Oren wrote:

Once in Liberty City I experienced a few locals that had bones pierced
through their noses. That was in daylight, can you imagine what the
night looks like there?

Okay, I'll play. Where would YOU put your bone?

On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:21:46 GMT, "TKM" wrote:

How about this logic? If light reduces crime, why isn't crime, especially
household robbery, substantially lower during the daylight hours?

Some people are home during the day and report crimes, when robbed?

On Wed, 7 Jan 2009 17:27:53 -0600, "HeyBub"
wrote:

Oren wrote:

Once in Liberty City I experienced a few locals that had bones pierced
through their noses. That was in daylight, can you imagine what the
night looks like there?

Okay, I'll play. Where would YOU put your bone?


The first train smoking out of town! Or call the power company for
street lights, just so I could see.

that's because it has nothing to do with it.

s


"TKM" wrote in message
...
Oddly enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM

duh... It is.


s


"TKM" wrote in message
...


How about this logic? If light reduces crime, why isn't crime, especially
household robbery, substantially lower during the daylight hours?

TKM

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:25:58 -0800 (PST), terry
wrote:

Often wondered why street lights on all night. Wasted energy etc. Also
unnecessary pollution where electrcity is generated by coal or other
fossil fuel. Could save some small municipalities some cost?
I guess it would be better to have them on during the day?

Just why do you suppose we have street lights?

But we have too many lights were no one is using them. Look at the empty
parking lots and building that are well lit at midnight. Every time I'm in
a plane landing at night, I just marvel at the waste of electricity. Motion
detectors would make sense, At least reduced lighting in many places.


The scavengers that harvest other people's goods after midnight, would
dearly love a blackout period. The 3rd shift cops, not so much. Visit a
military base to see dark sky. Most of them have few if any
streetlights, other than in family housing. Makes finding the BOQ lotsa
fun if you get the main gate after dark. Military bases aren't real big
on street and building signs legible by anyone over 25 years old, either.

--
aem sends...

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:21:46 GMT, "TKM" wrote:

How about this logic? If light reduces crime, why isn't crime, especially
household robbery, substantially lower during the daylight hours?

Some people are home during the day and report crimes, when robbed?

Well, yes. Around my urban area, about half the homes are occupied with
people who work at home, retirees, etc.
My home has been robbed twice in the last 30 years. Once it was a kid who
took a bicycle from an open garage. I reported that right away and he was
caught. The other was more serious and involved 3-4 people looking for
small stuff to sell for drugs. They kicked in the back door and took
whatever they could find and wrapped everything in pillow cases and sheets
from our bed. They even went through the boxes in the attic. A neighbor
saw them and called police. We got our stuff back; but the thieves were
never caught.

Both robberies were in daylight and this, overall, is not a high-crime area.

TKM

In article ,
Jimw wrote:

A long time ago, SOME of us learned that constantly turning-on
and turning-off a lamp was usually more expensive than leaving
it on. This hasn't changed.

This is bull****.

Sez you.

Turning on and off an incadescent light
does not use more energy

I never said it did. I said it "was usually more expensive than leaving
it on." There IS a difference. Figure it out, if possible.
--

JR

In article ,
Smitty Two wrote:

The next time you are in a plane landing at night,
advise the Captain that you'd like the airport to
turn off their lights to save energy.

I actually don't think he was referring to runway lighting

Agreed. I simply couldn't let pass the irony of "saving energy" while
riding in an aircraft.

just the general amount of light emanating from a city at night.

I know EXACTLY what the OP was referring to. I rode a Lear at night
from Denver to Omaha. We followed I-80 almost closely. One could
EASILY see the communities along the route from their ahem WASTE light.

runway lights at many smaller airports *are* controlled
by the incoming pilot.

....and you can bet they turn them ON when taking-off or landing after
dark.
--

JR

In article
,
wrote:

The real conclusion to be drawn is that someone who wants
to commit a crime will not be stopped by a light, but may
move his crime away from the light.

If this is the level of logical thought our human race
has been reduced to, I want out.

Beam me up, Scotty. There's no intelligent life down here.
--

JR

On Jan 7, 1:21*pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
why have them at all if they're not on when it's dark?

duh

s

"terry" wrote in message

...



