I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out sheetrock,
wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean" and
"disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem with
that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete block
walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring strip,
or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire someone to
hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them off. I would
assume they should have been removed as part of demolition, right? It is
not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this is typical or
usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or so,
and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should this
be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked before
I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC

"B King" wrote in message
...
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say? There is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong assumption.

Thanks,

MC

In article ,
"MiamiCuse" wrote:

"B King" wrote in message
...
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say? There is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong assumption.

Thanks,

MC

My dictionary says that "debris" means the "remains of anything broken
down or destroyed." It doesn't say those remains have to be loose on the
floor. The demolition contractor should remove the screws and nails from
the framing. Since he didn't, he evidently doesn't think he should, and
you're likely in for a fight. So think about what you want and how to
ask for it and what to negotiate for when you meet that resistance.

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"MiamiCuse" wrote:

"B King" wrote in message
...
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed
clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a
problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock
pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if
I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or
cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches
or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out?
Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I
asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed
clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a
contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of
your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say? There
is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails
and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the
premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of
the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong
assumption.

Thanks,

MC

My dictionary says that "debris" means the "remains of anything broken
down or destroyed." It doesn't say those remains have to be loose on the
floor. The demolition contractor should remove the screws and nails from
the framing. Since he didn't, he evidently doesn't think he should, and
you're likely in for a fight. So think about what you want and how to
ask for it and what to negotiate for when you meet that resistance.

Two things are obvious. You are an idiot, and you have no experience in
this area.

First, the work was not specified in the contract. So, the workers cannot
be faulted for not having ESP. Where was the owner when all the work was
being performed? There's so many questions when wrecking out something that
it is a good thing for the owner to be there. You avoid such problems as
occurred here. To go back after the people have finished is obvious
inattention by the owner. Besides, the removal of the nails and preparation
for further sheetrocking or covering is something that is prep work for that
crew since improper removal can result in more work for the next crew to
come in. Ripping out furring strips that someone may have to just put up
again in the same place is more money. Again, those guys should have had
their ESP working to know who was coming in next and how the wall should be
in preparation for them. It sounds like the owner is trying to get
something done for free that he should have been on top of. It would have
taken more time, hence more pay for the workers. Why wouldn't the
contractor want to do it?

Steve

In article ,
"SteveB" wrote:

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"MiamiCuse" wrote:

"B King" wrote in message
...
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed
clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a
problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock
pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if
I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or
cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches
or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out?
Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I
asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed
clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a
contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of
your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say? There
is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails
and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the
premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of
the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong
assumption.

Thanks,

MC

My dictionary says that "debris" means the "remains of anything broken
down or destroyed." It doesn't say those remains have to be loose on the
floor. The demolition contractor should remove the screws and nails from
the framing. Since he didn't, he evidently doesn't think he should, and
you're likely in for a fight. So think about what you want and how to
ask for it and what to negotiate for when you meet that resistance.

Two things are obvious. You are an idiot, and you have no experience in
this area.

First, the work was not specified in the contract. So, the workers cannot
be faulted for not having ESP. Where was the owner when all the work was
being performed? There's so many questions when wrecking out something that
it is a good thing for the owner to be there. You avoid such problems as
occurred here. To go back after the people have finished is obvious
inattention by the owner. Besides, the removal of the nails and preparation
for further sheetrocking or covering is something that is prep work for that
crew since improper removal can result in more work for the next crew to
come in. Ripping out furring strips that someone may have to just put up
again in the same place is more money. Again, those guys should have had
their ESP working to know who was coming in next and how the wall should be
in preparation for them. It sounds like the owner is trying to get
something done for free that he should have been on top of. It would have
taken more time, hence more pay for the workers. Why wouldn't the
contractor want to do it?

Steve

So having a different opinion makes me an idiot with no experience? I
guess you're an idiot, too, then, since you disagree with me? Or maybe
you're just a lazy contractor, coming to the defense of another lazy
contractor?

How about if I just kick a hole in the drywall, and call that "removal?"
Hey, the rest of the stuff was stuck to the wall with pesky nails and
screws.

Steve, name ONE procedure that would make use of a bunch of drywall
screws left in the wall. It doesn't take any god damn ESP to know that
those things need to be removed. So save your BS for the ignorant.

"SteveB" wrote in message
news

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"MiamiCuse" wrote:

"B King" wrote in message
...
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed
clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a
problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock
pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if
I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or
cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but
I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches
or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out?
Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I
asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed
clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a
contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of
your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say?
There is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to
get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails
and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the
premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I
have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of
the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong
assumption.

Thanks,

MC

My dictionary says that "debris" means the "remains of anything broken
down or destroyed." It doesn't say those remains have to be loose on the
floor. The demolition contractor should remove the screws and nails from
the framing. Since he didn't, he evidently doesn't think he should, and
you're likely in for a fight. So think about what you want and how to
ask for it and what to negotiate for when you meet that resistance.

