On Oct 27, 11:22*am, terry wrote:
On Oct 27, 9:03*am, JIMMIE wrote:

On Oct 27, 7:46*am, "HeyBub" wrote:

JIMMIE wrote:

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldn't
happen.

Think heat.

LOL

Jimmie: I think the reason this thread has gone so long is that some
do not really understand current flow, especially AC (Alternating
Current) single phase and may be confusing current flow (amperes) with
power (watts/kilowatts).

In some countries also they have only two wires coming into a domestic
service (plus ground/earth). So they have a concept of only the two
wires of a single phase 230 volt service. One of which is neutral
(essentially at zero volts!) and the other at 230 volts (often 50
hertz) to neutral and ground. the size of those dermines the ampere
capacity of the service.

Was looking at distribution along a street in Malta; which was
attached to the face of the buildings. It comprised four wires. One of
which was ground/earth. I think it was green? One of the remaining
three was neutral. The other two were most likely 230+ and 230- as it
were of a single phase. Or they might have been two phases of a a 3
phase delta/star transformer sub-station secondary at end of the
street. The house services along the street were connected alternately
to these last two. In other words all services were two wire single
phase 230 volt, plus a ground/earth.

Again in one of the Gulf States it was also essentially *230 volts 50
hertz. BUT; in that instance there were the three phases and neutral
etc. coming into every residence unit and the circuit breaker panel or
CU (Consumer Unit) had three sections one for each phase. The fact
that there were some seven large 230 volt 50 hertz AC units in each
unit probaly required a heavy service! Residentially didn't see any 3
phase equipment although it could have been hooked up. It was mainly
UG.

Other areas of the world may vary; in Sri Lanka for example it was
hard to tell what was going on viewing some of the lash-ups on some of
the service poles!

Anyway the point of all this is that it's best to understand, no
matter where one is, what the electrical service arrangement is. Also
that with two wires (plus ground) *there can be no
doubt .................. a 200 amp service (or whatever it's rated) is
just that, 200 amps.

No more (unless overloaded) no less (subject to the recommended 80%
rule for prolonged use). Nothing magic about it!

Thank you. That's exactly what I've been saying all along.


Here's a circuit diagram of a fully loaded, balanced 200 amp service:



-------------- 240 volt source-----------
I I
a I I b
I I
I------------------2.4 ohmRes-----------I
I I
I-----1.2 ohmR-----1.2 ohmR--------I


How much current is flowing in the "service", which is through the
voltage source? 200 amps. It supporting one 240Volt 100 amp load
and two 120volt 100 amp loads. By every circuit concept I've ever
heard of there is but 2 amps flowing in the service cable here. Yet,
some would have you believe it 3 amps.

If we want to include the neutral then it looks like this:


+ -- + --
I------------120V----I-------120V---------
I I I
I I I
I I I
I-----1.2ohms------I--------1.2ohms---I
I I
I-------------------2.4 ohms---------------I


The service now consists of 3 wires. In this case, because it's
balanced no current is flowing in the neutral. You can unbalance it,
do anything you like and still with a 200 amp service there is only
200 amps flowing in, 200 amps flowing out. And it;s not a "parallel
circuit either as Doug has claimed.

On Oct 27, 2:04*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote:

On Oct 26, 7:18=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .=
com, wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:45=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How much power can be supplied by a 200A, 240V service? 24kVa, or 48kVA?

That's been asked an answered many times in this thread. It's 48,

Very good. Now divide 48kVA by 120V and tell me what you get.

Again, this has been answered here repeatedl, so I don't see why you
keep asking.. * One more time, it's obviously 400 amps.

Which is exactly what I've been telling you for the last four days: a 200A
240V service will support 400A of 120V loads. I'm glad you finally figured it
out.

That has never been in dispute. What has been is how many physical
amps are flowing in the service cable circuit of a 200 amp service?
Here's a hint: Try answering this simple physics question without
refering to voltage or power.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 7:18 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article
,
wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:45=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

Also, you only get those 400 amps if the load is balanced so that it
appears as a series load.

You're right. If the the two 120V loads are perfectly balanced, then it's
the equivalent to two 120V 0.6 ohm loads in series across 240V each pulling
200 amps, and you can disregard the neutral or even disconnect it. The
neutral is there to
hold the voltage on each leg or side to 120V when the loads aren't perfectly
balanced.

The 200 amp current flows in one hot and
out the other.

True

If you had a single 120V 400 amp load, it would sit
between one hot leg and neutral, where the capacity is limited to 200
amps and the cables would melt. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be
because the actual current in a 200 amp service circuit is only 200
amps?

No, the main breaker would open long before any melting

You can divide and get any answer you want. I could divide 48KVA by
10volts and get 4800 amps. So a 200 amp service could support a
total 4800 amp, 10 volt load too. But how much max current is
actually flowing in the service cable entering the house?

A whole bunch for a few microseconds. A breaker isn't instantaneous.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:
"Steve N." wrote in message

...







"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.) what do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service into 2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the Line 1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.


If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then
the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other, except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.

Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603 ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it. In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or 47.88kW


The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.

On Oct 27, 2:50*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 26, 7:18 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:45=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Also, you only get those 400 amps if the load is balanced so that it
appears as a series load.

You're right. If the the two 120V loads are perfectly balanced, then it's
the equivalent to two 120V 0.6 ohm loads in series across 240V each pulling
200 amps, and you can disregard the neutral or even disconnect it. The
neutral is there to
hold the voltage on each leg or side to 120V when the loads aren't perfectly
balanced.

*The 200 amp current flows in one hot and

out the other.

True

If you had a single 120V 400 amp load, it would sit
between one hot leg and neutral, where the capacity is limited to 200
amps and the cables would melt. * *Gee, I wonder why? * Could it be
because the actual current in a 200 amp service circuit is only 200
amps?

No, the main breaker would open long before any melting

Yes, I agree, assuming there is one. In our hypothetical case I was
ignoring any breakers.




