And a few other sundries along the same
lines.
Sometimes I tend to forget that NEC isn't the last word; it's just a bible
of the minimums, so to speak. So your comment to "educate" myself is
backwards: I've been talking about OUR local codes, not specifically the NEC
so I am guilty of using an "over" educated viewpoint. Tim's not exactly a
personal friend but he is a close acquaintance; this is a small rural area.

Regards,

Twayne

--
--
Often you'll find excellent advice on a newsgroup.
Before you use that advice though, consider the
ramifications of it being wrong or even dangerous;
how important IS that to you?
ALWAYS verify and confirm ANY advice from a
newsgroup!

On Dec 25, 4:38*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
fzbuilder typed:

Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
* That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! *

What he is describing is an Edsion circuit, aka shared neutral, and it
is completely compliant with the current code. Why not spend 5 mins
googling, instead of continuing to make an ass of yourself?






Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines. If I'm right AND it's installed properly,
the right one for you box, etc, then you will measure 220Vac between the two
breaker hots, which is its intended use.

Uh, huh and you will also measure 120V between either hot and the
shared neutrals. Which is why it's an Edison circuit.



So if one breaker is overloaded and tries to break, it's going to try to
take the other breaker with it, right? *That's where it becomes DANGEROUS!
If one breaker starts to heat up due to overload, it can't break the ckt
because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if
it's nice and cool. *So who knows how high the overload will have to get
before that overloaded breaker can overcome the non-overloaded breaker and
open, carrying the other one along with it. *Or IF it can even do so period?

It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on
providing power until something burns open. As you are seeing. *This could
not happen if it were a 220Vac appliance having the problem and it were
wired properly and to code.

If that were true, the same problem would exist with ANY double ganged
breaker, regardless of what it is hooked to.



It's easy enough to fix, IF the overloaded breaker hasn't been ruined by the
overloads! *Just remove the pin/screw, whatever that gangs the levers
together and allow them to operate on their own.

And now you've just told him to take an Edison circuit that completely
conforms to the current NEC and change it into one that does not.
Also, I'd say it's reckless to be telling him to change ANYTHING until
a qualified electrician actuall goes there and figures out what is
wrong.


* *A much better fix would be to replace the ganged breaker set with two
single breakers, since you're using them for 110Vac anyway. *If you need
220Vac, THEN use a ganged breaker, and ONLY for the 220 equipment.

however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Irrelevant, but; isn't the hot tub 220V? *Is this a case of mixing 110 and
220 on a ganged breaker? *Ouch! *Don't do that.

Clearly you're confused on this too. He made it clear the portable
hot tub is 120V, 20amps. Ever see a 220V hot tub that was only
20amps?







Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

If I've understood you properly, that's all explained by the preceding info
about ganged vs non-ganged breakers.

And even more stupidity. An Edison circuit, completely conforming to
the current NEC sure as hell doesn't explain what he is observing.
And again, suggesting that the simple cure is go to two seperate
breakers to fix a a serious fire hazard is stupid and reckless.
Let's add in that you didn't even tell him that if he screws around
with the existing ganged breakers he needs to make sure he keeps the
two breakers on OPPOSiITE phases or he will most definitely have
changed a code compliant Edison circuite into a fire trap.

Bottom line, once again, this guy needs to get a pro in and stop
listening to clueless posters who won't even do a simple google to
learn what an Edison circuit is.

trader4@ wrote
"Twayne" wrote:
fzbuilder typed:

(snips)

If that were true, the same problem would exist with ANY double ganged
breaker, regardless of what it is hooked to.

Yup. I have the top 8 (4 on each side, has a little '30' showing) ganged in
sets of 2.

2/4- Dryer

1/3- Range (once electric, this one now relabeled Garage and runs a 240 for
previous owners power tools, left in 'off' position' except when a few
contractors needed it. Works fine when turned on)

5/7- HVAC

6/8- Old AC (a 240 outlet near the ceiling where once a wall 'whole house
AC' was, also 'off' but tests fine)

Nothing else is ganged but that doesnt mean it's not done but wrongly marked
(which is against code I gather). The few times and electrician worked on
our house though, they've not found any circuits that were not as they
should be, just that some are still older 2 prongs and to fix thse areas of
the house, they need to snake new wires (assume ground which is in place in
part of the house but not all?).

Due to lack of background experience, this is one thing Don and I do not
DIY. There's a time when it's best to get a professional. This is one of
them. We are sure all the bad stuff the Bos'un who owned the house before
us has been removed or *properly* dead ended (electrician used to check
all). What we need to do is fix the remaining ones to 3 prong *properly*
(system ready for it and about 2/3 of the house uses it) then have 4 lines
run to the back porch to properly handle a portion of the now dead ended
outlets out there. Foolish Bos'un had run 19 outlets off only 2 lines on
the back porch. They've been properly detached leaving only 4 correctly
done ones working.