Often wondered why street lights on all night. Wasted energy etc. Also
unnecessary pollution where electrcity is generated by coal or other
fossil fuel. Could save some small municipalities some cost?

Apparently a German town/city has decided to turn them off.

However provision is made for residents to call a telephone code that
will switch them on for a timed period in their area. The call can be
made from a home phone or from a mobile/cell phone etc.

So it would appear that a householder could turn them on; as could
someone making a late night delivery, a taxi driver looking for
certain street etc.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Good point.

Do you know what is considered more important by the average American,
the sun or the moon?

Overwhelmingly the response is the moon. It's a no-brainer. The moon
is out at night, when it's dark and we really need the light. The sun
is out when it's already day. Doh.

In article
,
"TKM" wrote:

If light reduces crime, why isn't crime...substantially lower
during the daylight hours?

Uh, I believe it is.
--

JR

In article
,
"TKM" wrote:

"Oren" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:21:46 GMT, "TKM" wrote:

How about this logic? If light reduces crime, why isn't crime, especially
household robbery, substantially lower during the daylight hours?

Some people are home during the day and report crimes, when robbed?

Well, yes. Around my urban area, about half the homes are occupied with
people who work at home, retirees, etc.
My home has been robbed twice in the last 30 years. Once it was a kid who
took a bicycle from an open garage. I reported that right away and he was
caught. The other was more serious and involved 3-4 people looking for
small stuff to sell for drugs. They kicked in the back door and took
whatever they could find and wrapped everything in pillow cases and sheets
from our bed. They even went through the boxes in the attic. A neighbor
saw them and called police. We got our stuff back; but the thieves were
never caught.

Both robberies were in daylight and this, overall, is not a high-crime area.

TKM

Neither incident was a robbery. Both were burglaries.

In article ,
Jim Redelfs wrote:

In article ,
Smitty Two wrote:



runway lights at many smaller airports *are* controlled
by the incoming pilot.

...and you can bet they turn them ON when taking-off or landing after
dark.

Not necessarily, but it's nice to know they're available when needed.
And it's a fine system for energy conservation as well as cost reduction.

The real solution to our energy woes is the same as the real solution to
all of our other woes: stop making babies.

On 1/7/2009 9:25 PM Smitty Two spake thus:

The real solution to our energy woes is the same as the real solution to
all of our other woes: stop making babies.

Yes. But, amazingly, that has become a totally taboo subject. (Anyone
else here remember ZPG and all that stuff?)


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news
that's because it has nothing to do with it.

s


"TKM" wrote in message
...
Oddly enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM

Then why are headlights required in every state even where there is
streetlighting? Should we turn off the headlights instead of the
streetlights and save energy that way?

TKM

Duh, Dopey. Otherwise they would have to hire people to stand there and
turn them off and on when you drove up.

Sheesh.

Steve

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Jimw wrote:


A long time ago, SOME of us learned that constantly turning-on
and turning-off a lamp was usually more expensive than leaving
it on. This hasn't changed.


This is bull****.


Sez you.


Turning on and off an incadescent light
does not use more energy


I never said it did. I said it "was usually more expensive than leaving
it on." There IS a difference. Figure it out, if possible.

I think you must be referring to shortening the life of an inccandescent
bulb by more frequent on-off cyscles and factoring the cost of bulb
replacement into the picture.

I'll agree that was probably true back when electricity was relatively
much cheaper than it is now, but I suspect what you learned back then
might not be true in today's world.
Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

TKM wrote:
"Steve Barker" wrote in message
news
that's because it has nothing to do with it.

s


"TKM" wrote in message
...
Oddly enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM

Then why are headlights required in every state even where there is
streetlighting? Should we turn off the headlights instead of the
streetlights and save energy that way?

TKM

Oh, headlights provide some extra illumination for the driver of the
car, but the primary purpose they serve in areas with streetlights, is
to make other cars able to see them, and realize they are moving.

--
aem sends...