You can divide and get any answer you want. * *I could divide 48KVA by
10volts and get 4800 amps. * So a 200 amp service could support a
total 4800 amp, 10 volt load too. * *But how much max current is
actually flowing in the service cable entering the house?

A whole bunch for a few microseconds. A breaker isn't instantaneous.

We have been discussing continous loads at the service max, not
transients. That 200 amp service can support a total load of 4800
amps at 10 volts, or 2400 amps at 20 volts. As I said before, you
can slice it and dice it anyway you want, but you still have 200 amps
max of current flowing in the service.

On Oct 27, 3:16*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:





"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
....
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.) what do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service into 2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the Line 1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other, except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. * *If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. *No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603 ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A or
399A, or? *It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.


In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of *47880W or 47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. * *Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 27, 2:50 pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 26, 7:18 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:45=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Also, you only get those 400 amps if the load is balanced so that it
appears as a series load.

You're right. If the the two 120V loads are perfectly balanced, then it's
the equivalent to two 120V 0.6 ohm loads in series across 240V each
pulling
200 amps, and you can disregard the neutral or even disconnect it. The
neutral is there to
hold the voltage on each leg or side to 120V when the loads aren't
perfectly
balanced.

The 200 amp current flows in one hot and

out the other.

True

If you had a single 120V 400 amp load, it would sit
between one hot leg and neutral, where the capacity is limited to 200
amps and the cables would melt. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be
because the actual current in a 200 amp service circuit is only 200
amps?

No, the main breaker would open long before any melting

Yes, I agree, assuming there is one. In our hypothetical case I was
ignoring any breakers.




You can divide and get any answer you want. I could divide 48KVA by
10volts and get 4800 amps. So a 200 amp service could support a
total 4800 amp, 10 volt load too. But how much max current is
actually flowing in the service cable entering the house?

A whole bunch for a few microseconds. A breaker isn't instantaneous.

We have been discussing continous loads at the service max, not
transients. That 200 amp service can support a total load of 4800
amps at 10 volts, or 2400 amps at 20 volts. As I said before, you
can slice it and dice it anyway you want, but you still have 200 amps
max of current flowing in the service.

200A thru each main-breakered leg - yes. But I'm not sure where the 4800A @
10V is coming from.
Do you think the transformer secondary windings will sustain at 4800A? Are
you now taliing about continuous or transient??

Small correction to my previous post, where I left out a couple of
zeros in the text.... Here'e the corrected version.


Here's a circuit diagram of a fully loaded, balanced 200 amp service:


-------------- 240 volt source-----------
I I
a I I b
I I
I------------------2.4 ohmRes-----------I
I I
I-----1.2 ohmR-----1.2 ohmR--------I


How much current is flowing in the "service", which is through the
voltage source? 200 amps. It supporting one 240Volt 100 amp load
and two 120volt 100 amp loads. By every circuit concept I've ever
heard of there is but 200 amps flowing in the service cable here.
Yet,
some would have you believe it 300 amps.


If we want to include the neutral then it looks like this:


+ -- + --
I------------120V----I-------120V---------
I I I
I I I
I I I
I-----1.2ohms------I--------1.2ohms---I
I I
I-------------------2.4 ohms---------------I


The service now consists of 3 wires. In this case, because it's
balanced no current is flowing in the neutral. You can unbalance it,
do anything you like and still with a 200 amp service there is only
200 amps flowing in, 200 amps flowing out. And it;s not a "parallel "
circuit either as Doug has claimed.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:





"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.) what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603 ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.


In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or 47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?

wrote in message
...
Small correction to my previous post, where I left out a couple of
zeros in the text.... Here'e the corrected version.


Here's a circuit diagram of a fully loaded, balanced 200 amp service:


-------------- 240 volt source-----------
I I
a I I b
I I
I------------------2.4 ohmRes-----------I
I I
I-----1.2 ohmR-----1.2 ohmR--------I


How much current is flowing in the "service", which is through the
voltage source? 200 amps. It supporting one 240Volt 100 amp load
and two 120volt 100 amp loads. By every circuit concept I've ever
heard of there is but 200 amps flowing in the service cable here.
Yet,
some would have you believe it 300 amps.


If we want to include the neutral then it looks like this:


+ -- + --
I------------120V----I-------120V---------
I I I
I I I
I I I
I-----1.2ohms------I--------1.2ohms---I
I I
I-------------------2.4 ohms---------------I


The service now consists of 3 wires. In this case, because it's
balanced no current is flowing in the neutral. You can unbalance it,
do anything you like and still with a 200 amp service there is only
200 amps flowing in, 200 amps flowing out. And it;s not a "parallel "
circuit either as Doug has claimed.



With balanced loads that's true. But what about the following with with
a 0.6 ohm load across L1 and the neutral, and NO load across L2 and the
neutral (an open).

L1 side L2 side
I000000000000000000000000000000000I The 00000s
represent trans. windings
I------120V----------I-------120V---------I
I I I
MB1= 200A main breaker Line 1 side
I I I
MB2= 200A main breaker Line 2 side
MB1 I MB2
I I I
I I I
I-----0.6ohms--------I------ ------I

There will be 200Amps down thru MB1 and thru the load and back up thru the
secondary winding using
one half of the transformer secondary winding.to form a circular loop..
There will be NO current thru MB2
because there is no current path.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

That was precisely my point. That to support a 400 amp 120V load,
the load must be perfectly balanced. And that is because only a max
of 200 amps is flowing in the service cable and the 400 amp, 120V load
must appear as two 200 amp, 120V loads in SERIES.

Two 200A 120V loads in series makes a 200A 240V load.

It's a very basic and simple electrical question as to how many amps
are flowing in that 200 amp service cable and it's 200 amps. You
could support all kinds of loads of varying voltages off it, including
400 amps at 120V, provided the load is perfectly balanced. I could

The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.


--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

That was precisely my point. That to support a 400 amp 120V load,
the load must be perfectly balanced. And that is because only a max
of 200 amps is flowing in the service cable and the 400 amp, 120V load
must appear as two 200 amp, 120V loads in SERIES.

