On Dec 31 2008, 10:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. *I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. *Better,
smoother finishes. *Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. *etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.

It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".

MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.

It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!

That is not true.

Cheri

Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 06:44:40 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Dec 31 2008, 10:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. *I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. *Better,
smoother finishes. *Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. *etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.

It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".

MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.

It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!

That is not true.

Cheri

Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

I did not make any "claim". I stated some facts. Cheri didn't like the
truth, so she started making things up.

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.

On 1/1/2009 5:22 AM Robert spake thus:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:14:28 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/31/2008 9:17 AM Robert spake thus:

They [the Amish] dont connect to the power grid, but they are very
ingenious and do use electricity. As far as practicallity, while it
does all work, and works well, the guy spends more per month on
gasoline than it would cost to have electricity from the electric
company, or at least he was when gasoline was around $4 a gallon.

Now this came guy is working on a generator system for his horse drawn
buggy. By law they are required to have headlights and taillights on
public roads. Their batteries get weak on long trips, so he's
designing a generator that is powered from the wheels to recharge the
battery. He also has a CB radio in his buggy.

What an odd set of strictures these people saddle themselves with: it's
OK to use a gasoline engine to power a diary operation (though not
inside lights), but not OK to use that same engine to power their
buggies. WTF??!?

Yet another illustration of how useless and ridiculous religion is.

In some ways I agree with you, but because I am good friends with
them, and they are nice people, I have asked them outright why they do
some of these things.

As far as electricity, they are not allowed to be connected to the
grid. They are meant to survive without being connected to the
outside world. Well, I explained to them that using gasoline connects
them to the outside world because they cant make their own. The
answer I got was that it's just the rules, and if they could not get
gas, they would make a wood powered steam engine.

[snip]

I'm sure that they are "nice people", who furthermore carry on
traditions of making useful and beautiful things in the old ways.

But look at the Shakers, who had many of the same practices (some even
more extreme), and gave us a rich repertoire of furniture and furnishing
designs, but who eventually self-extinguished because of their meshuggah
ideas about sexuality, procreation, etc. No new Shakers = extinction. I
guess that either never occurred to them, or if it did they decided it
didn't matter.


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

On 1/1/2009 5:22 AM Robert spake thus:

They do not use the local police for any internal problems (with other
amish), but will contact the police if non amish people try to harm
them.

Which, as all of us who have seen the movie "Witness" know, they refer
to as "English" (for "foreigners").


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:37:15 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 1/1/2009 5:22 AM Robert spake thus:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:14:28 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/31/2008 9:17 AM Robert spake thus:

They [the Amish] dont connect to the power grid, but they are very
ingenious and do use electricity. As far as practicallity, while it
does all work, and works well, the guy spends more per month on
gasoline than it would cost to have electricity from the electric
company, or at least he was when gasoline was around $4 a gallon.

Now this came guy is working on a generator system for his horse drawn
buggy. By law they are required to have headlights and taillights on
public roads. Their batteries get weak on long trips, so he's
designing a generator that is powered from the wheels to recharge the
battery. He also has a CB radio in his buggy.

What an odd set of strictures these people saddle themselves with: it's
OK to use a gasoline engine to power a diary operation (though not
inside lights), but not OK to use that same engine to power their
buggies. WTF??!?

Yet another illustration of how useless and ridiculous religion is.

In some ways I agree with you, but because I am good friends with
them, and they are nice people, I have asked them outright why they do
some of these things.

As far as electricity, they are not allowed to be connected to the
grid. They are meant to survive without being connected to the
outside world. Well, I explained to them that using gasoline connects
them to the outside world because they cant make their own. The
answer I got was that it's just the rules, and if they could not get
gas, they would make a wood powered steam engine.

[snip]

I'm sure that they are "nice people", who furthermore carry on
traditions of making useful and beautiful things in the old ways.

But look at the Shakers, who had many of the same practices (some even
more extreme), and gave us a rich repertoire of furniture and furnishing
designs, but who eventually self-extinguished because of their meshuggah
ideas about sexuality, procreation, etc. No new Shakers = extinction. I
guess that either never occurred to them, or if it did they decided it
didn't matter.


I'm dont know much about the Shakers, but I will say that the Amish do
their share of reproducing, where most families have at least 5 kids,
and often more. I heard of one family that had 17 kids. The problem
is there is a lot of inbreeding, and they have a higher percentage of
birth defects than average.

Yes, they do refer to anyone who is not Amish as English. This is in
reference to our English language. I'm not sure what they would call
someone that speaks Spanish or French, but I'd guess they still call
them English. The thing is that they speak english most of the time
themselves, but when a bunch of Amish guys get together, then they
speak their own language, which is a form of German, but not the
common German language.

