"Matthew Maddock" wrote:

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

Tres naturel.

I've seen this system on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=6064859125
can anyone comment on how good these systems are (not necessarily
this one specifically)...

Evacuated tubes with glass-to-metal seals tend to crack over time.
http://www.sunpowersolutions.com distributes Apricus systems
with no glass-to-metal seals in France...

Where we will be, there is plenty of sun, but it also gets pretty cold
in winter too (tho still usually sunny!)

How many kWh/m^2 of sun falls on the ground and south walls? Grenoble
(where I worked) is similar to Phila, with 620 Btu/ft^2 on the ground
and 1000 walls on an average January day with a 34 F daytime temp.

... are the systems any good?

Yes, generally speaking.

will it actually work to a satisfactory degree? or will the electric
backup element always be running?

The solar hot water fraction can be close to 100% if you spend enough money.

Considering that I can buy a large French "chauffe eau" (pressurised,
highly insulated electric water tank) for around 200€ max,
is it worth it?!!

That's a cheap heat storage tank and cheap backup fuel, if rarely needed.

You might buy one and build a solar preheater (since you'll be renovating)
with a $35 fountain pump (eg Tractor Supply's #3119117) and a $60 1"x300'
pressurized plastic pipe coil in a $170 3'x8'x2' tall metal stock tank (TSC
#2177285) inside an 8'x12'x7' tall A-frame structure with a $100 8'x12'
Dynaglas polycarbonate south wall at a 30 degree tilt, which might collect
0.9x12(4x620+8cos(30)1000) = 101.6K Btu of sun and lose 6h(Tg-34)8x12/R1
= 576Tg-19.6K on an average day, where Tg (F) is the A-frame air temp.
If we collect Q Btu/day of useful heat, Tg = 210.4-Q/576.

If a 4'x12' tank cover collects 90% of the sun that enters the glazing
(91.4K Btu, with the help of 2'x12' of Big Fins on the south tank wall)
in Tw F water and loses 6h(Tw-Tg)1.5x6x12 = 648(Tw-Tg), Q = 305(352-Tw).
Tw = 140 F makes Q = 64.5K Btu (19 kWh) per day, with Tg = 98 F. It might
look like this, viewed in a fixed font:

Y

^
|
7'| . ------------------------- sun
| .
| . ru . south --
| .
| U. ru down-reflected upper ray
| . .
| . ru
| (x,y) 45 .
| . ---------- sun ru \
| . rl .8'
| L. rl ru \
| . rl down-reflected lower ray (not to scale)
|. 67.5 degrees
2'|----------------------------F .
| i | 300' pipe coil | i B
| n | | n i .
| s | | s g
| u |300 gal stock tank| u F .
| l | | l i
| | | n white 60 .
0' ------------------------------------------------------------------ X
0' 4' 8'

The north wall could be made from 4'x8' 2" double-foil polyiso boards.
.... 500 W of standard PV panels under a water duct on the lid might
produce 1000 W of electrical power...

20 PI=4*ATN(1)
30 F=4'max focal distance (ft)
40 A=PI/8'kerf angle (radians)
50 X=F/(1+1/TAN(A)/TAN(2*A))'x breakpoint (ft)
60 Y=X/TAN(A)+2'y breakpoint (ft)
70 L=SQR(X^2+(Y-2)^2)'lower segment length (ft)
80 H=8*COS(PI/6)'height (ft)
90 U=SQR((F-X)^2+(H-Y)^2)'upper segment length (ft)
100 ALD=180*(PI/2-A)/PI'lower elevation angle (degrees)
110 AUD=180*(PI/2-2*A)/PI'upper elevation angle (degrees)
120 PRINT F;L,ALD,U,AUD,2+L+U

focus -- lower segment -- -- upper segment -- total segment
(ft) length (ft) elev (deg) length (ft) elev (deg) length (ft)

4 3.061468 67.5 3.522649 45 8.584117

With lots of insulation, the 300 gallon tank could provide 300x8.33(140-60)
= 200K Btu of water heating over 5 cloudy days.

