I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)
....
Could anybody give me some detailed pointers ...

You may as well just cut an access strip 8-12" wide from the light
location to the wall to start and be done with it. It'll be simpler to
repair that uniform area w/ a couple of joints than having to patch a
zillion smaller holes. Once you've gotten access, getting around the
corner will be relatively simple.

Alternatively, use a surface-mount track or embed a track raceway just
below the depth of the surface and finish over it. If it's metal
raceway it'll be ok to hide it.

Alternative two if there's any access to alternate wall and around,
sometimes one can go the long way 'round lengthwise w/ the joists and
find another way that there is access to get to the switch wall location
rather than the direct route. That, of course, depends on the layout
details not observable from here.

--

dpb writes:

blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)
...
Could anybody give me some detailed pointers ...

You may as well just cut an access strip 8-12" wide from the light
location to the wall to start and be done with it. It'll be simpler
to repair that uniform area w/ a couple of joints than having to patch
a zillion smaller holes. Once you've gotten access, getting around
the corner will be relatively simple.

Removing the access strip will be a PITA since the wall is
plaster/stucco over metal lathe (the wall is in a garage). Also, I
probably only need to bridge 2 or 3 joists so I was thinking that with
a flex bit I should only need a couple of holes.

The challenge that I worry about though is at the corner between wall
and celing since the joists are parallel to the wall so presumably
there is a joist sitting on top of the top plate.

I read somewhere that you can "notch" out a small area of the top
plate bridging the wall with the ceiling and run the wire across it. I
presume that you would need to cover the notch with a metal plate to
be safe (and code conformant).

Is this the best way or is there some way to drill a "diagonal" hole


Alternatively, use a surface-mount track or embed a track raceway just
below the depth of the surface and finish over it. If it's metal
raceway it'll be ok to hide it.

I would prefer to avoid conduit or track.

Alternative two if there's any access to alternate wall and around,
sometimes one can go the long way 'round lengthwise w/ the joists and
find another way that there is access to get to the switch wall
location rather than the direct route. That, of course, depends on
the layout details not observable from here.

The only other walls are exterior (it is a garage) which creates other
issues (e.g., insulation) plus it is truly a long way around.

On Oct 14, 11:06*am, blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)
...
Could anybody give me some detailed pointers ...

You may as well just cut an access strip 8-12" wide from the light
location to the wall to start and be done with it. *It'll be simpler
to repair that uniform area w/ a couple of joints than having to patch
a zillion smaller holes. *Once you've gotten access, getting around
the corner will be relatively simple.

Removing the access strip will be a PITA since the wall is
plaster/stucco over metal lathe (the wall is in a garage). Also, I
probably only need to bridge 2 or 3 joists so I was thinking that with
a flex bit I should only need a couple of holes.

The challenge that I worry about though is at the corner between wall
and celing since the joists are parallel to the wall so presumably
there is a joist sitting on top of the top plate.

I read somewhere that you can "notch" out a small area of the top
plate bridging the wall with the ceiling and run the wire across it. I
presume that you would need to cover the notch with a metal plate to
be safe (and code conformant).

Is this the best way or is there some way to drill a "diagonal" hole



Alternatively, use a surface-mount track or embed a track raceway just
below the depth of the surface and finish over it. *If it's metal
raceway it'll be ok to hide it.

I would prefer to avoid conduit or track.

Alternative two if there's any access to alternate wall and around,
sometimes one can go the long way 'round lengthwise w/ the joists and
find another way that there is access to get to the switch wall
location rather than the direct route. *That, of course, depends on
the layout details not observable from here.

The only other walls are exterior (it is a garage) which creates other
issues (e.g., insulation) plus it is truly a long way around.

How about a wireless switch?

R

On Oct 14, 7:21*am, blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
* *the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
* *wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

Blueman-

My buddy & I just did a very similar job recently; can lights.

The attic was accessible but not really; blown-in insulation & roof
line that gave less than a foot clearance. We tried for about 1/2 hr
to "fish / poke" the romex from ceiling box over to a closet access
hole in the ceiling with no luck.

I suggested (as did dpb to you) an access strip. My partner didnt
want the mess or repair. I offered an 5" access hole 1/2 way from the
ceiling box to the wall. We had the wire fished in less than 5 minutes
after cutting the hole (can light hole saw). Simple repair and no
trace.

Depending on the distance I would suggested the "strip method" or a
couple access holes (just avoid the joists)

If only the wall is that stucco stuff then an access hole at the top
of the wall & a strip on the ceiling (drywall?)

A diamond blade on a skilsaw or angle grinder will make short work of
the plaster, stucco, metal lathe. Use a helper with a shop vac or
duct tape the hose to the tool to get the dust.

Cut the access.....you'll be glad you did.

cheers
Bob

RicodJour writes:

F On Oct 14, 11:06*am, blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)
...
Could anybody give me some detailed pointers ...

You may as well just cut an access strip 8-12" wide from the light
location to the wall to start and be done with it. *It'll be simpler
to repair that uniform area w/ a couple of joints than having to patch
a zillion smaller holes. *Once you've gotten access, getting around
the corner will be relatively simple.

Removing the access strip will be a PITA since the wall is
plaster/stucco over metal lathe (the wall is in a garage). Also, I
probably only need to bridge 2 or 3 joists so I was thinking that with
a flex bit I should only need a couple of holes.

The challenge that I worry about though is at the corner between wall
and celing since the joists are parallel to the wall so presumably
there is a joist sitting on top of the top plate.

I read somewhere that you can "notch" out a small area of the top
plate bridging the wall with the ceiling and run the wire across it. I
presume that you would need to cover the notch with a metal plate to
be safe (and code conformant).

Is this the best way or is there some way to drill a "diagonal" hole



Alternatively, use a surface-mount track or embed a track raceway just
below the depth of the surface and finish over it. *If it's metal
raceway it'll be ok to hide it.

I would prefer to avoid conduit or track.