Electrician said we have plenty of excess and don't even need to sub-panel
if that is all we want although that would be very easy. Apparently the
original 100 amp panel (in a bedroom closet, nothing hooked to it now) can
be easily re-vamped in which case he'd re-string all the back porch and
lights across the back of the house off it. What that sub-panel will do
apparently is let him easier (cheaper) add also more outlets to the kitchen
plus properly power even more of the detached 15 back porch outlets.

We are pondering options. No rush. Just looking over where we want new
outlets added (neither bathroom has an outlet).

On Dec 25, 1:38*pm, "Twayne" wrote:
,
fzbuilder typed:

Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,

110Vac appliances, right?

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right? Is
that what you mean?
* That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard
practice, and as you're discovering can be dangerous! *Such breakers are
intended to provide 220Vac to some piece of equpiment, NOT as you are using
it, to provide two 110Vac lines. If I'm right AND it's installed properly,
the right one for you box, etc, then you will measure 220Vac between the two
breaker hots, which is its intended use.

So if one breaker is overloaded and tries to break, it's going to try to
take the other breaker with it, right? *That's where it becomes DANGEROUS!
If one breaker starts to heat up due to overload, it can't break the ckt
because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if
it's nice and cool. *So who knows how high the overload will have to get
before that overloaded breaker can overcome the non-overloaded breaker and
open, carrying the other one along with it. *Or IF it can even do so period?
It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on
providing power until something burns open. As you are seeing. *This could
not happen if it were a 220Vac appliance having the problem and it were
wired properly and to code.

It's easy enough to fix, IF the overloaded breaker hasn't been ruined by the
overloads! *Just remove the pin/screw, whatever that gangs the levers
together and allow them to operate on their own.
* *A much better fix would be to replace the ganged breaker set with two
single breakers, since you're using them for 110Vac anyway. *If you need
220Vac, THEN use a ganged breaker, and ONLY for the 220 equipment.

however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Irrelevant, but; isn't the hot tub 220V? *Is this a case of mixing 110 and
220 on a ganged breaker? *Ouch! *Don't do that.



Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

If I've understood you properly, that's all explained by the preceding info
about ganged vs non-ganged breakers.

I hope you'll keep us advised,

Twayne

--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
*but we're still far away from
*yesterday's tomorrow.

Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an
electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured out
now that the junction box on the wall that has the conduit going to
the furnace is actually where the 115v comes in and ties off to the
furnace which is 115v. The little transformer on the front of the
junction box is for the door bell. I killed the power to the furnace
(which is on its own breaker) and the (2) 20 amp breakers that is
branched together and opened the box. My meter measured 0 volts. I hit
the breaker and got 115v so I felt confident this my power. I killed
the power and un-tied everything in the box and went around with my
meter and got 0v. I flipped back on the (2) 20amp breaker and re-
measured and still got 0. I went and turned on my hot tub (120v) and
then the box started buzzing and then the conduit started getting hot
again. I double checked that this is the only power source to my
furnace. So I turned off the hot tub. Went back measuring everything
and 0v. I am getting 2.4volt when I read the incoming neutral to
ground. Is that normal? I then proceed to to start to undo the
conduit from the top of the box on there was a spark . I am now
getting convinced this box is somehow screwed in the wall shorting
other wires going down the wall. Anything else to look for? I will
undo the pole connecting the (2) 20amp breakers as I am sure you right
that one can't pull the other and it should be tripping a breaker. I
will be keeping both breakers off till I get the guy out so stop with
call the guy yesterday please. I am the type that likes to figure
stuff out like a lot of us, but I will admit I am stumped.

"fzbuilder" wrote
"Twayne" wrote:

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to, right?
Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard

because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed, especially if

FZ, nice to see you are safe. Now keep safe and use the electricial. Twayne
here is really FAR off the bat.

It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome the
holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but simply keep on

Guffaw. Dangerous but funny stuff even *I* know better than.

Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an
electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured out

Electrician please and just turn off the hot tub and unplug. There's
something wrong but Twayne's advice is down right dangerous. Even the others
said get an electrician in. If not sure what a 'ganged circuit' is or how
to test it, this aint time to die learning how based on newsgroup nitwits
ok?

In ,
cshenk typed:
"fzbuilder" wrote
"Twayne" wrote:

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard

because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed,
especially if

FZ, nice to see you are safe. Now keep safe and use the electricial.
Twayne here is really FAR off the bat.