Nick

In the deep southeast Texas area that I live, in spite of 42 inches of
rain that we receive annually, A direct gain solar hot water heater
means that we spend very very little on hot water heating. Scald risk
is avoided because the water in the hot water tank is generally cooler
than the water coming down from the solar collector.

Lots of different designs out there for solar hot water, some good,
some no so good. Choose carefully and you CAN dramatically cut your
hot water costs. It would be best to look for products sold and
serviced in Europe. Cast your eyes a bit further than France as you
may find that both Germany and Italy offer decent solar products.


As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.

Robert Gammon wrote:

....
As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.


Why not?


--


Gary

www.BuildItSolar.com

"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects









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Gary wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

...
As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.


Why not?


Not in a house that you are in for only a couple of years, i.e. rent or
lease. Installing a commercial system, one that you can show hte owner
example sof and literature for is more likely to gain acceptance OUTSIDE
YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

So build it here on a home you own and so long as local building codes
allow, so long as homeowner deed restrictions will permit such a device
, and MANY now require details plans to be submitted in writing before
proceeding - we have to get shingle color approved, exterior pain colors
approved and the solar hot water system had to be approved by the HOA
BEFORE work began, then go ahead.

Just don't dream of doing this in a foreign country WITHOUT getting the
homeowner's approval AND consult with local real Estate professionals to
get their advice on the homebrew plan.

Could be a thing that gets you evicted over there, so be very very
careful if you intend to do homebrew in France (or Germany, or Italy, or
Spain, Or England.......)

Robert Gammon wrote:
Gary wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

...

As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.


Why not?


Not in a house that you are in for only a couple of years, i.e. rent or
lease. Installing a commercial system, one that you can show hte owner
example sof and literature for is more likely to gain acceptance OUTSIDE
YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

So build it here on a home you own and so long as local building codes
allow, so long as homeowner deed restrictions will permit such a device
, and MANY now require details plans to be submitted in writing before
proceeding - we have to get shingle color approved, exterior pain colors
approved and the solar hot water system had to be approved by the HOA
BEFORE work began, then go ahead.
Just don't dream of doing this in a foreign country WITHOUT getting the
homeowner's approval AND consult with local real Estate professionals to
get their advice on the homebrew plan.

Could be a thing that gets you evicted over there, so be very very
careful if you intend to do homebrew in France (or Germany, or Italy, or
Spain, Or England.......)

Hi Robert,
I guess that makes sense if he is renting, or will not be there for long -- not
sure it thats the case or not?
Places vary a lot on approvals and covenants -- sounds like you live in a very
picky place. Where I am, the covenants are not very restrictive, and no permit
is required.
Anyway, was just wondering why you thought it would not be a good idea.

I think that DIY solar water heaters can be a good way to go. The cost of
commercial systems is high -- I think a lot due to low volume production. You
can save a substantial amount of money building your own. I think that the
simple payback on some systems could be as low as a couple years -- less if
energy rates keep going up. Not to mention the greenhouse gas benefits.



Gary


--


Gary

www.BuildItSolar.com

"Build It Yourself" Solar Projects

Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I've seen this system on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=6064859125
can anyone comment on how good these systems
are (not necessarily this one specifically)...

Very over priced basically.

Where we will be, there is plenty of sun, but it also
gets prettycold in winter too (tho still usually sunny!)

... are the systems any good?

They do work, lousy value tho.

will it actually work to a satisfactory degree?

Really depends on how long you go without sun.

or will the electric backup element always be running?

No, not if its sized properly to the use of hot water.

Considering that I can buy a large French "chauffe eau"
(pressurised, highly insulated electric water tank) for
around 200€ max, is it worth it?!!

Nope.

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I've seen consistent proclamations that a solar DWH system is the best buy
for the money that can be made after pure conservation.

And those comaprisons are verses natural gas. I would expect solar verses
electric to be a very good proposition.

Why would you think that isn't true?
http://www.builditsolar.com

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
.net...

Could be a thing that gets you evicted over there, so be very very careful
if you intend to do homebrew in France (or Germany, or Italy, or Spain, Or
England.......)

I've not seen any restrictions in England.

Mary

Gary wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:
Gary wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

...

As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.


Why not?