Alternative two if there's any access to alternate wall and around,
sometimes one can go the long way 'round lengthwise w/ the joists and
find another way that there is access to get to the switch wall
location rather than the direct route. *That, of course, depends on
the layout details not observable from here.

The only other walls are exterior (it is a garage) which creates other
issues (e.g., insulation) plus it is truly a long way around.

How about a wireless switch?

Well the issue is more getting power to the light which I would need
to do regardless. The switch is already there by the source of power.
I just need to get power to the center of the ceiling to replace an
old wall mounted sconce which is in the way and dangerous since it
always gets hit by all the stuff moving in and out of the garage.

DD_BobK writes:

On Oct 14, 7:21*am, blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
* *the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
* *wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

Blueman-

My buddy & I just did a very similar job recently; can lights.

The attic was accessible but not really; blown-in insulation & roof
line that gave less than a foot clearance. We tried for about 1/2 hr
to "fish / poke" the romex from ceiling box over to a closet access
hole in the ceiling with no luck.

I suggested (as did dpb to you) an access strip. My partner didnt
want the mess or repair. I offered an 5" access hole 1/2 way from the
ceiling box to the wall. We had the wire fished in less than 5 minutes
after cutting the hole (can light hole saw). Simple repair and no
trace.

Depending on the distance I would suggested the "strip method" or a
couple access holes (just avoid the joists)

If only the wall is that stucco stuff then an access hole at the top
of the wall & a strip on the ceiling (drywall?)

A diamond blade on a skilsaw or angle grinder will make short work of
the plaster, stucco, metal lathe. Use a helper with a shop vac or
duct tape the hose to the tool to get the dust.

Cut the access.....you'll be glad you did.

Yes I agree. The question for me is just how to minimize. The ceiling
also appears to be a similar plaster & wire lathe which is a PITA.

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).

Again, I'm sure that with removing enough material, I could do
anything. I'm just trying to learn the tricks-of-the-trade so that I
don't do any unnecessary demolition or do anything
unsafe/unprofessional-looking.

On Oct 14, 12:24*pm, blueman wrote:

Yes I agree. The question for me is just how to minimize. The ceiling
also appears to be a similar plaster & wire lathe which is a PITA.

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).

Again, I'm sure that with removing enough material, I could do
anything. I'm just trying to learn the tricks-of-the-trade so that I
don't do any unnecessary demolition or do anything
unsafe/unprofessional-looking.

{tapping microphone}
Testing, testing, one, two, three. Hello, can you hear me?

What about a wireless switch? If you have access above the light
location, you probably don't need to cut any holes in the ceiling
(other than the ceiling outlet) or wall.

R

blueman wrote:
....

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).
....

W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a specific
situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make enough
access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more professional" in
the end to have the two seams patched than a whole bunch of 'em--and
you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway to get thru 'em
unless you do go under.

As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from the
ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what you
think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
that's me; others like the other.

Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed w/o
the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to do
the finish. The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid something
but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.

imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...

--

dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
...

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).
...

W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a
specific situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make
enough access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more
professional" in the end to have the two seams patched than a whole
bunch of 'em--and you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway
to get thru 'em unless you do go under.

As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from
the ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what
you think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
that's me; others like the other.

This is what I wanted to know.
I didn't want to go around notching or drilling only to find out a few
days later that I violated a key code item or created structural
integrity issues.


Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed
w/o the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to
do the finish. The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid
something but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.

imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...

You are partly right - but I am pretty experienced at least relative
to my peers though maybe not relative to all the experts here.
However, I do like to learn and do things right -- and I hate when I
do something impulsively only to find out a little later that there
was an easier/better way to do it -- or even worse to find out that my
solution is unsafe or won't last requiring rework.

I believe in measuring several times before cutting... because I have
been burned many times when I rush to cut first...

RicodJour writes:

On Oct 14, 12:24*pm, blueman wrote:

Yes I agree. The question for me is just how to minimize. The ceiling
also appears to be a similar plaster & wire lathe which is a PITA.

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).

Again, I'm sure that with removing enough material, I could do
anything. I'm just trying to learn the tricks-of-the-trade so that I
don't do any unnecessary demolition or do anything
unsafe/unprofessional-looking.

{tapping microphone}
Testing, testing, one, two, three. Hello, can you hear me?

What about a wireless switch? If you have access above the light
location, you probably don't need to cut any holes in the ceiling
(other than the ceiling outlet) or wall.


No access or power to area above light location. The trick is getting
power to the center of the ceiling with or without a switch.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)


*Those long flexible bits are very nice, but I rarely use them. There are
usually obstacles such as wiring, water pipes and duct that the bit can
damage by drilling blindly. What I do is make an access hole in the center
between joists and drill each one with a regular ship auger bit. I cut the
holes at a 45 degree angle and am able to put the pieces back. For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw or
an angle grinder. Before you cut anything you should consider how you will
patch the holes.

My first choice to run a wire up from a switch into the ceiling is to make a
long narrow hole on the wall below the ceiling so my drill with bit will fit
in the space. Then I drill up at an angle towards where I want my wire to
go. Another option is to notch the top plate lay the wire in and put a
steel nail plate over the wire. I prefer the first method because it is
easier to patch when I cut the drywall at a 45 degree angle and I can
sometimes avoid cutting into the ceiling if other factors are good.

dpb wrote:
blueman wrote:
...

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).
...

W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a specific
situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make enough
access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more professional" in
the end to have the two seams patched than a whole bunch of 'em--and
you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway to get thru 'em
unless you do go under.

As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from the
ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what you
think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
that's me; others like the other.

Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed w/o
the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to do
the finish. The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid something
but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.

imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...

--

I've experienced this exact phenomenon. A few days ago, i realized i
had a bad cast iron sewer stack in the lower level of a two story house.
A year ago i would have sweated about how to access this pipe and
repair the plaster wall that was covered with paneling. Two days ago i
merely grabbed my claw bar and 3 pound hammer and took the entire wall
down to studs. A few sheets of sheetrock and it'll be like new in a few
days. And the cast iron sewer stack is repaired (with pvc and fernco's)
already. As a bonus, i'll also have two new outlets in properly mounted
boxes in this wall. G

s

On Oct 14, 1:03*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

snip

*For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw or
an angle grinder.