Two 200A 120V loads in series makes a 200A 240V load.

It's a very basic and simple electrical question as to how many amps
are flowing in that 200 amp service cable and it's 200 amps. You
could support all kinds of loads of varying voltages off it, including
400 amps at 120V, provided the load is perfectly balanced. I could

The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

That was precisely my point. That to support a 400 amp 120V load,
the load must be perfectly balanced. And that is because only a max
of 200 amps is flowing in the service cable and the 400 amp, 120V load
must appear as two 200 amp, 120V loads in SERIES.

Two 200A 120V loads in series makes a 200A 240V load.

It's a very basic and simple electrical question as to how many amps
are flowing in that 200 amp service cable and it's 200 amps. You
could support all kinds of loads of varying voltages off it, including
400 amps at 120V, provided the load is perfectly balanced. I could

The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.


--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

On Oct 27, 8:36*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,

wrote:
That was precisely my point. * That to support a 400 amp 120V load,
the load must be perfectly balanced. * And that is because only a max
of 200 amps is flowing in the service cable and the 400 amp, 120V load
must appear as two 200 amp, 120V loads in SERIES.

Two 200A 120V loads in series makes a 200A 240V load.

It's a very basic and simple electrical question as to how many amps
are flowing in that 200 amp service cable and it's 200 amps. * You
could support all kinds of loads of varying voltages off it, including
400 amps at 120V, provided the load is perfectly balanced. *I could

The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 08:27:24 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,

wrote:
That was precisely my point. * That to support a 400 amp 120V load,
the load must be perfectly balanced. * And that is because only a max
of 200 amps is flowing in the service cable and the 400 amp, 120V load
must appear as two 200 amp, 120V loads in SERIES.

Two 200A 120V loads in series makes a 200A 240V load.

It's a very basic and simple electrical question as to how many amps
are flowing in that 200 amp service cable and it's 200 amps. * You
could support all kinds of loads of varying voltages off it, including
400 amps at 120V, provided the load is perfectly balanced. *I could

The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.



I think we are in agreement, except for perhaps one point.

From your previous post, you clearly agree that you can in fact have
two 120volt, 200 amp loads connected in series across the 240volt
service. That is a perfectly balanced load. You now have 200 amps
flowing in series through each load. In my world that is in fact
"supporting" 400 amps of 120volt load. Lets say I had forty 10 amp,
120volt heaters. I could could clearly put twenty of them between one
leg and neutral and twenty between the other leg and neutral and it
would work. You now have a fully loaded balanced service. There
is zero current flowing in the neutral and 200 amps flowing in the
service. It works because the loads on one side are connected in
series to the loads on the other side.

My whole point all along has been that the actual current in a 200
amps service is limited to 200 amps which clearly you agee with.
And it has nothing to do with "parallel circuits", or power, voltage
or anything else. It looks like the only difference we have is your
definition of "supporting loads" may be stricter than mine.

And I think all of us are still waiting for a simple answer from Doug
as to how many amps are actually flowing in a fully loaded 200 amp
service cable circuit. I've asked that several times now and still
have no answer, despite having fully answered all his questions.




--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. *Thanks!

On Oct 27, 3:16*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:





"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
....
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.) what do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service into 2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the Line 1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other, except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. * *If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. *No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603 ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A or
399A, or? *It's all in how you look at it. In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of *47880W or 47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. * *Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes. You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side. And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. Nothing flows in the neutral. Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

On Oct 27, 6:13*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.) what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker. In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603 ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. *Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. * You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. * *The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. * You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? * 1 amp. * *Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. * The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. * *For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. * *So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. * How much
current is flowing in *this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or 47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. * There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. * The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.



What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's 200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

On Oct 27, 5:56*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:50 pm, "Steve N." wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Oct 26, 7:18 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

In article
,
wrote:

On Oct 25, 2:45=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
Also, you only get those 400 amps if the load is balanced so that it
appears as a series load.

You're right. If the the two 120V loads are perfectly balanced, then it's
the equivalent to two 120V 0.6 ohm loads in series across 240V each
pulling
200 amps, and you can disregard the neutral or even disconnect it. The
neutral is there to
hold the voltage on each leg or side to 120V when the loads aren't
perfectly
balanced.

The 200 amp current flows in one hot and

out the other.

True

If you had a single 120V 400 amp load, it would sit
between one hot leg and neutral, where the capacity is limited to 200
amps and the cables would melt. Gee, I wonder why? Could it be
because the actual current in a 200 amp service circuit is only 200
amps?

No, the main breaker would open long before any melting

Yes, I agree, assuming there is one. * In our hypothetical case I was
ignoring any breakers.



You can divide and get any answer you want. I could divide 48KVA by
10volts and get 4800 amps. So a 200 amp service could support a
total 4800 amp, 10 volt load too. But how much max current is
actually flowing in the service cable entering the house?

A whole bunch for a few microseconds. A breaker isn't instantaneous.
We have been discussing continous loads at the service max, not
transients. * That 200 amp service can support a total load of 4800
amps at 10 volts, or 2400 amps at 20 volts. * As I said before, you
can slice it and dice it anyway you want, but you still have 200 amps
max of current flowing in the service.

200A thru each main-breakered leg - yes. But I'm not sure where the 4800A @
10V is coming from.
Do you think the transformer secondary windings will sustain at 4800A? Are
you now taliing about continuous or transient??- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Take twenty four .05 ohm resistors. Wire them is series. In series
they equal 1.2 ohms, Connect them across the 240V, 200 amp service
hot lines. You now have 10 volts across each resistor and 200 amps
flowing through the circuit. So, you're supporting twenty four 200
amp, 10volt loads. Each resistor sees 10volts and 200 amps. Taken
together that's 4800A at 10V. How much current is flowing in the
service? Still 200 amps. Showing once again that this feature works
because to get loads of more than 200 amps out of a 200 amp service,
the loads have to appear in series.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 02:24:20 -0700 (PDT), in alt.home.repair,
wrote:

On Oct 27, 8:36=A0pm, wrote:
The only way you can get 400A out of a 200A service is with a step-down
transformer.