I once went over to one of their farms and they were having an Amish
business meeting out in the barn. One of the guys was going to help
me do something, and I had to wait until they finished their meeting.
Ten minutes later, I was standing there and did not understand a
single word of what they were saying, and I felt pretty uncomfortable.
I excused myself and told them I was going to go out and pet their
horses. The guy who was supposed to help me, said (in English), We'll
be done in about a half hour or so, there's a bag of horse treats in
the small shed if you want to treat them....... Then they went back
to speaking their own language and I went out by the horses.
(I understood the horses better, and the horses enjoyed the treats)

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:22:39 -0600, Robert
wrote:

On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 12:14:28 -0800, David Nebenzahl
wrote:

On 12/31/2008 9:17 AM Robert spake thus:

They [the Amish] dont connect to the power grid, but they are very
ingenious and do use electricity. As far as practicallity, while it
does all work, and works well, the guy spends more per month on
gasoline than it would cost to have electricity from the electric
company, or at least he was when gasoline was around $4 a gallon.

Now this came guy is working on a generator system for his horse drawn
buggy. By law they are required to have headlights and taillights on
public roads. Their batteries get weak on long trips, so he's
designing a generator that is powered from the wheels to recharge the
battery. He also has a CB radio in his buggy.

What an odd set of strictures these people saddle themselves with: it's
OK to use a gasoline engine to power a diary operation (though not
inside lights), but not OK to use that same engine to power their
buggies. WTF??!?

Yet another illustration of how useless and ridiculous religion is.

In some ways I agree with you, but because I am good friends with
them, and they are nice people, I have asked them outright why they do
some of these things.

As far as electricity, they are not allowed to be connected to the
grid. They are meant to survive without being connected to the
outside world. Well, I explained to them that using gasoline connects
them to the outside world because they cant make their own. The
answer I got was that it's just the rules, and if they could not get
gas, they would make a wood powered steam engine.

They CAN use more modern stuff for business, but NOT for personal use.

Here's some more facts that are bizarre.

They can drive a tractor, but not a car or truck. They can not OWN
the tractor, except for a few select members, who are then made to do
all the tractor work, snow plowing, etc for the whole community.

They can have a phone, as long as it's outside the home (usually in a
small 4 foot square shack), but Amish businesses can have it in their
barn or work building with special permission.

If they rent a house and it has electricity, they can use it, but it
must be used minimally.

To get water out of their well, they can use either a windmill, or a
gas powered air compressor, which pumps air into a 500 or 1000 gallon
propane tank. That air pushes water up the well pipes, and lasts for
hours with the large air tank.

When they build a new house, they use common lumberyard materials
including foam and fiberglass insulation. They install wiring cables
in most of the houses, for resale value, but the boxes are not
installed. There is a map showing the location of the wires.

They do use banks and get loans, and I know several of them went to
deep in debt and had to foreclose their farm.

They do not use the local police for any internal problems (with other
amish), but will contact the police if non amish people try to harm
them. However they generally avoid courts.

They do use doctors and hospitals for themselves, but for their
animals they have their own Amish vet, who is not a college educated
or licensed vet.

They can use a gas powered rotatiller for theier lawn or pasture, but
not for their food garden. For some reason it will affect their food
(a religion thing). The garden must be tilled by human or animal
power.

They can ride in anyone's car, but can not own a car or drive one.

Yes, a lot of this dont make much sense and I agree......
Every community has a little different rules too. The ones in my area
are much less strict than soem others. Yet some others (but few)
allow driving cars, but not ownership.








You need to understand the history. The Amish are a "brotherhood"
Along with being a "separate people",
The brotherhood part is fundamental to understanding the lifestyle..
Particularly historically.

They were, historically, a persecuted and poor people. Being
Anabaptists they were not members of the state church in Gemany,
Switzerland, Alcase, aor wherever they lived, so were also not
citizens, and could not own properety.
When they came to America they were able to aquire and own property.
AS a "brotherhood" they worked together, and untill all members were
in a position to afford a particular "luxury", no-one had it. This is
why one group of Amish, or Mennonte congregations will have different
"rules" than others.
Communal ownership and use of certain equipment follows that pattern.
One of the better off will have and be the caretaker of, say, a
tractor and snowblower - and will look after the needs of the
"brotherhood" as concerning that peice of equipment.

Granted, it has gone beyond the basic brotherhood issue in many cases,
with the rules sometimes seamingly existing for no other reason than
that they "always have".
The "quiet in the land", they are not involved in politics or
government, and tend to look after their own in regards to matters of
insurance, and look after their own internal squabbles without
intervention from outside powers like the law and the courts.

Being non-resistant pacifists, even when dealing with the "english" -
or thse outside their group, the courts are seldom called upon.

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 06:44:40 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Dec 31 2008, 10:25Â*am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. Â*I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Â*Better,
smoother finishes. Â*Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. Â*etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.