Smitty two and David N, agree totally on ZPG. When I bought my place
here in 1978, it was about 7 miles from town. As often as not, I could
go that 7 miles and not see another car on the road. Now, that same 7
miles is about 30+ minutes of bumper to bumper traffic. They have
recently built a Super Wal Mart about a mile from me, and just past
that, a huge HEB(our largest grocery store chain). Only problem is, it
takes longer to get to them than it used to take going all the way to
town. The treehuggers
can criticize me for not having a Prius--or a bicycle, or not having the
most energy efficient house, but there are people my age with a dozen
grandkids I have a neighbor who is younger than I am-- not sure but
guess early 50's at most-- who is a great- grandmother. When I think
about how much of the planet's resources I myself use, vs others and all
their offspring, I think I've done my part. Larry

In article ,
(lp13-30) wrote:

The treehuggers
can criticize me for not having a Prius--or a bicycle, or not having the
most energy efficient house, but there are people my age with a dozen
grandkids I have a neighbor who is younger than I am-- not sure but
guess early 50's at most-- who is a great- grandmother. When I think
about how much of the planet's resources I myself use, vs others and all
their offspring, I think I've done my part. Larry

Now THAT is an awesome concept! By George! I think you've got it!

Excellent!
--

JR

"TKM" wrote in
:


"terry" wrote in message
.
..
Often wondered why street lights on all night. Wasted energy etc.
Also unnecessary pollution where electrcity is generated by coal or
other fossil fuel. Could save some small municipalities some cost?

Apparently a German town/city has decided to turn them off.

However provision is made for residents to call a telephone code that
will switch them on for a timed period in their area. The call can be
made from a home phone or from a mobile/cell phone etc.

So it would appear that a householder could turn them on; as could
someone making a late night delivery, a taxi driver looking for
certain street etc.


A 2002 DOE report found that outdoor lighting in the U.S. used 58,000+
gigawatt hours/year. 93% of that went for roadway and parking area
lighting.

And, that total doesn't include night sports lighting, on-premise
signs, building floodlighting or landscape/decorative lighting.

There are certainly savings to be had no matter what you think about
light and crime or safety. For example, what about the wasted light
-- that portion that just goes directly up into the sky from poorly
shielded streetlights? That waste has been estimated at 30% of the
total power used by streetlighting by the International Dark-Sky
Association. So, just controlling the wasted light would save $1.7+
billion per year if the electricity costs $.10/kWh. Depending upon
the fuel used to generate the energy, less oil or coal would be used
and less C02 and other environmental pollutants would be emitted.

So, at least reducing the wasted light that does no one any good seems
like a no-brainer plus, as others have said, turning off or dimming
down some streetlights late at night when traffic is light,
especially on freeways, makes sense too.

Streetlights can now be addressed individually via internet technology
and so dimmed down or turned off when not needed.

Some streetlighting is also excessively bright as the newer car
headlights have some 4X the light output of older headlights. Oddly
enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM




I still say and have said for years that the answer to all this energy
stuff is lightning. Stop ****ing around with seaweed fuel and light bulbs
that are dimmer than Bush. I mean there's even some gypsy wagon looking guy
on TV pimping seaweed pills to clean out your asshole. What, is seaweed
like baking soda or something - airplane fuel, colon cleaner, bunyan
annihilator?

There's this paradigm that the answer to oil replacement is to make
alternative fuel out of something else. All Rube Goldberg if you ask me.
Electricity is out there in it's pure form and lots of it. Harness,
control, store and convert to whatever. The Exxon's, Arab's or anybody else
can't buy up the source and charge for access. It's almost everywhere.

58,000+ gigawatt

One good lightning storm is one city in one day. Chicken ****. Shouldn't
really use that one. I'm sure the government is paying big bucks to someone
to try and make chicken **** energy.

On Jan 8, 1:45*am, TimR wrote:
Do you know what is considered more important by the average American,
the sun or the moon?

Overwhelmingly the response is the moon. *It's a no-brainer. *The moon
is out at night, when it's dark and we really need the light. *The sun
is out when it's already day. *Doh.- Hide quoted text -

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not talking about street lights in any particular country, including
America!

BTW this same item was posted on a news group populated by those from
a European country.