Two things are obvious. You are an idiot, and you have no experience in
this area.

First, the work was not specified in the contract. So, the workers cannot
be faulted for not having ESP. Where was the owner when all the work was
being performed? There's so many questions when wrecking out something
that it is a good thing for the owner to be there. You avoid such
problems as occurred here. To go back after the people have finished is
obvious inattention by the owner. Besides, the removal of the nails and
preparation for further sheetrocking or covering is something that is prep
work for that crew since improper removal can result in more work for the
next crew to come in. Ripping out furring strips that someone may have to
just put up again in the same place is more money. Again, those guys
should have had their ESP working to know who was coming in next and how
the wall should be in preparation for them. It sounds like the owner is
trying to get something done for free that he should have been on top of.
It would have taken more time, hence more pay for the workers. Why
wouldn't the contractor want to do it?

Steve


Steve:

I was not there during the demo, the demo happened over a two week period
and I was there at the end of each day to observe progress and make sure
mistakes are caught sooner rather than later. There were mistakes made, and
things happened.

I noticed the nails, screws and staples, but I incorrectly assumed along the
way those are final details they will take care of at the end.

I am not asking them to remove the furing strips. I am saying there are
nails, screws and staples sticking out of the furring strips that was used
to hold the sheetrock that was there. If it's only a bunch of them and an
hour or two's work, I would not even question this and would have done it
myself, but we are talking about over a dozen full size walls and about 1000
SF of ceiling. If I get up on the ladder and hold a drill upside down to
remove all the screws that are screwed into the joist, some of those screws
still have "bits" of sheet rock around them, it would take me two days with
a bad back. If I hire a sheetrock installer I am sure he would charge me to
do extra prep of this. I cannot think of anything that would be affected by
it's removal, proper or improper. Again I am not talking about removal of
screws or nails that holds the furrring strips to the concrete block walls,
those are in place and OK. I am talking about the screws and nails that
holds the sheetrock that USED TO BE there. Those are sticking out 1/2" from
the wood. Also removal of baseboards and trim has lots of finished nails.
The boards were pulled out, the finished nails are still on the studs,
header and bottom plates. Again I can go remove those myself, probably not
as bad as the ceiling screws.

I have not bring this to the demo contractor's attention yet, we have a
meeting tomorrow to go over final details, and I intend to discuss it with
him, I just did not want to raise this if this indeed is NOT a standard part
of demo, since it's my first time doing it I honestly didn't know and
ignored to state this in the contract. I assumed removal of sheet rock
means removal of the fasteners that held the sheet rock, just like I assumed
removal of tiles means removal of the grout in between them, but in my
contract I did specifically stated that tile removal include tile removal,
thinset and whatever underneath it all the way to the stud. I just didn't
think of the screws and nails that held the sheetrock and trims.

If it's not standard, typical and usual customary than I guess I learned a
lesson.

MC

On Sep 8, 11:21 am, "MiamiCuse" wrote:
"SteveB" wrote in message

news






"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
"MiamiCuse" wrote:

"B King" wrote in message
.. .
MiamiCuse wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed
clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a
problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock
pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if
I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or
cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but
I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches
or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out?
Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I
asked
before I complain about it.

First, I assume you mean "broom cleaned" instead of "bloomed
clean"....But
then, assumptions are the wrong thing to do, when it comes to a
contract.

Instead of everyone trying to guess or assume exactly the wording of
your
contract. Why not spell it out here? What does your contract say?
There is
a difference between demo work, and prep work.... Are you trying to
get
prep work out of someone for free?

The contract has no specific clause on who ought to remove all the nails
and
screws. The only thing I put in there states:

"Contractor agrees to remove all construction debris and leave the
premises
in broom clean condition upon project completion".

That's why I am trying to understand, when a sheetrock is removed, I
have
screws along every eight inches of every stud. Is removing them part of
the
demo work or part of the prep work for the sheetrock hanging project? I
sort of assumed it's part of demo work, but that may be a wrong
assumption.

Thanks,

MC

My dictionary says that "debris" means the "remains of anything broken
down or destroyed." It doesn't say those remains have to be loose on the
floor. The demolition contractor should remove the screws and nails from
the framing. Since he didn't, he evidently doesn't think he should, and
you're likely in for a fight. So think about what you want and how to
ask for it and what to negotiate for when you meet that resistance.

Two things are obvious. You are an idiot, and you have no experience in
this area.

First, the work was not specified in the contract. So, the workers cannot
be faulted for not having ESP. Where was the owner when all the work was
being performed? There's so many questions when wrecking out something
that it is a good thing for the owner to be there. You avoid such
problems as occurred here. To go back after the people have finished is
obvious inattention by the owner. Besides, the removal of the nails and
preparation for further sheetrocking or covering is something that is prep
work for that crew since improper removal can result in more work for the
next crew to come in. Ripping out furring strips that someone may have to
just put up again in the same place is more money. Again, those guys
should have had their ESP working to know who was coming in next and how
the wall should be in preparation for them. It sounds like the owner is
trying to get something done for free that he should have been on top of.
It would have taken more time, hence more pay for the workers. Why
wouldn't the contractor want to do it?

