Home |
Search |
Today's Posts |
|
Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems. |
Reply |
|
LinkBack | Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#121
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
In article , bud-- wrote:
And I hesitate to say it again, but I understood Doug to have said the same thing as in the previous 2 posts. I think he used "parallel" once, which I understood to mean "combined" (200+200), as applied to the 120V loads. I don't remember he ever other wise implied there was 400A in the neutral. In fact, I explicitly corrected at least one person who said there was. In at least two posts, I stated clearly that the neutral carries only the unbalanced current, and if the loads in the two legs are exactly balanced the current in the neutral is zero. |
#122
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
In article , bud-- wrote:
And I hesitate to say it again, but I understood Doug to have said the same thing as in the previous 2 posts. I think he used "parallel" once, which I understood to mean "combined" (200+200), as applied to the 120V loads. I don't remember he ever other wise implied there was 400A in the neutral. In fact, I explicitly corrected at least one person who said there was. In at least two posts, I stated clearly that the neutral carries only the unbalanced current, and if the loads in the two legs are exactly balanced the current in the neutral is zero. |
#123
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
|
#124
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
|
#125
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did . There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. Jimmie |
#126
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did . There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. Jimmie |
#127
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's I you saying so, not me. You do not have a physical current of more than 200 amps flowing in the service cable. THAT is what I have been saying all along. That is very different from supporting a LOAD of 400 amps worth of 120volt equipment. And once again, let me point out that I have courteously answered every one of your questions, yet you will not answer the simple direct question I have asked you repeatedly. I even asked it again above, yet you choose to hide from it: How many amps max are actually flowing in the service cable? Answer:200 Do you agree, yes or no? |
#128
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. Which is why I gave other examples. Let's take a heater consisting of a a . 3ohm resistance. The box says it's 60volts, 200 amps, 12Kwatts or KVA. Agree? I take TWO of those and place them is series and connect them to one side of the service. I take another two and place them in series on the other side of the service. I now have 4 loads. Each one is running at 200 amps and 60volts. Agree? I'm now supporting FOUR 200 amp, 60 volt loads. Across the service it looks like one 240volt, 200 amp load. Capishe? The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. No, according to my correct logic and math the current in the service is still 200 amps which is what the panel is rated for. However if I use voltage division, I can divide up that VOLTAGE across various loads any way I want. I gave you a clear example of that above. Since you say otherwise, please to explain how a 240volt, 200 amp 48KVA service becomes only capable of supporting 200 amps of 120volt load. You even said if the homeowner asked you: What is the maximum 120 volt load that I can hook up to this 200 amp, 240volt servce? Your answer would be 200 amps. My answer and I think virtually everyone else in this thread's answer is 400 amps, because in fact that is how much 120 volt load can be hooked up. With your answer, the homeowner goes out, looks at the rating labels on all the equipment and is limited to 200 amps, 120volt, 24KVA. Where is the rest of the poor guy's power? |
#129
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
Thanks all. I thought I replied back sooner but I don't see my reply
anywhere. I did get the answer to my question here before the converastion drifted off into whatever. JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). |
#130
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 31, 10:37*am, wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. * It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. * *Which is why I gave other examples. *Let's take a heater consisting of a a . 3ohm resistance. The box says it's 60volts, 200 amps, 12Kwatts or KVA. *Agree? *I take TWO of those and place them is series and connect them to one side of the service. * I take another two and place them in series on the other side of the service. * *I now have 4 loads. * Each one is running at 200 amps and 60volts. *Agree? *I'm now supporting FOUR 200 amp, 60 volt loads. * *Across the service it looks like one 240volt, 200 amp load. * *Capishe? The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. No, according to my correct logic and math the current in the service is still 200 amps which is what the panel is rated for. * * However if I use voltage division, I can divide up that VOLTAGE across various loads any way I want. * I gave you a clear example of that above. Since you say otherwise, please to explain how a 240volt, 200 amp 48KVA service becomes only capable of supporting 200 amps of 120volt load. * * You even said if the homeowner asked you: What is the maximum 120 volt load that I can hook up to this 200 amp, 240volt servce? Your answer would be 200 amps. My answer and I think virtually everyone else in this thread's answer is 400 amps, because in fact that is how much 120 volt load can be hooked up. * *With your answer, the homeowner goes out, looks at the rating labels on all the equipment and is limited to 200 amps, 120volt, 24KVA. * *Where is the rest of the poor guy's power?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But the box doesnt see them as 120 volt loads. It doesnt care. Case 1 : if they are all connected to one leg of the 200 amp service all you can draw is 200 amps before the breaker pops with 0 current in the other leg. Yo uare only using 1/2 the box.24KW Case 2 Same as case 1 but for the other leg. Case 3 they are evenly distributed on each leg, when you do this the box no longer sees them as individual 120vac loads but sees them as 240vac load so now you have 240vac at 200amps or 48KW AT no time were you allowed to excede 200 amps. In case 1 the current path is 200 amps from L1 to the neutral wire. In case 2 the current path is from L2 to the neutral wire. In case 3 the current path is from L1 to L2. L1 and L2 ar across 240 vac not 120vac. In this case the 120 vac loads are in series forming 240 vac loads. 240vac x 200amps = your 48Kw There are no 120VAC loads as far as the panel is concerned. Jimmie |
#131
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 31, 10:26*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Oct 31, 10:37*am, wrote: On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. * It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. * *Which is why I gave other examples. *Let's take a heater consisting of a a . 3ohm resistance. The box says it's 60volts, 200 amps, 12Kwatts or KVA. *Agree? *I take TWO of those and place them is series and connect them to one side of the service. * I take another two and place them in series on the other side of the service. * *I now have 4 loads. * Each one is running at 200 amps and 60volts. *Agree? *I'm now supporting FOUR 200 amp, 60 volt loads. * *Across the service it looks like one 240volt, 200 amp load. * *Capishe? The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. No, according to my correct logic and math the current in the service is still 200 amps which is what the panel is rated for. * * However if I use voltage division, I can divide up that VOLTAGE across various loads any way I want. * I gave you a clear example of that above. Since you say otherwise, please to explain how a 240volt, 200 amp 48KVA service becomes only capable of supporting 200 amps of 120volt load. * * You even said if the homeowner asked you: What is the maximum 120 volt load that I can hook up to this 200 amp, 240volt servce? Your answer would be 200 amps. My answer and I think virtually everyone else in this thread's answer is 400 amps, because in fact that is how much 120 volt load can be hooked up. * *With your answer, the homeowner goes out, looks at the rating labels on all the equipment and is limited to 200 amps, 120volt, 24KVA. * *Where is the rest of the poor guy's power?