On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:39:07 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Now it is true that a lot of crap--boatloads of it, literally--does come
from that great country. We've all seen it, used it, chucked it out.

But bear in mind the historical precedent: some of you are probably old
enough to remember the similar tarring of anything that had the label
"Made in Japan" on it. Anything Japanese was considered worthless.
Compare to today.

I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
as anyone else in any other part of the world.

Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
*real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
[or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
"Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
faithful copies of a ****ty design that may well have come from some
designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
(the US of A).

I predict the Chinese are following the same arc that the Japanese did
after WWII, with variations, of course; there's no Marshall Plan, and
the countries are vastly different. Nonetheless, I can forsee the day
when "Made in China" is no longer a call for derision.

By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting who's
winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and astoundingly wrong
prediction about the Japanese and American photographic industries from
1946: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html


I think you are 100% correct. I was fortunate to be able to visit
China for a couple weeks with Chinese engineers and grad students as
hosts. They are VERY interested in doing things right and are very
proud of their country. They have a ways to go but it won't take them
long. We visited a road construction site where most of the heavy
equipment operators were hardly out of their teens. They were putting
in the curbing just prior to paving with asphalt. They had modern
survey instruments to maintain line and grade and were installing
large, but hand handlable and hand installed individual granite curb
stones that formed the gutter. The gutter line was perfect as was the
pavement when they were done. They also don't waste a lot of time and
effort on "environmental and archeological" salvage issues like we do
here. They just dig it up and rebury it. We could see the remains
of at least two prior iterations of roads buried several feet under
the current construction level. The US is almost assuredly on a long,
slow (best case) downhill slide due to over-regulation and
nannystateism.

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:13:18 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:12:26 -0500, "
wrote Re Rethinking "Made in China":

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece
of ****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Well, that's what the said about Japanese stuff in the late 50's. I
expect the same result from China.

They are on the way up, and we are on the way down.

Nope. They do what they do best; we do what we do best. Then we trade.
Everybody gains.

So what do we do best?
1. Grow stuff
2. Make movies
3. Design and build airplanes
4. Create software
5. Wage war
6. Other things



That would be fine if we had a balanced trade, but we run a huge
imbalance. They send us stuff and we print money to pay for it. Can't
go on much longer unless you want them to own the country.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:46:27 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:


wrote in message

Their style has varied so much, and so often, that it's pretty hard
to say you don't like their style as a reason to have never owned one
and to say you never will.

I'll own another Chrysler long before I'll own another GM!!!!!

Varied does not mean pleasing to my eyes in any variation. The Stratus was
not so bad and I even drove a rental on a trip, but I never cared for
anything else and did not like the Stratus enough to by one. Never cared for
the Dodge Charger that so many guys fawned over. The group they have now is
just plain ugly, IMO. Obviously, others like them or they never would have
made it out of the factory.

I like GM style, but that is about all they offer these days. I have a
deteriorating Buick in my driveway that I liked for the first 30,000 miles,
but things started going wrong.

Boy, you got a GOOD one!!

Best quality and most trouble free car I've
ever owned was my '07 Hyundai Sonata with 67,000 trouble free miles. Only
maintenance was 2 tires and oil changes. I just bought a '10 last week.
It will the last of the V-6 on Sonata.

Cheapest car I've ever bought was a '64 Karman Ghia convertible in 1975.
Paid $15 for it. Worth every penny too.

That's not hard. One good laugh is worth $15 today!!!!

Best resale value was a '64 Pontiac Tempest. Paid $100 for it, drove it for
a year, sold it back to the original owner for $100.

Most fun car was a '62 Corvair

Most expensive to both buy and maintain was '83 a Mercedes 300D

If you need to ask "how much" you know you can't afford it, The
purchace price of a Mercedes is just the "entry fee"

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:51:33 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:07:55 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:38:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
wrote:


Some of the best cars I ever owned were early Mopars. I've owned 53,
57, 63, 69, 74, 76, 85, 88, and now a 2002.
A real glutton for punishment I see.

Lew


Meh? My ideal driveway for "drive it forever" cars would be filled with
50's Studebakers, 60's MoPars, and 80's VWs.

Sadly, IMHO cars hve gone downhill since the 80's in terms of durability
and user serviceability.

nate
Definitely downhill on serviceability, but thankfully they require a
lot less.

I've had vehicles where I could climb right into the engine
compartment to work on them.

These people talking about old cars being more durable must be
youngsters. In the 1950's and 1960's, a car that lasted 100k and
remained in pretty good shape was a bit rare and worth mentioning.
Nowadays, you can buy a bottom of the line Toyota Corolla and expect
that if you keep up with oil changes, it will go 200K without major
trouble - and the body will still be intact.


My dad's '67 Cutlass had about 300K miles on it when he scrapped it -
and it still drove OK, but the frame was rusted above the rear axle.
Probably due to having been used in western PA its entire life.

nate
Here in Ontario 10 years was doing VERY well for the sixties era GM
midsise and up frames.