Steve

Steve:

I was not there during the demo, the demo happened over a two week period
and I was there at the end of each day to observe progress and make sure
mistakes are caught sooner rather than later. There were mistakes made, and
things happened.

I noticed the nails, screws and staples, but I incorrectly assumed along the
way those are final details they will take care of at the end.

I am not asking them to remove the furing strips. I am saying there are
nails, screws and staples sticking out of the furring strips that was used
to hold the sheetrock that was there. If it's only a bunch of them and an
hour or two's work, I would not even question this and would have done it
myself, but we are talking about over a dozen full size walls and about 1000
SF of ceiling. If I get up on the ladder and hold a drill upside down to
remove all the screws that are screwed into the joist, some of those screws
still have "bits" of sheet rock around them, it would take me two days with
a bad back. If I hire a sheetrock installer I am sure he would charge me to
do extra prep of this. I cannot think of anything that would be affected by
it's removal, proper or improper. Again I am not talking about removal of
screws or nails that holds the furrring strips to the concrete block walls,
those are in place and OK. I am talking about the screws and nails that
holds the sheetrock that USED TO BE there. Those are sticking out 1/2" from
the wood. Also removal of baseboards and trim has lots of finished nails.
The boards were pulled out, the finished nails are still on the studs,
header and bottom plates. Again I can go remove those myself, probably not
as bad as the ceiling screws.

I have not bring this to the demo contractor's attention yet, we have a
meeting tomorrow to go over final details, and I intend to discuss it with
him, I just did not want to raise this if this indeed is NOT a standard part
of demo, since it's my first time doing it I honestly didn't know and
ignored to state this in the contract. I assumed removal of sheet rock
means removal of the fasteners that held the sheet rock, just like I assumed
removal of tiles means removal of the grout in between them, but in my
contract I did specifically stated that tile removal include tile removal,
thinset and whatever underneath it all the way to the stud. I just didn't
think of the screws and nails that held the sheetrock and trims.

If it's not standard, typical and usual customary than I guess I learned a
lesson.

MC- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Even if it is std, typical, customary, etc, the lesson to learn is you
should spell it out in the contract. One sentence could avoid this.

OTOH, I understand what you are asking. So far, you've gotten a lot
of opinions, but nothing that I see from anyone with experience that
addresses the question of what is usually done with demo work of this
type. And that is important, because if it's not specd in the
contract, that is what should prevail and what a judge would look at.

Hopefully you haven't paid them, in which case, your in a pretty good
position.

On Sep 7, 8:12 pm, "MiamiCuse" wrote:
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out sheetrock,
wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean" and
"disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem with
that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete block
walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring strip,
or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire someone to
hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them off. I would
assume they should have been removed as part of demolition, right? It is
not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this is typical or
usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or so,
and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should this
be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked before
I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC

I have done a few demo contracts, and if I was leading the job, I
would make the assumption that pulling the nails is part of the demo.
What is standard? Who knows. I really doubt there is 200 years worth
of case law that would give you guidance on this issue. It would have
been nice to have this spelled out in a contract, but here in the real
world, a lot is left off of contracts. Drawing up a contract that
spells out every single thing would practically be as much work as the
job itself. That is why contracts have such terms as "workmanlike
manner" and lawyers use terms such as "standard of the trade". IMO
pulling nails would be part of the demo contract.

I would suggest you call your demo guy, and nicely ask if he could
send someone back to pull the nails. If you haven't paid him you have
some pretty good leverage. I guess if he refuses and ****es you off,
you could go after him in small claims court, though it would be a
hell of a lot easier to just pull the nails and get over it. This
sort of thing is all part of the joy of general contracting.

On Sep 8, 12:44 pm, B King wrote:
marson wrote:
I have done a few demo contracts, and if I was leading the job, I
would make the assumption that pulling the nails is part of the demo.
What is standard? Who knows. I really doubt there is 200 years worth
of case law that would give you guidance on this issue. It would have
been nice to have this spelled out in a contract, but here in the real
world, a lot is left off of contracts. Drawing up a contract that
spells out every single thing would practically be as much work as the
job itself. That is why contracts have such terms as "workmanlike
manner" and lawyers use terms such as "standard of the trade". IMO
pulling nails would be part of the demo contract.

I would suggest you call your demo guy, and nicely ask if he could
send someone back to pull the nails. If you haven't paid him you have
some pretty good leverage. I guess if he refuses and ****es you off,
you could go after him in small claims court, though it would be a
hell of a lot easier to just pull the nails and get over it. This
sort of thing is all part of the joy of general contracting.

In the real contracting world, a lot is NOT left out.