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But the box doesnt see them as 120 volt loads. It doesnt care. No **** Sherlock. I never said anything inconsistent with that. Case 1 : if they are all connected to one leg of the 200 amp service all you can draw is 200 amps before the breaker pops with 0 current in the other leg. Yo uare only using 1/2 the box.24KW Case 2 Same as case 1 but for the other leg. Case 3 they are evenly distributed on each leg, when you do this the box no longer sees them as individual 120vac loads but sees them as 240vac load so now you have 240vac at 200amps or 48KW The operative word here is LOADS. It's plural because there are TWO 120volt loads, with a current of 200 amps flowing through EACH of them. If instead of TWO 120volt loads with 200 amps flowing through each of them, you can have only one 120volt 200 amp load, which is what you claim, then you just lost half your load capacity and the math does not add up. You told the homeowner the service will only suipport 200 amps of 120volt load. Following your answer, he buys only 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and that is all he ever hooks up, drawing a max of 24KVA. You're comfortable with that answer? Following the answer the rest of the folks in this thread know to be correct, he goes out and buys 400amps worth of 120volt eqpt, places half of it on one leg, half on the other, and he's got 48KVA. Our math adds up, yours does not. It's also not even debatable, because we all know in the real world that 200 amp service can in fact support 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. Not a single person in this thread is arguing otherwise, except you. AT no time were you allowed to excede 200 amps. And one more time, I have said the total current flowing in the service cable is a max of 200 amps. In case 1 the current path is 200 amps from L1 to the neutral wire. *In case 2 the current path is from L2 to the neutral wire. In case 3 the current path is *from L1 to L2. L1 and L2 ar across 240 vac not 120vac. In this case the 120 vac loads are in series forming 240 vac loads. 240vac x 200amps = your 48Kw There are no 120VAC loads as far as the panel is concerned. Who cares as far as the panel is concerned? That is not the issue. The issue is how much current is flowing as far as each of the 120volt loads is concerned. The panel with 200 amps flowing can support a VARIETY OF VOLTAGE and loads. You can divide up the voltage across multiple loads any way you want. I gave you an example of how you could divide it up and get that 200 amps flowing across four 60 volt loads. You then are supporting 800 amps worth of 60 volt load. 800X60=48KVA and once again, we have all the power accounted for across all four loads. Again, the simple question from the homeowner is: What is the maximum 120volt load that I can support in my house with a 200 amp service. The answer is always the same, 400 amps. You still have not explained how the homeowner gets cheated out of half his power if he listens to your answer and only buys 200 amps worth of eqpt. Doesn't that bother you? One more time: ------------------- 240Volts-------------- I I I I I I I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- load 1 load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: 200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: 120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? 400 What is the total power? 120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? |
#132
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote:
On Oct 31, 10:26*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 31, 10:37*am, wrote: On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable.. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. * It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. * *Which is why I gave other examples. *Let's take a heater consisting of a a . 3ohm resistance. The box says it's 60volts, 200 amps, 12Kwatts or KVA. *Agree? *I take TWO of those and place them is series and connect them to one side of the service. * I take another two and place them in series on the other side of the service. * *I now have 4 loads. * Each one is running at 200 amps and 60volts. *Agree? *I'm now supporting FOUR 200 amp, 60 volt loads. * *Across the service it looks like one 240volt, 200 amp load. * *Capishe? The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. No, according to my correct logic and math the current in the service is still 200 amps which is what the panel is rated for. * * However if I use voltage division, I can divide up that VOLTAGE across various loads any way I want. * I gave you a clear example of that above. Since you say otherwise, please to explain how a 240volt, 200 amp 48KVA service becomes only capable of supporting 200 amps of 120volt load. * * You even said if the homeowner asked you: What is the maximum 120 volt load that I can hook up to this 200 amp, 240volt servce? Your answer would be 200 amps. My answer and I think virtually everyone else in this thread's answer is 400 amps, because in fact that is how much 120 volt load can be hooked up. * *With your answer, the homeowner goes out, looks at the rating labels on all the equipment and is limited to 200 amps, 120volt, 24KVA. * *Where is the rest of the poor guy's power?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But the box doesnt see them as 120 volt loads. It doesnt care. No **** Sherlock. *I never said anything inconsistent with that. Case 1 : if they are all connected to one leg of the 200 amp service all you can draw is 200 amps before the breaker pops with 0 current in the other leg. Yo uare only using 1/2 the box.24KW Case 2 Same as case 1 but for the other leg. Case 3 they are evenly distributed on each leg, when you do this the box no longer sees them as individual 120vac loads but sees them as 240vac load so now you have 240vac at 200amps or 48KW The operative word here is LOADS. * It's plural because there are TWO 120volt loads, with a current of 200 amps flowing through EACH of them. * If instead of TWO 120volt loads with 200 amps flowing through each of them, you can have only one 120volt 200 amp load, which is what you claim, then you just lost half your load capacity and the math does not add up. You told the homeowner the service will only suipport 200 amps of 120volt load. * Following your answer, he buys only 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and that is all he ever hooks up, drawing a max of 24KVA. *You're comfortable with that answer? Following the answer the rest of the folks in this thread know to be correct, he goes out and buys 400amps worth of 120volt eqpt, places half of it on one leg, half on the other, and he's got 48KVA. * *Our math adds up, yours does not. * It's also not even debatable, because we all know in the real world that 200 amp service can in fact support 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. * *Not a single person in this thread is arguing otherwise, except you. AT no time were you allowed to excede 200 amps. And one more time, I have said the total current flowing in the service cable is a max of 200 amps. In case 1 the current path is 200 amps from L1 to the neutral wire. *In case 2 the current path is from L2 to the neutral wire. In case 3 the current path is *from L1 to L2. L1 and L2 ar across 240 vac not 120vac. In this case the 120 vac loads are in series forming 240 vac loads. 240vac x 200amps = your 48Kw There are no 120VAC loads as far as the panel is concerned. Who cares as far as the panel is concerned? * That is not the issue. The issue is how much current is flowing as far as each of the 120volt loads is concerned. * *The panel with 200 amps flowing can support a VARIETY OF VOLTAGE and loads. * You can divide up the voltage across multiple loads any way you want. *I gave you an example of how you could divide it up and get that 200 amps flowing across four 60 volt loads. *You then are supporting 800 amps worth of 60 volt load. 800X60=48KVA and once again, we have all the power accounted for across all four loads. Again, the simple question from the homeowner is: What is the maximum 120volt load that I can support in my house with a 200 amp service. * *The answer is always the same, 400 amps. * *You still have not explained how the homeowner gets cheated out of half his power if he listens to your answer and only buys 200 amps worth of eqpt. * Doesn't that bother you? One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? Then clarify one thing , are you saying that there is 400 amps flowing in the box somewhere. Jimmie |