If you are trying to cut through a lathe, a Victor cutting torch and
#2 tip would work better. A shade 8 shield for the eyes is good, as
well as leather gloves and apron.
OTOH, if the OP is working with expanded metal lath and plaster, then
carbide blades are the ticket. G

Joe

blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
....
As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from
the ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what
you think is simpler. There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
that's me; others like the other.

This is what I wanted to know.
I didn't want to go around notching or drilling only to find out a few
days later that I violated a key code item or created structural
integrity issues.

Well, you still _could_, but nobody here can see the actual construction
you have to tell.

In general, you can drill a hole near the center of a structural element
within code for wiring as long as the diameter is "small" wrt to the
element itself. There's actually some guidelines iirc but I don't know
them otomh and again they'll be general for things like joists, etc.

A notch at the lower edge of an unsupported beam/joist is structurally
more damaging than the hole in the middle because it leads to stress
concentration points at the point the longitudinal fibers of the beam
are cut. Generally, as long as it's relatively small, that'll not be an
issue; there's normally far more than enough material in the structure
that the amount removed to clear a piece of romex will not be missed.

But, of course, there's always that one-in-a-million strange situation
that could be the killer...it isn't at all likely, but nobody can say
uncategorically that your modification is ok w/o seeing it.

That said, again, it's not something likely and I'm not trying to raise
concern, simply stating that since nobody in a.h.r can see your
situation all can do is provide a general guide. If you were to see
something you think is questionable, then you need to get hands-on local
advice.

....

"blueman" wrote in message
...
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

After reading all the other replies use wire mould. You could have it done
in a little more time than reading these replies. WW

I think you have to think outside of the box.

Can you go down and then up some where else like where it will be easier to
run parallel to the joints?

There's nothing saying you have to take the direct route.


"blueman" wrote in message
...
RicodJour writes:

F On Oct 14, 11:06 am, blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
ceiling)
...
Could anybody give me some detailed pointers ...

You may as well just cut an access strip 8-12" wide from the light
location to the wall to start and be done with it. It'll be simpler
to repair that uniform area w/ a couple of joints than having to patch
a zillion smaller holes. Once you've gotten access, getting around
the corner will be relatively simple.

Removing the access strip will be a PITA since the wall is
plaster/stucco over metal lathe (the wall is in a garage). Also, I
probably only need to bridge 2 or 3 joists so I was thinking that with
a flex bit I should only need a couple of holes.

The challenge that I worry about though is at the corner between wall
and celing since the joists are parallel to the wall so presumably
there is a joist sitting on top of the top plate.

I read somewhere that you can "notch" out a small area of the top
plate bridging the wall with the ceiling and run the wire across it. I
presume that you would need to cover the notch with a metal plate to
be safe (and code conformant).

Is this the best way or is there some way to drill a "diagonal" hole



Alternatively, use a surface-mount track or embed a track raceway just
below the depth of the surface and finish over it. If it's metal
raceway it'll be ok to hide it.

I would prefer to avoid conduit or track.

Alternative two if there's any access to alternate wall and around,
sometimes one can go the long way 'round lengthwise w/ the joists and
find another way that there is access to get to the switch wall
location rather than the direct route. That, of course, depends on
the layout details not observable from here.

The only other walls are exterior (it is a garage) which creates other
issues (e.g., insulation) plus it is truly a long way around.

How about a wireless switch?

Well the issue is more getting power to the light which I would need
to do regardless. The switch is already there by the source of power.
I just need to get power to the center of the ceiling to replace an
old wall mounted sconce which is in the way and dangerous since it
always gets hit by all the stuff moving in and out of the garage.

WW wrote:
....
After reading all the other replies use wire mould. You could have it done
in a little more time than reading these replies. WW
....
First suggestion...rejected.

--

On Oct 14, 9:59*am, dpb wrote:
blueman wrote:

...

But my question is really more about how to get around the top plate
and joist at the wall/ceiling junction.

The only solution I have seen so far is to "notch" the top-plate (and
perhaps a tiny bit of the joist resting on the top plate) which then
get covered with a metal plate before plastering over.

I just want to make sure that this is the best/easiest/safest way for
doing what I am trying to do (assuming that I want the wire to be
concealed within the wall & ceiling cavities).

...

W/O actually seeing to tell if there's a trick to be used for a specific
situation, the answer is what you've already been told--make enough
access for the job--it's simpler and will look "more professional" in
the end to have the two seams patched than a whole bunch of 'em--and
you're going to have to drill all the joists anyway to get thru 'em
unless you do go under.

As for the corner, it's take your pick -- you can drill an access hole
large enough to fish from the switch location to catch the fish from the
ceiling and pull it through or notch -- it's your call as to what you
think is simpler. *There really isn't a whole lot to choose; imo
drilling the holes is generally easier than trying to cut a notch but
that's me; others like the other.

Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er--the pro just goes ahead and does what's needed w/o
the agonizing and finishes the job at hand because he knows how to do
the finish. *The diy'er isn't comfortable w/ the plaster work or
whatever so tries to figure out ways that he thinks can avoid something
but rarely is that as successful as just biting the bullet.

imo, $0.02, etc., etc., ...

--

Excessively worrying about avoiding demolition is the sign of the
inexperienced/diy'er-

Amen on that! I used to fiddy f... around worrying about doing to
much damage / demo.

More but "thoughtful" demo (like back to a corner, an entire wall, mid-
stud, etc) is easier & faster to get the new work done AND restore
the entire system to working order than "selective" / piecemeal demo
method

Thats why for a bathroom or a kitchen (unless some cool vintage stuff
is being saved) its better to go all the way to studs (well, at least
on the plumbing & electrical walls) .

Sorry I didn;t address "how to get around the corner" of the top
plates & the joist at the wall (or at the plate)........ missed it.