Of course a lot is left out. Just a casual glance at this newsgroup
over time shows many people don't even have a contract at all. And
countless people have come in here with issues of this type. How
many homeowner's would think to put in a clause stating that all nails
have to be removed? I'm sure plenty, perhaps most, wouldn't even
think of it when looking at a contract.



I have no idea of
the kind of outfits you have contracted with, but they do show a shady
side. A simple clause saying "removal of all fasteners", or something to
the effect of "walls to be drywall ready".

Yeah, we know that would have avoided the problem, but that's already
obvious.


I've done government spec work, and you learn a lot without a lawyer.
Details, details, and more details, define any contract.

So, you're expecting a typical homeowner contract to be done like a
DOD contract? Hmmm, last time I checked, plenty has gone wrong there
too hasn't it?



Advising someone not to pay, is very poor advice, & asking for a lien on
the property. Apparently, you haven't been involved in any lien
processes. Property liens must be placed _within_ 30 days of
non-payment. This places a burden on the property owner, which in some
cases, the property owner must sue to get the lien off the property,
even after the property owner paid up.-

BS. No one should pay in full unless the work was competed to their
reasonable satisfaction. To do so, gives up all your leverage. I
would pay, but withhold an amount for the work in dispute. If they
want to try to lien, let them go right ahead. You can sue them in
small claims. Who cares if they put a lien on, unless you;re about
to sell or refinance. Bottom line, no reason to just roll over and
pay in full.

On Sep 8, 2:31 pm, B King wrote:
wrote:
So, you're expecting a typical homeowner contract to be done like a
DOD contract? Hmmm, last time I checked, plenty has gone wrong there
too hasn't it?

This smartass attitude, is exactly why you end up with your tit in the
wringer. If you're going to act like a general contractor, at least read
a book or two.


Nothing smartass at all about it. I'm simply pointing out that even
with govt contracts, contrary to what you claim, disputes arise
because the contract may not have covered everything. You expect
Miami, or a typical homeowner, who maybe has demo work done once in
their lifetime to be omniscient. Well, they aren't. I can see
someone overlooking specifying that all nails and screws are to be
removed from the stud faces.




Advising someone not to pay, is very poor advice, & asking for a lien on
the property. Apparently, you haven't been involved in any lien
processes. Property liens must be placed _within_ 30 days of
non-payment. This places a burden on the property owner, which in some
cases, the property owner must sue to get the lien off the property,
even after the property owner paid up.-

BS. No one should pay in full unless the work was competed to their
reasonable satisfaction. To do so, gives up all your leverage. I
would pay, but withhold an amount for the work in dispute. If they
want to try to lien, let them go right ahead. You can sue them in
small claims. Who cares if they put a lien on, unless you;re about
to sell or refinance. Bottom line, no reason to just roll over and
pay in full.

Call BS all you want. My company has placed numerous liens on properties
because of insurance has failed to make payment in full. Let me explain,
there's no "trying to lien" as you suggest. It's a simple form you fill
out.


Oh really? And what do you then do with that little piece of
paper? Does my house become worthless just because you put a lien
on it? In fact, unless I'm selling it or refinancing, it doesn't
amount to squat. Unless you're some timid little homeowner, about to
be intimidated by a contractor who you believe failed to perform all
the work required.

First, refusing to pay in full is the right thing to do, because if
one just pays in full, that is one piece of evidence that a court will
look at. As in, if the work was unaceptable, why did you pay in
full? Second, just telling the contractor your not going to pay is
the first step. Now, as the contractor, are you going to waste your
time screwing around with a lien over the remaining $300 or are you
going to just take out the nails or make a reasonable counteroffer.
Hmmm, OK, maybe you would go file your mechanics lien. My next move
is to sue you in small claims. There a judge will decide who's right
and wrong, not you. The matter is resolved in court, where either
side could win and goodbye big bad lien.







You believe you know about liens, but in reality you don't. Yes, things
end up in court, and that's what courts are for. But, the attitude of
"I'm not paying you" may hold leverage against the kid cutting your
yard. Doesn't scare anyone who actually in the contracting business.


You make the foolish assumption that all states have identical laws
regarding liens. They don't. Take a look at the below description
of some of the requirements and steps involved. Pay particular
attention to the last part, about having to FILE A LAWSUIT TO
FORECLOSE THE LIEN WITHIN A SPECIFIED TIME. You make it sound like
there is no due process, all it takes is your word that someone owes
you money and bingo, you have a lien and they must pay. Fortunately,
it doesn't work that way. Basicly, the mechanics lien is there to
prevent the property, which you enhanced, from being sold without the
matter be RESOLVED. Note, RESOLVED and decided in your favor are two
very different things.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanics_lien
Creation and perfection
Under the statutes, the lien is usually created by the performance of
labor or the supplying of material that improves the property. Just
what type of contribution counts as a valid basis for a mechanics lien
varies, depending on the particular state statute that applies. Some
common examples a

Laborers, carpenters, electricians, and plumbers working on the
project site;
Lumber yards, plumbing supply houses and electrical suppliers;
Architects and civil engineers who drew up the construction plans and
specifications; and
Offsite fabricators of specialty items that are ultimately
incorporated into the project.
Often, there is no simple dividing line that is useful in every state,
or even in every case, for determining this eligibility. Deciding
whether a party has a legitimate lien right may depend on examining
court cases that have either upheld or rejected lien claims in the
same state.

