Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

Must be a hell of a washing machine. That's a 30 amp four wire. It appears
by your symbol that your outlet is 30 amp three wire. If you have a four
wire cable feeding the outlet, you can change the receptacle to match the
cord set, if not, you can probably replace the cord set with a three wire to
match the existing receptacle, although I would check with the manufacturer
to be sure. On some model appliances they require separate neutral and
ground conductors




wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

wrote:

Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag


Find the mfr label on the machine (back side or maybe underneath)
which lists the name, model # and the voltage requirement.
Post that info here.

Jim

On Jan 30, 9:33 pm, wrote:
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag


Dont change any wiring . Find the make and model number of the
applience , and check for a specification plate on the back for the
power requirement.

Post that info here.

The back of the washing machine says 15A, 240V. (while the one we are
replacing says 30A, 240V).

Thanks!

On Jan 30, 8:55 pm, wrote:
The back of the washing machine says 15A, 240V. (while the one we are
replacing says 30A, 240V).

Thanks!

The plug shown is a NEMA 14-30R 125/250V 3P, 4W Grounding Plug. What
you have described as existing means you are have either a 250V
service with no neutral and a ground or you have a 250V service with a
neutral and no ground. You need to check your existing outlet and
confirm you have Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and Ground available. If
you do it's simply a matter of buying a receptacle that is NEMA
14-30R. If you don't you need to get the proper service to the
receptacle first.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model; someone
here might be able to advise you.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral. It is
supposed to be done in the machine, but I can't see why doing it at the plug
wouldn't work; though I expect it is a code violation of some sort. Anyone
want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the machine;
aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the plug?

In article , "Toller" wrote:

Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.

No, it won't. This is *very* bad advice. Receptacles (and circuits) should be
matched to the cordset, *not* the other way around.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model; someone
here might be able to advise you.

That's somewhat better advice. Too bad you didn't stop there.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral.

Not safely, he can't. Will you PLEASE stop trying to give electrical advice
until you've figured out the difference between ground and neutral? They are
NOT the same, but you keep posting as if they are.

It is
supposed to be done in the machine,

No it's not.

but I can't see why doing it at the plug
wouldn't work;

Oh, it'll work, in the sense that the machine will operate. It just won't be
safe, that's all.

though I expect it is a code violation of some sort.

Yes, of course it's a Code violation. At least two violations. So why are you
advising him to do it?

Anyone
want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the machine;

It's not -- but who said bonding in the machine was safe? And what makes you
think that they *are* bonded in the machine?

aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the plug?

Because neutral is NOT guaranteed to be at zero potential with respect to true
earth ground, and ground IS. Cross-connecting ground and neutral can leave the
chassis of the equipment at a non-zero potential with respect to true earth
ground -- and that's a potential electrocution hazard.

That hazard is exactly why the Code now requires four-wire circuits for
120/240 devices, and explicitly prohibits doing just what you're advising him
to do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Toller"
wrote:

Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.

No, it won't. This is *very* bad advice. Receptacles (and circuits) should
be
matched to the cordset, *not* the other way around.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model;
someone
here might be able to advise you.

That's somewhat better advice. Too bad you didn't stop there.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral.

Not safely, he can't. Will you PLEASE stop trying to give electrical
advice
until you've figured out the difference between ground and neutral? They
are
NOT the same, but you keep posting as if they are.

It is
supposed to be done in the machine,

No it's not.

but I can't see why doing it at the plug
wouldn't work;

Oh, it'll work, in the sense that the machine will operate. It just won't
be
safe, that's all.

though I expect it is a code violation of some sort.

Yes, of course it's a Code violation. At least two violations. So why are
you
advising him to do it?

Anyone
want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the machine;

It's not -- but who said bonding in the machine was safe? And what makes
you
think that they *are* bonded in the machine?

aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the
plug?

Because neutral is NOT guaranteed to be at zero potential with respect to
true
earth ground, and ground IS. Cross-connecting ground and neutral can leave
the
chassis of the equipment at a non-zero potential with respect to true
earth
ground -- and that's a potential electrocution hazard.

That hazard is exactly why the Code now requires four-wire circuits for
120/240 devices, and explicitly prohibits doing just what you're advising
him
to do.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)


You were doing much better Doug. Did you decided you were cured and stop
taking the medication?

Check out page 7.
http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...RE/8578899.pdf

I guess Whirlpool doesn't know the difference between a ground and a neutral
either.