Their response were, if anything more factual, giving examples of
communities who do and do not turn off their street lights after
certain times, at night. Along with generally sensible comments and
references and quotes from newspaper articles about street light
situations. Also some technical comments about street lighting
techniques, retrofitting older and/or newer street lighting systems.

There was very little (or nothing) in the way of smart-alecky or nasty
commnets.

An interesting debate however, from both the North American posting
here and that other one.

BTW; a detail. Some communities install street and other lighting that
minimizes light pollution upwards, directing a greater percentage of
the light downwards and onto the areas where it is most effective. One
benefit is to assist astronomical observations.

Thanks anyway to all who posted for throwing some light on the topic.

It's after 1.00 AM here and in this community with some 300-400
municipally financed street lights nothing moves, except maybe for the
one motorist heading home after working late. And the lights will
shine on until around 6.00 AM. Our electrcity is hydro generated so
there is actually no change in pollution/global warming by the
consumption of the electricity as would be the case with burning coal
or other fossil fuel..

In article
,
terry wrote:

this same item was posted on a news group populated
by those from a European country.

I don't suppose you can reveal that newsgroup. sigh

Their response were, if anything more factual, giving examples of
communities who do and do not turn off their street lights after
certain times, at night. Along with generally sensible comments and
references and quotes from newspaper articles about street light
situations. Also some technical comments about street lighting
techniques, retrofitting older and/or newer street lighting systems.

There was very little (or nothing) in the way of smart-alecky or nasty
commnets.

Oh, BAD us. snivel Can't we all just get along?

An interesting debate however, from both the North American
posting here and that other one.

I'd LOVE to read it - the measured, level-headed, polite thread from the
continent widely known for universal tranquility and cooperation.

BTW; a detail.

But no citation. Nice. :\

Some communities install street and other lighting that minimizes
light pollution upwards, directing a greater percentage of the light
downwards and onto the areas where it is most effective.

Oh, please.

The only street, parking lot or other lighting fixture I have *EVER*
seen that is NOT directing its output down is one that is DAMAGED - or
directed at another, Earthbound item, i.e. flag, sign, etc.

One benefit is to assist astronomical observations.

The folks at Mount Palomar are grateful, I'm sure.

Regardless, the best astronomical observatory has been orbiting our
planet for 18 years. Unfettered by earthly light "pollution" gag and
atmospheric distortion (bring back CFCs for the benefit of ground-based
observersg), Hubble has peered further and deeper into the cosmos,
mostly for the benefit of countless computer displays of cool wallpapers
and slideshows.

It's after 1.00 AM here and in this community with some 300-400
municipally financed street lights nothing moves

....and those lights are PRECISELY WHY nothing moves.

It must be all the lattes, bean sprouts, tofu and other soy "food" that
have caused so many formerly, presumably intelligent folks to buy into
ALL the "green" hype. When it comes simply to "energy consumption",
it's all bad. There is no consideration given to cause and effect,
collateral benefit vs detriment and historical evidence of value.

Our electrcity is hydro generated so there is actually no change in
pollution/global warming by the consumption of the electricity

Perhaps, but what about the poor, oppressed FISH? Has the dam operator
installed "ladders" yet? Have they yet installed discharge water
coolers so that the fish don't gather near the outlet because they
prefer the warmth? What about the vaunted Snail Darter?

as would be the case with burning coal or other fossil fuel..

My local power utility recently had the nerve to reveal they were
considering building another nuke. Progress is being made, albeit
slowly, no thanks to the late operators (experimenters) of Chernobyl and
Hanoi Jane's alarmist movie.

Not to worry, though: There will always be SOMETHING to keep
environmentalist extremists mad and militant. Come to think of it, if
they REALLY wished to curb CO2 emission, they'd shut up. Fat chance.
Fortunately, there are few enough of them to make much difference in
that regard.
--

JR

On Jan 9, 12:45*am, Red Green wrote:
..
One good lightning storm is one city in one day. Chicken ****. Shouldn't
really use that one. I'm sure the government is paying big bucks to someone
to try and make chicken **** energy.- Hide quoted text -

Good point Red Green.
Reminds one of a TV item about making methane gas to run farm machnery
from animal (and human) waste. Which in some places is used to make
sufficient gas for some limited cooking.
And some humans burn dried animal dung for cooking food.
But this was on a bigger scale on a farm.
A chemistry professor from a local university who was involved was
asked "Which type of manure/waste is best for making the gas?".
His answer was hardly 'scientific'!
"Oh", he said. "Don't really know. But the worse it stinks the more
gas it seems to make". :-)
..