Unlike other security interests, in most states, mechanic's liens are
given to contractors and material suppliers who may or may not have a
direct contractual agreement with the owner of the land. In fact, this
is often the norm because in most cases, the owner of the land
contracts only with a general contractor (often called a "prime
contractor"). The general contractor, in turn, hires subcontractors
("subs") and material suppliers ("suppliers") to perform the work.
These subs and suppliers are entitled to liens on the owner's property
to secure their payment from the general contractor.

However, to have an enforceable lien, it usually must be "perfected."
This means that the holder of the lien must comply with the statutory
requirements for maintaining and enforcing the lien. These
requirements, which contain time limits, are generally as follows:

Providing the required preliminary notice to the property owner
disclosing the entitlement to the lien (some states).
Filing notices of commencement of work (some states).
Filing notices in the required public records offices of the intention
to file a lien if unpaid (some states).
Filing the notice or claim of lien in the required public records
offices within a specified period of time after the materials have
been supplied or the work completed (all states). The law varies from
state-to-state on both the triggering event and the timing of this.
Some states require the filing within a period measured from the time
when the claimant completes its work, while others specify the event
as being after all work on the project has been completed. The filing
time periods after the triggering event vary, with 4-6 months being
common.
Filing a lawsuit to foreclose the lien within a specified time
period.





I'd just as soon put a lien on a problem payer, than have a secretary
make a phone call. It's that simple. And, once the problem payer pays in
full, let them sue me to get the lien off. Business is business. If you
can't handle a contract, being a homeowner, retain a lawyer for crying
out loud.

The sniveling ilk of your kind, is repulsive.


I think readers here can figure out who's repulsive and how you run
your business. You immediately classify someone like Miami who has a
legitimate disagreement over work performed into basicly a dummy and a
"problem payer." And then you indicate you make customers sue you to
take a lien off after having been paid in full. Real professional.

Funny thing is, guys like you are the first to not pay someone else,
like a sub, when they aren't happy with the work.

On Sep 8, 11:44 am, B King wrote:
marson wrote:
I have done a few demo contracts, and if I was leading the job, I
would make the assumption that pulling the nails is part of the demo.
What is standard? Who knows. I really doubt there is 200 years worth
of case law that would give you guidance on this issue. It would have
been nice to have this spelled out in a contract, but here in the real
world, a lot is left off of contracts. Drawing up a contract that
spells out every single thing would practically be as much work as the
job itself. That is why contracts have such terms as "workmanlike
manner" and lawyers use terms such as "standard of the trade". IMO
pulling nails would be part of the demo contract.

I would suggest you call your demo guy, and nicely ask if he could
send someone back to pull the nails. If you haven't paid him you have
some pretty good leverage. I guess if he refuses and ****es you off,
you could go after him in small claims court, though it would be a
hell of a lot easier to just pull the nails and get over it. This
sort of thing is all part of the joy of general contracting.

In the real contracting world, a lot is NOT left out. I have no idea of
the kind of outfits you have contracted with, but they do show a shady
side. A simple clause saying "removal of all fasteners", or something to
the effect of "walls to be drywall ready".

I've done government spec work, and you learn a lot without a lawyer.
Details, details, and more details, define any contract.

Advising someone not to pay, is very poor advice, & asking for a lien on
the property. Apparently, you haven't been involved in any lien
processes. Property liens must be placed _within_ 30 days of
non-payment. This places a burden on the property owner, which in some
cases, the property owner must sue to get the lien off the property,
even after the property owner paid up.

Leins must be placed withing 30 days? This varies by state, Perry
Mason. In some states, you are required to give pre len notice before
you start to retain lien rights, so if the owner didn't sign such a
notice, the contractor couldn't file a lien anyway.. I'll stand by
my post. The OP shouldn'tt pay the guy until he asks him to send
someone over to pull the nails. This is hardly risking a lien.

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
...
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring
strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire
someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them
off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of demolition,
right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this
is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC


Let me clarify the situation further. This is not a confrontation between
me and the contractor. I am merely asking questions and doing homework
before I ask him. He has not refused to remove them, I just wanted to make
sure removal of them is standard. Yes I failed to state this in the
contract, but I incorrectly assumed if sheetrock goes the nails and screws
go, my bad.

Here are a few pictures so it is crystal clear what I am talking about:

Ceiling sheet rock removed:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010313.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010312.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010314.jpg

see many of the staples and screws still have bits of sheetrock with them.

Here is a view of some of the framing with the door jamb and the rough
opening removed. Apparently some of the lumber were nailed from the other
side of the sister studs, so we got long nails sticking out:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010322.jpg

Is it reasonable to expect those to be removed?