(I made the assumption that he meant dryer when the OP said washer, since I
haven't heard of 240v washers. If my assumption is incorrect then it is not
acceptable, since 250.140 does not except 240v washers.)

In article , wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:47:36 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.

No, it won't.


Why not? Dryers are usually listed for 3 wire or 4 wire cordsets. If
the manufacturer's instructions allow a 3 wire cordset it is perfectly
legal to use one.

The point was in the part that you snipped: match the receptacle, and the
circuit if necessary, to the appliance, not the other way around.

What "dryer", by the way? The OP said he bought a washer...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

In article , "Toller" wrote:
You were doing much better Doug. Did you decided you were cured and stop
taking the medication?

No, actually, *you* were doing much better, Wade -- thanks to the repeated
spankings you've received in the past for your dangerously bad electrical
advice, what you've been giving recently has been much better than it used to
be. It's been at least six months since you've written anything that was as
flagrantly, egregiously wrong as the nonsense you wrote today.

I was actually beginning to think that perhaps you'd finally learned enough of
the difference between ground and neutral to be safe, but I see now that I was
wrong.

Check out page 7.
http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...RE/8578899.pdf

OK... I did... what's your point?

I guess Whirlpool doesn't know the difference between a ground and a neutral
either.

They can tell the difference just fine, thank you very much -- as you would
realize if you had actually bothered to read _and_understand_ the page before
posting the link. Their instructions make the difference crystal clear. You're
the only one confused here.

(I made the assumption that he meant dryer when the OP said washer, since I
haven't heard of 240v washers. If my assumption is incorrect then it is not
acceptable, since 250.140 does not except 240v washers.)

I, on the other hand, made the assumption that the OP can tell the difference
between a washer and a dryer.

Furthermore, it's doubtful that, even if it *is* a dryer, the exception in
250.140 applies anyway. That article sets out four conditions which must *all*
be met for three-wire circuits to be permitted. Number 3 is

"The grounded conductor [that's the NEUTRAL, Wade, not the ground] must be
insulated [doubtful], or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a
Type SE service entrance cable [even more doubtful] and the branch circuit
originates at the service equipment."

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

That's the really puzzling part, unless it's a combination. For the most
part ranges and dryers hadn't been coming with cord sets on them, so we
decide which to use depending upon what's on the job, but lately they have
been coming with factory installed cord sets, and all I've seen have been
four wire, which to me would imply that that's what they want you to use,
but I just did a range where the outlet was three wire and the range was
four, so I contacted the mfg, who said it was OK to change the cord set, in
fact it had a paper bag taped to the under side of the range with a bonding
jumper for that purpose


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article ,
wrote:
On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 15:47:36 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for
a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.

No, it won't.


Why not? Dryers are usually listed for 3 wire or 4 wire cordsets. If
the manufacturer's instructions allow a 3 wire cordset it is perfectly
legal to use one.

The point was in the part that you snipped: match the receptacle, and the
circuit if necessary, to the appliance, not the other way around.

What "dryer", by the way? The OP said he bought a washer...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

(I made the assumption that he meant dryer when the OP said washer, since I
haven't heard of 240v washers. If my assumption is incorrect then it is not
acceptable, since 250.140 does not except 240v washers.)- Hide quoted text -
..
That's OK somebody asked, I guess because of the 240* volt rating if
it was a washer/dryer combi; because in North America it is rare
(never?) to see a 240 (230!) volt washer! Dryers, (with or without a
working neutral), yes. Washers no.
That plug reminds me of certain (230 volt) welder type plugs! Maybe
that's what somebody used to safely install it on a North American
115/230 volt domestic supply.
However beginning to suspect (type and model number not read?) that
the machine is maybe 'European' /certain Caribbean countries etc. i.e.
of a type used in parts of the world where 230 volt (probably 50
hertz) is the norm.
Also remember that in some 230 volt countries there can be no
neutral!
Both sides of the two 230 volt wires into a building could be hot.
This would occur, for example where the two wires are from two phases
of a 230 volt supply. It was occasionally but rarely used here in
North America. Haven't seen that arrangement for almost last 50
years!
Anyway, all the more important that the machine be properly grounded.
Also 'if there is a neutral' wire required to operate the machine
(maybe not if the whole machine runs on 230 volts) that it be NOT
CONNECTED to ground.
* The 240 volt label also seems to suggest it is non-North American
style machine?
I must post separately sometime about what appeared to be a standard
North American 115/230 volt cooking range/stove shipped from Australia
that came into my possession. Australia is a 230 volt 50 Hertz two
wire (one of them being AIUI a neutral), plus ground, country. It was
modified with an auto-transformer to provide a sort of phantom/
floating neutral, internal only to the stove.