I would drill up through the double top plate with ~7/8 bit & then a
intersecting hole at the center line of the joist.
Both of these holes are a snap to drill if you use the strip method of
access.
a pieced of romex can be poked / fished this way...install a nail
plate on the both top plates & you;re done.

cheers
Bob

Joe writes:
On Oct 14, 1:03*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:

snip

*For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw or
an angle grinder.

If you are trying to cut through a lathe, a Victor cutting torch and
#2 tip would work better. A shade 8 shield for the eyes is good, as
well as leather gloves and apron.
OTOH, if the OP is working with expanded metal lath and plaster, then
carbide blades are the ticket. G


What has been working pretty well so far is a tile-cutting roto-zip
blade in by Ryobi (yeah I know low end) cordless zip tool.

Other drywall & wood bits got burned up in no time just in the plaster
alone even before reaching the metal lathe, but the "diamond" blade is
made for tile, cementous board, and plaster so it cuts really well.

dpb writes:
WW wrote:
...
After reading all the other replies use wire mould. You could have
it done in a little more time than reading these replies. WW
...
First suggestion...rejected.

Yes but it's a 150 year old Italianate house and wire-mold just seems
to be wrong. Call me a stickler or anal but I'm willing to put in the
time and pain to do it "right."

For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide hole saw
or
an angle grinder.

If you are trying to cut through a lathe, a Victor cutting torch and
#2 tip would work better. A shade 8 shield for the eyes is good, as
well as leather gloves and apron.
OTOH, if the OP is working with expanded metal lath and plaster, then
carbide blades are the ticket. G


What has been working pretty well so far is a tile-cutting roto-zip
blade in by Ryobi (yeah I know low end) cordless zip tool.

Other drywall & wood bits got burned up in no time just in the plaster
alone even before reaching the metal lathe, but the "diamond" blade is
made for tile, cementous board, and plaster so it cuts really well.



*If you can spare the time how about taking some photos of the job as you go
along and post them when you are finished. It's not too often that we get
to see a 150 year old house.

blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

Lower-impact alternate solution-
Remove the current sconce that is causing the problems. Go up in same
stud bay to about 18" from ceiling, and install a focused spot like
they use in museums, to paint the center of the ceiling with light. Find
a style-appropriate spotlight at a specialty lighting dealer, or use a
modern light shielded from direct view by the shell of the old sconce,
installed below it. (making the rash assumption the style of the
existing sconce could be adapted for that) They have some rather tiny
halogen aimable spot cans now that put out an amazing amount of light.

Hey, just an idea. Hard to say without seeing the garage and the
existing light.

--
aem sends...

On Oct 14, 6:51*pm, aemeijers wrote:
blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
* *the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
* *wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to..

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

Lower-impact alternate solution-
Remove the current sconce that is causing the problems. Go up in same
stud bay to about 18" from ceiling, and *install a focused spot like
they use in museums, to paint the center of the ceiling with light. Find
a style-appropriate spotlight at a specialty lighting dealer, or use a
modern light shielded from direct view by the shell of the old sconce,
installed below it. (making the rash assumption the style of the
existing sconce could be adapted for that) They have some rather tiny
halogen aimable spot cans now that put out an amazing amount of light.

Hey, just an idea. Hard to say without seeing the garage and the
existing light.

--
aem sends...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

This seems like a reasonable, easy, solution, and the old sconce
fixture can be replaced by a unit that does not stick out as far on
the wall so it doesn't get hit as often.

On Wed, 14 Oct 2009 19:51:08 -0400, aemeijers
wrote:

blueman wrote:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

What kind of floor is above????
Generally easier to pull/patch a few floor boards than a plaster
cieling.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Again a whole lot easier lifting a floor board. Then drill DOWN
through the top plate and across through the joists.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks

Lower-impact alternate solution-
Remove the current sconce that is causing the problems. Go up in same
stud bay to about 18" from ceiling, and install a focused spot like
they use in museums, to paint the center of the ceiling with light. Find
a style-appropriate spotlight at a specialty lighting dealer, or use a
modern light shielded from direct view by the shell of the old sconce,
installed below it. (making the rash assumption the style of the
existing sconce could be adapted for that) They have some rather tiny
halogen aimable spot cans now that put out an amazing amount of light.

Hey, just an idea. Hard to say without seeing the garage and the
existing light.

blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
WW wrote:
...
After reading all the other replies use wire mould. You could have
it done in a little more time than reading these replies. WW
...
First suggestion...rejected.

Yes but it's a 150 year old Italianate house and wire-mold just seems
to be wrong. Call me a stickler or anal but I'm willing to put in the
time and pain to do it "right."

I wasn't criticizing you; just squashing the other guy...

--

"Cliff Hartle" writes:
I think you have to think outside of the box.

Can you go down and then up some where else like where it will be easier to
run parallel to the joints?

There's nothing saying you have to take the direct route.

True. But the garage is on slab (so no good down). Also the other 3
walls are exterior walls so even harder to get around.
Up is hard because there is living space above and no attic.
Not saying it is impossible, but probably harder than the direct route
which is only about 5 feet up and 5 feet across the ceiling.

"John Grabowski" writes:


For plaster
and lathe I think that you might be better off using a carbide
hole saw or
an angle grinder.

If you are trying to cut through a lathe, a Victor cutting torch and
#2 tip would work better. A shade 8 shield for the eyes is good, as
well as leather gloves and apron.
OTOH, if the OP is working with expanded metal lath and plaster, then
carbide blades are the ticket. G


What has been working pretty well so far is a tile-cutting roto-zip
blade in by Ryobi (yeah I know low end) cordless zip tool.

Other drywall & wood bits got burned up in no time just in the plaster
alone even before reaching the metal lathe, but the "diamond" blade is
made for tile, cementous board, and plaster so it cuts really well.



*If you can spare the time how about taking some photos of the job as
you go along and post them when you are finished. It's not too often
that we get to see a 150 year old house.

Sorry - I ended up finishing before I read your post. I will post a
full account though. Actually the part of the house I was working on
is reportedly from the late 1700's so actually more than 200 years old
though there are no good records going back that far in our town.

blueman writes:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks.