A unibody lasted a lot better.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:35:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"ktos" wrote in message
...
My next door neighbor has 2 Chryslers. Both cars sound like bombs
exploding when they start their cars.


I can still remember back in the 50's hearing our neighbor start his
'56 Dodge. It was a godawful sound very fitting for such an ugly car.
Remember the three-tone paint jobs available back then? Most every
maker had two-tone, but Dodge had to top them with three.

Over the past 48 years, I've owned many different brands of car, but
never anything from Chrysler. Nor will I ever. I still don't like
their style.

Were they using gear reduction starters that early?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_2OBC2d93g

that's a GOOD sound!

nate




The Mopar gear reduction starters drew a lot less current from
the battery if I remember correctly. A low battery would start
a Dart with a slant six but wouldn't start a Falcon with a six.

TDD
A gear reduction starter on a HEMI drew lwss power than a six cyl
Falcon!! And the Ford moveable shoe type starters needed a good
battery and excellent connections, or they wouldn't even TRY to crank.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:45:59 -0600, krw wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:35:09 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

Nate Nagel wrote:
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
"ktos" wrote in message
...
My next door neighbor has 2 Chryslers. Both cars sound like bombs
exploding when they start their cars.


I can still remember back in the 50's hearing our neighbor start his
'56 Dodge. It was a godawful sound very fitting for such an ugly car.
Remember the three-tone paint jobs available back then? Most every
maker had two-tone, but Dodge had to top them with three.

Over the past 48 years, I've owned many different brands of car, but
never anything from Chrysler. Nor will I ever. I still don't like
their style.

Were they using gear reduction starters that early?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_2OBC2d93g

that's a GOOD sound!

nate




The Mopar gear reduction starters drew a lot less current from
the battery if I remember correctly. A low battery would start
a Dart with a slant six but wouldn't start a Falcon with a six.

I found it didn't make much of a difference. The engine has to turn a
certain RPM to get a start thus a gear reduction starter (they all
are, really) had to turn faster to turn the engine over. In any case,
starting the car in cold weather is just as much function of engine
(et. al.) maintenance as it is the battery.

I had a 1946 Chevy CK pickup truck that I changed over to 12 Volt.
Changed everything except the starter motor. That 6 volt motor with 12
volts pumped into it cranked the engine so fast that there was no
worrry about burning out the starter. A quick tap on the starter pedal
and it was running.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 17:01:11 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2009-12-19, LDosser wrote:

And GM is cleaning up Saab ...

Did Saab really fall THAT FAR!?

My parents owned (later passed dwn to me) a '68 Saab Monte Carlo w/
the Ford designed V-4 engine. I've owned and driven a lot of GM iron
and have never seen anything even in the same parallel universe as
good as that old Saab. A brilliant car.

nb

They are out of business. That's about as far as they can fall, I
guess.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:49:36 GMT, notbob wrote:

On 2009-12-19, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

Cheapest car I've ever bought was a '64 Karman Ghia convertible in 1975.
Paid $15 for it. Worth every penny too.

We've seen most every brand represented but American Motors. In '73 I
bought a '60 Rambler American 2-dr with a brand new rebuilt flathead
straight six (1-barrel!) for $25. It was one of the most enjoyable
cars I've ever owned. Drove it for 5 yrs without a single problem.
Cruised effortlessly at 75mph and got 23mpg. When I bought it, it had
no driver's side window, yet the snowy OR Winters were no match for
the heater which would keep the interior at bread baking temps at
65mph in 20 deg F weather. It was 2 yrs before I got around to
replacing the window. If I could find a '60 station wagon version in
good shape, I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

http://jalopnik.com/5288930/1960-ram...merican-custom

nb
Talking AMC - Our family has had a few.

Dad bought a 61 American (ex Bell Canada) to use as a truck, then gave
it to my brother to drive. When he was finished with it, it became a
truck again, untill it was no longer fit for the road and my younger
brother used it as a "field car" for a couple years. He tried hard to
kill it, but couldn't. Dad also had a 64 Classic that was used as a
truck - and he gave it to one of his men to drive because it was
better than the heap he was hauling his family around in. Dad also
bought a brand new 1968 Rebel wagon.
I had a '65 classic that I bought for $65, drove for 6 months, and
sold for $300 when I left to go to Aftica in 1973. Then I had a 1975
Pacer for a few years, and a 1972 Ambassagor SST 9 passenger wagon.
Then there was the "pre-AMC" 1937 or 1938 Terraplane.

They were ALL good cars (with the exception of the "terrible pain")

I always liked the styling of the late '50s Ramblers.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 11:54:48 -0500, Jim Elbrecht
wrote:

wrote:


-snip-

These people talking about old cars being more durable must be
youngsters. In the 1950's and 1960's, a car that lasted 100k and
remained in pretty good shape was a bit rare and worth mentioning.