Not in a house that you are in for only a couple of years, i.e. rent
or lease. Installing a commercial system, one that you can show hte
owner example sof and literature for is more likely to gain
acceptance OUTSIDE YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

So build it here on a home you own and so long as local building
codes allow, so long as homeowner deed restrictions will permit such
a device , and MANY now require details plans to be submitted in
writing before proceeding - we have to get shingle color approved,
exterior pain colors approved and the solar hot water system had to
be approved by the HOA BEFORE work began, then go ahead.
Just don't dream of doing this in a foreign country WITHOUT getting
the homeowner's approval AND consult with local real Estate
professionals to get their advice on the homebrew plan.

Could be a thing that gets you evicted over there, so be very very
careful if you intend to do homebrew in France (or Germany, or Italy,
or Spain, Or England.......)

Hi Robert,
I guess that makes sense if he is renting, or will not be there for
long -- not
sure it thats the case or not?
Places vary a lot on approvals and covenants -- sounds like you live
in a very
picky place. Where I am, the covenants are not very restrictive, and
no permit
is required.
Anyway, was just wondering why you thought it would not be a good idea.

Most overseas assignments like this tend to be for two years or less due
to Visa requirements (displacement of citizen workers and all that). He
did not make it clear in posting I saw in alt.home.repair as quoted by
Nick whether this was to be a relatively short term assignment, as most
of these are, or if he is, in effect, emigrating to France, intended to
set up is long term household there, and to eventually renounce US
citizenship to become a French citizen.

I think that DIY solar water heaters can be a good way to go. The
cost of
commercial systems is high -- I think a lot due to low volume
production. You
can save a substantial amount of money building your own. I think
that the
simple payback on some systems could be as low as a couple years --
less if
energy rates keep going up. Not to mention the greenhouse gas benefits.


DIY solar hot water, hmm

I see a 3-4 person system with 80 gallon heat exchanger tank (so
antifreeze soltuion flows thru the collector for only $2500 plus
installation. Yes, that is more than a gas powered hot water tank,
but will pay for itself quickly. This feeds into a standard hot water tank.

Most overseas assignments like this tend to be for two years or less due
to Visa requirements (displacement of citizen workers and all that). He
did not make it clear in posting I saw in alt.home.repair as quoted by
Nick whether this was to be a relatively short term assignment, as most
of these are, or if he is, in effect, emigrating to France, intended to
set up is long term household there, and to eventually renounce US
citizenship to become a French citizen.

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the
cross posting on my reply because I thought NG cross posting was
frowned upon! I am British, but am moving permanently to France.
Sorry - not used to NG's that are predominantly US read.

Thanks for the replies. Still don't know what to do, but will search
out more local information in France when I move there.

Matt

Robert Gammon wrote:

I see a 3-4 person system with 80 gallon heat exchanger tank (so
antifreeze soltuion flows thru the collector for only $2500 plus
installation. Yes, that is more than a gas powered hot water tank,
but will pay for itself quickly. This feeds into a standard hot water tank.

How about in the cloudy British climate ?

Graham

Matthew Maddock wrote:

Most overseas assignments like this tend to be for two years or less due
to Visa requirements (displacement of citizen workers and all that). He
did not make it clear in posting I saw in alt.home.repair as quoted by
Nick whether this was to be a relatively short term assignment, as most
of these are, or if he is, in effect, emigrating to France, intended to
set up is long term household there, and to eventually renounce US
citizenship to become a French citizen.

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the
cross posting on my reply because I thought NG cross posting was
frowned upon!

Absolutely not where it's on topic for the groups concerned.

Graham

"Matthew Maddock" wrote in
message ...

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the
cross posting on my reply because I thought NG cross posting was
frowned upon! I am British, but am moving permanently to France.
Sorry - not used to NG's that are predominantly US read.

It's disconcerting at first!

And I suspect that many US readers simply don't understand what we're saying
....

Thanks for the replies. Still don't know what to do, but will search
out more local information in France when I move there.

Enjoy! I wouldn't want to go there but a lot of my friends - and a
daughter - have done.

Mary

Matt

snip

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the
cross posting on my reply because I thought NG cross posting was
frowned upon!