It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".

MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.

It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!

That is not true.

Cheri

Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K
Absolutely and totally NOT true.
Farthest from the tennants of their religion.
They are non-resistant pacifists who do not believe in violence, but
also don't put up with much nonsence and believe that to spare the rod
is to spoil the child onlt to the extent that when correction is
required, it is not with-held.
"apply the boot of knowlege to the seat of understanding" as my
grand-dad was sometimes heard to say.

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:51:00 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.


Absolutely false.

wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K
Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.

I see you conveniently ducked what was asked of you. You made (and keep
on making) the bizarre assertions you are making without any supporting
evidence. Other than continuing to repeat yourself what evidence can you
offer?

On Jan 1, 6:33�pm, George wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
om...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. �I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. �Better,
smoother finishes. �Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. �etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -
You are the one making the claim, back it up. �She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K
Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.

I see you conveniently ducked what was asked of you. You made (and keep
on making) the bizarre assertions you are making without any supporting
evidence. Other than continuing to repeat yourself what evidence can you
offer?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

well amish do have antiquated ideas of how women should be treated,
and inbreeding of such a small society is a problem. recently some
inspectors showed up at a amish puppy mill, so the amish guy killed
500 defenseless dogs.

such behavior is well theres no excuse. he didnt want to meet the
minimum rules.

pennsylvania is passing a law to prevent this from ever happening
again

amish are unnecessarily attacked. not long ago a amish school was
vandalized smashing some irreplaceable hand operated equiptement

On Dec 31 2008, 3:37*pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
*DerbyDad03 wrote:
Having grown up (physically) in NYC, and having many, many friends and
relatives that lived in apartment buildings, I can truthfully say that
I have never heard of a "Sabbath Switch". I also don't ever recall
having an elevator stop on every floor, every Saturday.

Maybe there were never any Jews in these buildings? I think not.

Many cooking stoves also have a Sabbath mode. It is OK to adjust the
temperature, but not to start the fire.

Now this I have heard off, although it was never called Sabbath mode
when I was growing up.

I knew of families that would turn on the oven to a very low temp
before sundown on Friday night so they could use the oven on Saturday.
Same went for keeping a pot of water simmering on the stovetop so they
could use a flame. I knew of other habits, such as night lights in
dark basements, etc.

However, I have never of a Sabbath mode for elevators in high-rises.
Granted, I could be wrong, I just never heard of it in NYC.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 23:00:28 -0800, z wrote:

On Dec 30, 3:59*pm, RLM wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:44:59 -0800, bigjimpack wrote:
They dopuppy mills too

The big four legged animals are horses.



On Dec 30, 1:05*pm, ransley wrote:
On Dec 30, 9:21*am, "HeyBub" wrote:

An advert features an electric space heater made by hard-working Amish.

"But despite what the ad implies, these are not made by the Amish: They're
made in China. If you read the ad carefully, you realize that only the wood
mantle is made by Amish craftsmen. Amish have nothing to do with the
fireplace itself. "

http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/loc...urmoney/story/...

There must be alot of Amish electrician jokes.

Tell me all of them you know except the one about how many it takes to
screw in a light bulb.

Did you hear about the Amish Flu?
You get a little hoarse, and also a little buggy.

Q: What goes clip-clop clip-clop clip-clop bang clip-clop clip-clop
clip-clop?
A: An Amish driveby shooting.

Good ones! got to admit I've not heard many and traveled and worked in
north east Ohio in some Amish Villages years ago.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 17:55:28 -0500, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

RLM wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 12:44:59 -0800, bigjimpack wrote:


They dopuppy mills too


The big four legged animals are horses.

On Dec 30, 1:05 pm, ransley wrote:

On Dec 30, 9:21 am, "HeyBub" wrote:


An advert features an electric space heater made by hard-working Amish.

"But despite what the ad implies, these are not made by the Amish: They're
made in China. If you read the ad carefully, you realize that only the wood
mantle is made by Amish craftsmen. Amish have nothing to do with the
fireplace itself. "

http://www.wcpo.com/content/news/loc...urmoney/story/...

There must be alot of Amish electrician jokes.


Tell me all of them you know except the one about how many it takes to
screw in a light bulb.



You mean THIS one? TWO.

http://home.comcast.net/~jwisnia18/temp/lightbulb.gif

Jeff

__________m___~¿ó___m_________________m___^¿^___m_ _________

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:28:28 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:51:00 -0500, wrote:

On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:

Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.


Absolutely false.

Absolutely true.

On Jan 1, 11:51*am, wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:





Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. *I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. *Better,
smoother finishes. *Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. *etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. *She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You seem to have a real hangup about kids being beaten. Problem?

Harry K

On Jan 1, 11:49*am, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 06:44:40 -0800 (PST), Harry K





wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25*am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. *I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. *Better,
smoother finishes. *Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. *etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.