And it needed points & condenser every 2500 miles, distributor cap
every 10k, plugs 5-10K?, plug wires in 20k, oil & filter change every
3K, tires that lasted 20K were a miracle. . . . and it cost more to
buy one in real money.

I generally got 12K on points. The 170 Valiant ate spark plugs for
breakfast until I discovdered NipponDenso W25EPU plugs. They were
STONES as far as heat range goes - but they were the only plug I could
keep in that car for more than 2000 miles.

Nowadays, you can buy a bottom of the line Toyota Corolla and expect
that if you keep up with oil changes, it will go 200K without major
trouble - and the body will still be intact.

My daughter's 98 Grand Am just cracked the 200K mark-- and that little
4banger sounds and acts like a new one. And the body-- well, we
have replaced a fender that taught her not to drive too fast in the
snow- but other than that the body has been fine. Pretty good for a
car that spent its life in New York.

I remember having to have my 63 Impala painted in 1970 because the
body was covered in rust holes. And I was impressed that the 283 was
still good at 90k when the transmission died.

Yeah- they don't make 'em like they used to . . . and it is a good
thing they don't.

Jim

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:51:01 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:27:42 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Somebody wrote:
As long as we're bragging, my 1970 Ford Custom got 9mph.

'Course it had a police interceptor engine, a calibrated speedometer
up to
140, an 8-quart crankcase, and, believe it or not, a DELCO
alternator.


Police vehicle?

1970?

Delco alternator?

Very doubtful.

That was Leece-Neville business back then.

Lew


Could have been replaced with a Delco.
Except the Delco mounting brackets wouldn't fit a Ford wirhout MAJOR
reworking, and the L-N bolted right in.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 10:45:01 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:53:28 -0600, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 21:46:02 -0800, "LDosser"
wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "LDosser"
wrote:

I had several with the 225 slant six and one with the 318. Did most of my
own work on them and all tune ups. Only thing I didn't like was setting
the
points on the slant six (exhaust header burns on fore arm)
That'd be a pretty neat trick, considering that the distributor on a
slant-six
is half-way down the block on the passenger side, and the exhaust manifold
is
all the way at the top of the engine on the driver's side. You'd think
that
someone who'd done all that work on a slant-six would know where the
distributor is.
Long arms. They say memory is the first to go ... Anyone know what the hell
I was burning myself on?
The edge of the rocker cover and the side of the cyl head. Or the oil
filter.

I ALWAYS pulled the distributor to do points on Slant Sixes. ALWAYS
set to #1 TDC first too. And I did a LOT of them.

My 170 always had the points set on a distributor machine to be sure
there was no bounce or float at 6500 RPM - always used the Blue Streak
High Performance points - the only kind that wouldn't either bounce,
float, or break the spring. (206 RWHP through the push-button
automatic at 6000 RPM ( 60+ in first, 90+ in second, and bury the
speedo in third)
It's the only car I've ever owned that I could redline in top gear.
I built a 170 slant six that came out of a 64 Valiant and dropped it in
a 65 Dart. I installed a 3/4 race cam and found the biggest one barrel
Holly carburetor I could find and that car would do 60 in first and 100
in second by holding the shifter in gear. It blew the stock muffler off
so I installed one of those Thrush mufflers. I replaced the little 13"
wheels with a set of 14 inchers and found a set of Firestone Grand Prix
radial tires and a set of heavy duty shocks. I had to beat the lip of
the front fenders out a little so the tires wouldn't rub. The car would
take a corner so hard that it snapped a front hub out of a brake drum.
At a wrecking yard, I found these huge finned drums and spindles on a
V8 Dart and installed those which solved the breakage and braking
problem. The car had a single master cylinder, ditched that and got
a dual master cylinder from a van. What I loved about my Mopars is that
I could get parts from different models and mix and match. It was a lot
of fun. It's been about four decades since I had that six cylinder
terror but I miss it more than any of them.

TDD
Mine was in a '63 Valiant V100 Custom 4 door sedan. The rear springs
were sagged so I lowered the front torsion bars to level it and put in
the optional heavy duty shocks from the V* Formula S Cuda. Cornered
like it was on rails. Didn't matter what I put on it for exhaust,
within a week it sounded loud again - My parents could always hear me
coming down the hill into town unless I put it in neutral and let it
coast. Bottom end accelleration was pretty slow, but from 30 MPH
(about 3500RPM) up it was hard to catch!!! C70 13 tires handled the
road reasonably well - with studded snows in the winter.

Kid brother did up a 225 in a 65, with 2 barrel and split exhaust and
a fancy cam, 40 thou over, and it would burn rubber on takeoff, but
was about 20% slower at the top end. 104MPH was wound tight (about
5000 RPM)

That 170 was a short stroke screamer, it would turn high RPMs all day
long and refused to die.

TDD
The only times my 170 ran under 6 grand was on the way up!!!

wrote:

Cheapest car I've ever bought was a '64 Karman Ghia convertible in
1975. Paid $15 for it. Worth every penny too.

That's not hard. One good laugh is worth $15 today!!!!