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. ..
In article , "Toller"
wrote:
You were doing much better Doug. Did you decided you were cured and stop
taking the medication?

No, actually, *you* were doing much better, Wade -- thanks to the repeated
spankings you've received in the past for your dangerously bad electrical
advice, what you've been giving recently has been much better than it used
to
be. It's been at least six months since you've written anything that was
as
flagrantly, egregiously wrong as the nonsense you wrote today.

I was actually beginning to think that perhaps you'd finally learned
enough of
the difference between ground and neutral to be safe, but I see now that I
was
wrong.

Check out page 7.
http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...RE/8578899.pdf

OK... I did... what's your point?

I guess Whirlpool doesn't know the difference between a ground and a
neutral
either.

They can tell the difference just fine, thank you very much -- as you
would
realize if you had actually bothered to read _and_understand_ the page
before
posting the link. Their instructions make the difference crystal clear.
You're
the only one confused here.

(I made the assumption that he meant dryer when the OP said washer, since
I
haven't heard of 240v washers. If my assumption is incorrect then it is
not
acceptable, since 250.140 does not except 240v washers.)

I, on the other hand, made the assumption that the OP can tell the
difference
between a washer and a dryer.

Furthermore, it's doubtful that, even if it *is* a dryer, the exception in
250.140 applies anyway. That article sets out four conditions which must
*all*
be met for three-wire circuits to be permitted. Number 3 is

"The grounded conductor [that's the NEUTRAL, Wade, not the ground] must be
insulated [doubtful], or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of
a
Type SE service entrance cable [even more doubtful] and the branch circuit
originates at the service equipment."

Give it a rest Doug. If he has a 3 wire receptacle, he can put a 3 wire
cord on his dryer. Trying to prove you are right when you aren't is just
dumb.
As a matter of fact, my 3 wire receptacles are wired with SE, as are
countless others. Doubtful? Geez.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "Toller"
wrote:
You were doing much better Doug. Did you decided you were cured and stop
taking the medication?

No, actually, *you* were doing much better, Wade -- thanks to the repeated
spankings you've received in the past for your dangerously bad electrical
advice, what you've been giving recently has been much better than it used to
be. It's been at least six months since you've written anything that was as
flagrantly, egregiously wrong as the nonsense you wrote today.

I was actually beginning to think that perhaps you'd finally learned enough of
the difference between ground and neutral to be safe, but I see now that I was
wrong.

Check out page 7.
http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...RE/8578899.pdf

OK... I did... what's your point?

I guess Whirlpool doesn't know the difference between a ground and a neutral
either.

They can tell the difference just fine, thank you very much -- as you would
realize if you had actually bothered to read _and_understand_ the page before
posting the link. Their instructions make the difference crystal clear. You're
the only one confused here.

(I made the assumption that he meant dryer when the OP said washer, since I
haven't heard of 240v washers. If my assumption is incorrect then it is not
acceptable, since 250.140 does not except 240v washers.)

I, on the other hand, made the assumption that the OP can tell the difference
between a washer and a dryer.

Furthermore, it's doubtful that, even if it *is* a dryer, the exception in
250.140 applies anyway. That article sets out four conditions which must *all*
be met for three-wire circuits to be permitted. Number 3 is

"The grounded conductor [that's the NEUTRAL, Wade, not the ground] must be
insulated [doubtful], or the grounded conductor is uninsulated and part of a
Type SE service entrance cable [even more doubtful] and the branch circuit
originates at the service equipment."

Give it a rest Doug. If he has a 3 wire receptacle, he can put a 3 wire
cord on his dryer.

Sure he can -- with one that's appropriate to the voltage and amperage of
the appliance. But you don't have the first clue what the electrical
requirements of his appliance are, nor do you know what type of receptacle he
actually has.

Not knowing any of that -- and blithely advising him that it's perfectly fine
to replace the plug he has with one that fits the receptacle -- is waaaay
beyond irresponsible.

Trying to prove you are right when you aren't is just
dumb.

Take your own advice there, Wade, and stop trying to defend the incorrect
advice you gave the OP.