Absolutely not where it's on topic for the groups concerned.

Where it is in bad form is multi posting, where the same or similar
message is posted *seperately* to multiple groups. You want to keep the
groups tied together.

Cross posting can be a good idea when you are not sure what group is
most appropriate or when the most appropriate group is very low traffic.

I'm not sure how on topic this is for alt.home.repair, I think 4 groups
is pushing it. Certainly widely crossposted posts have the most "noise"
in them because the participants don't know each other well, you wind up
with arguments about trivialities. See, I'll probably start one now!!!

Jeff

Graham

In alt.solar.thermal Matthew Maddock
wrote:

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the
cross posting on my reply because I thought NG cross posting was
frowned upon! I am British, but am moving permanently to France.
Sorry - not used to NG's that are predominantly US read.

I think almost any usenet group is dominated by the US, although solar
expertise doesn't seem to be dominanted in the same way ;-(

As in any case, you have to ignore the advice/advise you don't like ;-)

Some of the high government subsidies vary from place to place, changing
what is economically viable in one location into a losing proposition in
another. Do-it-yourself verses commercially produced is also a breaking
point. What Nick might build for a pittance is quoted at $6000 installed
commercially.

I don't know if Nick actually builds anything, though.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Robert Gammon wrote:
Gary wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:
Gary wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

...

As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.


Why not?


Not in a house that you are in for only a couple of years, i.e. rent
or lease. Installing a commercial system, one that you can show
hte owner example sof and literature for is more likely to gain
acceptance OUTSIDE YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

So build it here on a home you own and so long as local building
codes allow, so long as homeowner deed restrictions will permit such
a device , and MANY now require details plans to be submitted in
writing before proceeding - we have to get shingle color approved,
exterior pain colors approved and the solar hot water system had to
be approved by the HOA BEFORE work began, then go ahead.
Just don't dream of doing this in a foreign country WITHOUT getting
the homeowner's approval AND consult with local real Estate
professionals to get their advice on the homebrew plan.

Could be a thing that gets you evicted over there, so be very very
careful if you intend to do homebrew in France (or Germany, or
Italy, or Spain, Or England.......)

Hi Robert,
I guess that makes sense if he is renting, or will not be there for
long -- not
sure it thats the case or not?
Places vary a lot on approvals and covenants -- sounds like you live
in a very
picky place. Where I am, the covenants are not very restrictive, and
no permit
is required.
Anyway, was just wondering why you thought it would not be a good
idea.

Most overseas assignments like this tend to be for two years or less
due to Visa requirements (displacement of citizen workers and all that).

That is just plain wrong on that most claim. Only some countrys do it like that.

He did not make it clear in posting I saw in alt.home.repair as quoted by Nick whether
this was to be a relatively short term assignment, as most of these are, or if he is, in
effect, emigrating to France, intended to set up is long term household there, and to
eventually renounce US
citizenship to become a French citizen.

I think that DIY solar water heaters can be a good way to go. The cost of commercial
systems is high -- I think a lot due to low volume production. You can save a
substantial amount of money building your own. I think that the simple payback on some
systems could be as low as a couple years -- less if energy rates keep going up. Not
to mention the greenhouse gas benefits.

DIY solar hot water, hmm

I see a 3-4 person system with 80 gallon heat exchanger tank (so antifreeze soltuion
flows thru the collector for only $2500 plus
installation. Yes, that is more than a gas powered hot water tank,

A hell of a lot more in fact.

but will pay for itself quickly.

Like hell it will.

This feeds into a standard hot water tank.

Which he doesnt have, so he'd need that as well.

Matthew Maddock wrote:
Most overseas assignments like this tend to be for two years or less
due to Visa requirements (displacement of citizen workers and all
that). He did not make it clear in posting I saw in alt.home.repair
as quoted by Nick whether this was to be a relatively short term
assignment, as most of these are, or if he is, in effect, emigrating
to France, intended to set up is long term household there, and to
eventually renounce US citizenship to become a French citizen.

I think for whatever reason this was cross-posted! but I removed the cross posting on my
reply because I thought NG cross posting was frowned upon!

Only by the fools.