#133
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote:
On Oct 31, 10:26*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 31, 10:37*am, wrote: On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable.. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. * It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. * *Which is why I gave other examples. *Let's take a heater consisting of a a . 3ohm resistance. The box says it's 60volts, 200 amps, 12Kwatts or KVA. *Agree? *I take TWO of those and place them is series and connect them to one side of the service. * I take another two and place them in series on the other side of the service. * *I now have 4 loads. * Each one is running at 200 amps and 60volts. *Agree? *I'm now supporting FOUR 200 amp, 60 volt loads. * *Across the service it looks like one 240volt, 200 amp load. * *Capishe? The panel is rated 200 amps @ 240 volts, not 400 amps@ 120 volts. Power has nothing to do with it. I could use the box to distribute 24VAC and it would still only be able to handle 200 amps. According to your logic it should handle 2000 amps, Hey that's 48KW said very much tongue in cheek.. No, according to my correct logic and math the current in the service is still 200 amps which is what the panel is rated for. * * However if I use voltage division, I can divide up that VOLTAGE across various loads any way I want. * I gave you a clear example of that above. Since you say otherwise, please to explain how a 240volt, 200 amp 48KVA service becomes only capable of supporting 200 amps of 120volt load. * * You even said if the homeowner asked you: What is the maximum 120 volt load that I can hook up to this 200 amp, 240volt servce? Your answer would be 200 amps. My answer and I think virtually everyone else in this thread's answer is 400 amps, because in fact that is how much 120 volt load can be hooked up. * *With your answer, the homeowner goes out, looks at the rating labels on all the equipment and is limited to 200 amps, 120volt, 24KVA. * *Where is the rest of the poor guy's power?- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - But the box doesnt see them as 120 volt loads. It doesnt care. No **** Sherlock. *I never said anything inconsistent with that. Case 1 : if they are all connected to one leg of the 200 amp service all you can draw is 200 amps before the breaker pops with 0 current in the other leg. Yo uare only using 1/2 the box.24KW Case 2 Same as case 1 but for the other leg. Case 3 they are evenly distributed on each leg, when you do this the box no longer sees them as individual 120vac loads but sees them as 240vac load so now you have 240vac at 200amps or 48KW The operative word here is LOADS. * It's plural because there are TWO 120volt loads, with a current of 200 amps flowing through EACH of them. * If instead of TWO 120volt loads with 200 amps flowing through each of them, you can have only one 120volt 200 amp load, which is what you claim, then you just lost half your load capacity and the math does not add up. You told the homeowner the service will only suipport 200 amps of 120volt load. * Following your answer, he buys only 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt and that is all he ever hooks up, drawing a max of 24KVA. *You're comfortable with that answer? Following the answer the rest of the folks in this thread know to be correct, he goes out and buys 400amps worth of 120volt eqpt, places half of it on one leg, half on the other, and he's got 48KVA. * *Our math adds up, yours does not. * It's also not even debatable, because we all know in the real world that 200 amp service can in fact support 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. * *Not a single person in this thread is arguing otherwise, except you. AT no time were you allowed to excede 200 amps. And one more time, I have said the total current flowing in the service cable is a max of 200 amps. In case 1 the current path is 200 amps from L1 to the neutral wire. *In case 2 the current path is from L2 to the neutral wire. In case 3 the current path is *from L1 to L2. L1 and L2 ar across 240 vac not 120vac. In this case the 120 vac loads are in series forming 240 vac loads. 240vac x 200amps = your 48Kw There are no 120VAC loads as far as the panel is concerned. Who cares as far as the panel is concerned? * That is not the issue. The issue is how much current is flowing as far as each of the 120volt loads is concerned. * *The panel with 200 amps flowing can support a VARIETY OF VOLTAGE and loads. * You can divide up the voltage across multiple loads any way you want. *I gave you an example of how you could divide it up and get that 200 amps flowing across four 60 volt loads. *You then are supporting 800 amps worth of 60 volt load. 800X60=48KVA and once again, we have all the power accounted for across all four loads. Again, the simple question from the homeowner is: What is the maximum 120volt load that I can support in my house with a 200 amp service. * *The answer is always the same, 400 amps. * *You still have not explained how the homeowner gets cheated out of half his power if he listens to your answer and only buys 200 amps worth of eqpt. * Doesn't that bother you? One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. They are not the same. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the question wrongly. I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. Jimmie Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics. |
#134
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 1, 12:35*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: On Oct 31, 10:26*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 31, 10:37*am, wrote: On Oct 29, 8:25*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Oct 29, 8:24*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: The only issue I have with Doug is that he refuses to acknowledge that there is only a max 200 amp current flowing in the service cable. * *I freely answered ALL his questions, yet for some reason he won't give a straight answer to the simple question of how many amps max can ever be flowing in the service cable. * And in trying to evade the question he dragged in voltage and power, which are seperate from the question of how many amps max are ever flowing in the service cable. "But as far as the loads go, you do have 400 amps going through them, 120V * 400a = 48KVA of power". That's a quote from one of *your* posts. Apparently, it *is* possible to have a current 200 amps -- as long as it's you saying so, not me. Nope I made a mistake, I meant to point out that the OP could get the power he wanted but not at 400 amps. So expalin us the physics whereby I can get 48KVA at 120 volts without a current of 400 amps. What I said was wrong. Im still trying to figure out what led me so say what I did * No, when you said a 200 amp service can support 400 amps worth of 120volt load you were correct. * It's now that you;'ve reversed yourself that you are wrong. There are lot of numbers you can multiply times each other and get 48K you might as well pick any from the group if you use your logic. That is correct because that is EXACTLY what you can do. * *Which is why I gave other examples. *Let's take a heater consisting of a a |
#135