As a matter of fact, my 3 wire receptacles are wired with SE, as are
countless others. Doubtful? Geez.

Yeah, sure they are. Do you even know the difference between SE and NM?
Post a photo.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Yeah, sure they are. Do you even know the difference between SE and NM?
Post a photo.

Doug, I sincerely hope you just pretending. But if you are serious about
this stuff, you really should talk to your therapist as it has gone far
beyond normal bounds.

wrote:
The back of the washing machine says 15A, 240V. (while the one we are
replacing says 30A, 240V).

Thanks!


Does it say anything about 50 or 60 HZ?

In article , "Toller" wrote:

Yeah, sure they are. Do you even know the difference between SE and NM?
Post a photo.

Doug, I sincerely hope you just pretending. But if you are serious about
this stuff

Yes, I am -- I'm serious about making sure people don't get hurt by following
your advice.

Look, Wade, it's real simple: if you want me to stop pointing out to people
that you're giving out incorrect and dangerous advice... stop doing it.

And spend a little time learning the difference between neutral and ground,
huh?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Steve Barker wrote:
Hell, at this point, we don't even know what kind of appliance it is. Who
the hell even ever heard of a 220 washer???
G



Or may well be a combination:

http://tinyurl.com/yo8a8t

And there are 220 volt ones out the

http://tinyurl.com/yo4lux

It is a 220 4 wire grounded plug.

The machine probably uses 120 for motor. So needs the neutral.
Just be certain it is designed for 60 Hz.

Combo, I can understand. Washer alone 220? That's ridiculous. No call for
that.

--
Steve Barker


"Rich256" wrote in message
...
Steve Barker wrote:
Hell, at this point, we don't even know what kind of appliance it is.
Who the hell even ever heard of a 220 washer???
G



Or may well be a combination:

http://tinyurl.com/yo8a8t

And there are 220 volt ones out the

http://tinyurl.com/yo4lux

It is a 220 4 wire grounded plug.

The machine probably uses 120 for motor. So needs the neutral.
Just be certain it is designed for 60 Hz.

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Toller" wrote:


Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.


No, it won't. This is *very* bad advice. Receptacles (and circuits) should be
matched to the cordset, *not* the other way around.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model; someone
here might be able to advise you.


That's somewhat better advice. Too bad you didn't stop there.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral.


Not safely, he can't. Will you PLEASE stop trying to give electrical advice
until you've figured out the difference between ground and neutral? They are
NOT the same, but you keep posting as if they are.


It is
supposed to be done in the machine,


No it's not.


but I can't see why doing it at the plug
wouldn't work;


Oh, it'll work, in the sense that the machine will operate. It just won't be
safe, that's all.


though I expect it is a code violation of some sort.


Yes, of course it's a Code violation. At least two violations. So why are you
advising him to do it?


Anyone
want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the machine;


It's not -- but who said bonding in the machine was safe? And what makes you
think that they *are* bonded in the machine?


aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the plug?


Because neutral is NOT guaranteed to be at zero potential with respect to true
earth ground, and ground IS. Cross-connecting ground and neutral can leave the
chassis of the equipment at a non-zero potential with respect to true earth
ground -- and that's a potential electrocution hazard.

That hazard is exactly why the Code now requires four-wire circuits for
120/240 devices, and explicitly prohibits doing just what you're advising him
to do.


It does NOT explicitly prohibit anything of the sort. It used to allow
for neutral and ground to be bonded together inside the appliance just
like he says, and still permits it for appliances installed in existing
buildings with existing three wire receptacles.

ASSuming that the mfgr. of the appliance allows it, it would be
perfectly acceptable to install a three wire cord set following the
mfgrs. bonding instructions.

I agree that using the four wire cord set would be preferable, but a
three wire cord set is NOT a Code violation AFAIK.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

You are correct in what you're saying for an electric clothes dryer, but the
OP called it a washing machine and hasn't returned to amend that statement



"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Toller"
wrote:


Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.


No, it won't. This is *very* bad advice. Receptacles (and circuits)
should be matched to the cordset, *not* the other way around.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model;
someone here might be able to advise you.


That's somewhat better advice. Too bad you didn't stop there.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral.


Not safely, he can't. Will you PLEASE stop trying to give electrical
advice until you've figured out the difference between ground and
neutral? They are NOT the same, but you keep posting as if they are.