On Jan 8, 8:49*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
It's supposed to be dark at night. That's how the planet was made.

Just before the recent holiday period some acquaintances who live in a
partly developed area, the nearest house is some 200+ feet away across
the street and slightly shielded by trees, had their house burgled.
It occurred in late afternoon, it gets dark here around 4.0 PM at this
time of year.
The street lights would have been coming on around that time of day in
mid-late December.
One of the first things the thief or thieves did was turn on all the
lights in the house and the driveway outside. Thus deceiving anyone
who did happen to notice that the house was occupied.
The alarm system operated and the homeowner was called by the alarm
system company at work. But by the time that call was received and the
owner arrived home to check they were long gone. All the lights in the
house were still on!

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article
,
terry wrote:

this same item was posted on a news group populated
by those from a European country.

I don't suppose you can reveal that newsgroup. sigh

I've been watching the threads on both groups. Decide for yourself; uk.d-i-y

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"TKM" wrote in
:


"terry" wrote in message
.
..
Often wondered why street lights on all night. Wasted energy etc.
Also unnecessary pollution where electrcity is generated by coal or
other fossil fuel. Could save some small municipalities some cost?

Apparently a German town/city has decided to turn them off.

However provision is made for residents to call a telephone code that
will switch them on for a timed period in their area. The call can be
made from a home phone or from a mobile/cell phone etc.

So it would appear that a householder could turn them on; as could
someone making a late night delivery, a taxi driver looking for
certain street etc.


A 2002 DOE report found that outdoor lighting in the U.S. used 58,000+
gigawatt hours/year. 93% of that went for roadway and parking area
lighting.

And, that total doesn't include night sports lighting, on-premise
signs, building floodlighting or landscape/decorative lighting.

There are certainly savings to be had no matter what you think about
light and crime or safety. For example, what about the wasted light
-- that portion that just goes directly up into the sky from poorly
shielded streetlights? That waste has been estimated at 30% of the
total power used by streetlighting by the International Dark-Sky
Association. So, just controlling the wasted light would save $1.7+
billion per year if the electricity costs $.10/kWh. Depending upon
the fuel used to generate the energy, less oil or coal would be used
and less C02 and other environmental pollutants would be emitted.

So, at least reducing the wasted light that does no one any good seems
like a no-brainer plus, as others have said, turning off or dimming
down some streetlights late at night when traffic is light,
especially on freeways, makes sense too.

Streetlights can now be addressed individually via internet technology
and so dimmed down or turned off when not needed.

Some streetlighting is also excessively bright as the newer car
headlights have some 4X the light output of older headlights. Oddly
enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM




I still say and have said for years that the answer to all this energy
stuff is lightning. Stop ****ing around with seaweed fuel and light bulbs
that are dimmer than Bush. I mean there's even some gypsy wagon looking
guy
on TV pimping seaweed pills to clean out your asshole. What, is seaweed
like baking soda or something - airplane fuel, colon cleaner, bunyan
annihilator?

There's this paradigm that the answer to oil replacement is to make
alternative fuel out of something else. All Rube Goldberg if you ask me.
Electricity is out there in it's pure form and lots of it. Harness,
control, store and convert to whatever. The Exxon's, Arab's or anybody
else
can't buy up the source and charge for access. It's almost everywhere.

58,000+ gigawatt

One good lightning storm is one city in one day. Chicken ****. Shouldn't
really use that one. I'm sure the government is paying big bucks to
someone
to try and make chicken **** energy.

Go for it. Next lightning storm go stand in Possum Lake holding a nice long
metal boat mast. Have someone --- oh maybe 500 feet away -- ready with a
camera to snap the action. You might make a great battery. If not, you can
sell the picture.

TKM

"terry" wrote in message
...
On Jan 8, 8:49 am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
It's supposed to be dark at night. That's how the planet was made.