When I bought it, the car did not run. We did get it going, but soon after
spent another $55 on rings and bearings, then it ran really well.

There was no heat because the ducting for heated air rusted out. I was
caught in a torrential rain on the PA Turnpike one day. Drove for some
miles and when I hit the brakes, it was like a tidal wave as the accumulated
water in the back floor rushed forward over my feet. The back plastic
window was pop riveted in place and fogged so that you could not see through
it.

With the help of my brother, we converted it to 12 volt. He took a GM Delco
alternator and had the shaft bored and threaded to go over the existing
shaft of the VW generator pulley in place of the nut. A bracket was
fabricated to keep the alternator body from spinning. All the bulbs wee
changed and a rheostat controlled the wiper motor. The starter, OTOH,
really cranked on 12V.

David N is just "rattlin' yo cage", pullin' yo chain, see if he can
getcha riled up.

Like many, he prolly had a dead dawg or cat from melamine poisoning
in pet food ingredients back in spring/summer '06.

And/or maybe his wife comments every evening "We gotta live in a house
smells like rotten eggs onaccounta your idiot Chinee drywall!" just
before she vomits on the rug.

And he knows that the melamine, H2S, etc were not dictated by
anything in the bloody, bloody USA.

But he makes a point. The Chinese aren't doing so bad with a lot of
things. They just go too fast sometimes.

They got no monopoly on cheap dumb junk/garbage. It's produced everywhere.
And if you doubt that, just take a look at the output of the alleged
US Congress and the media that allegedly reports on 'em.

AQ

On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:39:07 -0800, David Nebenzahl wrote:

This post is aimed at all you sinophobes out there.

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a piece of
****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Now it is true that a lot of crap--boatloads of it, literally--does come
from that great country. We've all seen it, used it, chucked it out.

But bear in mind the historical precedent: some of you are probably old
enough to remember the similar tarring of anything that had the label
"Made in Japan" on it. Anything Japanese was considered worthless.
Compare to today.

I'm finding more and more that "Made in China" really doesn't mean
anything about the quality of an item. Clearly, Chinese workers, as
underpaid as they may be, are quite capable of making anything as well
as anyone else in any other part of the world.

Part of the problem is that we're placing blame in the wrong place. The
*real* problem seems to be "Made in [anyplace] but designed in the U.S.
[or some other place]". A lot, if not most, of what I would call
"Chinese junk" is actually made as well as the design would allow for,
including the materials used and the amount of labor committed to
finishing the item. So in many cases Chinese factories are making
faithful copies of a ****ty design that may well have come from some
designer's computah right here in The Greatest Industrial Power on Earth
(the US of A).

I predict the Chinese are following the same arc that the Japanese did
after WWII, with variations, of course; there's no Marshall Plan, and
the countries are vastly different. Nonetheless, I can forsee the day
when "Made in China" is no longer a call for derision.

By way of showing just how wrong people can be when predicting who's
winning the industrial game, here's a hilariously and astoundingly wrong
prediction about the Japanese and American photographic industries from
1946: http://rick_oleson.tripod.com/index-136.html

"The monkey and the baboon was playing 7-up.
The monkey won the money but he scared to pick it up.
The monkey stumbled, mama.
The baboon fell.
The monkey grab the money and he run like hell!"
- from "Dirty Motherfuyer", Roosevelt Sykes, around 1935

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:23:41 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:51:01 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:27:42 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Somebody wrote:
As long as we're bragging, my 1970 Ford Custom got 9mph.

'Course it had a police interceptor engine, a calibrated speedometer
up to
140, an 8-quart crankcase, and, believe it or not, a DELCO
alternator.


Police vehicle?

1970?

Delco alternator?

Very doubtful.

That was Leece-Neville business back then.

Lew


Could have been replaced with a Delco.
Except the Delco mounting brackets wouldn't fit a Ford wirhout MAJOR
reworking, and the L-N bolted right in.

Still could have been replaced. I can imagine a small town with only 2
or 3 squad cars being in a hurry to get them back in service with
whatever they could get their hands on fastest.

Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD

The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD

Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to
drive that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with
it. (today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on
the Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

Ashton Crusher wrote:
On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 09:13:18 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Caesar Romano wrote:
On Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:12:26 -0500, "
wrote Re Rethinking "Made in China":

I'm getting a little tired of hearing the complaint "___ is a
piece of ****: what do you expect? It's made in China!".

Well, that's what the said about Japanese stuff in the late 50's. I
expect the same result from China.

They are on the way up, and we are on the way down.

Nope. They do what they do best; we do what we do best. Then we
trade. Everybody gains.

So what do we do best?
1. Grow stuff
2. Make movies
3. Design and build airplanes
4. Create software
5. Wage war
6. Other things



That would be fine if we had a balanced trade, but we run a huge
imbalance. They send us stuff and we print money to pay for it. Can't
go on much longer unless you want them to own the country.

It evens out. China has a trade deficit with India, and India has a deficit
with us.