Nope, not at all. You must have a comprehension issue, too. That means you
don't get the proper meaning out of the words you read, in case it's too
tekkie for you.


It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome
the holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but
simply keep on

Guffaw. Dangerous but funny stuff even *I* know better than.

Definitely so with a ganged breaker, which you snipped. It's been proven
physically in fact.



Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an
electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured
out

Electrician please and just turn off the hot tub and unplug. There's
something wrong but Twayne's advice is down right dangerous. Even the
others said get an electrician in. If not sure what a 'ganged
circuit' is or how to test it, this aint time to die learning how
based on newsgroup nitwits ok?

So did I, you poor non-comprehending dufus. It's easy to make unsupported
statements. Like, I'm not so sure you ever even graduated from grade school.
Maroon is definitely your color.

--
--
Cats land on their feet.
but Toast lands PB side down;
A cat glued to some jelly toast will
hover in quantum indecision forever.

"Twayne" wrote

Nope, not at all. You must have a comprehension issue, too. That means
you don't get the proper meaning out of the words you read, in case it's
too tekkie for you.

Twayne, you lose and your best 'response' is childish insults.

Fortunately the guy listened to the rest and got in an electricain as the
rest of us were telling him to do.

You are dangerous.

On Mon, 28 Dec 2009 17:52:41 -0500, "Twayne"
wrote:

In ,
cshenk typed:
"fzbuilder" wrote
"Twayne" wrote:

A "ganged" 20A breaker? If one breaker resets, they both have to,
right? Is
that what you mean?
That's what it sounds like and definitely is non-code, NOT standard

because the other breaker ganged to it is holding it closed,
especially if

FZ, nice to see you are safe. Now keep safe and use the electricial.
Twayne here is really FAR off the bat.

Yes, he is "off the bat". For one thing, there is technically no such
thing as a "ganged breaker" - they are technically Double Pole
-"common trip" breakers - and if one side trips, unless someone has
tampered and put some kind of restraint on it, BOTH sides WILL trip.
If they don't, the breaker is defective.

There are also Twin breakers - or "thin-twins" that are NOT linked,
and NOT common trip, and can NOT be installed to supply 220 (or 230 or
240, whatever you want to cal it) They are supplied to get more
circuits into a panel and are illegat to use on split receptacles or
"edison" circuits under NEC2008.

Nope, not at all. You must have a comprehension issue, too. That means you
don't get the proper meaning out of the words you read, in case it's too
tekkie for you.


It's possible the overloaded breaker never will be able to overcome
the holding power of the other one, and maybe never open up but
simply keep on

Guffaw. Dangerous but funny stuff even *I* know better than.

Definitely so with a ganged breaker, which you snipped. It's been proven
physically in fact.



Hi Twayne, thanks to you all for your advice. I am having an
electrician on Monday come out if I can't fix this. I have figured
out

Electrician please and just turn off the hot tub and unplug. There's
something wrong but Twayne's advice is down right dangerous. Even the
others said get an electrician in. If not sure what a 'ganged
circuit' is or how to test it, this aint time to die learning how
based on newsgroup nitwits ok?

So did I, you poor non-comprehending dufus. It's easy to make unsupported
statements. Like, I'm not so sure you ever even graduated from grade school.
Maroon is definitely your color.

--

In ,
fzbuilder typed:
Hey Guys, I have a double 20 amp breaker that is connected to each
other. I have one side running the kitchen and one side running the
washing machine in the garage. I was told this is a standard practice,
however, I have a portable hot tub that I use in my garage that I only
use when not using the washing machine. The hot tub is plugged into a
GFCI outlet located about 5 feet down the wall off the washer
receptical that was installed before I moved in.

Here is the big problem, I have just noticed a piece of conduit that
comes off the furnace that was buzzing, getting hot and it stopped
after turning off the hot tub, the other day I was running items from
the kitchen and the conduit got so hot it was burning paint off the
wall. I shut off the double 20 amp breaker and it cooled down. It now
gets hot with that breaker off and running a space heater upstairs
that is on another breaker. I have the breaker off on the furnace and
am stumped to what is going on or how this my be wired. The conduit
going to the furnace goes to a junction box on the wall that has some
sort of relay on the top of it. Any help would be great. Thanks

PS - get a PRO in there ASAP!! And kill BOTH breakers and leave them OFF
until the electrician gets there to straighten things out. That's a VERY
DANGEROUS situation and a high saftey risk.

Twayne
--
We've already reached
tomorrow's yesterday
but we're still far away from
yesterday's tomorrow.