Just before the recent holiday period some acquaintances who live in a
partly developed area, the nearest house is some 200+ feet away across
the street and slightly shielded by trees, had their house burgled.
It occurred in late afternoon, it gets dark here around 4.0 PM at this
time of year.
The street lights would have been coming on around that time of day in
mid-late December.
One of the first things the thief or thieves did was turn on all the
lights in the house and the driveway outside. Thus deceiving anyone
who did happen to notice that the house was occupied.
The alarm system operated and the homeowner was called by the alarm
system company at work. But by the time that call was received and the
owner arrived home to check they were long gone. All the lights in the
house were still on!

So, from all the stories and opinios that we've heard about in this thread,
sometimes light helps prevent robberies and burglaries and sometimes it
doesn't. And, sometimes, it might move crime around. But what light seems
to do for sure is to make people feel safer whether they are or not.

TKM

"Jim Redelfs" wrote in message
...
In article
,
terry wrote:

this same item was posted on a news group populated
by those from a European country.

I don't suppose you can reveal that newsgroup. sigh

Their response were, if anything more factual, giving examples of
communities who do and do not turn off their street lights after
certain times, at night. Along with generally sensible comments and
references and quotes from newspaper articles about street light
situations. Also some technical comments about street lighting
techniques, retrofitting older and/or newer street lighting systems.

There was very little (or nothing) in the way of smart-alecky or nasty
commnets.

Oh, BAD us. snivel Can't we all just get along?

An interesting debate however, from both the North American
posting here and that other one.

I'd LOVE to read it - the measured, level-headed, polite thread from the
continent widely known for universal tranquility and cooperation.

BTW; a detail.

But no citation. Nice. :\

Some communities install street and other lighting that minimizes
light pollution upwards, directing a greater percentage of the light
downwards and onto the areas where it is most effective.

Oh, please.

The only street, parking lot or other lighting fixture I have *EVER*
seen that is NOT directing its output down is one that is DAMAGED - or
directed at another, Earthbound item, i.e. flag, sign, etc.

One benefit is to assist astronomical observations.

The folks at Mount Palomar are grateful, I'm sure.

Snip

Indeed they are grateful as are the astronomers in Tucson, Hilo, San Jose
and numerous other places. The lighting ordinances in those areas have kept
the light pollution under control so the multi-million dollars invested in
observatories, staff salaries and benefilts to the local economies are still
paying off. Other places, where wasted light makes it impossible for
astronomers to see the sky, they've packed up their telescopes and moved to
darker areas in Chile or Argentina.

So, let's see if I've got this right. You are saying that we should
continue to pay taxes to waste 30% of the light and energy from our public
lighting systems (streets and parking areas) lighting up the underside of
birds and airplanes so observatory investment goes off shore and so we get
to enjoy glaring and excessive lighting.

TKM

In article ,
"Clot" wrote:

I don't suppose you can reveal that newsgroup. sigh

I've been watching the threads on both groups.
Decide for yourself; uk.d-i-y

I am humbled and apologize for my presumptuous attitude.

Thank-you for the reference. I am downloading 99999 articles as I
type. It must be a busy newsgroup. Thanks, again.
--

JR

In article ,
"TKM" wrote:

So, let's see if I've got this right. You are saying that we should
continue to pay taxes to waste 30% of the light and energy from our public
lighting systems (streets and parking areas) lighting up the underside of
birds and airplanes so observatory investment goes off shore and so we get
to enjoy glaring and excessive lighting.

If that is your interpretation of my words, more words are unlikely to
change your mind. I am not prepared to challenge your claim of "30%" or
even your definition of "waste". We obviously disagree.

I object mostly to the simplistic views of those that impugn that which
has served us well for ages yet, only comparatively recently, declare
that it is "bad" or "wasted" or now constitutes "pollution".

Perhaps it because I am probably older than most of the vocal
environmentalists. I remember how things were and how far we have come.
Most frustrating is the knowledge that, no matter how far we have come
or how much we do currently in the realm of environmental protection and
conservation, it isn't enough - and it will never be enough.