As for China "owning the country," well, SOMEBODY has to own it!

Lew Hodgett wrote:
Somebody wrote:
As long as we're bragging, my 1970 Ford Custom got 9mph.

'Course it had a police interceptor engine, a calibrated speedometer
up to
140, an 8-quart crankcase, and, believe it or not, a DELCO
alternator.


Police vehicle?

1970?

Delco alternator?

Very doubtful.

That was Leece-Neville business back then.

Lew

I dunno. When I noticed it, I called the dealership. They told me Ford did
not have access to 100-amp alternators and equipped all their taxi and
police package vehicles with Delcos they bought from GM.

Nate Nagel wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less.
There are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD

Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to
drive that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with
it. (today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on
the Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate


I know what you mean, to go a long distance, you want a known quantity
or something that you know its quirks and things that have already
broken. I've had cars that I was so attuned to that I could tell when
some little thing was out of adjustment by the way the car sounded or
felt. Like tire pressure, you may feel a little vibration or a very
slight tug on the steering wheel when applying the brakes.

TDD

"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.

The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD

Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to drive
that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with it.
(today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on the
Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate


I used to work for a Peugeot dealer many years ago. Peugeots were not too
bad, for European made cars. They actually had quite a few American parts in
them. The power steering pumps were Saginaws, right out of Michigan. We ship
them to France, the French paint Peugeot on them and they then cost three
times as much. Go figure.Their diesel engines will self-destruct if you over
heat them even once, but they will last a long time otherwise. Their gas
engine cars are pigs - absolute pigs. The gas powered 604 was a disastor.
Today they make the Ion. Can't find a parking spot? No problem, pick the car
up, fold it a few times and stick it in your pocket. Don't ever leave it
parked on a hill because it will start rolling. Not rolling on the wheels,
but rolling like a ball

My all time favorite was the Citroen. Back in the 60s they were not allowed
on base because they were such unsafe pieces of sh*t.

Zootal wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD
Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to drive
that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with it.
(today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on the
Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate


I used to work for a Peugeot dealer many years ago. Peugeots were not too
bad, for European made cars. They actually had quite a few American parts in
them. The power steering pumps were Saginaws, right out of Michigan. We ship
them to France, the French paint Peugeot on them and they then cost three
times as much. Go figure.Their diesel engines will self-destruct if you over
heat them even once, but they will last a long time otherwise. Their gas
engine cars are pigs - absolute pigs. The gas powered 604 was a disastor.
Today they make the Ion. Can't find a parking spot? No problem, pick the car
up, fold it a few times and stick it in your pocket. Don't ever leave it
parked on a hill because it will start rolling. Not rolling on the wheels,
but rolling like a ball

My all time favorite was the Citroen. Back in the 60s they were not allowed
on base because they were such unsafe pieces of sh*t.



I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.

TDD

On Dec 19, 8:28*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Zootal wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
*Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. **snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD
Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) *I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. *If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to drive
that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with it.
(today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on the
Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate

I used to work for a Peugeot dealer many years ago. Peugeots were not too
bad, for European made cars. They actually had quite a few American parts in
them. The power steering pumps were Saginaws, right out of Michigan. We ship
them to France, the French paint Peugeot on them and they then cost three
times as much. Go figure.Their diesel engines will self-destruct if you over
heat them even once, but they will last a long time otherwise. Their gas
engine cars are pigs - absolute pigs. The gas powered 604 was a disastor.

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.


Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:06:44 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:

On Dec 19, 8:28Â*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Zootal wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Â*Swingman wrote:

Jules wrote:

They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. Â**snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

TDD
Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) Â*I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.

Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. Â*If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to drive
that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with it.
(today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on the
Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)

nate

I used to work for a Peugeot dealer many years ago. Peugeots were not too
bad, for European made cars. They actually had quite a few American parts in
them. The power steering pumps were Saginaws, right out of Michigan. We ship
them to France, the French paint Peugeot on them and they then cost three
times as much. Go figure.Their diesel engines will self-destruct if you over
heat them even once, but they will last a long time otherwise. Their gas
engine cars are pigs - absolute pigs. The gas powered 604 was a disastor.
Today they make the Ion. Can't find a parking spot? No problem, pick the car
up, fold it a few times and stick it in your pocket. Don't ever leave it
parked on a hill because it will start rolling. Not rolling on the wheels,
but rolling like a ball

My all time favorite was the Citroen. Back in the 60s they were not allowed
on base because they were such unsafe pieces of sh*t.

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.

TDD

Yup. Turbos
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...atoy/oOl93.jpg
When RR first started using the Hydramatic they thought they needed
to "clean it up a bit" so they did some modifications to bring it up
to RR standasrds - and it wouldn't shift worth squat. Apparently they
made some parts TOO SMOOTH. From then on they just used what "the
general" supplied - just like it went into a Chevy.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:08:54 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:23:41 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:51:01 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:27:42 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Somebody wrote:
As long as we're bragging, my 1970 Ford Custom got 9mph.