I think we are in agreement, except for perhaps one point.

From your previous post, you clearly agree that you can in fact have
two 120volt, 200 amp loads connected in series across the 240volt
service. That is a perfectly balanced load. You now have 200 amps
flowing in series through each load. In my world that is in fact
"supporting" 400 amps of 120volt load.

Your semantics create confusion. In NO CASE can you flow more than 200 amps
through any single load. To say that you have many 120V loads drawing a
total of 400A is WRONG and obscures the fact that two balanced 120V loads is
absolutely identical to a 240V load.

--
Due to Usenet spam, emailed replies must pass an intelligence test: if
you want me to read your reply, be sure to include this line of text in
your email, but remove this line before sending, otherwise my filters
will delete your email with all due prejudice. Thanks!

In article
,
wrote:

And I think all of us are still waiting for a simple answer from Doug
as to how many amps are actually flowing in a fully loaded 200 amp
service cable circuit. I've asked that several times now and still
have no answer, despite having fully answered all his questions.

You've done a terrific job debating this, and you've explained it better
than I could have. I bowed out early on for two reasons: One reason was
that I have limited patience for explaining things to people who
stubbornly defend their own ignorance. The second reason is that I
really am not thoroughly conversant in residential wiring schemes. You
clearly know a lot more about that than I do.

As far as Doug, I'd trust him to install, upgrade, maintain, or repair
any wiring in my house, anytime. I consider him one of the groups
foremost NEC experts, and he clearly knows everything he needs to know
to work with residential wiring at any level.

But, and I mean no disrespect for him, it's very clear to me from this
thread and others, that he doesn't understand electric circuit
fundamentals at all. His grasp of ohm's law, series vs. parallel vs.
series-parallel, etc., is shaky at best. You've brought up our pal
Kirchoff on several occasions, and I'd bet a cup of designer coffee that
Doug has never heard of the fellow.

Now, I don't hold ignorance against a man. What does raise an eyebrow is
when someone who doesn't understand something, declines to acknowledge
that, puffing up his chest and blundering confidently along, refusing to
stand corrected. Damn the torpedoes. At this juncture I'm not insisting
on putting Doug or anyone else in those shoes. Let each man evaluate his
own stance. But I do have my opinions about it.

As for the intent of the OP's question, I've yet to really understand
it, though I'm sure the thread has strayed beyond what he might have
wanted to know. I've learned some things along the way as I've lurked,
which is good.

wrote in message
...
On Oct 27, 6:13 pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:





wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.)
what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service
into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is
controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents
will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker
is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker.
In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that
shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the
Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side
of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru
the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding
thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current
thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603
ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A
or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or
47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral
that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.



What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's 200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

But you still didn't answer the question about the current flow path. If you
have a 120V 200A load between Line 1 & neutral,and no load between Line 2 &
neutral, how much current flows thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker,
how much current flows thru the Line 2 side of the main breaker, and how
much thru the neutral?

On Oct 28, 12:49*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 6:13 pm, "Steve N." wrote:



wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.)
what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service
into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is
controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents
will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the breaker
is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker..
In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that
shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the
Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side
of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru
the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding
thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current
thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding. Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603
ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker, and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it 200A
or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or
47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral
that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.



What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. * Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. * As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's *200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. * The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. * If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

But you still didn't answer the question about the current flow path. If you
have a *120V 200A load between Line 1 & neutral,and no load between Line 2 &
neutral, how much current flows thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker,
how much current flows thru the Line 2 side of the main breaker, and how
much thru the neutral?

There will be 0 amps in the neutral. The loads form two legs of a
balanced bridge, the windings in the transformer form the other two
legs, When they are balancedas you described therer will be ZERO
current in the neutral. Dont believe me check it for yourself. Make a
test circuit out of two 100 watt light bulbs connected in series, put
them across a 240VAC connection with no neutral connection then
connect the neutral between them. Measure the current in the neutral.
It will be ZERO. measure the current in each hot leg. The neutral is
only there to carry the difference between the two legs when there is
an imbalance. If the current in one leg was 100 amps and the the other
had 50 amps the neutral current would be 100 -50 + 50 amps.. When the
load is balanced and you measure the current in each leg you are just
measuring the same current twice.

Jimmie

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 28, 12:49 pm, "Steve N." wrote:
wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 6:13 pm, "Steve N." wrote:



wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.)
what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service
into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is
controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents
will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the
breaker
is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker.
In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug
you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that
shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that
is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads
across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're
only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the
Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side
of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru
the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the
secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding
thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current
thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding.
Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and
back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603
ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker,
and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it
200A
or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or
47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the
transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral
that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.



What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A
going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's 200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

But you still didn't answer the question about the current flow path. If
you
have a 120V 200A load between Line 1 & neutral,and no load between Line 2
&
neutral, how much current flows thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker,
how much current flows thru the Line 2 side of the main breaker, and how
much thru the neutral?

There will be 0 amps in the neutral. The loads form two legs of a
balanced bridge, the windings in the transformer form the other two
legs, When they are balancedas you described therer will be ZERO
current in the neutral. Dont believe me check it for yourself. Make a
test circuit out of two 100 watt light bulbs connected in series, put
them across a 240VAC connection with no neutral connection then
connect the neutral between them. Measure the current in the neutral.
It will be ZERO. measure the current in each hot leg. The neutral is
only there to carry the difference between the two legs when there is
an imbalance. If the current in one leg was 100 amps and the the other
had 50 amps the neutral current would be 100 -50 + 50 amps.. When the
load is balanced and you measure the current in each leg you are just
measuring the same current twice.

Re-read the question. I'm asking about a SINGLE 120V 200A load between Line
1 & neutral, not 2 loads in series across 240V.

wrote:

Yes. You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.