It is supposed to be done in the machine,


No it's not.


but I can't see why doing it at the plug wouldn't work;


Oh, it'll work, in the sense that the machine will operate. It just won't
be safe, that's all.


though I expect it is a code violation of some sort.


Yes, of course it's a Code violation. At least two violations. So why are
you advising him to do it?


Anyone want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the
machine;


It's not -- but who said bonding in the machine was safe? And what makes
you think that they *are* bonded in the machine?


aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the
plug?


Because neutral is NOT guaranteed to be at zero potential with respect to
true earth ground, and ground IS. Cross-connecting ground and neutral can
leave the chassis of the equipment at a non-zero potential with respect
to true earth ground -- and that's a potential electrocution hazard.

That hazard is exactly why the Code now requires four-wire circuits for
120/240 devices, and explicitly prohibits doing just what you're advising
him to do.


It does NOT explicitly prohibit anything of the sort. It used to allow
for neutral and ground to be bonded together inside the appliance just
like he says, and still permits it for appliances installed in existing
buildings with existing three wire receptacles.

ASSuming that the mfgr. of the appliance allows it, it would be perfectly
acceptable to install a three wire cord set following the mfgrs. bonding
instructions.

I agree that using the four wire cord set would be preferable, but a three
wire cord set is NOT a Code violation AFAIK.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel

Steve Barker wrote:
Combo, I can understand. Washer alone 220? That's ridiculous. No call for
that.


240 volt usually made for export or marine use. That is why I question
if it might be a 50Hz machine.

In article , "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
You are correct in what you're saying for an electric clothes dryer, but the
OP called it a washing machine and hasn't returned to amend that statement

*Three*times* the OP called it a washing machine. In two different posts.

Unlike Wade and Nate, I am assuming that the OP knows the difference.



"Nate Nagel" wrote in message
...
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , "Toller"
wrote:


Did the machine come with a manual? It should tell you how to wire for a
three wire cordset to match your receptacle.


No, it won't. This is *very* bad advice. Receptacles (and circuits)
should be matched to the cordset, *not* the other way around.

If not, try contacting the manufacturer or post the brand and model;
someone here might be able to advise you.


That's somewhat better advice. Too bad you didn't stop there.

As a last resort, you could probably just get a plug to match your
receptacle and connect both the ground and neutral to the neutral.


Not safely, he can't. Will you PLEASE stop trying to give electrical
advice until you've figured out the difference between ground and
neutral? They are NOT the same, but you keep posting as if they are.


It is supposed to be done in the machine,


No it's not.


but I can't see why doing it at the plug wouldn't work;


Oh, it'll work, in the sense that the machine will operate. It just won't
be safe, that's all.


though I expect it is a code violation of some sort.


Yes, of course it's a Code violation. At least two violations. So why are
you advising him to do it?


Anyone want to tell me why this is more dangerous than bonding in the
machine;


It's not -- but who said bonding in the machine was safe? And what makes
you think that they *are* bonded in the machine?


aside from the difficulty of getting two wires on one terminal in the
plug?


Because neutral is NOT guaranteed to be at zero potential with respect to
true earth ground, and ground IS. Cross-connecting ground and neutral can
leave the chassis of the equipment at a non-zero potential with respect
to true earth ground -- and that's a potential electrocution hazard.

That hazard is exactly why the Code now requires four-wire circuits for
120/240 devices, and explicitly prohibits doing just what you're advising
him to do.


It does NOT explicitly prohibit anything of the sort. It used to allow
for neutral and ground to be bonded together inside the appliance just
like he says, and still permits it for appliances installed in existing
buildings with existing three wire receptacles.

ASSuming that the mfgr. of the appliance allows it, it would be perfectly
acceptable to install a three wire cord set following the mfgrs. bonding
instructions.

I agree that using the four wire cord set would be preferable, but a three
wire cord set is NOT a Code violation AFAIK.

nate

--
replace "fly" with "com" to reply.
http://home.comcast.net/~njnagel



--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 18:13:28 -0600, "Steve Barker"
wrote:

Combo, I can understand. Washer alone 220? That's ridiculous. No call for
that.