It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".

MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.

It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!

That is not true.

Cheri

Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. *She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

I did not make any "claim". I stated some facts. Cheri didn't like the
truth, so she started making things up.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are looking more and more like an idiot. That _is_ a "claim".

Harry K

On Dec 31 2008, 11:58�am, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. �I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. �Better,
smoother finishes. �Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. �etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.

It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".

MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.

It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I would need substantiation to believe wife-beating is a practice of
the Amish.

Do you have an unbiased source for this?

On Dec 31 2008, 4:02�pm, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:05:58 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:03:43 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:52:40 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German
ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to
how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?

Not that I'm aware, but I haven't heard that of the Amish either.

It doesn't get much press because portraying them as rustic romantics
is far more profitable for Hotels, bus tours, and the many other
businesses that benifit from tourism in Pennsyvania.

Baloney! It doesn't get much press because it doesn't happen that much..

Cheri

So you are saying you are aware that it happens?

Of course it happens, just as it's happened around the world since time
began, but it's not the norm, anymore than it's the norm for men to be
wife/child beaters just because some of them are.

Cheri

It's a religious cult, and this behavior is part of their belief
system. Women and children are property, and it is considered a good
thing to beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Cite?

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:16:12 -0800 (PST), Harry K
wrote:

On Jan 1, 11:51*am, wrote:
On Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:19 -0500, George
wrote:





Harry K wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 10:25 am, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:04:28 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
m...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 22:44:26 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:48:43 -0500, wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.
They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.
What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. *I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. *Better,
smoother finishes. *Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. *etc. etc. etc.
Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...
nate
Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?
Likely as many germans as Amish.
It is not, regardless what the media may report, the "norm".
MOST are very loving husbands and fathers.
It's a religious cult, and these are part of their belief system.
Women and children are property, and it is considered a good thing to
beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!
That is not true.
Cheri
Cite?- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are the one making the claim, back it up. *She does not have to as
that wouild be trying to prove a negative.

Harry K

Exactly right, you beat me to it.

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry K.
It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You seem to have a real hangup about kids being beaten. Problem?

Harry K

You don't have a problem with men beating women and children?

On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:29 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Dec 31 2008, 4:02?pm, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:05:58 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:





wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:03:43 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:52:40 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German
ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to
how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?

Not that I'm aware, but I haven't heard that of the Amish either.

It doesn't get much press because portraying them as rustic romantics
is far more profitable for Hotels, bus tours, and the many other
businesses that benifit from tourism in Pennsyvania.

Baloney! It doesn't get much press because it doesn't happen that much.

Cheri

So you are saying you are aware that it happens?

Of course it happens, just as it's happened around the world since time
began, but it's not the norm, anymore than it's the norm for men to be
wife/child beaters just because some of them are.

Cheri

It's a religious cult, and this behavior is part of their belief
system. Women and children are property, and it is considered a good
thing to beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Cite?



http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/0...wing-up-amish/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...-amish-part-1/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...-amish-part-2/

You might also want to do a little googling on Amsih Animal cruelty.

The bottom line is that the whole sales pitch that romanticizes the
Amish as some sort of quaint and wonderful throwback to simpler and
more "genuine" times is fabricated. They just have better PR people
than the Hells Angels and the Taliban. The states where they live make
a LOT of money off that false image, so they aren't about to do
anything to hurt business. You won't find a lot of information because
they work very hard to supress it. They are a little harder to
infiltrate than the KKK, and look how long it took to take THAT
organization mostly apart.

Nate Nagel wrote:
dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
...
... They are good at woodwork.

They're just people with pretty much the general range of aptitudes of
any other group...that includes there are good eggs and "not so much"
although the preponderance tends to be a little lower.

What they do seem to have is a sense of quality and durability that
doesn't seem to be common in general consumer goods. I'm not saying
that EVERY Amish-made product is superior to the one you buy in a
department store, but the furniture I've seen is definitely superior -
all solid woods, none of that veneer over chipboard crap. Better,
smoother finishes. Paneled doors are really paneled doors, not a glued
up panel routed to look like one. etc. etc. etc.

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to how
we look at physical goods...

nate


I'll second that on the furniture at least. There is a boutique
furniture store a few blocks from here that I go into maybe once a year,
just to drool, that specializes in Amish-produced goods. Absurdly
expensive, but most of it would easily last a century or more, with
reasonable care. I have maybe 30 years left at best, and no heirs, so
not much point in my paying the super-high prices. But if I was to hit
the lotto or something, and build my dream house, that is definitely
where I would go to furnish the place.

You can like a poem or a song, without liking the person that wrote it.
I agree that the convoluted strictures the Amish follow are silly, but
they sure know how to put pieces of wood together, and I do respect that.