To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. Nothing flows in the neutral. Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:

Yes. * You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. * Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. * Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. * *In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. * You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.

To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

*And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. *Nothing flows in the neutral. * *Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?

On Oct 28, 3:59*pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, bud-- wrote:





wrote:

Yes. * You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. * Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. * Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. * *In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. * You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.

To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

*And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. *Nothing flows in the neutral. * *Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. * IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. *If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. *Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. * *The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, if the load is balanced there is no 120 volt loads just 240s. 240
X 20 also equal 48KW.

If what you were saying is true you could hang your ammeter on the
neutral line and measure 400 amps.

It doesnt just appear to be a 240 volt 200 amp load IT IS. The two
loads are in series, same electrons going through both of them. Its
not fair to count electrons twice.

Jimmie

On Oct 28, 4:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Oct 28, 3:59*pm, wrote:





On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, bud-- wrote:

wrote:

Yes. * You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. * Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. * Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. * *In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. * You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.

To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

*And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. *Nothing flows in the neutral. * *Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. * IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. *If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. *Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. * *The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, if the load is balanced there is no 120 volt loads just 240s. 240
X 20 also equal 48KW.

If what you were saying is true you could hang your ammeter on the
neutral line and measure 400 amps.

It doesnt just appear to be a 240 volt 200 amp load IT IS. The two
loads are in series, same electrons going through both of them. Its
not fair to count electrons twice.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I'm not counting electrons twice. Neither is Bud. I take 200 amps
worth of 120Volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off of
one hot leg of the 240Volt 200 amp service. I take 200 amps worth
of 120volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off the
second hot leg. I am now supporting 400 amps of 120volt loads.
It doesn't get any more basic than that. I agree the current is
flowing in series and is actually a 240Volt total load and the service
is running 200 amps. That is what I have been saying all along when
others were saying that you have conductors in parallel, a second
conductor carrying more current, etc. But from any reasonable
perspective, if I can plug 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt into the
house, then I am in fact driving those loads.

If the homeowner asked you how many amps worth of 120Volt eqpt is the
max that the 200 amp service can support, what would your answer be?

On Oct 28, 11:40*am, Smitty Two wrote:
In article
,

wrote:
And I think all of us are still waiting for a simple answer from Doug
as to how many amps are actually flowing in a fully loaded 200 amp
service cable circuit. * I've asked that several times now and still
have no answer, despite having fully answered all his questions.

You've done a terrific job debating this, and you've explained it better
than I could have. I bowed out early on for two reasons: One reason was
that I have limited patience for explaining things to people who
stubbornly defend their own ignorance. The second reason is that I
really am not thoroughly conversant in residential wiring schemes. You
clearly know a lot more about that than I do.

As far as Doug, I'd trust him to install, upgrade, maintain, or repair
any wiring in my house, anytime. I consider him one of the groups
foremost NEC experts, and he clearly knows everything he needs to know
to work with residential wiring at any level.

But, and I mean no disrespect for him, it's very clear to me from this
thread and others, that he doesn't understand electric circuit
fundamentals at all. His grasp of ohm's law, series vs. parallel vs.
series-parallel, etc., is shaky at best. You've brought up our pal
Kirchoff on several occasions, and I'd bet a cup of designer coffee that
Doug has never heard of the fellow.

Now, I don't hold ignorance against a man. What does raise an eyebrow is
when someone who doesn't understand something, declines to acknowledge
that, puffing up his chest and blundering confidently along, refusing to
stand corrected. Damn the torpedoes. At this juncture I'm not insisting
on putting Doug or anyone else in those shoes. Let each man evaluate his
own stance. But I do have my opinions about it.

As for the intent of the OP's question, I've yet to really understand
it, though I'm sure the thread has strayed beyond what he might have
wanted to know. I've learned some things along the way as I've lurked,
which is good.

Thanks for the kind words Smitty.

On Oct 28, 5:43*pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 4:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. * IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. *If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. *Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. * *The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, if the load is balanced there is no 120 volt loads just 240s. 240
X 20 also equal 48KW.

If what you were saying is true you could hang your ammeter on the
neutral line and measure 400 amps.

It doesnt just appear to be a 240 volt 200 amp load IT IS. The two
loads are in series, same electrons going through both of them. Its
not fair to count electrons twice.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not counting electrons twice. * Neither is Bud. * I take 200 amps
worth of 120Volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off of
one hot leg of the 240Volt 200 amp service. * * I take 200 amps worth
of 120volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off the
second hot leg. * * I am now supporting 400 amps of 120volt loads.
It doesn't get any more basic than that. * I agree the current is
flowing in series and is actually a 240Volt total load and the service
is running 200 amps. *That is what I have been saying all along when
others were saying that you have conductors in parallel, a second
conductor carrying more current, etc. * But from any reasonable
perspective, if I can plug 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt into the
house, then I am in fact driving those loads.

If the homeowner asked you how many amps worth of 120Volt eqpt is the
max that the 200 amp service can support, what would your answer be?- Hide quoted text -


By the way, are you the same Jimmie that posted this a while back?

"Assume you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker
will handle that is 120 volts X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you
again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is
240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400
amps.
I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of 400 amps at
120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads
from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes "


So, now how come when I say the max 120v load that a 200 amp service
can supply is 400 amps and then if and only if the load is perfectly
balanced, you say NO?

If the homeowner asked you how many amps worth of 120Volt eqpt is the
max that the 200 amp service can support, what would your answer be?-

On Oct 28, 5:43*pm, wrote:
On Oct 28, 4:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:





On Oct 28, 3:59*pm, wrote:

On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, bud-- wrote:

wrote:

Yes. * You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. * Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. * Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. * *In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. * You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.

And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.

To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

*And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. *Nothing flows in the neutral. * *Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.

What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. * IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. *If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. *Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. * *The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

No, if the load is balanced there is no 120 volt loads just 240s. 240
X 20 also equal 48KW.

If what you were saying is true you could hang your ammeter on the
neutral line and measure 400 amps.