No it is not stated in the contract, so if it's not spec'ed then it's not
covered, then obviously I made a bad assumption and a back breaking lesson
if I have to do it myself.

Thanks!

MC

On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:11:37 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:


"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
. ..
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring
strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire
someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them
off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of demolition,
right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this
is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC


Let me clarify the situation further. This is not a confrontation between
me and the contractor. I am merely asking questions and doing homework
before I ask him. He has not refused to remove them, I just wanted to make
sure removal of them is standard. Yes I failed to state this in the
contract, but I incorrectly assumed if sheetrock goes the nails and screws
go, my bad.

Here are a few pictures so it is crystal clear what I am talking about:

Ceiling sheet rock removed:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010313.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010312.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010314.jpg

see many of the staples and screws still have bits of sheetrock with them.

Here is a view of some of the framing with the door jamb and the rough
opening removed. Apparently some of the lumber were nailed from the other
side of the sister studs, so we got long nails sticking out:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010322.jpg

Is it reasonable to expect those to be removed?

No it is not stated in the contract, so if it's not spec'ed then it's not
covered, then obviously I made a bad assumption and a back breaking lesson
if I have to do it myself.

Thanks!

MC

Trying to follow the thread, you mentioned you visited the site
frequently... This would've been a perfect time to bring it up while
the workers/boss was there. Saves him time and effort.

Why would you remove the RO? (changing a wall?) I'm just a DIY person,
but those headers don't seem to have enough support. Did you go too
far in lumber removal - too expose the header nails?

BTW, protect that wire!

--
Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."

On Sep 8, 10:54 pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:11:37 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:







"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
. ..
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring
strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire
someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them
off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of demolition,
right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this
is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC

Let me clarify the situation further. This is not a confrontation between
me and the contractor. I am merely asking questions and doing homework
before I ask him. He has not refused to remove them, I just wanted to make
sure removal of them is standard. Yes I failed to state this in the
contract, but I incorrectly assumed if sheetrock goes the nails and screws
go, my bad.

Here are a few pictures so it is crystal clear what I am talking about:

Ceiling sheet rock removed:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010313.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010312.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010314.jpg

see many of the staples and screws still have bits of sheetrock with them.

Here is a view of some of the framing with the door jamb and the rough
opening removed. Apparently some of the lumber were nailed from the other
side of the sister studs, so we got long nails sticking out:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010322.jpg

Is it reasonable to expect those to be removed?

No it is not stated in the contract, so if it's not spec'ed then it's not
covered, then obviously I made a bad assumption and a back breaking lesson
if I have to do it myself.

Thanks!

MC

Trying to follow the thread, you mentioned you visited the site
frequently... This would've been a perfect time to bring it up while
the workers/boss was there. Saves him time and effort.

Why would you remove the RO? (changing a wall?) I'm just a DIY person,
but those headers don't seem to have enough support. Did you go too
far in lumber removal - too expose the header nails?

BTW, protect that wire!

--
Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The interesting thing in this thread is that no one has answered the
actual question. And that is if anyone has had similar demo work
done, if it's not specifically called out in the contract, did it
include removal of the sheetrock nails, screws, etc that are on the
stud faces?

My own oppiniion is that it should, because the nails/screws are part
of the sheetrock surface that is specd for removal in the contract.
The contract also says all debris are to be removed, which might also
be construed to mean the nails still in the studs, however I think
viewing it as part of the sheetrock surface is more appropriate.

I don't think the contractor should be required to remove the nails
left sticking out that were driven in around the door frame from the
other side. Those nails were not part of the material being removed,
but are part of the rest of the structure.

If you were doing this project for yourself and by yourself I
doubt that you would remove all nails and staples. You might
hammer then all flush. You would probably miss some and still be
hammering them flush when you go to install the new finish.

The nails at the jamb certainly do NOT look like something for the
demolition man to handle.

You can certainly ask, but if I had contracted it with you the
most I would consider would be to hammer to flush on the ceiling
(grudgingly, I might add) and I would do nothing at the jamb.

Perhaps it would be a better approach to ask how much the fella
wanted to clean it all up. It might be fairly inexpensive. There
is something really strange going on at that jamb. It is almost
as if the last guys used a used header or two on something. The
nails are not normal and are old. If they had been nailed into
what was just removed, they would be shiny.

--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
...

"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
...
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling
out sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be
"bloomed clean" and "disposed", and for the most part it is,
and I don't have a problem with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet
rock pulled down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling
removed from concrete block walls, there are tons of staples,
nails, screws still on the furring strip, or studs or concrete
walls. They cannot stay there if I hire someone to hang new
sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them off. I
would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the
contract but I wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8
inches or so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to
take them out? Should this be included as part of demo? I
would think so but I thought I asked before I complain about
it.

Thanks,

MC


Let me clarify the situation further. This is not a
confrontation between me and the contractor. I am merely asking
questions and doing homework before I ask him. He has not
refused to remove them, I just wanted to make sure removal of
them is standard. Yes I failed to state this in the contract,
but I incorrectly assumed if sheetrock goes the nails and screws
go, my bad.