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. Now that is simply untrue. Nowhere above have I ever interchanged current and power. But they do need to obey the laws of physics, which in ALL of the above they do. All of the current and all of the power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the service. Capishe? They are not the same. No **** Sherlock. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. No **** Sherlock. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. Hmmm, let's see. Your first post you said: "Assume you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker will handle that is 120 volts X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is 240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400 amps. I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of 400 amps at 120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes " Then you apparently changed your mind. When called out on it, you then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." Now, apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the *question wrongly. It wasn't a wrong question. It was a very reasonable question that any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. "How many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200 amp, 240volt service." You've got at least two electrical engineers here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. You also have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. The only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you. *I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. And now comes the weaseling. It didn't "sound like it." You did say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then please explain how your math adds up. You claim I'm "interchanging" current and power. In fact, I am not and my math adds up. What is the voltage across the load? 120volts What is the current flowing through the 120 volt loads? 400 amps. What is the power? 48KVA. See how it all works out? Now let's do it your way. 120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. Where is the other half of the missing power? I've asked that previously and gotten no answer other than the lame "you're confusing power with current." I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple circuit I drew above, where is yours? Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. I tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. The box on each one says 120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. That is how these loads are labeled, are they not? He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the other side of the hot. He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads powered. Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. Why is he only getting half his load if he listens to you? Doesn't that bother you? In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current passing through a second load and generating power. You don't count current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's Law. But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate loads, powering each of them. That is the only way physics explains the power. Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my credentials. I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusettes Institute of Technology. I spent 16 years in various capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. Bud, who also says you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of Minnesota Institute of Technology. And precisely what are your qualifications? |
#136
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Oct 24, 11:11*am, Gary H wrote:
On Fri, 23 Oct 2009 19:54:26 GMT, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article , wrote: On Oct 22, 4:10=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote: In article = ..com, wrote: Aside from the 80% rule, Which doesn't apply... you can't get 400 amps out of a 200amp service. Of course you can; it just depends on which circuits are in use. If you're using only 120V circuits, you can get 200A on *each* leg. 200A @ 240V is the same power as 400A @120V. Yes but physically, a current of 200 amps is all that is actually flowing. * Put a meter on it and you will measure 200 amps, not 400. It's a simple matter of Kirchoffs law. 200 amps on _each leg_. It's a total of (up to) 400 amps at 120V. 200A on each leg. Where's the 400A? Being able to add to numbers* doesn't mean reality works that way. [snip] * - Actually, that's incorrect too. The addends are out of phase, so 200 + 200 = 0.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - No they are NOT 'out of phase' the two 240 'ends' are the opposite ends of a single phase 240v winding of the distribution transformer! they are often incorrectly referred to as 'phases. but are actually Leg A and leg B. And when on of them is +ve the other leg is -ve with respect to it. The neutral is the centre tap of that distribution transformer winding. |
#137
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 2, 8:30*am, wrote:
On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. Now that is simply untrue. * Nowhere above have I ever interchanged current and power. * *But they do need to obey the laws of physics, which in ALL of the above they do. *All of the current and all of the power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the service. * Capishe? They are not the same. No **** Sherlock. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. No **** Sherlock. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. Hmmm, *let's see. * Your first post you said: "Assume *you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker will handle that is 120 volts *X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is 240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400 amps. I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of *400 amps at 120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes " Then you apparently changed your mind. *When called out on it, you then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." * Now, apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the *question wrongly. It wasn't a wrong question. * It was a very reasonable question that any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. *"How many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200 amp, 240volt service." * *You've got at least two electrical engineers here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. * *You also have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. * The only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you. *I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. And now comes the weaseling. * *It didn't "sound like it." * You did say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then please explain how your math adds up. * You claim I'm "interchanging" current and power. * In fact, I am not and my math adds up. * *What is the voltage across the load? * *120volts * *What is the current flowing through the 120 volt loads? * 400 amps. * What is the power? 48KVA. * See how it all works out? Now let's do it your way. * *120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. *Where is the other half of the missing power? * I've asked that previously and gotten no answer other than the lame *"you're confusing power with current." * I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple circuit I drew above, where is yours? Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. * I tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. * The box on each one says 120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. *That is how these loads are labeled, are they not? * * He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the other side of the hot. * He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads powered. Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. *Why is he only getting half his load if he listens to you? *Doesn't that bother you? In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current passing through a second load and generating power. * *You don't count current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's Law. * But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate loads, powering each of them. * *That is the only way physics explains the power. Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my credentials. * I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusettes Institute of Technology. *I spent 16 years in various capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. * Bud, who also says you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of Minnesota Institute of Technology. * And precisely what are your qualifications? Geez no freaking way you graduated from MIT. Im done with you. Jimmie |