--
aem sends...

DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 3:37 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Having grown up (physically) in NYC, and having many, many friends
and relatives that lived in apartment buildings, I can truthfully
say that I have never heard of a "Sabbath Switch". I also don't
ever recall having an elevator stop on every floor, every Saturday.

Maybe there were never any Jews in these buildings? I think not.

Many cooking stoves also have a Sabbath mode. It is OK to adjust the
temperature, but not to start the fire.

Now this I have heard off, although it was never called Sabbath mode
when I was growing up.

I knew of families that would turn on the oven to a very low temp
before sundown on Friday night so they could use the oven on Saturday.
Same went for keeping a pot of water simmering on the stovetop so they
could use a flame. I knew of other habits, such as night lights in
dark basements, etc.

However, I have never of a Sabbath mode for elevators in high-rises.
Granted, I could be wrong, I just never heard of it in NYC.


A teaching moment...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_elevator

The operative rule is that an observant Jew is permitted to take advantage
of a process that began before the Sabbath. Heck, all one's food was GROWING
on some prior Sabbath!

Some people think it's a CHORE to pre-tear the toilet paper, but not really.
The paper's got to be torn eventually...

wrote:
..

If you were Amish, your father would have beat you instead of Harry
K. It's god's will. If your father didn't beat you and your mother
regularly, you would go to hell.


Absolutely false.

Absolutely true.

Who cares? They still make hand-crafted stoves!

On Jan 2, 5:36�am, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:29 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 4:02?pm, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:05:58 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:03:43 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:52:40 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German
ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to
how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?

Not that I'm aware, but I haven't heard that of the Amish either.

It doesn't get much press because portraying them as rustic romantics
is far more profitable for Hotels, bus tours, and the many other
businesses that benifit from tourism in Pennsyvania.

Baloney! It doesn't get much press because it doesn't happen that much.

Cheri

So you are saying you are aware that it happens?

Of course it happens, just as it's happened around the world since time
began, but it's not the norm, anymore than it's the norm for men to be
wife/child beaters just because some of them are.

Cheri

It's a religious cult, and this behavior is part of their belief
system. Women and children are property, and it is considered a good
thing to beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cite?

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/0...wing-up-amish/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa...

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa...

You might also want to do a little googling on Amsih Animal cruelty.

The bottom line is that the whole sales pitch that romanticizes the
Amish as some sort of quaint and wonderful throwback to simpler and
more "genuine" times is fabricated. They just have better PR people
than the Hells Angels and the Taliban. The states where they live make
a LOT of money off that false image, so they aren't about to do
anything to hurt business. You won't find a lot of information because
they work very hard to supress it. They are a little harder to
infiltrate than the KKK, and look how long it took to take THAT
organization mostly apart.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You give three links to stories about the same person, and you want
that extended to the whole community? By the way, do you know what an
unbiased source is? A website dedicated to "athiesm, evolution,
skepticism" hardly qualifies.

OK, we have established that you don't like the Amish. Now, instead
of taking a single story about a supposed event that allegedly
happened to someone else who has a bone to pick with the Amish and
spreading unsubstantiated stories about the Amish in general, why not
acknowledge that, if this did happen, it appears to be an isolated
incident. Then tell us what your real problem is with the Amish.
It's a lot easier to win arguments when they aren't based on
fabrications that can be uncovered as such later. Of course, it is
certainly possible to poison the well and raise doubts among those who
look no further, but the backlash can be hell...

On Jan 2, 10:49�am, wrote:
On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:35:49 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Jan 2, 5:36?am, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:29 -0800 (PST), "

wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 4:02?pm, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:05:58 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:03:43 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:52:40 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German
ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to
how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?

Not that I'm aware, but I haven't heard that of the Amish either.

It doesn't get much press because portraying them as rustic romantics
is far more profitable for Hotels, bus tours, and the many other
businesses that benifit from tourism in Pennsyvania.

Baloney! It doesn't get much press because it doesn't happen that much.

Cheri

So you are saying you are aware that it happens?

Of course it happens, just as it's happened around the world since time
began, but it's not the norm, anymore than it's the norm for men to be
wife/child beaters just because some of them are.

Cheri

It's a religious cult, and this behavior is part of their belief
system. Women and children are property, and it is considered a good
thing to beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cite?

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/0...wing-up-amish/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa....

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa....

You might also want to do a little googling on Amsih Animal cruelty.

The bottom line is that the whole sales pitch that romanticizes the
Amish as some sort of quaint and wonderful throwback to simpler and
more "genuine" times is fabricated. They just have better PR people
than the Hells Angels and the Taliban. The states where they live make
a LOT of money off that false image, so they aren't about to do
anything to hurt business. You won't find a lot of information because
they work very hard to supress it. They are a little harder to
infiltrate than the KKK, and look how long it took to take THAT
organization mostly apart.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You give three links to stories about the same person, and you want
that extended to the whole community? �By the way, do you know what an
unbiased source is? �A website dedicated to "athiesm, evolution,
skepticism" hardly qualifies.