I am British, but am moving permanently to France.
Sorry - not used to NG's that are predominantly US read.

Thanks for the replies. Still don't know what to do, but will search out more local
information in France when I move there.

Solar is lousy value if mains power is available.

Matthew Maddock wrote:

I am British, but am moving permanently to France.

Brits are known for tolerating eccentrics, but the UK seems to have more
restrictions on looks than France, where we can invoke liberte' and egalite'
and call this kind of lawn ornament "art." French people deeply respect art,
to the point of setting aside 6% of the cost of public works for art...

Nick

Pooh Bear wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got
me thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I suspect that virtue over value is in effect here.

Then that would be completely stupid.

The frogs generate a lot of their mains power from nukes,
so it makes no sense to be minimising the use of that.

It is in fact the most sensible way to generate power today
and any solar system will waste more resources in the
construction of the solar system. In spades with a relatively
high tech approach to solar like the one being discussed.

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating system
that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I've seen consistent proclamations that a solar DWH system is the
best buy for the money that can be made after pure conservation.

Only by one eyed fools who havent got a clue about the basics.

And those comaprisons are verses natural gas. I would
expect solar verses electric to be a very good proposition.

It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

And then there's the resouces wasted with the relatively high
tech approach to solar hot water in the system being discussed.

Why would you think that isn't true?

Its mostly basic economics. The MUCH higher capital cost with
the system being discussed wont even pay for the electricity
that would otherwise be used if you have to borrow that money,
or even if you just forego the interest on the extra cash etc.

http://www.builditsolar.com

Just another rabid one eyed pack of lies on the economics.

Solar does make good economic sense with SOME situations,
most obviously with solar pool heating where the capital cost
is minimal, and the losses very high.

Solar can also make sense with air heating, particularly when its
designed into the house before construction, but its hardly ever
good value for water heating when offpeak mains power is available.

Rod Speed wrote:

Pooh Bear wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got
me thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I suspect that virtue over value is in effect here.

Then that would be completely stupid.

Yes it would indeeed, since the same amount of money spent on more effective
means of energy efficiency would reduce energy requirements by a greater amount
( with better attendant benefits on carbon load )

I should have said 'perceived virue' really.

The frogs generate a lot of their mains power from nukes,
so it makes no sense to be minimising the use of that.

It is in fact the most sensible way to generate power today
and any solar system will waste more resources in the
construction of the solar system. In spades with a relatively
high tech approach to solar like the one being discussed.

Yup. Concentrate on insulation first. I'll bet there's some room for
improvement.

Graham

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

I neglected to question the cost of energy in France. What is it?

In California, it's all about trimming the tiered usage. The DWH sellers
quote the price comparisons at "tier 5" rates. The baseline rates don't
rise, but the high tiers do. Those KWh are currently $0.51. My DWH is
propane, currently at $1.69 per gallon, up from $1.07 in 2002.

And then there's the resouces wasted with the relatively high
tech approach to solar hot water in the system being discussed.

That is the difference between Nick's coil of hose and the $6000 I was
quoted for an installed system. ;-)

Solar does make good economic sense with SOME situations,
most obviously with solar pool heating where the capital cost
is minimal, and the losses very high.

I am considering both, and neglected to keep an eye on the cost
differential, since they both seem like a good idea in my area. The solar
pool heater will cost less than any other style of heater... but it is
entirely optional, so the "savings" is harder to justify. The solar
blanket could be considered sufficient. The solar heater also fits the
usage pattern. The heat is there when the usage is desired.

Solar can also make sense with air heating, particularly when its
designed into the house before construction, but its hardly ever
good value for water heating when offpeak mains power is available.

Offpeak mains power. Another caveat. I think showers would tend to be
offpeak for most people. Some mental agility is required to do the laundry
offpeak, or maybe not, depending on the lifestyle. Offpeak KWh is still
$0.30 at the high tier usage.

Retrofitting some solar air heating is on my list. I have a few months to
think about that one. I like the Solar Sponge, and it would fit neatly
into my current home design. http://solarsponge.com

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

Robert Gammon wrote:
As interesting as Nick's ideas are, I don't think that you want to
build a home brew solar hot water heater.