'Course it had a police interceptor engine, a calibrated speedometer
up to
140, an 8-quart crankcase, and, believe it or not, a DELCO
alternator.


Police vehicle?

1970?

Delco alternator?

Very doubtful.

That was Leece-Neville business back then.

Lew


Could have been replaced with a Delco.
Except the Delco mounting brackets wouldn't fit a Ford wirhout MAJOR
reworking, and the L-N bolted right in.

Still could have been replaced. I can imagine a small town with only 2
or 3 squad cars being in a hurry to get them back in service with
whatever they could get their hands on fastest.
Which in the case of the heavy duty alternators WOULD have been the
Leece Neville - They OWNED that market in those days. The 180 amp?
delcos were scarce as hen's teeth.

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 19:06:44 -0800 (PST), Robatoy
wrote:

On Dec 19, 8:28 pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Zootal wrote:
"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
The Daring Dufas wrote:
Smitty Two wrote:
In article ,
Swingman wrote:
Jules wrote:
They'll build what they're paid to build, no more and no less. There
are
talented folk there, same as anywhere else
They are excellent copy cats, but there is NOTHING like European
engineering for built-in quality, from handsaws and screwdrivers, to
spaceships.
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.
Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*
http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf
TDD
Odd then that I've had German cars as my daily drivers from roughly 1998
up until four years ago (when I got a company car.) I miss my cheap
German beaters, much higher quality and fewer annoyances than the brand
new American cars I've been driving since.
Still have the last of the beaters, a Porsche 944. If you told me I had
to be halfway across the country as soon as possible, I'd prefer to drive
that over the two year old Impala that shares driveway space with it.
(today, that would be an even easier choice as I have snow tires on the
Porsche but crappy all-seasons on the Impala)
nate
I used to work for a Peugeot dealer many years ago. Peugeots were not too
bad, for European made cars. They actually had quite a few American parts in
them. The power steering pumps were Saginaws, right out of Michigan. We ship
them to France, the French paint Peugeot on them and they then cost three
times as much. Go figure.Their diesel engines will self-destruct if you over
heat them even once, but they will last a long time otherwise. Their gas
engine cars are pigs - absolute pigs. The gas powered 604 was a disastor.
Today they make the Ion. Can't find a parking spot? No problem, pick the car
up, fold it a few times and stick it in your pocket. Don't ever leave it
parked on a hill because it will start rolling. Not rolling on the wheels,
but rolling like a ball
My all time favorite was the Citroen. Back in the 60s they were not allowed
on base because they were such unsafe pieces of sh*t.
I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.

TDD
Yup. Turbos
http://i123.photobucket.com/albums/o...atoy/oOl93.jpg
When RR first started using the Hydramatic they thought they needed
to "clean it up a bit" so they did some modifications to bring it up
to RR standasrds - and it wouldn't shift worth squat. Apparently they
made some parts TOO SMOOTH. From then on they just used what "the
general" supplied - just like it went into a Chevy.

I guess GM had already put in a million man hours and spent a billion
on R&D?

TDD

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:
I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.


Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.


Older Jags used the Detroit Gear DG-250 which was originally made for
Studebaker. Probably one of the best slushboxes ever made, although
still sacrilege in a Jag.

nate


--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:00:40 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.


Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.



RR, as well as Bentley, definitely used them. I remember seeing Rolls
Royces on the lift at my local Aamco transmission shop. It was the
same transmission used in GMC and Chevy pickup trucks and vehicles
such as the Chevy Suburban.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:23:20 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 16:08:54 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 15:23:41 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:51:01 -0500, wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 00:27:42 -0800, "Lew Hodgett"
wrote:

Somebody wrote:
As long as we're bragging, my 1970 Ford Custom got 9mph.

'Course it had a police interceptor engine, a calibrated speedometer
up to
140, an 8-quart crankcase, and, believe it or not, a DELCO
alternator.


Police vehicle?

1970?

Delco alternator?

Very doubtful.

That was Leece-Neville business back then.

Lew


Could have been replaced with a Delco.
Except the Delco mounting brackets wouldn't fit a Ford wirhout MAJOR
reworking, and the L-N bolted right in.

Still could have been replaced. I can imagine a small town with only 2
or 3 squad cars being in a hurry to get them back in service with
whatever they could get their hands on fastest.
Which in the case of the heavy duty alternators WOULD have been the
Leece Neville - They OWNED that market in those days. The 180 amp?
delcos were scarce as hen's teeth.

My scenerio remains very possible. Who says they replaced it with a
180 amp delco? I'm saying they did what they had to, to get the car
back in service ASAP. Or, who knows? Maybe the alternator failed just
before they were going to get rid of the car, and they put in the
cheapest thing they could graft in there. Adapting brackets would be
trivial.

A friend of mine had a Military Surplus Jeep that he bought at an
auction. The alternator was totally shot. An exact replacement
military alternator was $345. The Civilian alternator he installed
cost about $40. Was it the equal of the original? I sincerely doubt
it. But it got his Jeep through inspection and on the road.