Here is my report back on what I did and how I did it.

I ended up going the direct route of snaking across the ceiling and
down the wall. Again, my primary priority was doing this in a lasting
and professional way since I feel an obligation to the generations of
previous owners of our historic house (main part is Italianate built
in the 1860's and the garage is part of a wing that reportedly dates
back to the late 1700's!!!).

First, cutting through the ceiling was even harder than anticipated --
even to just cut out the hole for the ceiling box and the intermediate
holes for snaking the wires. There were multiple layers. Starting from
the exterior:

1. Rough 1/2" layer of hard plaster/stucco
2. Tough metal lathe. Actually the lathe on the ceiling was mostly solid
metal with some grooves. The lathe on the sides was thick fine
mesh.
3. Another 1/2 layer of plaster keyed into wooden lathe
4. 1/2" wooden lathe
5. Loose fill insulation (not sure what it is but it was very light,
gray in color and almost like very light sawdust or cotton whisps)

I needed to use a diamond cutter in my rotary zip saw to cut through
the stuff and it made a real mess -- unfortunately, I didn't have a
helper to hold a shop vac...

Also the joists were irregularly spaced and more like 4x lumber.
There was also a fireblock-like horizontal element in the stud
bay. Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. I added metal plates over
any place that I passed over a structural element.

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. I again added protective metal plates.

To prevent the loose fill insulation from continuing to leak out from
the ceiling holes on me and the floor, I stuffed in some loose
fiberglass insulation (pulled off some extra bats). This served both
to replace some of the stuff that fell out and also served as a block
against new loose fill floating out which otherwise continued to fall
on me and the floor.

Even after creating the path, pulling the wire through was still very
difficult despite the fact that the path was only 10 feet long and had
only one corner (at the floor-ceiling junction). This was presumably
due to the irregular nature of the space and protruding nails,
plaster, etc. along the pull path.

I filled in the holes in two steps. First a layer of 20minute setting
compound directly over the lathe or metal plates (I find the setting
compound to be very hard and durable). Then a skim coat of a
concoction that I made to mimic the existing surface created out of
combining about 1-part ready mix stucco patch compound with 1-part
setting joint compound plus water and some Zinser primer (to match the
color since the walls/ceilings seem to be more whitewashed than
painted).

Rewiring the switch box was also a PITA since it was part of a 4-gang
bakelite plastic box embedded in the tiled kitchen backsplash (which
is on the other side of the garage wall). To feed in the new wire, I
ended up needing to literally bust out the old embedded bakelite box
and replaced it with a 4-gang 3-1/2" deep metal box -- I wanted the
extra room since 2 of the 4 switches were three way (including the
gargage light one) and 2 of the switches were big elements (1 Lutron
dimmer and 1 Aube timer) -- there were a total of 8 wires passing in
and out of the box (all same circuit though).

While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, I accomplished the following:
1. No unsightly external boxes or track mold
2. Minimum patching (just a couple of small holes)
3. Minimal mess from demolition and from leaking loose fill insulation
(had I ripped out a large swathe, I would be drowning in fallen
insulation and plaster --- and I would have needed to find a way to
replace insulation in the entire joist bay)
4. Minimized amount of cutting through solid metal lathe
5. No disturbing of structural elements.
6. No intrusion or damage to other adjoining finished rooms.

On Oct 16, 10:45*am, blueman wrote:
blueman writes:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
* *the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
* *wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to..

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks.

Here is my report back on what I did and how I did it.

I ended up going the direct route of snaking across the ceiling and
down the wall. Again, my primary priority was doing this in a lasting
and professional way since I feel an obligation to the generations of
previous owners of our historic house (main part is Italianate built
in the 1860's and the garage is part of a wing that reportedly dates
back to the late 1700's!!!).

First, cutting through the ceiling was even harder than anticipated --
even to just cut out the hole for the ceiling box and the intermediate
holes for snaking the wires. There were multiple layers. Starting from
the exterior:

1. Rough 1/2" layer of hard plaster/stucco
2. Tough metal lathe. Actually the lathe on the ceiling was mostly solid
* *metal with some grooves. The lathe on the sides was thick fine
* *mesh.
3. Another 1/2 layer of plaster keyed into wooden lathe
4. 1/2" wooden lathe
5. Loose fill insulation (not sure what it is but it was very light,
* *gray in color and almost like very light sawdust or cotton whisps)

I needed to use a diamond cutter in my rotary zip saw to cut through
the stuff and it made a real mess -- unfortunately, I didn't have a
helper to hold a shop vac...

Also the joists were irregularly spaced and more like 4x lumber.
There was also a fireblock-like horizontal element in the stud
bay. Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. I added metal plates over
any place that I passed over a structural element.

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. I again added protective metal plates.

To prevent the loose fill insulation from continuing to leak out from
the ceiling holes on me and the floor, I stuffed in some loose
fiberglass insulation (pulled off some extra bats). This served both
to replace some of the stuff that fell out and also served as a block
against new loose fill floating out which otherwise continued to fall
on me and the floor.

Even after creating the path, pulling the wire through was still very
difficult despite the fact that the path was only 10 feet long and had
only one corner (at the floor-ceiling junction). This was presumably
due to the irregular nature of the space and protruding nails,
plaster, etc. along the pull path.

I filled in the holes in two steps. First a layer of 20minute setting
compound directly over the lathe or metal plates *(I find the setting
compound to be very hard and durable). Then a skim coat of a
concoction that I made to mimic the existing surface created out of
combining about 1-part ready mix stucco patch compound with 1-part
setting joint compound plus water and some Zinser primer (to match the
color since the walls/ceilings seem to be more whitewashed than
painted).