It could be one made for sale in Europe, with a USA cord attached.
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Unlike biological evolution. 'intelligent design' is
not a genuine scientific theory and, therefore, has
no place in the curriculum of our nation's public
school classes." -- Ted Kennedy

On Jan 30, 7:33 pm, wrote:
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service. The purpose of
the bonding at the main service entrance is to limit the line to
ground voltage to the intended voltage, in US residential thats Line
to Neutral of 115VAC nominal. It is also to ensure that the potential
difference between ground and neutral is 0 volts. Bonding the
equipment ground and the neutral at the equipment will cause the
current flow return to the panel to split between the ground and the
neutral as it flows back to the service panel. The ground conductor
is not intended to have current flow unless there is a ground fault
and that current is only intended to open the overcurrent protection
device. Bonding the neutral and the ground together at the equipment
will in make the chassis and frame of the equipment part of the
current return path. While this may not be noticible under normal
conditions it could be catastrophic in the event of a problem. In the
event the neutral and ground return path are interrupted, and it does
happen, the neutral side at the equipment will float up to the line
voltage supplied. This would cause the potential of the equipment
case and chassis to be at 115VAC potential to ground. If an
unsuspecting person were to touch the case and a grounded surface, say
a water line, severe injury and/or a fatality would occur. Bottom
line, please do not follow the advice of the poster that advised
connecting the neutral and the ground together. If you are not 100%
sure of what you are doing contact a licensed electrician. The work
involved should take less then 1 hour. Saving $50.00 is not worth
killing a loved one.

The chassis of my BRAND NEW (june '06) dryer is connected (via a nice green
wire) to the neutral lug the THREE WIRE cord hooks to. I only know this,
because in the house we're renovating I installed a 4 wire plug ('cause
everyone seems to think this is the new fad) and I changed the cord. YES I
changed the cord myself. So, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are
saying........

--
Steve Barker


"Eric9822" wrote in message
ups.com...

Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service.

On Jan 31, 7:22 pm, "Steve Barker"
wrote:
The chassis of my BRAND NEW (june '06) dryer is connected (via a nice green
wire) to the neutral lug the THREE WIRE cord hooks to. I only know this,
because in the house we're renovating I installed a 4 wire plug ('cause
everyone seems to think this is the new fad) and I changed the cord. YES I
changed the cord myself. So, unless I'm misunderstanding what you are
saying........

--
Steve Barker

"Eric9822" wrote in message

ups.com...





Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Please post manufacturer and Model Number. I'd like to see the
manual. Definately does not sound right to me.

The neutral is not the "ungrounded " current carrying conductor.

This debate has gotten off track only because some are seeing the appliance
as a washer and some as a dryer. If it were in fact an electric dryer, NEC
allows you to connect the neutral and ground together at the machine and
connect it to an "existing" properly installed three wire outlet



"Eric9822" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jan 30, 7:33 pm, wrote:
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service. The purpose of
the bonding at the main service entrance is to limit the line to
ground voltage to the intended voltage, in US residential thats Line
to Neutral of 115VAC nominal. It is also to ensure that the potential
difference between ground and neutral is 0 volts. Bonding the
equipment ground and the neutral at the equipment will cause the
current flow return to the panel to split between the ground and the
neutral as it flows back to the service panel. The ground conductor
is not intended to have current flow unless there is a ground fault
and that current is only intended to open the overcurrent protection
device. Bonding the neutral and the ground together at the equipment
will in make the chassis and frame of the equipment part of the
current return path. While this may not be noticible under normal
conditions it could be catastrophic in the event of a problem. In the
event the neutral and ground return path are interrupted, and it does
happen, the neutral side at the equipment will float up to the line
voltage supplied. This would cause the potential of the equipment
case and chassis to be at 115VAC potential to ground. If an
unsuspecting person were to touch the case and a grounded surface, say
a water line, severe injury and/or a fatality would occur. Bottom
line, please do not follow the advice of the poster that advised
connecting the neutral and the ground together. If you are not 100%
sure of what you are doing contact a licensed electrician. The work
involved should take less then 1 hour. Saving $50.00 is not worth
killing a loved one.

This is the one previously mentioned. Mine is not this exact model, but
close. I'm not where it is right now, so I can't quote exact model numbers.

here's the link to the manual
http://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs...RE/8578899.pdf see page
7

and here is the text in particular explaining what I was trying to:

This dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire

electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is

permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire)

within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical

supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed

from the external ground conductor screw (green screw), and

secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of

the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured

under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the

terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral

conductor.


--
Steve Barker



"Eric9822" wrote in message
ups.com...
Please post manufacturer and Model Number. I'd like to see the
manual. Definately does not sound right to me.