IOW, they would bitch if they were hung with a NEW rope.
--

JR

"TKM" wrote in
news

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
"TKM" wrote in
:


"terry" wrote in message

m. ..
Often wondered why street lights on all night. Wasted energy etc.
Also unnecessary pollution where electrcity is generated by coal or
other fossil fuel. Could save some small municipalities some cost?

Apparently a German town/city has decided to turn them off.

However provision is made for residents to call a telephone code
that will switch them on for a timed period in their area. The call
can be made from a home phone or from a mobile/cell phone etc.

So it would appear that a householder could turn them on; as could
someone making a late night delivery, a taxi driver looking for
certain street etc.


A 2002 DOE report found that outdoor lighting in the U.S. used
58,000+ gigawatt hours/year. 93% of that went for roadway and
parking area lighting.

And, that total doesn't include night sports lighting, on-premise
signs, building floodlighting or landscape/decorative lighting.

There are certainly savings to be had no matter what you think about
light and crime or safety. For example, what about the wasted light
-- that portion that just goes directly up into the sky from poorly
shielded streetlights? That waste has been estimated at 30% of the
total power used by streetlighting by the International Dark-Sky
Association. So, just controlling the wasted light would save
$1.7+ billion per year if the electricity costs $.10/kWh. Depending
upon the fuel used to generate the energy, less oil or coal would be
used and less C02 and other environmental pollutants would be
emitted.

So, at least reducing the wasted light that does no one any good
seems like a no-brainer plus, as others have said, turning off or
dimming down some streetlights late at night when traffic is light,
especially on freeways, makes sense too.

Streetlights can now be addressed individually via internet
technology and so dimmed down or turned off when not needed.

Some streetlighting is also excessively bright as the newer car
headlights have some 4X the light output of older headlights. Oddly
enough, headlighting doesn't seem to have been taken into account in
the lighting designs for most traffic streets and highways.

TKM




I still say and have said for years that the answer to all this
energy stuff is lightning. Stop ****ing around with seaweed fuel and
light bulbs that are dimmer than Bush. I mean there's even some gypsy
wagon looking guy
on TV pimping seaweed pills to clean out your asshole. What, is
seaweed like baking soda or something - airplane fuel, colon cleaner,
bunyan annihilator?

There's this paradigm that the answer to oil replacement is to make
alternative fuel out of something else. All Rube Goldberg if you ask
me. Electricity is out there in it's pure form and lots of it.
Harness, control, store and convert to whatever. The Exxon's, Arab's
or anybody else
can't buy up the source and charge for access. It's almost
everywhere.

58,000+ gigawatt

One good lightning storm is one city in one day. Chicken ****.
Shouldn't really use that one. I'm sure the government is paying big
bucks to someone
to try and make chicken **** energy.

Go for it. Next lightning storm go stand in Possum Lake holding a
nice long metal boat mast. Have someone --- oh maybe 500 feet away --
ready with a camera to snap the action. You might make a great
battery. If not, you can sell the picture.

TKM



With hair pointed vertically and skin toasted beyond, I'll probably look
like Buckwheat.


TKM: "Well Red, how'd it work?
Red: "OTay!"

Oren wrote in news:tf7am4p79abubf2al5c96iusupapufvo8o@
4ax.com:

On Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:25:58 -0800 (PST), terry
wrote:

Often wondered why street lights on all night.

Ever been into an inner city area? Miami has an area called the
Pork-N-Beans projects, located about Liberty City. Adjacent to Little
Havana. The lights have an orange color, so people can see better into
the night.

Once in Liberty City I experienced a few locals that had bones pierced
through their noses. That was in daylight, can you imagine what the
night looks like there?




that had bones pierced
through their noses. That was in daylight, can you imagine what the
night looks like there?

Maybe National Geographic can cut costs by doing a shoot on cannibals
from there and pawning it off as some other country.

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
"Clot" wrote:

I don't suppose you can reveal that newsgroup. sigh

I've been watching the threads on both groups.
Decide for yourself; uk.d-i-y

I am humbled and apologize for my presumptuous attitude.

Thank-you for the reference. I am downloading 99999 articles as I
type. It must be a busy newsgroup. Thanks, again.