Rewiring the switch box was also a PITA since it was part of a 4-gang
bakelite plastic box embedded in the tiled kitchen backsplash (which
is on the other side of the garage wall). To feed in the new wire, I
ended up needing to literally bust out the old embedded bakelite box
and replaced it with a 4-gang 3-1/2" deep metal box -- I wanted the
extra room since 2 of the 4 switches were three way (including the
gargage light one) and 2 of the switches were big elements (1 Lutron
dimmer and 1 Aube timer) -- there were a total of 8 wires passing in
and out of the box (all same circuit though).

While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, I accomplished the following:
1. No unsightly external boxes or track mold
2. Minimum patching (just a couple of small holes)
3. Minimal mess from demolition and from leaking loose fill insulation
* *(had I ripped out a large swathe, I would be drowning in fallen
* *insulation and plaster --- and I would have needed to find a way to
* *replace insulation in the entire joist bay)
4. Minimized amount of cutting through solid metal lathe
5. No disturbing of structural elements.
6. No intrusion or damage to other adjoining finished rooms.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"...had only one corner (at the floor-ceiling junction)."

The floor-ceiling junction?

They must have used some pretty short walls back in 1860's!

blueman wrote:
....
... Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. ...

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. ...
....
While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, ...

And, as suggested, you found a _far_ different set of conditions than
anybody here could have any hope of knowing any about and so the reason
for many of the suggestions were obviated.

That's not intended at all at criticism; only observation that advice is
only as good as the input and _if_ the condition had indeed been that of
solid plaster against the joists your solution options would have been
pretty much as suggested.

Sounds like kewl place; I've noted here before that did quite a number
of major restorations of antebellum houses in Lynchburg, VA, years ago
that had all kinds of similar surprises buried in them. Par for the
course...

--

On Oct 16, 10:45*am, blueman wrote:

I filled in the holes in two steps. First a layer of 20minute setting
compound directly over the lathe or metal plates *(I find the setting
compound to be very hard and durable). Then a skim coat of a
concoction that I made to mimic the existing surface created out of
combining about 1-part ready mix stucco patch compound with 1-part
setting joint compound plus water and some Zinser primer (to match the
color since the walls/ceilings seem to be more whitewashed than
painted).

That was a nice touch.

R

DerbyDad03 writes:

On Oct 16, 10:45*am, blueman wrote:
blueman writes:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
* *the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
* *wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks.

Here is my report back on what I did and how I did it.

I ended up going the direct route of snaking across the ceiling and
down the wall. Again, my primary priority was doing this in a lasting
and professional way since I feel an obligation to the generations of
previous owners of our historic house (main part is Italianate built
in the 1860's and the garage is part of a wing that reportedly dates
back to the late 1700's!!!).

First, cutting through the ceiling was even harder than anticipated --
even to just cut out the hole for the ceiling box and the intermediate
holes for snaking the wires. There were multiple layers. Starting from
the exterior:

1. Rough 1/2" layer of hard plaster/stucco
2. Tough metal lathe. Actually the lathe on the ceiling was mostly solid
* *metal with some grooves. The lathe on the sides was thick fine
* *mesh.
3. Another 1/2 layer of plaster keyed into wooden lathe
4. 1/2" wooden lathe
5. Loose fill insulation (not sure what it is but it was very light,
* *gray in color and almost like very light sawdust or cotton whisps)

I needed to use a diamond cutter in my rotary zip saw to cut through
the stuff and it made a real mess -- unfortunately, I didn't have a
helper to hold a shop vac...

Also the joists were irregularly spaced and more like 4x lumber.
There was also a fireblock-like horizontal element in the stud
bay. Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. I added metal plates over
any place that I passed over a structural element.

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. I again added protective metal plates.

To prevent the loose fill insulation from continuing to leak out from
the ceiling holes on me and the floor, I stuffed in some loose
fiberglass insulation (pulled off some extra bats). This served both
to replace some of the stuff that fell out and also served as a block
against new loose fill floating out which otherwise continued to fall
on me and the floor.

Even after creating the path, pulling the wire through was still very
difficult despite the fact that the path was only 10 feet long and had
only one corner (at the floor-ceiling junction). This was presumably
due to the irregular nature of the space and protruding nails,
plaster, etc. along the pull path.

I filled in the holes in two steps. First a layer of 20minute setting
compound directly over the lathe or metal plates *(I find the setting
compound to be very hard and durable). Then a skim coat of a
concoction that I made to mimic the existing surface created out of
combining about 1-part ready mix stucco patch compound with 1-part
setting joint compound plus water and some Zinser primer (to match the
color since the walls/ceilings seem to be more whitewashed than
painted).

Rewiring the switch box was also a PITA since it was part of a 4-gang
bakelite plastic box embedded in the tiled kitchen backsplash (which
is on the other side of the garage wall). To feed in the new wire, I
ended up needing to literally bust out the old embedded bakelite box
and replaced it with a 4-gang 3-1/2" deep metal box -- I wanted the
extra room since 2 of the 4 switches were three way (including the
gargage light one) and 2 of the switches were big elements (1 Lutron
dimmer and 1 Aube timer) -- there were a total of 8 wires passing in
and out of the box (all same circuit though).

While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, I accomplished the following:
1. No unsightly external boxes or track mold
2. Minimum patching (just a couple of small holes)
3. Minimal mess from demolition and from leaking loose fill insulation
* *(had I ripped out a large swathe, I would be drowning in fallen
* *insulation and plaster --- and I would have needed to find a way to
* *replace insulation in the entire joist bay)
4. Minimized amount of cutting through solid metal lathe
5. No disturbing of structural elements.
6. No intrusion or damage to other adjoining finished rooms.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"...had only one corner (at the floor-ceiling junction)."

The floor-ceiling junction?

They must have used some pretty short walls back in 1860's!

Doh... wall-ceiling....

dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
...
... Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. ...

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. ...
...
While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, ...

And, as suggested, you found a _far_ different set of conditions than
anybody here could have any hope of knowing any about and so the
reason for many of the suggestions were obviated.

That's not intended at all at criticism; only observation that advice
is only as good as the input and _if_ the condition had indeed been
that of solid plaster against the joists your solution options would
have been pretty much as suggested.