I agree. If it were hot water, it would be a waste of effort to heat it.

- Logan

Rod Speed wrote:

Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I beg to differ. It's not hard to generate enough hot water to pay for a
DHW system in reduced electric costs. Pay back for my system vs.
electricity would be about 100 months. Not great, but I know many systems
running over 10 years with no capital additions, so it's workable. Since
I'm not _on_ grid, and use propane for hot water, payback is quicker.
--
derek

Pooh Bear wrote:

Robert Gammon wrote:

I see a 3-4 person system with 80 gallon heat exchanger tank (so
antifreeze soltuion flows thru the collector for only $2500 plus
installation. Yes, that is more than a gas powered hot water tank,
but will pay for itself quickly. This feeds into a standard hot water
tank.

How about in the cloudy British climate ?

It works in Nova Scotia, it'll work in Britain. That's exactly what we
have.
--
derek

Absolutely not where it's on topic for the groups concerned.

Graham


Gaham:...... you will never stay shut up....ya business or no business but
you muust poke ya ****ing nose in every one's business....... after all you
proved Ya Certified Asshole

wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

I neglected to question the cost of energy in France. What is it?

Nothing special, because they have a lot of nuke generators now.

In California, it's all about trimming the tiered usage.
The DWH sellers quote the price comparisons at "tier 5"
rates. The baseline rates don't rise, but the high tiers do.
Those KWh are currently $0.51. My DWH is propane,
currently at $1.69 per gallon, up from $1.07 in 2002.

What anyone with a clue uses is the offpeak rate for hot water.

And then there's the resouces wasted with the relatively high
tech approach to solar hot water in the system being discussed.

That is the difference between Nick's coil of hose and
the $6000 I was quoted for an installed system. ;-)

Nope, the one being discussed is a lot more high tech than Nick's.

Solar does make good economic sense with SOME
situations, most obviously with solar pool heating where
the capital cost is minimal, and the losses very high.

I am considering both, and neglected to keep an eye on the cost
differential, since they both seem like a good idea in my area.
The solar pool heater will cost less than any other style of heater...

Yeah, they're very simple, often just black plastic
tubing on a flat roof. The pump etc is already there to.

but it is entirely optional, so the "savings" is harder to justify.

It isnt hard to justify it on the longer season of viable water temps.

The solar blanket could be considered sufficient.

Maybe, but its rather more irritating to use.

The solar heater also fits the usage pattern.
The heat is there when the usage is desired.

Solar can also make sense with air heating, particularly when its
designed into the house before construction, but its hardly ever
good value for water heating when offpeak mains power is available.

Offpeak mains power. Another caveat.

Its really the only sensible way to do hot water.

I think showers would tend to be offpeak for most people.
Some mental agility is required to do the laundry offpeak,
or maybe not, depending on the lifestyle.

The water tank is heated in off peak times and used any time you like.

Offpeak KWh is still $0.30 at the high tier usage.

Plenty pay nothing like that. I only pay 5c myself.

Retrofitting some solar air heating is on my list.

Its much better to do it at the house design stage.

I have a few months to think about that one. I like the Solar Sponge, and
it would fit neatly into my current home design. http://solarsponge.com

MUCH too small for my taste. I've got 7 8'x8' myself.

Derek Broughton wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got
me thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

I beg to differ.

You have to get down on your knees to beg properly.

It's not hard to generate enough hot water to
pay for a DHW system in reduced electric costs.

Dont believe it when its calculated properly.

Pay back for my system vs. electricity would be about 100 months.

Dont believe it, show the numbers.

Not great, but I know many systems running over
10 years with no capital additions, so it's workable.

Nope, not when its calculated properly.

Since I'm not _on_ grid, and use propane
for hot water, payback is quicker.

Sure, thats why I said what I said about mains power.

Rod Speed wrote:

Derek Broughton wrote

It's not hard to generate enough hot water to
pay for a DHW system in reduced electric costs.

Dont believe it when its calculated properly.

Pay back for my system vs. electricity would be about 100 months.

Dont believe it, show the numbers.

Where are yours?