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 19:45:08 -0600, krw wrote:

On Fri, 18 Dec 2009 08:25:17 -0600, Jules
wrote:

On Thu, 17 Dec 2009 17:51:01 -0600, Leon wrote:
"hot" water heater? I only need a "water heater". ;!) Iknow, I know, it
reheats relatively hot water, but would a hot water heater work if it were
full of cold water?

Define "cold". My water comes out of the ground at a pretty much constant
55 degrees year-round, and that's considerably hotter than freezing ;-)

Mine sure doesn't. There is a big change in the shower handle
position between summer and winter. When I lived in VT we were lucky
it came out liquid in the winter. ;-) The frost line often went down
7' and not all water lines did.

Yeah, that'd do it, I suppose. Our line's around 7-8' down and only goes
maybe 30' out to the well. Temp seems to stay pretty constant
year-round.

On 12/19/2009 23:00, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.


Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.



Friend used to own a Jaguar/MG dealership. Both were totally unreliable
vehicles because of the poor quality components they used. He was
constantly towing in new and relatively new Jaguars that broke down.
They were state owned for a long time. He told me about how he went over
to see the plants and they were still using antique/inefficient
equipment such as manually operated block and tackle etc to move
assemblies.

At some point (maybe when they were denationalized) they started using
GM transmissions and Delco electrical and A/C components.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:52:13 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

I was lamenting the loss of the car for a moment, but I think that's a
modern piece-of-**** BMW Mini under those flames, and thankfully not a
real Cooper ;-)

wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:00:40 -0500, "Ed Pawlowski"
wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:
I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.

Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.



RR, as well as Bentley, definitely used them. I remember seeing Rolls
Royces on the lift at my local Aamco transmission shop. It was the
same transmission used in GMC and Chevy pickup trucks and vehicles
such as the Chevy Suburban.


THM400, I believe, although it probably had to have a special case to
fit the RR bellhousing pattern.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 23:00:40 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.

Possible. Jaguar did.

And Jensen... far easier to buy a slushbox in from a country that
used them in the vast majority of vehicles, I suppose. Shame it
didn't work both ways and the US didn't import manual 'boxes from
Europe!

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:07:55 -0500, clare wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:38:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
wrote:


Some of the best cars I ever owned were early Mopars. I've owned 53,
57, 63, 69, 74, 76, 85, 88, and now a 2002.

A real glutton for punishment I see.

Lew



Meh? My ideal driveway for "drive it forever" cars would be filled with
50's Studebakers, 60's MoPars, and 80's VWs.

Sadly, IMHO cars hve gone downhill since the 80's in terms of durability
and user serviceability.

nate

Definitely downhill on serviceability, but thankfully they require a
lot less.

Yes, but they make up for it by often costing a small fortune when
something *does* go wrong...

.... plus I like keeping it simple; if something does go wrong when
I'm out in the middle of nowhere, there's more chance I can fix it
by the roadside in an older vehicle than a modern one. I like that
safety and convenience.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:11:45 -0600, Jules wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 18:52:13 -0600, The Daring Dufas wrote:
The Europeans have yet to make a reliable car.

Lookie what I just tripped over. A 4 wheeled self propelled British
bonfire. *snicker*

http://tinyurl.com/y8jrrhf

I was lamenting the loss of the car for a moment, but I think that's a
modern piece-of-**** BMW Mini under those flames, and thankfully not a
real Cooper ;-)

a real cooper would have a bigger oil puddle.

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:38:46 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:01Â*pm, notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-19, LDosser wrote:

And GM is cleaning up Saab ...

Did Saab really fall THAT FAR!?

My parents owned (later passed dwn to me) a '68 Saab Monte Carlo w/
the Ford designed V-4 engine. Â*I've owned and driven a lot of GM iron
and have never seen anything even in the same parallel universe as
good as that old Saab. Â*A brilliant car.

nb Â*


I have played. wrenched, hated and enjoyed a whole myriad of european
cars. When I lived in Toronto, I had a garage with a full-size pit.
(The next owner had to have it filled, residential bylaws and all that
****) A lot of co-workers and friends used it to change their oil and
worked on brakes, mufflers etc. One such co-worker had a love affair
with Saab. He had restored a two-stroke, that thing was a riot. It
went like stink (I think that's where the phrase originated as it
smelled quite bit with castrol racing oil in the gas)

Yeah, I can believe that. I've know quite a few folk with old Saabs, and
they were pretty reasonble cars.

A shame to see Saturn get reduced to Opels and then dropped
altogether.

Is there a direct comparison with models from the two? My father over in
England has a Vauxhall (essentially an Opel) Astra with a 6-speed manual
'box and whatever the largest engine is that they offer (I'd have to ask
him).

I borrowed and drove it as my daily driver for a few months before I moved
to the US (I'd sold my own cars) and it handled itself pretty well on
twisty roads, the 6-speed was pretty smooth, and the turbo on it was
surprisingly good (I'd always been wary about vehicles with turbos, but I
guess they've got better over the years).