Thanks and I certainly didn't mean to appear to be criticizing or
ungrateful for the many and varied suggestions offered by you and
others. As you can probably tell, when it comes to working on my home,
I tend to be more on the perfectionist side of things -- I know that
such an approach would never be profitable as a business but it does
usually let me get the results I want even if the effort is sometimes
over the top. In fact, that is one of the reasons I DIY rather than
hire even though it costs me more in time than I would have to pay
someone else -- but at least I get the quality and approach I want
(along with self-satisfaction) which is something that money often
can't buy anymore.

Sounds like kewl place; I've noted here before that did quite a number
of major restorations of antebellum houses in Lynchburg, VA, years ago
that had all kinds of similar surprises buried in them. Par for the
course...

Thanks - sounds like you have had the same mixture of fun and
frustrations that I have had. But I wouldn't trade my old house for
any post-1920's or so house -- though perhaps I would be tempted by a
new megamansion (at least until the newness wears off).

One great advantage of vintage houses vs. new ones is that my house
only gets better and more valuable with age whereas even the latest
and greatest megamansion starts looking "dated" after a decade or so
since it's key selling point are modernity, latest-and-greatest, and
up-to-date styling -- none of which by definition are lasting
attributes. It's like a slower version of the problem that a new car
loses value the second you drive it out of the lot whereas an antique
car increases in value with proper upkeep.

"blueman" wrote in message
...
blueman writes:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks.

Here is my report back on what I did and how I did it.

I ended up going the direct route of snaking across the ceiling and
down the wall. Again, my primary priority was doing this in a lasting
and professional way since I feel an obligation to the generations of
previous owners of our historic house (main part is Italianate built
in the 1860's and the garage is part of a wing that reportedly dates
back to the late 1700's!!!).

First, cutting through the ceiling was even harder than anticipated --
even to just cut out the hole for the ceiling box and the intermediate
holes for snaking the wires. There were multiple layers. Starting from
the exterior:

1. Rough 1/2" layer of hard plaster/stucco
2. Tough metal lathe. Actually the lathe on the ceiling was mostly solid
metal with some grooves. The lathe on the sides was thick fine
mesh.
3. Another 1/2 layer of plaster keyed into wooden lathe
4. 1/2" wooden lathe
5. Loose fill insulation (not sure what it is but it was very light,
gray in color and almost like very light sawdust or cotton whisps)

I needed to use a diamond cutter in my rotary zip saw to cut through
the stuff and it made a real mess -- unfortunately, I didn't have a
helper to hold a shop vac...

fyi: diamond tools don't last long cutting metals. you want to try an
abrasive type of cutting tool instead.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:07:48 -0400, blueman wrote:

"Cliff Hartle" writes:
I think you have to think outside of the box.

Can you go down and then up some where else like where it will be easier to
run parallel to the joints?

There's nothing saying you have to take the direct route.

True. But the garage is on slab (so no good down). Also the other 3
walls are exterior walls so even harder to get around.
Up is hard because there is living space above and no attic.
Not saying it is impossible, but probably harder than the direct route
which is only about 5 feet up and 5 feet across the ceiling.


Gotta love slab construction, eh???

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 11:44:15 -0400, blueman wrote:

dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
...
... Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. ...

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. ...
...
While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, ...

And, as suggested, you found a _far_ different set of conditions than
anybody here could have any hope of knowing any about and so the
reason for many of the suggestions were obviated.

That's not intended at all at criticism; only observation that advice
is only as good as the input and _if_ the condition had indeed been
that of solid plaster against the joists your solution options would
have been pretty much as suggested.

Thanks and I certainly didn't mean to appear to be criticizing or
ungrateful for the many and varied suggestions offered by you and
others. As you can probably tell, when it comes to working on my home,
I tend to be more on the perfectionist side of things -- I know that
such an approach would never be profitable as a business but it does
usually let me get the results I want even if the effort is sometimes
over the top. In fact, that is one of the reasons I DIY rather than
hire even though it costs me more in time than I would have to pay
someone else -- but at least I get the quality and approach I want
(along with self-satisfaction) which is something that money often
can't buy anymore.

Sounds like kewl place; I've noted here before that did quite a number
of major restorations of antebellum houses in Lynchburg, VA, years ago
that had all kinds of similar surprises buried in them. Par for the
course...

Thanks - sounds like you have had the same mixture of fun and
frustrations that I have had. But I wouldn't trade my old house for
any post-1920's or so house -- though perhaps I would be tempted by a
new megamansion (at least until the newness wears off).

One great advantage of vintage houses vs. new ones is that my house
only gets better and more valuable with age whereas even the latest
and greatest megamansion starts looking "dated" after a decade or so
since it's key selling point are modernity, latest-and-greatest, and
up-to-date styling -- none of which by definition are lasting
attributes. It's like a slower version of the problem that a new car
loses value the second you drive it out of the lot whereas an antique
car increases in value with proper upkeep.


The definition of CONTEMPORARY?

A temporary con.

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:50:24 -0700, "charlie"
wrote:


"blueman" wrote in message
...
blueman writes:
I need to run a wire from a switch on the wall up the wall and across
the ceiling to a new overhead light. (Note that unfortunately, the
joists run perpendicular to the direction that I need to traverse the
ceiling)

Doing so presents the following two problems for me:
1. How do I make the right angle turn through the top plate and into
the ceiling joist bay?

2. How do I go through the joists as I traverse the ceiling from the
wall edge to the center light location?

Note I don't have the option of using an unfinished attic or basement
to help me. I am trying to avoid ripping up more plaster than I need to.

I plan on buying a long flexible 1/2" bit which I believe should at
least help me with #2, though I'm a bit short on the details of where
I drill the entry and exit holes and how I achieve the right bend and
angle to go through the middle of the joist.

However, I am a lot more stumped about how I make the right angle
transition from the wall bay into the ceiling joist bay.

Could anybody give me some detailed pointers and/or point me to any
online videos? (I tried googling but found only general suggestions
such as using a flex bit)

Thanks.

Here is my report back on what I did and how I did it.