#138
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 2, 10:51*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 2, 8:30*am, wrote: On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. Now that is simply untrue. * Nowhere above have I ever interchanged current and power. * *But they do need to obey the laws of physics, which in ALL of the above they do. *All of the current and all of the power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the service. * Capishe? They are not the same. No **** Sherlock. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. No **** Sherlock. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. Hmmm, *let's see. * Your first post you said: "Assume *you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker will handle that is 120 volts *X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is 240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400 amps. I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of *400 amps at 120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes " Then you apparently changed your mind. *When called out on it, you then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." * Now, apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the *question wrongly. It wasn't a wrong question. * It was a very reasonable question that any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. *"How many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200 amp, 240volt service." * *You've got at least two electrical engineers here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. * *You also have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. * The only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you. *I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. And now comes the weaseling. * *It didn't "sound like it." * You did say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then please explain how your math adds up. * You claim I'm "interchanging" current and power. * In fact, I am not and my math adds up. * *What is the voltage across the load? * *120volts * *What is the current flowing through the 120 volt loads? * 400 amps. * What is the power? 48KVA. * See how it all works out? Now let's do it your way. * *120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. *Where is the other half of the missing power? * I've asked that previously and gotten no answer other than the lame *"you're confusing power with current." * I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple circuit I drew above, where is yours? Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. * I tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. * The box on each one says 120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. *That is how these loads are labeled, are they not? * * He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the other side of the hot. * He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads powered. Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. *Why is he only getting half his load if he listens to you? *Doesn't that bother you? In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current passing through a second load and generating power. * *You don't count current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's Law. * But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate loads, powering each of them. * *That is the only way physics explains the power. Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my credentials. * I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusettes Institute of Technology. *I spent 16 years in various capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. * Bud, who also says you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of Minnesota Institute of Technology. * And precisely what are your qualifications? Geez no freaking way you graduated from MIT. Im done with you. Jimmie- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Yeah, that's pretty much what I expected, no fact, no answers to the several simple direct questions that are the core of the issue, just emotion. Here's just a couple more question for you big boy. What is the total power that a 200 amp 240volt service can deliver to a resistance load of heaters? Everyone else that I've seen post here agrees that it is 48KW. Do you agree? So, I hook up those four 12Kwatt heaters from my example to my 200 amp service. I place two on each side. I now have a balanced 120volt load, 24KW on each side, the total power is 48KW. With me so far? The voltage on each and every one ofl the loads is 120volts. So, if 400 total of amps is NOT flowing through the LOADS, then how do I get 48KW out of the service? Or is it your position that I can only get 24KW out of the service? Those are the kinds of simple questions any first year EE student can answer. My math adds up, we have yet to see yours. |
#139
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 2, 10:51*am, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 2, 8:30*am, wrote: On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. Now that is simply untrue. * Nowhere above have I ever interchanged current and power. * *But they do need to obey the laws of physics, which in ALL of the above they do. *All of the current and all of the power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the service. * Capishe? They are not the same. No **** Sherlock. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. No **** Sherlock. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. Hmmm, *let's see. * Your first post you said: "Assume *you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker will handle that is 120 volts *X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is 240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400 amps. I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of *400 amps at 120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes " Then you apparently changed your mind. *When called out on it, you then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." * Now, apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the *question wrongly. It wasn't a wrong question. * It was a very reasonable question that any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. *"How many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200 amp, 240volt service." * *You've got at least two electrical engineers here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. * *You also have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. * The only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you. *I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. And now comes the weaseling. * *It didn't "sound like it." * You did say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then please explain how your math adds up. * You claim I'm "interchanging" current and power. * In fact, I am not and my math adds up. * *What is the voltage across the load? * *120volts * *What is the current flowing through the 120 volt loads? * 400 amps. * What is the power? 48KVA. * See how it all works out? Now let's do it your way. * *120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. *Where is the other half of the missing power? * I've asked that previously and gotten no answer other than the lame *"you're confusing power with current." * I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple circuit I drew above, where is yours? Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. * I tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. * The box on each one says 120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. *That is how these loads are labeled, are they not? * * He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the other side of the hot. * He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads powered. Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. *Why is he only getting half his load if he listens to you? *Doesn't that bother you? In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current passing through a second load and generating power. * *You don't count current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's Law. * But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate loads, powering each of them. * *That is the only way physics explains the power. Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my credentials. * I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusettes Institute of Technology. *I spent 16 years in various capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. * Bud, who also says you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of Minnesota Institute of Technology. * And precisely what are your qualifications? Geez no freaking way you graduated from MIT. Im done with you. Jimmie Sorry for that comment, I had to go take some insulin. I ran this buy the engineering staff at work and they agreed with me. Then I realized a few minutes ago that we ARE talking about a residential environment, I deal with industrial installations, mostly testing and installations of UPS's and generators. The point I was trying to make to the OP is that there will never be 400 amps in the box. There will never be 400 amps flowing anywhere. It appeared to me and the engineering staff that claims were being made that there would be 400 amps of current flowing at 120VAC. This is what I disagreed with. Part of the reason for my argument is that while this MAY be a question a typical home owner could ask I did not view it as such as such, it is also a classical "gotcha question". Usually the question is just tossed out in a classroom for discussion to get people thinking but a few instructors will put it on a test. The guys at work saw it the same way. I agree that asking if the box will will support 400 1 amp 120 vac loads is a question a home owner may ask and the answer is YES in theory and I have said so. If this was a real homeowner type question the answer would be NO. He would be risking overloading the box. The only point is that I am making is that there will never be 400 amps of current flowing in the box.The LINE Input will not "see" the load as 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads it will only "see" it as a 200 amp 240 vac load. If you add up all the currents through each individual current paths there will never be more than 200amps. The way I see it 2 120 vac 1 amp loads in series is is going to be one path. There is no node or legitimate sum of nodes where 400 amps is flowing in the box. A home owner may see it as 400 1 amp 120vac loads but that is not the reality of what is happening in the panel. I think our disagreement is merely a matter of perception of the problem and a matter of perception of each others answers. We both know what we are talking about. As far as my education, I eventually got my Electronic Engineering degree at University of Miami after attending 3 different universities spread out over 8 years while in the USAF. When I got out of the AF in the early 80s I discovered there wasnt much call for an electronic engineer.The jobs that were open had a very short life expectancy, most engineers were being hired for special projects with little hope of being retained after the project was finished. I then went back to Georgia Tech for a little over a year for my electrical degree. Never finished it up, A very good long term job came along and I made the choice to take it. .. |
#140
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Nov 2, 2:30*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On Nov 2, 10:51*am, JIMMIE wrote: On Nov 2, 8:30*am, wrote: On Nov 1, 1:24*pm, JIMMIE wrote: On Nov 1, 8:41*am, wrote: One more time: * * * * * *------------------- *240Volts-------------- * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *I * * * * * *I---------.6ohms--------.6ohms-------- * * * * * * * * * * * load 1 * * * * * load 2 Simple, basic questions: How much current is flowing in this circuit: *200 amps What is the current flowing in load 1: * 200 amps What is the current flowing in load 2: *200 amps What is the voltage across load 1: *120volts What is the voltage across load 2: 120volts What is the power in EACH of these loads? * 120voltsX200 amps= 24KVA How many amps of 120volt load is being supported? * 400 How many amps worth of 120 volt heaters could I buy and hook up in this way? *400 What is the total power? * *120voltsX400 amps=48KVA, or 240voltsX200 amps =48KVA. Notice how the math ALL adds up. * There is no missing power and the homeowner gets to hook up 400 amps worth of 120 volt eqpt. hust like in the real world. * * Following your answer the poor guy only hooks up 200 amps worth of 120volt eqpt. * Where did the other half of his power and load disappear to? You keep interchanging the meaning of current and power. Now that is simply untrue. * Nowhere above have I ever interchanged current and power. * *But they do need to obey the laws of physics, which in ALL of the above they do. *All of the current and all of the power are accounted for and there is 400 amps of current flowing across 120volt loads that accounts for the full 48KVA of power in the service. * Capishe? They are not the same. No **** Sherlock. At no time will there be more than 200 amps of current flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. It doesn't matter how you divide up the loads there will never be more than 200 amps flowing in the box without tripping a breaker. No **** Sherlock. Your terminology saying 400 amps of LOAD is just wrong. But guess what I work with engineers that say it all the time. I know its wrong, they know its wrong but we all know what each other means. Hmmm, *let's see. * Your first post you said: "Assume *you are using one leg at 200 amps, that is all the breaker will handle that is 120 volts *X 200 amps or 24,000 watts. If you again max out the breaker with 200 amps flowing on both sides that is 240 volts x 200 amps or 48000 watts. Thats the same as 120 X 400 amps. I think the OP wanted to know if he could get a total of *400 amps at 120VAC. Lets rephrase that to could he power 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads from this box under residential conditions. The answer is yes " Then you apparently changed your mind. *When called out on it, you then said " I don't know why I said that, but I was wrong." * Now, apparently you knew all along why you said it, it was no mystery. The OP made the same mistake and that is why I said he was asking the wrong question or was it the *question wrongly. It wasn't a wrong question. * It was a very reasonable question that any homeowner could ask an electrician or electrical engineer. *"How many amps of 120volt load is the max that I could hook up to a 200 amp, 240volt service." * *You've got at least two electrical engineers here and we both say that the answer to the question of how many amps of 120volt load a 200 amp 240v service can supply is 400. * *You also have about 5 other people who have weighed in and they say 400. * The only lonely voice coninuing to say 200 here is you. *I tried to clarify what he meant and when I got through it sounded like I was saying there were 400 amps of current flowing, my bad. And now comes the weaseling. * *It didn't "sound like it." * You did say exaclty that, it's reposted again for you above. I was merely trying to indicate he could still power the load he wanted and it didnt take 400 amps to do it. If it doesn't take 400 amps to power a 48KVA load at 120volts, then please explain how your math adds up. * You claim I'm "interchanging" current and power. * In fact, I am not and my math adds up. * *What is the voltage across the load? * *120volts * *What is the current flowing through the 120 volt loads? * 400 amps. * What is the power? 