Here are a few pictures so it is crystal clear what I am talking
about:

Ceiling sheet rock removed:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010313.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010312.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010314.jpg

see many of the staples and screws still have bits of sheetrock
with them.

Here is a view of some of the framing with the door jamb and the
rough opening removed. Apparently some of the lumber were
nailed from the other side of the sister studs, so we got long
nails sticking out:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010322.jpg

Is it reasonable to expect those to be removed?

No it is not stated in the contract, so if it's not spec'ed then
it's not covered, then obviously I made a bad assumption and a
back breaking lesson if I have to do it myself.

Thanks!

MC

MiamiCuse wrote:

I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out sheetrock,
wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean" and
"disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem with
that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete block
walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the furring strip,
or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire someone to
hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut them off. I would
assume they should have been removed as part of demolition, right? It is
not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if this is typical or
usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or so,
and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should this
be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked before
I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC


I am a general contractor and here is my answer. I have had
both scenarios and there is no definitive standard. I have
had a lot of demo done by others and generally, if the demo
subcontractor deals with the nails/screws, they do not remove
them. They drive them in or bend them over. They do not do a
real good job of this, so I always assume that I will be doing
some prep work for drywall.

I do not allow them to leave the drywall remnants on the
screws as the OP has in his situation. In the process of
removing these bits, the demo guys will usually break off
screws and bend over nails.

Sometimes I do not want the nails and/or screws left in, and
in those situations, I put a guy or two with the demo crew to
oversee and help with REMOVAL of said fasteners.

Every situation is different, but in general, I expect the
demo guys to do a rough clean of the studs. I always expect
to do SOME prep work to get ready for wall coverings.

--
Robert Allison
Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX

clipped

Well since I did not specific in the contract, then it lies with me. I will
try to get rid of the ones on the studs myself, and perhaps hire the drywall
people to deal with the ceiling ones.

I don't think there is a tool designed to remove exposed nails/staples
right?

MC


I haven't followed this thread much. From looking at one picture of the
ceiling, it looks like you might do better by just removing the furring
strips, rather than the nails. I sympathize with your situation, but I
sure wouldn't want to pay skilled drywall installers to pull nails.
Have you questioned them as to whether they can cut off the nails?
Might go a bit faster, and surely they have had similar situations.

"Robert Allison" wrote in message
news:ahVEi.799$Af1.641@trnddc06...
MiamiCuse wrote:

I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I
hire someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut
them off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition, right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I
wonder if this is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out? Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I asked
before I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC

I am a general contractor and here is my answer. I have had both
scenarios and there is no definitive standard. I have had a lot of demo
done by others and generally, if the demo subcontractor deals with the
nails/screws, they do not remove them. They drive them in or bend them
over. They do not do a real good job of this, so I always assume that I
will be doing some prep work for drywall.

I do not allow them to leave the drywall remnants on the screws as the OP
has in his situation. In the process of removing these bits, the demo
guys will usually break off screws and bend over nails.

Sometimes I do not want the nails and/or screws left in, and in those
situations, I put a guy or two with the demo crew to oversee and help with
REMOVAL of said fasteners.

Every situation is different, but in general, I expect the demo guys to do
a rough clean of the studs. I always expect to do SOME prep work to get
ready for wall coverings.

--
Robert Allison Rimshot, Inc.
Georgetown, TX


Thanks for the advise. I talked to the demo guy and he felt it should not
be part of the demo project but should be done by the drywall guys. He
thinks for him to pound in or remove every staple or nail will take
"forever". So I have to do it myself or hire the drywall prep guy to do it.
A lesson learned definitely. Next time my contract will be detailed to the
Nth degree.

MC

wrote in message
ups.com...
On Sep 8, 10:54 pm, Oren wrote:
On Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:11:37 -0400, "MiamiCuse"
wrote:







"MiamiCuse" wrote in message
. ..
I have a dumb question.

I hired someone to do some major demolition involving pulling out
sheetrock, wood paneling, removal of mirrors, tiles etc...

I specified in the contract that everything needs to be "bloomed
clean"
and "disposed", and for the most part it is, and I don't have a
problem
with that.

However, whenever 2x4s are pulled out from the wall, or sheet rock
pulled
down from the ceiling or wall, or wood paneling removed from concrete
block walls, there are tons of staples, nails, screws still on the
furring
strip, or studs or concrete walls. They cannot stay there if I hire
someone to hang new sheetrock they will have to get them out or cut
them
off. I would assume they should have been removed as part of
demolition,
right? It is not explicitely stated in the contract but I wonder if
this
is typical or usual customary.

I am talking about over 1000 SF of ceiling with these every 8 inches
or
so, and many wall surfaces. Who is responsible to take them out?
Should
this be included as part of demo? I would think so but I thought I
asked
before I complain about it.