$30 MINIMUM per month for electric hot water heating at my home. $3000,
installed, for a complete solar DHW system.

Not great, but I know many systems running over
10 years with no capital additions, so it's workable.

Nope, not when its calculated properly.

Show me the numbers.

Since I'm not _on_ grid, and use propane
for hot water, payback is quicker.

Sure, thats why I said what I said about mains power.

No, you said it wasn't workable with mains power. I just said it's even
faster when off-grid.
--
derek

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

I neglected to question the cost of energy in France. What is it?

Nothing special, because they have a lot of nuke generators now.

It isn't fair to denigrate the construction costs of solar, and ignore the
construction and infrasturcture costs of a nuclear power plant.
They do require some natural resources to build and run.

That is the difference between Nick's coil of hose and
the $6000 I was quoted for an installed system. ;-)

Nope, the one being discussed is a lot more high tech than Nick's.

That's what I meant. Nick's system is closer to a viable price point, but
if you ask for a professionally installed system, it's the high tech
variety.

The solar blanket could be considered sufficient.
Maybe, but its rather more irritating to use.

I have a Feherguard cover reel. No problem at all to take off, minimal to
put back if you remember while you're still in the pool.

The solar heater also fits the usage pattern.
The heat is there when the usage is desired.

The water tank is heated in off peak times and used any time you like.

Offpeak KWh is still $0.30 at the high tier usage.

Plenty pay nothing like that. I only pay 5c myself.

So your economic comparisons are far out of line from mine.
I have a 6x better payback than you.

Retrofitting some solar air heating is on my list.

Its much better to do it at the house design stage.

Next time ;-) I have a new neighbor building a home on an empty lot. I
will be trying to give as many helpful hints as I can, as a precursor to my
own construction in the future.

I have a few months to think about that one. I like the Solar Sponge, and
it would fit neatly into my current home design. http://solarsponge.com

MUCH too small for my taste. I've got 7 8'x8' myself.

Pics? Design? I have a convenient spot to put some, and I will let
aesthetics limit the total size. Did you use a Solar Sponge style?

I also haven't decided whether to plumb the hot air into the prime living
area, or into the central heat air intake, which is conveniently nearby.

Separate plumbing seems more straightforward. I wouldn't have to
coordinate the heated air flow with the central heating run time.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

I neglected to question the cost of energy in France. What is it?

Nothing special, because they have a lot of nuke generators now.

It isn't fair to denigrate the construction costs of solar, and ignore
the construction and infrasturcture costs of a nuclear power plant.

What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

They do require some natural resources to build and run.

Yes, but nukes last a hell of a lot longer
than individual solar hot water systems do.

That is the difference between Nick's coil of hose and
the $6000 I was quoted for an installed system. ;-)

Nope, the one being discussed is a lot more high tech than Nick's.

That's what I meant. Nick's system is closer to a viable price point, but
if you ask for a professionally installed system, it's the high tech variety.

Not necessarily as high tech as the particular one being discussed tho.

The solar blanket could be considered sufficient.

Maybe, but its rather more irritating to use.

I have a Feherguard cover reel. No problem at all to take off,
minimal to put back if you remember while you're still in the pool.

Still even easier to have a completely automated system with no cover at all.

The solar heater also fits the usage pattern.
The heat is there when the usage is desired.

The water tank is heated in off peak times and used any time you like.

Offpeak KWh is still $0.30 at the high tier usage.

Plenty pay nothing like that. I only pay 5c myself.

So your economic comparisons are far out of line from mine.

You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

I have a 6x better payback than you.

With a VERY atypical offpeak power rate.

And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

Retrofitting some solar air heating is on my list.

Its much better to do it at the house design stage.

Next time ;-) I have a new neighbor building a home on an
empty lot. I will be trying to give as many helpful hints as
I can, as a precursor to my own construction in the future.

I have a few months to think about that one. I like
the Solar Sponge, and it would fit neatly into my
current home design. http://solarsponge.com

MUCH too small for my taste. I've got 7 8'x8' myself.

Pics? Design?

Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

There's another 6 on the south side, only the bathrooms
and toilets have normal windows, all rooms have full outside
access with those patio doors. The smallest bedrooms have
one of them, the largest bedroom has two. The biggest main
room has 5 and the smallest main room has 3.