No problem, you are welcome. The traffic is comparable to this group.
Strangely, whilst I can see your reply, my original message has not appeared
for me!

When you fly in and see all those parking lots lit up

The light illumniating the lot is doing its job

Waste light leaks and goes directly to the sky illuminating nothing.

Just thought I would point this out

wrote:
When you fly in and see all those parking lots lit up

The light illumniating the lot is doing its job

Waste light leaks and goes directly to the sky illuminating nothing.

Just thought I would point this out



why not use the same type camera system that changes traffic
signals when there are cars around. let the cameras turn
on the street lights where there is activity, and off after
an hour of no activity. they have a long view from pole top.

most of our local lots now use 70 watt sodium bulbs, each
easily replaced at least ten 100 watt incandescent bulbs.
lots that were on timers until 2am switching 6000 watts
now use photocells to switch 420 watts dusk to dawn.

dallas made a substantial power cut just by replacing all
the traffic signal bulbs with snap in led panels. and cut
maintenance staff who's only job was continually replacing
burned out signal bulbs. some intersection controllers and
signals are now solar powered. all of the school zones are
solar powered, including the radio links that eliminated the
timing sync when they lost power. (no more school
zone flashing at 2am)

-- larry / dallas

On Jan 10, 5:17�pm, larry wrote:
wrote:
When you fly in and see all those parking lots lit up

The light illumniating the lot is doing its job

Waste light leaks and goes directly to the sky illuminating nothing.

Just thought I would point this out

why not use the same type camera system that changes traffic
� signals when there are cars around. �let the cameras turn
on the street lights where there is activity, and off after
an hour of no activity. �they have a long view from pole top.

most of our local lots now use 70 watt sodium bulbs, each
easily replaced at least ten 100 watt incandescent bulbs.
� lots that were on timers until 2am switching 6000 watts
now use photocells to switch 420 watts dusk to dawn.

dallas made a substantial power cut just by replacing all
the traffic signal bulbs with snap in led panels. �and cut
maintenance staff who's only job was continually replacing
burned out signal bulbs. �some intersection controllers and
signals are now solar powered. �all of the school zones are
solar powered, including the radio links that eliminated the
� � � �timing sync when they lost power. (no more school
zone flashing at 2am)

-- larry / dallas

the high efficeny sodium and other lamps take a few minutes to come to
full briteness.

by the time the sensor tripped light on vehicle would of passed.

plus theres liability issues if lamps fail for some reason....

wrote:
On Jan 10, 5:17?pm, larry wrote:
wrote:
When you fly in and see all those parking lots lit up

The light illumniating the lot is doing its job

Waste light leaks and goes directly to the sky illuminating nothing.

Just thought I would point this out

why not use the same type camera system that changes traffic
? signals when there are cars around. ?let the cameras turn
on the street lights where there is activity, and off after
an hour of no activity. ?they have a long view from pole top.

most of our local lots now use 70 watt sodium bulbs, each
easily replaced at least ten 100 watt incandescent bulbs.
? lots that were on timers until 2am switching 6000 watts
now use photocells to switch 420 watts dusk to dawn.

dallas made a substantial power cut just by replacing all
the traffic signal bulbs with snap in led panels. ?and cut
maintenance staff who's only job was continually replacing
burned out signal bulbs. ?some intersection controllers and
signals are now solar powered. ?all of the school zones are
solar powered, including the radio links that eliminated the
? ? ? ?timing sync when they lost power. (no more school
zone flashing at 2am)

-- larry / dallas

the high efficeny sodium and other lamps take a few minutes to come to
full briteness.

by the time the sensor tripped light on vehicle would of passed.


Yeah, but those goddamn red-light camera flash bulbs can come on to full
brightness in 0.001 seconds!

On Fri, 09 Jan 2009 22:32:23 -0600, Red Green
wrote:

that had bones pierced
through their noses. That was in daylight, can you imagine what the
night looks like there?

Maybe National Geographic can cut costs by doing a shoot on cannibals
from there and pawning it off as some other country.

Yes and still cover the Voodoo Festival on Miami Beach, the plight of
Cubans 1960-1980. And Haitians floating ashore, or cover an episode of
the Last American Leaving Miami (please bring the flag).