On Jan 31, 7:32 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
The neutral is not the "ungrounded " current carrying conductor.

This debate has gotten off track only because some are seeing the appliance
as a washer and some as a dryer. If it were in fact an electric dryer, NEC
allows you to connect the neutral and ground together at the machine and
connect it to an "existing" properly installed three wire outlet

"Eric9822" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Jan 30, 7:33 pm, wrote:
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service. The purpose of
the bonding at the main service entrance is to limit the line to
ground voltage to the intended voltage, in US residential thats Line
to Neutral of 115VAC nominal. It is also to ensure that the potential
difference between ground and neutral is 0 volts. Bonding the
equipment ground and the neutral at the equipment will cause the
current flow return to the panel to split between the ground and the
neutral as it flows back to the service panel. The ground conductor
is not intended to have current flow unless there is a ground fault
and that current is only intended to open the overcurrent protection
device. Bonding the neutral and the ground together at the equipment
will in make the chassis and frame of the equipment part of the
current return path. While this may not be noticible under normal
conditions it could be catastrophic in the event of a problem. In the
event the neutral and ground return path are interrupted, and it does
happen, the neutral side at the equipment will float up to the line
voltage supplied. This would cause the potential of the equipment
case and chassis to be at 115VAC potential to ground. If an
unsuspecting person were to touch the case and a grounded surface, say
a water line, severe injury and/or a fatality would occur. Bottom
line, please do not follow the advice of the poster that advised
connecting the neutral and the ground together. If you are not 100%
sure of what you are doing contact a licensed electrician. The work
involved should take less then 1 hour. Saving $50.00 is not worth
killing a loved one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are correct. The neutral is not the ungrounded current carrying
conductor, it is the grounded current carrying conductor. It was a
typo and I thank you for clarifying it. The current code section
250.140 requires that clothes dryers be grounded in the manner
specified by section 250.134 or section 250.138, a 4 wire circuit.
There is an exception however that on an existing 3 wire circuit they
can be grounded by bonding the ground and the neutral within the
dryer. I was unaware of this since my background is primarily
industrial and I have never run across this in my limited exposure to
residential installations. The code was changed with the 1996 edition
and new installations of this type of service are prohibited. It
boggles my mind that it was ever allowed due to the safety
implications I previously posted. If a new 4 wire dryer is to be
installed on an existing 3 wire service then the 4 wire plug must be
removed and replaced with a 3 wire plug and the neutral and ground
should be bonded in the dryer (per NEC). Conversely if a 3 wire dryer
is installed on a new 4 wire service then the 3 wire plug must be
removed, a 4 wire plug installed, and the bonding jumper removed.
Personally if I were going to install a dryer in my home and found a 3
wire service I would replace it with a 4 wire service first. I know
there are people that would argue it's not necessary but that is how I
feel. I am not aware of anywhere else in the code that it is
permissable to bond the neutral and the ground downstream of the
service entrance. It has now been made non-permissable and the NFPA
has good reasons for changing the NEC. Next time I will make sure I
do a little more due diligence prior to posting.

On Feb 1, 5:03 am, "Steve Barker" wrote:
This is the one previously mentioned. Mine is not this exact model, but
close. I'm not where it is right now, so I can't quote exact model numbers.

here's the link to the manualhttp://www.whirlpool.com/assets/pdfs/product/ZUSECARE/8578899.pdf see page
7

and here is the text in particular explaining what I was trying to:

This dryer is manufactured ready to install with a 3-wire

electrical supply connection. The neutral ground wire is

permanently connected to the neutral conductor (white wire)

within the dryer. If the dryer is installed with a 4-wire electrical

supply connection, the neutral ground wire must be removed

from the external ground conductor screw (green screw), and

secured under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of

the terminal block. When the neutral ground wire is secured

under the neutral terminal (center or white wire) of the

terminal block, the dryer cabinet is isolated from the neutral

conductor.

--
Steve Barker

"Eric9822" wrote in message

ups.com...



Please post manufacturer and Model Number. I'd like to see the
manual. Definately does not sound right to me.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Please see my previous post for general information. This in
particular is acceptable per code for pre-1996 service installation
provided:

Per NEC 250.140
1) The supply circuit is 120/240=Volt single phase 3 wire (Typical
for a home)
2) The grounded conductor (Neutral) is not smaller than 10AWG copper
or 8AWG Aluminum.
3) The grounded conductor (Neutral) is insulated, or the grounded
(Neutral) is uninsulated and part of a Type SE service entrance cable
and the branch circuit originates at the service panel. (This means if
you have SE cable it cannot be fed off a subpanel)
4) Grounding contacts of receptacles furnished as part of the
equipment are bonded to the equipment.