OK, we have established that you don't like the Amish. �Now, instead
of taking a single story about a supposed event that allegedly
happened to someone else who has a bone to pick with the Amish and
spreading unsubstantiated stories about the Amish in general, why not
acknowledge that, if this did happen, it appears to be an isolated
incident. �Then tell us what your real problem is with the Amish..
It's a lot easier to win arguments when they aren't based on
fabrications that can be uncovered as such later. �Of course, it is
certainly possible to poison the well and raise doubts among those who
look no further, but the backlash can be hell...

The account I gave a link for is a FIRST HAND account. If you dismiss
that so easily, then it's obvious that it is you that has the agenda
and bias.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

A SINGLE account, which you extended to the whole community. By your
logic, everyone in every ethnic group and from every religion is a
wifebeater. And a child molester. And a thief. And a rapist. And a
murderer. And ...

I didn't dismiss the account as false. I said it was unsubstantiated,
and if true did not qualify as an indictment of an entire community.

On Jan 2, 8:02*am, "HeyBub" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 3:37 pm, "Ed Pawlowski" wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Having grown up (physically) in NYC, and having many, many friends
and relatives that lived in apartment buildings, I can truthfully
say that I have never heard of a "Sabbath Switch". I also don't
ever recall having an elevator stop on every floor, every Saturday.

Maybe there were never any Jews in these buildings? I think not.

Many cooking stoves also have a Sabbath mode. It is OK to adjust the
temperature, but not to start the fire.

Now this I have heard off, although it was never called Sabbath mode
when I was growing up.

I knew of families that would turn on the oven to a very low temp
before sundown on Friday night so they could use the oven on Saturday.
Same went for keeping a pot of water simmering on the stovetop so they
could use a flame. I knew of other habits, such as night lights in
dark basements, etc.

However, I have never of a Sabbath mode for elevators in high-rises.
Granted, I could be wrong, I just never heard of it in NYC.

A teaching moment...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbath_elevator

The operative rule is that an observant Jew is permitted to take advantage
of a process that began before the Sabbath. Heck, all one's food was GROWING
on some prior Sabbath!

Some people think it's a CHORE to pre-tear the toilet paper, but not really.
The paper's got to be torn eventually...- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Thanks...like I said I could be wrong and obviously I was - sort of
anyway.

Some of the areas of NYC where I hung out (Forest Hills comes to mind)
had large Jewish populations and lots of tall apartment buildings. I
don't recall seeing elevator control panels like the one shown in the
Wiki page. In fact, I just called my wife, who grew up in an apartment
building in Forest Hills and she never heard of them either. I then
called my sister-in-law - a Jew (non-orthdox) living on Long Island
and working in Manhatten and she has never seen one either. She knew
all about families that had "goys" who would turn on lights and stoves
at agreed upon times for the Jews and other "automatic" mechanisms
like I mentioned before, but she has never heard of nor seen a Sabbath
elevator. But obviously, they exist.

She also mentioned, just like they say in the Wiki article, that it
all depends on your level of observance. Some Jews feel that using
things like goys to turn on a light or riding in a Sabbath elevator
would be bending the rules too far, while others think it is fine.

In any case, it can make for an interesting discussion.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:04:58 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:


Well, obviously... the heater is electric. What would Amish know about
electric heaters?

That said, there is a store near me that sells Amish-made furniture; I'm
tempted to buy some because it looks pretty close to what I would make
myself should I have the time/tools/motivation to do so. Visiting there
and then a well known general furniture store immediately afterwards
confirmed that sometimes, yes, you do get what you pay for (and paying
2x the price to get better quality is not always that bad a deal.)

nate

Absolutely. I've found rather than buy particle board furniture, it's
worth paying twice as much for big-particle board furniture.

Just kidding. You're right.

Sometimes with men's clothes, if you spend twice as much, you get
something that lasts 4 or 8 times as long. Etc.

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 12:32:10 -0500, mm wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 11:04:58 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:


Well, obviously... the heater is electric. What would Amish know about
electric heaters?

That said, there is a store near me that sells Amish-made furniture; I'm
tempted to buy some because it looks pretty close to what I would make
myself should I have the time/tools/motivation to do so. Visiting there
and then a well known general furniture store immediately afterwards
confirmed that sometimes, yes, you do get what you pay for (and paying
2x the price to get better quality is not always that bad a deal.)

nate

Absolutely. I've found rather than buy particle board furniture, it's
worth paying twice as much for big-particle board furniture.

Just kidding. You're right.