It doesnt just appear to be a 240 volt 200 amp load IT IS. The two
loads are in series, same electrons going through both of them. Its
not fair to count electrons twice.

Jimmie- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I'm not counting electrons twice. * Neither is Bud. * I take 200 amps
worth of 120Volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off of
one hot leg of the 240Volt 200 amp service. * * I take 200 amps worth
of 120volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off the
second hot leg. * * I am now supporting 400 amps of 120volt loads.
It doesn't get any more basic than that. * I agree the current is
flowing in series and is actually a 240Volt total load and the service
is running 200 amps. *That is what I have been saying all along when
others were saying that you have conductors in parallel, a second
conductor carrying more current, etc. * But from any reasonable
perspective, if I can plug 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt into the
house, then I am in fact driving those loads.

If the homeowner asked you how many amps worth of 120Volt eqpt is the
max that the 200 amp service can support, what would your answer be?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

200 AMPS, 200 amps x 240 volts also equals 48000 watts. I suggest you
post this to one of the engineering groups. This is a classic question
that has been in electical course for years. Ive been thru three such
courses in the last 22 years and havent missed the question yet. One
course was for power distribution, one was for HVAC and the other was
for power generation.

And yes you are counting electrons twice. And your perspective is
wrong because the loads are not across 120, there return path is not
through the neutral. You have 2 120vac loads connected in series
across 240 vac.

Jimmie

This thread will go for ever with no satisfying conclusion because of the
talk about AMPS instead of
Volt Amps or Watts.

On Oct 28, 7:24*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
This thread will go for ever with no satisfying conclusion because of the
talk about AMPS instead of
Volt Amps or Watts.

You can have 1000 watts with 1 volt and 1000 amps or you can have 1000
watts at 1000 volts and 1 amp. If you follow your logic the power
distrubution boxes would be the same.

Jimmie

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:24:13 -0500, Steve N. wrote:
This thread will go for ever with no satisfying conclusion because of the
talk about AMPS instead of
Volt Amps or Watts.


Panel capacity isn't measured in VA or watts. If the connections in a panel
have enough resistance to cause significant power dissipation then you will very
very quickly have burned out connections.

A panel can easily carry enough current for a 10KW load, but if there is
so much as 0.05KW of power dissipation inside a connection in the panel, you'll
quickly have a burned out connection.

On Oct 28, 7:24*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
This thread will go for ever with no satisfying conclusion because of the
talk about AMPS instead of
Volt Amps or Watts.

Where have you ever seen a panel rated in VA or WATTS?

Jimmie

On Oct 28, 7:00*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Oct 28, 5:43*pm, wrote:

I'm not counting electrons twice. * Neither is Bud. * I take 200 amps
worth of 120Volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off of
one hot leg of the 240Volt 200 amp service. * * I take 200 amps worth
of 120volt eqpt and plug it into outlets that are driven off the
second hot leg. * * I am now supporting 400 amps of 120volt loads.
It doesn't get any more basic than that. * I agree the current is
flowing in series and is actually a 240Volt total load and the service
is running 200 amps. *That is what I have been saying all along when
others were saying that you have conductors in parallel, a second
conductor carrying more current, etc. * But from any reasonable
perspective, if I can plug 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt into the
house, then I am in fact driving those loads.

If the homeowner asked you how many amps worth of 120Volt eqpt is the
max that the 200 amp service can support, what would your answer be?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

200 AMPS, *

Wrong.



200 amps x 240 volts also equals 48000 watts. I suggest you
post this to one of the engineering groups. This is a classic question
that has been in electical course for years. Ive been thru three such
courses in the last 22 years and havent missed the question yet. One
course was for power distribution, one was for HVAC and the other was
for power generation.


And I have a degree in electrical engineering from MIT and I say you
are nuts. The homeowner brings home twenty 20 amp 120 volt
heaters. He connects half of them to outlets on one side of the
service. He connects half of them to outlets on the other side of
the service. He now is unquestionably supporting 400 amps of
120volt load. It doesnt' get any simpler than that. In fact, I
think everyone in the entire thread except you would agree with the
above. Sure it is because it works as a series circuit and appears
at the service point as a 240volt, 200 amp load. Everyone knows
that. But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going
through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power

Accoridng to your answer above, what would the homeowner do? If he
listened to your answer, the homeowner could only buy and connect ten
of those 20 amp heaters, because he can only support 200 amps at
120volts.

And aren't you the same Jimmie that posted this back in the beginning
of the thread?

"Assume you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker
will handle that is 120 volts X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you
again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is
240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400
amps.
I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of 400 amps at
120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads
from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes "

Yet, now you say it aint' so.




And yes you are counting electrons twice. And your perspective is
wrong because the loads are not across 120, there return path is not
through the neutral. You have 2 120vac loads connected in series
across 240 vac.


The homeowner can bring home 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and plug
it in and it works. Any place in the universe, that means the
service is supporting 400 amps of 120volt load.

In fact, that is exactly what you said in your own post, which I
showed above.

On Oct 29, 1:33*pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:37 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:

Yes. * You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. * Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. * Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. * *In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. * You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.
And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.
To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

*And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. *Nothing flows in the neutral. * *Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.
What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. * IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. *If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. *Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. * *The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?

Yup.

Have fun with JIMMIE.
Surprising how a simple question is so controversial.

Yes, it sure is. Even more so when Jimmie is on both sides,
essentially arguing against his own post.


I don't see the series argument as particularly interesting, but maybe
again POV.
In a slight tangent, if you have a 200A 3-phase 120/208V Y panel and
load A-phase at 200A 120V, B-phase at 200A 120V, and C-phase at zero,
you will have 400A connected 120V load and a 200A neutral current.

The same is true with a single phase panel fed by 2 legs of a 3-phase
supply. I believe you can get that in large apartment complexes that
have a 3-phase service.

And I hesitate to say it again, but I understood Doug to have said the
same thing as in the previous 2 posts. I think he used "parallel" once,
which I understood to mean "combined" (200+200), as applied to the 120V
loads. I don't remember he ever other wise implied there was 400A in the
neutral.