I apologize if I alarmed you.

The exception applies to electric clothes dryers and electric cooking
equipment such as a range. The exception has a history and I'm sure all here
agree with your assessment of its dangers, as does the NEC, however in the
real world, its awfully hard to convince a customer that something they've
been using for years, with no apparent problems, is suddenly hazardous and
needs to be replaced at a cost of $$$$



"Eric9822" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Jan 31, 7:32 pm, "RBM" rbm2(remove wrote:
The neutral is not the "ungrounded " current carrying conductor.

This debate has gotten off track only because some are seeing the
appliance
as a washer and some as a dryer. If it were in fact an electric dryer,
NEC
allows you to connect the neutral and ground together at the machine and
connect it to an "existing" properly installed three wire outlet

"Eric9822" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Jan 30, 7:33 pm, wrote:
Hi,

We just bought a used washing machine and when we brought it home we
realized that it has an unusual plug that will not our outlet. You can
see it he

http://www.math.drexel.edu/~pg/plug.jpg

Will we be able to connect our washing machine to the existing outlet
(which is three prong /L\and this plug is four prong).

Very many thanks in advance!

pashag

Wow. This is a heated discussion. Normally I would stay out of it,
but some of the advice given was very unsafe so I feel compelled to
post. Under no circumstances should the equipment ground be bonded to
the neutral at the equipment. The ground and the ungrounded current
carrying conductor (Neutral) are ONLY bonded at one place and that is
at the main service entrance for residential service. The purpose of
the bonding at the main service entrance is to limit the line to
ground voltage to the intended voltage, in US residential thats Line
to Neutral of 115VAC nominal. It is also to ensure that the potential
difference between ground and neutral is 0 volts. Bonding the
equipment ground and the neutral at the equipment will cause the
current flow return to the panel to split between the ground and the
neutral as it flows back to the service panel. The ground conductor
is not intended to have current flow unless there is a ground fault
and that current is only intended to open the overcurrent protection
device. Bonding the neutral and the ground together at the equipment
will in make the chassis and frame of the equipment part of the
current return path. While this may not be noticible under normal
conditions it could be catastrophic in the event of a problem. In the
event the neutral and ground return path are interrupted, and it does
happen, the neutral side at the equipment will float up to the line
voltage supplied. This would cause the potential of the equipment
case and chassis to be at 115VAC potential to ground. If an
unsuspecting person were to touch the case and a grounded surface, say
a water line, severe injury and/or a fatality would occur. Bottom
line, please do not follow the advice of the poster that advised
connecting the neutral and the ground together. If you are not 100%
sure of what you are doing contact a licensed electrician. The work
involved should take less then 1 hour. Saving $50.00 is not worth
killing a loved one.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

You are correct. The neutral is not the ungrounded current carrying
conductor, it is the grounded current carrying conductor. It was a
typo and I thank you for clarifying it. The current code section
250.140 requires that clothes dryers be grounded in the manner
specified by section 250.134 or section 250.138, a 4 wire circuit.
There is an exception however that on an existing 3 wire circuit they
can be grounded by bonding the ground and the neutral within the
dryer. I was unaware of this since my background is primarily
industrial and I have never run across this in my limited exposure to
residential installations. The code was changed with the 1996 edition
and new installations of this type of service are prohibited. It
boggles my mind that it was ever allowed due to the safety
implications I previously posted. If a new 4 wire dryer is to be
installed on an existing 3 wire service then the 4 wire plug must be
removed and replaced with a 3 wire plug and the neutral and ground
should be bonded in the dryer (per NEC). Conversely if a 3 wire dryer
is installed on a new 4 wire service then the 3 wire plug must be
removed, a 4 wire plug installed, and the bonding jumper removed.
Personally if I were going to install a dryer in my home and found a 3
wire service I would replace it with a 4 wire service first. I know
there are people that would argue it's not necessary but that is how I
feel. I am not aware of anywhere else in the code that it is
permissable to bond the neutral and the ground downstream of the
service entrance. It has now been made non-permissable and the NFPA
has good reasons for changing the NEC. Next time I will make sure I
do a little more due diligence prior to posting.