Sometimes with men's clothes, if you spend twice as much, you get
something that lasts 4 or 8 times as long. Etc.

and sometimes the exact opposite, ie: designer jeans.

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message

She also mentioned, just like they say in the Wiki article, that it
all depends on your level of observance. Some Jews feel that using
things like goys to turn on a light or riding in a Sabbath elevator
would be bending the rules too far, while others think it is fine.

In any case, it can make for an interesting discussion.


************************************************** *******

Honey, I'm hungry. Can you call Rent-A-Goy to turn on the stove?

When I was in high school I worked in a grocery store owned by a Jewish
couple. A few times we were asked to do certain things at the time of the
Holidays, but it was minimal. Their level of observance was low.

N8N wrote:

Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of course.)
They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't tell them
apart from one another if you covered the labels. Last pair of Levi's
I bought (at a real Levi's store, not the cheap ones you get in
department stores) got a hole in the denim right over the right front
pocket after maybe 6 mos. of wear... not going to pay $40 for that
again.


That may have been intentional. Levi-Strauss is a gay-friendly company.

HeyBub wrote:
N8N wrote:
Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of course.)
They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't tell them
apart from one another if you covered the labels. Last pair of Levi's
I bought (at a real Levi's store, not the cheap ones you get in
department stores) got a hole in the denim right over the right front
pocket after maybe 6 mos. of wear... not going to pay $40 for that
again.


That may have been intentional. Levi-Strauss is a gay-friendly company.


You sure seem to pay a lot of attention to the gay world, for a
presumably straight guy...

But as to Levi-Strauss- they are naught but a brand name now, just like
all the others. I don't think they have operated any of their own plants
in at least ten years, and I haven't seen 'made in USA' on any of their
products in longer than that. It made me sad when that happened- I used
to be a loyal customer. I started drifting away when they tried to
become a fashion company, rather than a vendor of durable reasonably
priced clothing. Because of the long-term contracts they had with the
'name' department stores, they had to bring out a cheap line (aka
'signature series') to get space at wally world and such. No tabs, and
no pocket stitching. But even their fancy line has gone to hell- only a
couple colors and styles, sky-high prices, way too much catering to
urban hood styles, etc. And I haven't seen the real jean jackets in at
least 10 years.

For a couple years, one of the other manufacturers (Dickie, I think)
made a pretty good knockoff of the 550 5-pocket style, in several
non-blue normal colors, and not pre-frayed. I could even wear them to
the office. But alas, those too have vanished. When the ones I have now
wear out, I'll be trapped in khaki hell till something else comes along.
I don't do 'dress' pants, so my choices are limited.

--
aem sends...

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:07:40 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
N8N wrote:

Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of course.)
They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't tell them
apart from one another if you covered the labels. Last pair of Levi's
I bought (at a real Levi's store, not the cheap ones you get in
department stores) got a hole in the denim right over the right front
pocket after maybe 6 mos. of wear... not going to pay $40 for that
again.


That may have been intentional. Levi-Strauss is a gay-friendly company.


what an idiotic comment.

On 1/2/2009 2:56 PM AZ Nomad spake thus:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:07:40 -0600, HeyBub wrote:
N8N wrote:

Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of course.)
They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't tell them
apart from one another if you covered the labels. Last pair of Levi's
I bought (at a real Levi's store, not the cheap ones you get in
department stores) got a hole in the denim right over the right front
pocket after maybe 6 mos. of wear... not going to pay $40 for that
again.

That may have been intentional. Levi-Strauss is a gay-friendly company.

what an idiotic comment.

Actually, it's true. That may have been written as an irrelevant joke,
but it is a San Francisco-based company that is gay-friendly (a credit
to them in my book, but whatever).


--
Washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the
powerless means to side with the powerful, not to be neutral.

- Paulo Freire

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:49:56 -0500, wrote:

On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:35:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Jan 2, 5:36?am, wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:29 -0800 (PST), "





wrote:
On Dec 31 2008, 4:02?pm, wrote:
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:05:58 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 10:03:43 -0800, "Cheri"
wrote:

wrote in message
...
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 20:52:40 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

wrote:
On Tue, 30 Dec 2008 18:08:08 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

dpb wrote:
On Dec 30, 11:24 am, Frank wrote:

Of course I come from a fairly frugal family of mostly German
ancestry,
so the Amish and I probably have at least a little in common as to
how
we look at physical goods...

nate

Do Germans also beat their wives and children, and consider them
property?

Not that I'm aware, but I haven't heard that of the Amish either.

It doesn't get much press because portraying them as rustic romantics
is far more profitable for Hotels, bus tours, and the many other
businesses that benifit from tourism in Pennsyvania.

Baloney! It doesn't get much press because it doesn't happen that much.

Cheri

So you are saying you are aware that it happens?