--
bud--- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that
there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. I
freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a
straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever
be flowing in the service cable. And in trying to evade the question
he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question
of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable.

wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:37 pm, bud-- wrote:
wrote:

Yes. You have a 3 wire service cable coming into the house. Use
Kirchoff's law and add up the current coming into the house at any
point in time under any conditions through that cable any you have a
max of 200 amps. Add up all the current leaving the house at the
same point in time and you have a max of 200 amps. In my world,
that's a 200 amp service. You don't measure 300, or 400 by counting
electrons twice.
And also, to support a max of 400 amps of 120volt load in the house
which is the hot topic, you have to have the special case where the
loads are perfectly balanced so that 200 amps is on each side.
To get the max of 200A of 240V load you have to have the special case
where the loads add up to 200A. The discussion is about the special
cases of a fully loaded service.

And
then you in fact have a SINGLE circuit with 200 amps flowing in on one
hot leg, throught the loads in series, and back out the other hot
leg. Nothing flows in the neutral. Again, in my world, that's 200
amps flowing in the service, not 400.
What did the OP want to know?
IMHO, the OP was asking how many amps of 120V load you can hang on a
200A 240V service. The correct answer is 400.

--
bud--

The correct answer is actually 400 amps of 120volt load IF THE LOAD IS
PERFECTLY BALANCED. IF it's anything less than perfectly balanced,
you can not support 400amps of load. If it's totally unbalanced, you
only get 200 amps.. Partially ballanced, you get between 200 and
400. The only way you can get 400 is if it is perfectly balanced so
that the 120volt loads are in SERIES and appear as a 200 amp 240volt
load.

Agree?

Yup.

Have fun with JIMMIE.
Surprising how a simple question is so controversial.

I don't see the series argument as particularly interesting, but maybe
again POV.
In a slight tangent, if you have a 200A 3-phase 120/208V Y panel and
load A-phase at 200A 120V, B-phase at 200A 120V, and C-phase at zero,
you will have 400A connected 120V load and a 200A neutral current.

The same is true with a single phase panel fed by 2 legs of a 3-phase
supply. I believe you can get that in large apartment complexes that
have a 3-phase service.

And I hesitate to say it again, but I understood Doug to have said the
same thing as in the previous 2 posts. I think he used "parallel" once,
which I understood to mean "combined" (200+200), as applied to the 120V
loads. I don't remember he ever other wise implied there was 400A in the
neutral.

--
bud--

wrote:
On Oct 28, 7:00 pm, JIMMIE wrote:

I suggest you
post this to one of the engineering groups. This is a classic question
that has been in electical course for years. Ive been thru three such
courses in the last 22 years and havent missed the question yet.


And I have a degree in electrical engineering from MIT

What a coincidence. I have a degree in electrical engineering from the
(university of) Minnesota Institute of Technology too.

and I say you
are nuts.

What a coincidence. I think he is nuts too.

And aren't you the same Jimmie that posted this back in the beginning
of the thread?

Hey - that's not fair.


In fact, that is exactly what you said in your own post, which I
showed above.


Why would you use such an underhanded tactic to ruin a perfectly good
argument?

--
bud--

On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
"JIMMIE" wrote in message

...
On Oct 28, 12:49 pm, "Steve N." wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 6:13 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.)
what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service
into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is
controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents
will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the
breaker
is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker.
In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug
you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that
shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that
is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads
across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're
only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the
Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side
of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru
the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the
secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding
thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current
thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding.
Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and
back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603
ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker,
and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it
200A
or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or
47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the
transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral
that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.

What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A
going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's 200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

But you still didn't answer the question about the current flow path. If
you
have a 120V 200A load between Line 1 & neutral,and no load between Line 2
&
neutral, how much current flows thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker,
how much current flows thru the Line 2 side of the main breaker, and how
much thru the neutral?
There will be 0 amps in the neutral. The loads form two legs of a
balanced bridge, the windings in the transformer form the other two
legs, When they are balancedas you described therer will be ZERO
current in the neutral. Dont believe me check it for yourself. Make a
test circuit out of two 100 watt light bulbs connected in series, put
them across a 240VAC connection with no neutral connection then
connect the neutral between them. Measure the current in the neutral.
It will be ZERO. measure the current in each hot leg. The neutral is
only there to carry the difference between the two legs when there is
an imbalance. If the current in one leg was 100 amps and the the other
had 50 amps the neutral current would be 100 -50 + 50 amps.. When the
load is balanced and you measure the current in each leg you are just
measuring the same current twice.

Re-read the question. I'm asking about a SINGLE 120V 200A load between Line
1 & neutral, not 2 loads in series across 240V.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Doesnt matter if there is no current flow in the neutral, Quit trying
to reason what you dont understand and build a mock up circuit if this
really concerns you that much. I am growing very bored of talking to
people who are more interested in defending their argument than
actually trying to learn something. Any decent text that explains
Kerchov's(sp?) Law as applied to AC circuits will give you the answer.

Jimmie

On Oct 28, 1:37*pm, "Steve N." wrote:
"JIMMIE" wrote in message

...
On Oct 28, 12:49 pm, "Steve N." wrote:





wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 6:13 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

....
On Oct 27, 3:16 pm, "Steve N." wrote:

wrote in message

...
On Oct 27, 2:37 am, "Steve N." wrote:

"Steve N." wrote in message

...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
On Oct 26, 10:37 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , Sam E
wrote:
If all the loads supplied by that service are 120V loads (e.g.
blender,
toaster, light bulbs, range hood, stereo, TV, computer, etc.)
what
do
you get
when you divide that maximum power by 120V?

That would be 400A.

Exactly so.

Of course that's only in your imagination since
the math is invalid (120V is obtained by splitting the service
into
2
separate halves, each of which is only 24KW).

200A each. Total of 400A of 120V loads -- as you said.