Thanks,

MC

Let me clarify the situation further. This is not a confrontation
between
me and the contractor. I am merely asking questions and doing homework
before I ask him. He has not refused to remove them, I just wanted to
make
sure removal of them is standard. Yes I failed to state this in the
contract, but I incorrectly assumed if sheetrock goes the nails and
screws
go, my bad.

Here are a few pictures so it is crystal clear what I am talking about:

Ceiling sheet rock removed:
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010313.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010312.jpg
http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010314.jpg

see many of the staples and screws still have bits of sheetrock with
them.

Here is a view of some of the framing with the door jamb and the rough
opening removed. Apparently some of the lumber were nailed from the
other
side of the sister studs, so we got long nails sticking out:

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w...o/P1010322.jpg

Is it reasonable to expect those to be removed?

No it is not stated in the contract, so if it's not spec'ed then it's
not
covered, then obviously I made a bad assumption and a back breaking
lesson
if I have to do it myself.

Thanks!

MC

Trying to follow the thread, you mentioned you visited the site
frequently... This would've been a perfect time to bring it up while
the workers/boss was there. Saves him time and effort.

Why would you remove the RO? (changing a wall?) I'm just a DIY person,
but those headers don't seem to have enough support. Did you go too
far in lumber removal - too expose the header nails?

BTW, protect that wire!

--
Oren

"If things get any worse, I'll have to ask you to stop helping me."- Hide
quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


The interesting thing in this thread is that no one has answered the
actual question. And that is if anyone has had similar demo work
done, if it's not specifically called out in the contract, did it
include removal of the sheetrock nails, screws, etc that are on the
stud faces?

My own oppiniion is that it should, because the nails/screws are part
of the sheetrock surface that is specd for removal in the contract.
The contract also says all debris are to be removed, which might also
be construed to mean the nails still in the studs, however I think
viewing it as part of the sheetrock surface is more appropriate.

I don't think the contractor should be required to remove the nails
left sticking out that were driven in around the door frame from the
other side. Those nails were not part of the material being removed,
but are part of the rest of the structure.


Well since I did not specific in the contract, then it lies with me. I will
try to get rid of the ones on the studs myself, and perhaps hire the drywall
people to deal with the ceiling ones.

I don't think there is a tool designed to remove exposed nails/staples
right?

MC

On 9/8/2007 1:31 PM, B King wrote:
wrote:

So, you're expecting a typical homeowner contract to be done like a
DOD contract? Hmmm, last time I checked, plenty has gone wrong there
too hasn't it?

This smartass attitude, is exactly why you end up with your tit in the
wringer. If you're going to act like a general contractor, at least read
a book or two.



Advising someone not to pay, is very poor advice, & asking for a lien on
the property. Apparently, you haven't been involved in any lien
processes. Property liens must be placed _within_ 30 days of
non-payment. This places a burden on the property owner, which in some
cases, the property owner must sue to get the lien off the property,
even after the property owner paid up.-

BS. No one should pay in full unless the work was competed to their
reasonable satisfaction. To do so, gives up all your leverage. I
would pay, but withhold an amount for the work in dispute. If they
want to try to lien, let them go right ahead. You can sue them in
small claims. Who cares if they put a lien on, unless you;re about
to sell or refinance. Bottom line, no reason to just roll over and
pay in full.

Call BS all you want. My company has placed numerous liens on properties
because of insurance has failed to make payment in full. Let me explain,
there's no "trying to lien" as you suggest. It's a simple form you fill
out.

You believe you know about liens, but in reality you don't. Yes, things
end up in court, and that's what courts are for. But, the attitude of
"I'm not paying you" may hold leverage against the kid cutting your
yard. Doesn't scare anyone who actually in the contracting business.

I'd just as soon put a lien on a problem payer, than have a secretary
make a phone call. It's that simple. And, once the problem payer pays in
full, let them sue me to get the lien off. Business is business. If you
can't handle a contract, being a homeowner, retain a lawyer for crying
out loud.

The sniveling ilk of your kind, is repulsive.

Just for grins B King what is the name of your company and where do you
do business? You know...so if anyone would want to hire you we would
know how to contact you. You /are/ a contractor aren't you?

--
Ted
I wasn't born in Texas but
I got back here as soon as I could


Always consider the source before taking advice.
--John Navas

I don't think there is a tool designed to remove exposed nails/staples
right?

A 12" pair of electricians pliers and a "twist of the wrist" works for me in
such cases.
If it weren't for the remainder of the paper and rock around the nails, you
could just bang them in flush with yer hammer.

On Sun, 16 Sep 2007 21:49:33 GMT, "Rudy"
wrote:

If it weren't for the remainder of the paper and rock around the nails, you
could just bang them in flush with yer hammer.

Hit those tiny staples with a framing hammer (notched head face) and
watch the remains fall too the floor. Pull some nails and/or hammer
some. Be done with it. If the job appalled me or I was not able to do
it myself. One laborer can!

--
Oren

"I don't have anything against work. I just figure, why deprive somebody who really loves it."