48KVA. * See how it all works out? Now let's do it your way. * *120volts X 200 amps=24KVA. *Where is the other half of the missing power? * I've asked that previously and gotten no answer other than the lame *"you're confusing power with current." * I've supplied the straightforward math for the simple circuit I drew above, where is yours? Here's the other simple question I'm waiting for an answer to. * I tell the homeowner he can power a max of 400 amps of 120 volt eqpt. He goes out and buys four 12KW heaters. * The box on each one says 120volts, 100 amps, 12KW. *That is how these loads are labeled, are they not? * * He plugs two in on one side of the hot, two in on the other side of the hot. * He now has 400 amps of 120 volt loads powered. Following your answer, he instead comes home with only two 12KW heaters and only gets to use half the available service power. *Why is he only getting half his load if he listens to you? *Doesn't that bother you? In simple terms, for some strange reason, you want to ignore a current passing through a second load and generating power. * *You don't count current twice in a circuit in a way that would violate Kirchoff's Law. * But you do count it twice if it flows through two seperate loads, powering each of them. * *That is the only way physics explains the power. Jimmie Im sorry you dont get it. I suggest you get some good books on electrical engineering and try to learn more than the mechanics.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Since you want to drag education into it, I've stated my credentials. * I have a BS in Electrical Engineering from the Massachusettes Institute of Technology. *I spent 16 years in various capacities, many of them engineering, with Intel. * Bud, who also says you are nuts, has an Electrical Engineering degree from the Univ of Minnesota Institute of Technology. * And precisely what are your qualifications? Geez no freaking way you graduated from MIT. Im done with you. Jimmie Sorry for that comment, I had to go take some insulin. I ran this buy the engineering staff at work and they agreed with me. Then I realized a few minutes ago that we ARE talking about a residential environment, I deal with industrial installations, mostly testing and installations of UPS's and generators. The point I was trying to make to the OP is that there will never be 400 amps in the box. There will never be 400 amps flowing anywhere. It appeared to me and the engineering staff that claims were being made that there would be 400 amps of current flowing at 120VAC. This is what I disagreed with. Part of the reason for my argument is that while this MAY be a question a typical home owner could ask I did not view it as such as such, it is also a classical "gotcha question". Usually the question is just tossed out in a classroom for discussion to get people thinking but a few instructors will put it on a test. The guys at work saw it the same way. *I agree that asking if the box will will support 400 1 amp 120 vac loads is a question a home owner may ask and the answer is YES in theory and I have said so. If this was a real homeowner type question the answer would be NO. He would be risking overloading the box. The only point is that I am making is that there will never be 400 amps of current flowing in the box.The LINE Input will not "see" the load as 400 1 amp 120 VAC loads it will only "see" it as a 200 amp 240 vac load. If you add up all the currents through each individual current paths there will never be more than 200amps. *The way I see it 2 120 vac 1 amp loads in series is is going to be one path. There is no node or legitimate sum of nodes where 400 amps is flowing in the box. * A home owner may *see it as 400 1 amp 120vac loads but that is not the reality of what is happening in the panel. I think our disagreement is merely a matter of perception of the problem and a matter of perception of each others answers. We both know what we are talking about. As far as my education, I eventually got my Electronic Engineering degree at University of Miami after attending 3 different universities spread out over 8 years while in the USAF. When I got out of the AF in the early 80s I discovered there wasnt much call for an electronic engineer.The jobs that were open had a very short life expectancy, most engineers were being hired for special projects with little hope of being retained after the project was finished. I then went back to Georgia Tech for a little over a year *for my electrical degree. Never finished it up, A very good long term *job came along and I made the choice to take it. .- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Excellent, good to see we finally have closure. |
#141
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote:
This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! |
#142
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. |
#143
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
This post is 7 years old, he probably has burned his house down by now or else the AC is working.
|
#144
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 9:28:26 PM UTC-4, wrote:
This post is 7 years old, he probably has burned his house down by now or else the AC is working. i was the poster talking about my neighbor with the griswald christmas light display. i have sad news to report. jerry my neigbor was a smoker, he died from lung cancer. it was a slow cruel way to go, including a unsucccessful attempt at suicide. worse his 16 year old son watched his dad die |
#145
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. |
#146
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. |
#147
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day |
#148
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
wrote in message ... This post is 7 years old, he probably has burned his house down by now or else the AC is working. No is not the same little different! |
#149
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:18:35 -0700, "Tony944" wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day The point is the neutral only handles the unbalanced load between the 2 ungrounded conductors and is they were both pulling equal amounts, the current in the neutral is zero. |
#150
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 6:18:45 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote:
"trader_4" wrote in message ... On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day Ah schucks, don't just go away on us like that. I was looking forward to you explaining this: Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. You see many 200 amp services where the two hots are sized for 200 amps and the neutral is sized for 400 amps? Where do you buy that cable? There is never more than 200 amps in any conductor. Nor does there have to be to support 400 amps of 120V load on a 240V, 200A service. |
#151
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
|
#153
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
|
#154
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:28:14 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:13:02 -0500, notX wrote: On 06/25/2016 06:01 PM, wrote: [snip] Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day The point is the neutral only handles the unbalanced load between the 2 ungrounded conductors and is they were both pulling equal amounts, the current in the neutral is zero. In other words there is 200A here (one ungrounded conductor) and 200A there (the other ungrounded conductor) and 0A (the difference between the two, never more than 200A) in the grounded conductor. NEVER 400A anywhere. Yes, on single phase that is true. On 3 phase wye, you can get triplin harmonics that may have the neutral carrying more current that simple math might predict. That happens with reactive loads like solid state flourescent ballasts and PC power supplies. That would need to be the main part of the load to become a problem. and it would need to be a 3 phase panel - which would NOT be a 240 volt service. (It would be 208 in most cases) |
#155
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
So the question was never answered.