Where in the box can you measure 400 amps? If the panel is
controlling
48KW there will be no current on the neutral because the currents
will
be balanced. The current that flows through one half of the
breaker
is
the same current that flows through the other half of the breaker.
In
this case what you have is two 200 amp breakers in series. Doug
you
have more current coming into the box than going out and that
shouldnt
happen.

The power is coming in from a transformer secondary winding that
is
center-tapped. Let's call the 3 wires
Line 1, the neutral & Line 2 (seee the link below that shows a
transformer
secondary at the bottom of the page). When you put 120V loads
across
Line
1 & neutral, they are independent of Line 2. In effect, you're
only
using
half of the transformer secondary, so you're only going thru the
Line
1
half of the main breaker. The current path is from the Line 1 side
of
the
secondary winding, thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker, thru
the
load, and back thru the neutral to the Line 1 half of the
secondary
winding.

Agree.

If you also put a 120V load across Line 2 and the neutral, then

the current path is from the Line 2 side of the secondary winding
thru
the
Line 2 side of the main breaker, thru the load, and back thru the
neutral
(in the opposite direction of current flow of the Line 1 current
thru
the
neutral) and back to the Line 2 side of the secondary winding.
Both
loads
form their own circular loops that are independent of each other,
except
for sharing the neutral (in opposite directions) to complete their
separate circuits.
Don't agree with this. If the second load on line 2 is equal to the
load already on line 1, then the current flow is in on line 1 and
back
out on line 2. No current flows in the neutral.

OK, you're right. If they're perfectly balanced. So lets make the Line
1-to-neutral load
a 200A load (0.6 ohms), and the Line 2-to-neutral load 199A (0.603
ohms).
Now we have an unbalanced current of
1 amp thru the neutral.So we have 200A thru one side of the breaker,
and
199A thru the other side. So what's the total amperage now?? Is it
200A
or
399A, or? It's all in how you look at it.

No, it not. Once again, the physical current in the service cable is
200 amps. You have 200 amps flowing IN on one hot, 199 flowing OUT
on the other hot and 1 amp flowing OUT on the neutral. The current
flowing in that circuit is 200 amps. You don't count current twice.

How much current is flowing in a simple 120W light bulb plugged into a
120Volt outlet? 1 amp. Now simply add another single wire in
parallel with one of those supplying the light bulb. The current
will be split now, with some part of it going via one wire, some via
the other. For sake of argument, let;s assume it just splits
evenly. So, now you have 1 amp coming in on one wire, 1/2 amp
leaving via one wire, 1/2 amp leaving via the second wire. How much
current is flowing in this "service" circuit to the light bulb?
There is no confusion, it's 1 amp.

It's a simple matter of applying Kirchoffs law.

In the end ,it's a matter of
total energy or kW.
200A x 120V=24000W & 199A x 120V= 23880W for a total of 47880W or
47.88kW

The key here is look at that service cable coming from the
transformer
and you have a circuit running a max of 200 amps. Agree?

With a perfectly balanced load - yes, one circuit. With a slightly
unbalanced load - then, two circuits.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
Balanced or unbalanced matters not a wit. There is still a current
of 200 amps coming and going either way. The only difference balance
makes is which PATH that 200 amp current takes.

Umm...so you're saying that if you have a 200A load on Line1to neutral
that
you're going to have 200A going thru both sides of the 200A breaker
regardless of the load on the Line 2 to neutral side??

No, never said that.

What if you have a 200A load on the Line 1 to neutral side, and nothing
loading the Line 2 to neutral side? Are you still going to have 200A
going
thru each "leg" of the main breaker?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You're going to have 200A flowing from Line 1 to neutral. Again,
that is 200 amps flowing in the service cable. As I said, if it's
fully loaded, you will have a max of 200 amps flowing in the service
cable. That's 200 amps coming in, 200 amps going out. The only
difference is whether some of the current flows on the neutral or
not. If the neutral has some current, then one of the hot lines must
have less than 200 amps or you'd violate Kirchoff's law.

But you still didn't answer the question about the current flow path. If
you
have a 120V 200A load between Line 1 & neutral,and no load between Line 2
&
neutral, how much current flows thru the Line 1 side of the main breaker,
how much current flows thru the Line 2 side of the main breaker, and how
much thru the neutral?
There will be 0 amps in the neutral. The loads form two legs of a
balanced bridge, the windings in the transformer form the other two
legs, When they are balancedas you described therer will be ZERO
current in the neutral. Dont believe me check it for yourself. Make a
test circuit out of two 100 watt light bulbs connected in series, put
them across a 240VAC connection with no neutral connection then
connect the neutral between them. Measure the current in the neutral.
It will be ZERO. measure the current in each hot leg. The neutral is
only there to carry the difference between the two legs when there is
an imbalance. If the current in one leg was 100 amps and the the other
had 50 amps the neutral current would be 100 -50 + 50 amps.. When the
load is balanced and you measure the current in each leg you are just
measuring the same current twice.

Re-read the question. I'm asking about a SINGLE 120V 200A load between Line
1 & neutral, not 2 loads in series across 240V.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Doesnt matter if there is no current flow in the neutral, Quit trying
to reason what you dont understand and build a mock up circuit if this
really concerns you that much. I am growing very bored of talking to
people who are more interested in defending their argument than
actually trying to learn something. Any decent text that explains
Kerchov's(sp?) Law as applied to AC circuits will give you the answer.

Jimmie

In article , wrote:

[major snippage]

The homeowner can bring home 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and plug
it in and it works. Any place in the universe, that means the
service is supporting 400 amps of 120volt load.

ROTFLMAO! This is *exactly* what I've been saying in this thread for the last
week -- and you've been telling me I was wrong.

In article , wrote:

[major snippage]

The homeowner can bring home 400 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and plug
it in and it works. Any place in the universe, that means the
service is supporting 400 amps of 120volt load.

ROTFLMAO! This is *exactly* what I've been saying in this thread for the last
week -- and you've been telling me I was wrong.