I ended up going the direct route of snaking across the ceiling and
down the wall. Again, my primary priority was doing this in a lasting
and professional way since I feel an obligation to the generations of
previous owners of our historic house (main part is Italianate built
in the 1860's and the garage is part of a wing that reportedly dates
back to the late 1700's!!!).

First, cutting through the ceiling was even harder than anticipated --
even to just cut out the hole for the ceiling box and the intermediate
holes for snaking the wires. There were multiple layers. Starting from
the exterior:

1. Rough 1/2" layer of hard plaster/stucco
2. Tough metal lathe. Actually the lathe on the ceiling was mostly solid
metal with some grooves. The lathe on the sides was thick fine
mesh.
3. Another 1/2 layer of plaster keyed into wooden lathe
4. 1/2" wooden lathe
5. Loose fill insulation (not sure what it is but it was very light,
gray in color and almost like very light sawdust or cotton whisps)

I needed to use a diamond cutter in my rotary zip saw to cut through
the stuff and it made a real mess -- unfortunately, I didn't have a
helper to hold a shop vac...

fyi: diamond tools don't last long cutting metals. you want to try an
abrasive type of cutting tool instead.

Which don't last worth crap cutting hard plaster and concrete ---

On Oct 16, 11:44*am, blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
...
... Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. ...

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. ...
...
While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, ...

And, as suggested, you found a _far_ different set of conditions than
anybody here could have any hope of knowing any about and so the
reason for many of the suggestions were obviated.

That's not intended at all at criticism; only observation that advice
is only as good as the input and _if_ the condition had indeed been
that of solid plaster against the joists your solution options would
have been pretty much as suggested.

Thanks and I certainly didn't mean to appear to be criticizing or
ungrateful for the many and varied suggestions offered by you and
others. As you can probably tell, when it comes to working on my home,
I tend to be more on the perfectionist side of things -- I know that
such an approach would never be profitable as a business but it does
usually let me get the results I want even if the effort is sometimes
over the top. In fact, that is one of the reasons I DIY rather than
hire even though it costs me more in time than I would have to pay
someone else -- but at least I get the quality and approach I want
(along with self-satisfaction) which is something that money often
can't buy anymore.

Well said, and entirely understandable and laudable.

Sounds like kewl place; I've noted here before that did quite a number
of major restorations of antebellum houses in Lynchburg, VA, years ago
that had all kinds of similar surprises buried in them. *Par for the
course...

Thanks - sounds like you have had the same mixture of fun and
frustrations that I have had. But I wouldn't trade my old house for
any post-1920's or so house -- though perhaps I would be tempted by a
new megamansion (at least until the newness wears off).

One great advantage of vintage houses vs. new ones is that my house
only gets better and more valuable with age whereas even the latest
and greatest megamansion starts looking "dated" after a decade or so
since it's key selling point are modernity, latest-and-greatest, and
up-to-date styling -- none of which by definition are lasting
attributes. It's like a slower version of the problem that a new car
loses value the second you drive it out of the lot whereas an antique
car increases in value with proper upkeep.

Unless the new house is in some wacky area and there was a wacky buyer
who overpaid, or unless the entire market is taking a downturn, new
houses and old houses go up in value at roughly the same rate.
Otherwise, an old house would be way more expensive than a new house -
and they're not.

R

On Fri, 16 Oct 2009 13:49:31 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:

On Oct 16, 11:44Â*am, blueman wrote:
dpb writes:
blueman wrote:
...
... Luckily by removing the wooden lathe (which itself often had a
gap between it and the underlying structural member), I was able to
find plenty of room to snake my pull string without having to drill
through (or notch) the structural elements. ...

I didn't end up needing to notch the corner since there was plenty of
room to bury the cable below the structural lumber due to all the
layers. ...
...
While doing it my way took a LOT longer than some of the other
suggestions, ...

And, as suggested, you found a _far_ different set of conditions than
anybody here could have any hope of knowing any about and so the
reason for many of the suggestions were obviated.

That's not intended at all at criticism; only observation that advice
is only as good as the input and _if_ the condition had indeed been
that of solid plaster against the joists your solution options would
have been pretty much as suggested.

Thanks and I certainly didn't mean to appear to be criticizing or
ungrateful for the many and varied suggestions offered by you and
others. As you can probably tell, when it comes to working on my home,
I tend to be more on the perfectionist side of things -- I know that
such an approach would never be profitable as a business but it does
usually let me get the results I want even if the effort is sometimes
over the top. In fact, that is one of the reasons I DIY rather than
hire even though it costs me more in time than I would have to pay
someone else -- but at least I get the quality and approach I want
(along with self-satisfaction) which is something that money often
can't buy anymore.

Well said, and entirely understandable and laudable.

Sounds like kewl place; I've noted here before that did quite a number
of major restorations of antebellum houses in Lynchburg, VA, years ago
that had all kinds of similar surprises buried in them. Â*Par for the
course...

Thanks - sounds like you have had the same mixture of fun and
frustrations that I have had. But I wouldn't trade my old house for
any post-1920's or so house -- though perhaps I would be tempted by a
new megamansion (at least until the newness wears off).

One great advantage of vintage houses vs. new ones is that my house
only gets better and more valuable with age whereas even the latest
and greatest megamansion starts looking "dated" after a decade or so
since it's key selling point are modernity, latest-and-greatest, and
up-to-date styling -- none of which by definition are lasting
attributes. It's like a slower version of the problem that a new car
loses value the second you drive it out of the lot whereas an antique
car increases in value with proper upkeep.

Unless the new house is in some wacky area and there was a wacky buyer
who overpaid, or unless the entire market is taking a downturn, new
houses and old houses go up in value at roughly the same rate.
Otherwise, an old house would be way more expensive than a new house -
and they're not.

R
In some areas, some are.
Many 100 year old houses are worth a lot more than a lot of equivalent
sized 30 year old houses - but location has a lot to do with it too.
The old houses on "snob hill" will always bring a higher price than
most suburban homes - and quite often more than new "infill" houses in
the same neighbourhood.