I know Saturn offered a model with exactly the same body style (although
I couldn't care less about that - I generally dislike modern car styling)
- but I've no idea if they offered the same drivetrain.

cheers

Jules

Jules wrote:
On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:38:46 -0800, Robatoy wrote:

On Dec 19, 12:01 pm, notbob wrote:
On 2009-12-19, LDosser wrote:

And GM is cleaning up Saab ...
Did Saab really fall THAT FAR!?

My parents owned (later passed dwn to me) a '68 Saab Monte Carlo w/
the Ford designed V-4 engine. I've owned and driven a lot of GM iron
and have never seen anything even in the same parallel universe as
good as that old Saab. A brilliant car.

nb

I have played. wrenched, hated and enjoyed a whole myriad of european
cars. When I lived in Toronto, I had a garage with a full-size pit.
(The next owner had to have it filled, residential bylaws and all that
****) A lot of co-workers and friends used it to change their oil and
worked on brakes, mufflers etc. One such co-worker had a love affair
with Saab. He had restored a two-stroke, that thing was a riot. It
went like stink (I think that's where the phrase originated as it
smelled quite bit with castrol racing oil in the gas)

Yeah, I can believe that. I've know quite a few folk with old Saabs, and
they were pretty reasonble cars.

A shame to see Saturn get reduced to Opels and then dropped
altogether.

Is there a direct comparison with models from the two? My father over in
England has a Vauxhall (essentially an Opel) Astra with a 6-speed manual
'box and whatever the largest engine is that they offer (I'd have to ask
him).

I borrowed and drove it as my daily driver for a few months before I moved
to the US (I'd sold my own cars) and it handled itself pretty well on
twisty roads, the 6-speed was pretty smooth, and the turbo on it was
surprisingly good (I'd always been wary about vehicles with turbos, but I
guess they've got better over the years).

I know Saturn offered a model with exactly the same body style (although
I couldn't care less about that - I generally dislike modern car styling)
- but I've no idea if they offered the same drivetrain.

cheers

Jules

I've got a Saturn Astra that I bought recently. It's a horrible piece
of sh*t, IMHO. I don't expect to have it for long.

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 10:23:03 -0600, Jules
wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 09:07:55 -0500, clare wrote:

On Sat, 19 Dec 2009 08:38:28 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

Lew Hodgett wrote:
wrote:


Some of the best cars I ever owned were early Mopars. I've owned 53,
57, 63, 69, 74, 76, 85, 88, and now a 2002.

A real glutton for punishment I see.

Lew



Meh? My ideal driveway for "drive it forever" cars would be filled with
50's Studebakers, 60's MoPars, and 80's VWs.

Sadly, IMHO cars hve gone downhill since the 80's in terms of durability
and user serviceability.

nate

Definitely downhill on serviceability, but thankfully they require a
lot less.

Yes, but they make up for it by often costing a small fortune when
something *does* go wrong...

Not so much now. It's not like the '80s with the GM "computer
controlled" carburetors. I had to replace all of the spark coils (two
at a time - they wouldn't replace them all the first time) on the '00
Sable. It was a couple of hundred each time, but that's not so bad.

I did spend $3K on my '01 Ranger, but that was everything from breaks,
to break lines, transmission lines, radiator, and whatever. The
Vermont salt got to them and the Alabama summer finished them off.

... plus I like keeping it simple; if something does go wrong when
I'm out in the middle of nowhere, there's more chance I can fix it
by the roadside in an older vehicle than a modern one. I like that
safety and convenience.

The more chance you'll have to. I *like* fuel injection and all of
that. The only repairs I've ever had to make to a fuel injection
system was a leaking distribution rail in my Vision and that was under
a (silent) recall. My '78 Granada went through at least a carb a
year. While it was usually only $100 to fix, $100 was a lot more
money then and fuel on the windshield wasn't a nice feeling ("I don't
believe it's supposed to do that").

On Sun, 20 Dec 2009 11:09:19 -0500, George
wrote:

On 12/19/2009 23:00, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote:

I seem to recall something about Rolls Royce using GM automatic
transmissions.


Possible. Jaguar did. I fellow I used to work with was restoring a Jag and
bough a lot of parts fromt he GM dealer at half the price fromthe Jag
dealer.



Friend used to own a Jaguar/MG dealership. Both were totally unreliable
vehicles because of the poor quality components they used. He was
constantly towing in new and relatively new Jaguars that broke down.
They were state owned for a long time. He told me about how he went over
to see the plants and they were still using antique/inefficient
equipment such as manually operated block and tackle etc to move
assemblies.

They've always been unreliable POS, like all Brittish cars. Fun to
drive but were like a jet fighter to maintain (30:1 maintenance:drive
hours). "Lucas: The inventor of dark."

At some point (maybe when they were denationalized) they started using
GM transmissions and Delco electrical and A/C components.

You mean after Ford bought them? ;-)