What do you call a panel with a dual main breaker 200/200. Is that called a 200 Amp service or a 400 Amp service? M |
#156
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:50:27 -0400, wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:28:14 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:13:02 -0500, notX wrote: On 06/25/2016 06:01 PM, wrote: The point is the neutral only handles the unbalanced load between the 2 ungrounded conductors and is they were both pulling equal amounts, the current in the neutral is zero. In other words there is 200A here (one ungrounded conductor) and 200A there (the other ungrounded conductor) and 0A (the difference between the two, never more than 200A) in the grounded conductor. NEVER 400A anywhere. Yes, on single phase that is true. On 3 phase wye, you can get triplin harmonics that may have the neutral carrying more current that simple math might predict. That happens with reactive loads like solid state flourescent ballasts and PC power supplies. That would need to be the main part of the load to become a problem. and it would need to be a 3 phase panel - which would NOT be a 240 volt service. (It would be 208 in most cases) The triplin harmonic problem is on 3p wye (typically 120/208v) but there is another configuration where you will have 120/240 (center tapped delta). It is basically a regular 120/240 transformer with one (or rarely two) other transformers providing the 3d phase. This is what 120/240 delta looks like from the ground, using 2 transformers. If you look around a light industrial bay area or other customers who need some 3P but mostly 120/240 loads. The 3d leg is 208 above ground and you have 240 between phases. http://gfretwell.com/electrical/red%...ansformers.jpg |
#157
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
|
#158
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
wrote in message ... On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:28:14 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 21:13:02 -0500, notX wrote: On 06/25/2016 06:01 PM, wrote: [snip] Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day The point is the neutral only handles the unbalanced load between the 2 ungrounded conductors and is they were both pulling equal amounts, the current in the neutral is zero. In other words there is 200A here (one ungrounded conductor) and 200A there (the other ungrounded conductor) and 0A (the difference between the two, never more than 200A) in the grounded conductor. NEVER 400A anywhere. Yes, on single phase that is true. On 3 phase wye, you can get triplin harmonics that may have the neutral carrying more current that simple math might predict. That happens with reactive loads like solid state flourescent ballasts and PC power supplies. That would need to be the main part of the load to become a problem. and it would need to be a 3 phase panel - which would NOT be a 240 volt service. (It would be 208 in most cases) That would be incorrect it could have 208, 220, 240, or 270 it all depend on costumer setup, in most cases through out heavy industries 270 is standard but for Homers use it floats 208-240. Some chip organization may use one leg of 480 for 240 & Neutral. when you work with industrial people do not take anything for granted! |
#159
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 10:47:58 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 19:01:51 -0400, wrote: On Sat, 25 Jun 2016 15:18:35 -0700, "Tony944" wrote: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 1:50:11 PM UTC-4, Tony944 wrote: "trader_4" wrote in message ... On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 7:41:07 PM UTC-4, wrote: On Thursday, October 22, 2009 at 11:02:51 AM UTC-5, JayB wrote: This came up elsewhere and I am just curious about what the answer is. If someone has a main service panel with a 200-amp main breaker, how many amps of service can that panel actually service? I am probably not wording this correctly, but I thought that I remember something about a 200-amp main breaker actually being okay for 400 amps of service since there are two separate circuits coming in (a 240-volt service split into two 120-volt circuits in the panel box). DON'T DO IT! Don't do what? A 200 amp panel will support 240V at 200 amps or 400 amps at 120V. 200 amps. is 200 if is 120 or 240, You can not change Amperage Voltage yes Amperage "NO" for 240 Volt max. is 200 amps./leg Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. Sigh. Do we have to go through this all over again? A service rated at 240V, 200A will support a load of 240V, 200A or a balanced load of 120V, 400A. Yes the current in the service conductors never exceeds 200A, but if you have 200A flowing through one leg through 200A of 120V loads, through another 200A of 120V loads, and then back out the other leg, it's handling 400A of 120V loads. Dear Sir you look at it your way and I will look at it my way. have nice day The point is the neutral only handles the unbalanced load between the 2 ungrounded conductors and is they were both pulling equal amounts, the current in the neutral is zero. Arguing any point of fact with trader is a total waste of time and bandwidth, and means I have to see his (reposted) drivel. You ****ing moron, you're the drivel. Can you even read? What exactly have I posted here that is wrong? What I posted is 100% consistent with what Gfre just posted. There is no "arguing" between us. It's Tony944 that's confused, again: "Each "leg" of 120 Volt, will give max. 200 amps. assuming that neutral is rated for 400 amps. " And here you are, apparently siding with him and not knowing what you're talking about, again. There can never been more than 200 amps in the neutral of a 200A service. And then you have the nerve to start making comments about me? Maybe if you didn't have so many people blocked you could follow threads, educate yourself and stop making an ass of yourself. |
#160
Posted to alt.home.repair
|
|||
|
|||
Load capacity of 200-amp panel
On Saturday, June 25, 2016 at 11:23:00 PM UTC-4, wrote:
So the question was never answered. What do you call a panel with a dual main breaker 200/200. Is that called a 200 Amp service or a 400 Amp service? M It's a 200 amp service. But check in with Claire, the village idiot. If he says it's 400, then you know for double sure that it's 200. |
Reply |
Thread Tools | Search this Thread |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Forum | |||
Collapsible Panel Saw: Optimal Capacity is 10' x 5'? | Woodworking | |||
Washers - Front Load vs. Top Load | Home Repair | |||
Circuit breaker panel capacity | Home Repair | |||
gluing panel in flat panel door | Woodworking |