Of course it happens, just as it's happened around the world since time
began, but it's not the norm, anymore than it's the norm for men to be
wife/child beaters just because some of them are.

Cheri

It's a religious cult, and this behavior is part of their belief
system. Women and children are property, and it is considered a good
thing to beat them regularly. Gods will, ya know!- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Cite?

http://tinyfrog.wordpress.com/2008/0...wing-up-amish/

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa...

http://www.fourhourworkweek.com/blog...g-the-amish-pa...

You might also want to do a little googling on Amsih Animal cruelty.

The bottom line is that the whole sales pitch that romanticizes the
Amish as some sort of quaint and wonderful throwback to simpler and
more "genuine" times is fabricated. They just have better PR people
than the Hells Angels and the Taliban. The states where they live make
a LOT of money off that false image, so they aren't about to do
anything to hurt business. You won't find a lot of information because
they work very hard to supress it. They are a little harder to
infiltrate than the KKK, and look how long it took to take THAT
organization mostly apart.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You give three links to stories about the same person, and you want
that extended to the whole community? By the way, do you know what an
unbiased source is? A website dedicated to "athiesm, evolution,
skepticism" hardly qualifies.

OK, we have established that you don't like the Amish. Now, instead
of taking a single story about a supposed event that allegedly
happened to someone else who has a bone to pick with the Amish and
spreading unsubstantiated stories about the Amish in general, why not
acknowledge that, if this did happen, it appears to be an isolated
incident. Then tell us what your real problem is with the Amish.
It's a lot easier to win arguments when they aren't based on
fabrications that can be uncovered as such later. Of course, it is
certainly possible to poison the well and raise doubts among those who
look no further, but the backlash can be hell...

The account I gave a link for is a FIRST HAND account. If you dismiss
that so easily, then it's obvious that it is you that has the agenda
and bias.

It is a first hand account - yes - but I would say she has an axe to
grind.
Does it happen sometimes? In some communities?
Undoubtably - but it is NOT part of their religion.
It happens in ALL communities, to one extent or another - not unique
to the Amish.

If a young person does not want to become an adult Amish, they are
free to leave. They WILL be shunned - to their community they will be
no better than the "english" - they will not be allowed to associate
with their own people. THAT is true.

I grew up in an Amish area, and currently live in an area with many
Old Order (as well as other) mennonites, and about 30 miles from
"amish country"

aemeijers wrote:
HeyBub wrote:
N8N wrote:
Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of
course.) They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't
tell them apart from one another if you covered the labels. Last
pair of Levi's I bought (at a real Levi's store, not the cheap ones
you get in department stores) got a hole in the denim right over
the right front pocket after maybe 6 mos. of wear... not going to
pay $40 for that again.


That may have been intentional. Levi-Strauss is a gay-friendly
company.
You sure seem to pay a lot of attention to the gay world, for a
presumably straight guy...


I wouldn't have to if they'd simply paint themselves in vivid colors.

Well, some DO, actually -- but I mean all of them.

It's well known that Global Warming was caused by the AIDS quilt...

"N8N" wrote in message
Funny you should mention that... I used to be a Levi's snob, but
AFAICT their quality isn't any better than anyone else's today.
Needed a new pair of jeans over the holidays, bought a pair of
Wranglers for $16 at Target (spoken with a French accent, of course.)
They had Levi's one rack over for more $$ but I couldn't tell them
apart from one another if you covered the labels.

******************************************

Couple of months ago I bought a pair of Dockers from Casual Male for $50 or
so. A few weeks later I bought a pair of George brand slacks at WalMart for
$20. The details of the two are identical. Even some pocket stitching and
so forth is identical. Difference is the label and price tag.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...
Couple of months ago I bought a pair of Dockers from Casual Male for $50
or so. A few weeks later I bought a pair of George brand slacks at
WalMart for $20. The details of the two are identical. Even some pocket
stitching and so forth is identical. Difference is the label and price
tag.

Many years ago I worked briefly for Catalina Swimwear (which was an
expensive brand at the time) the same swim suits and sportswear also went
out under a different label and were cheaper. Same stuff, different price.

Cheri

On Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:35:32 GMT, aemeijers wrote:

But as to Levi-Strauss- they are naught but a brand name now, just like
all the others. I don't think they have operated any of their own plants
in at least ten years, and I haven't seen 'made in USA' on any of their
products in longer than that. It made me sad when that happened- I used
to be a loyal customer.

Same he now I just buy whatever carpenter pants or jeans I see at
a good price that fit reasonably well. I do have a pair of black
Levi's reverse cut jeans that are a model discontinued around 1986 or
so (when I bought them); I could never find another pair like these,
and they are in perfect shape, albeit faded from years of wear. They
don't fit, sadly, so I'm holding them for one of my nephews or niece
to grow into because by that time they'll be vintage, probably.