That gives a very pleasant outside/inside effect when the
outside isnt too hot in summer, and there is a full run of
trees all along the south side. That environment is much
cooler in summer when say I come home from shopping.

In winter I bask in the sun thru those big doors,
in the biggest main room most of the daytime.

6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

I have a convenient spot to put some, and I will let aesthetics
limit the total size. Did you use a Solar Sponge style?

Nope, nothing like it. Completely integrated into the house design, like I said.

I also haven't decided whether to plumb the hot air into the prime living
area, or into the central heat air intake, which is conveniently nearby.

Separate plumbing seems more straightforward. I wouldn't have to
coordinate the heated air flow with the central heating run time.

Derek Broughton wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Derek Broughton wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Matthew Maddock wrote

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got
me thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

They're hardly ever good value where mains power is available.

It's not hard to generate enough hot water to
pay for a DHW system in reduced electric costs.

Dont believe it when its calculated properly.

Pay back for my system vs. electricity would be about 100 months.

Dont believe it, show the numbers.

Where are yours?

$30 MINIMUM per month for electric hot water heating at my home.

You need that anyway, you cant use pure solar almost anywhere.

$3000, installed, for a complete solar DHW system.

I just replaced my storage hot water system after 30 years for $500

Not great, but I know many systems running over
10 years with no capital additions, so it's workable.

Nope, not when its calculated properly.

Show me the numbers.

You didnt.

Since I'm not _on_ grid, and use propane
for hot water, payback is quicker.

Sure, thats why I said what I said about mains power.

No, you said it wasn't workable with mains power.

No I didnt. I said it wasnt usually GOOD VALUE.

I just said it's even faster when off-grid.

You also claimed that its viable on grid too.

wrote in message
...

"Matthew Maddock" wrote:

We are moving to France in a few months to a house that needs
renovating etc. There is no existing hot water system, so that got me
thinking that instead of putting in the usual electric water heating
system that is common in France, a solar system might be nice.

Tres naturel.

I've seen this system on eBay
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...tem=6064859125
can anyone comment on how good these systems are (not necessarily
this one specifically)...

Evacuated tubes with glass-to-metal seals tend to crack over time.
http://www.sunpowersolutions.com distributes Apricus systems
with no glass-to-metal seals in France...

Where we will be, there is plenty of sun, but it also gets pretty cold
in winter too (tho still usually sunny!)

How many kWh/m^2 of sun falls on the ground and south walls? Grenoble
(where I worked) is similar to Phila, with 620 Btu/ft^2 on the ground
and 1000 walls on an average January day with a 34 F daytime temp.

... are the systems any good?

Yes, generally speaking.

will it actually work to a satisfactory degree? or will the electric
backup element always be running?

The solar hot water fraction can be close to 100% if you spend enough
money.

Considering that I can buy a large French "chauffe eau" (pressurised,
highly insulated electric water tank) for around 200? max,
is it worth it?!!

That's a cheap heat storage tank and cheap backup fuel, if rarely needed.

You might buy one and build a solar preheater (since you'll be renovating)
with a $35 fountain pump (eg Tractor Supply's #3119117) and a $60 1"x300'
pressurized plastic pipe coil in a $170 3'x8'x2' tall metal stock tank
(TSC
#2177285) inside an 8'x12'x7' tall A-frame structure with a $100 8'x12'
Dynaglas polycarbonate south wall at a 30 degree tilt, which might collect
0.9x12(4x620+8cos(30)1000) = 101.6K Btu of sun and lose 6h(Tg-34)8x12/R1
= 576Tg-19.6K on an average day, where Tg (F) is the A-frame air temp.
If we collect Q Btu/day of useful heat, Tg = 210.4-Q/576.

If a 4'x12' tank cover collects 90% of the sun that enters the glazing
(91.4K Btu, with the help of 2'x12' of Big Fins on the south tank wall)
in Tw F water and loses 6h(Tw-Tg)1.5x6x12 = 648(Tw-Tg), Q = 305(352-Tw).
Tw = 140 F makes Q = 64.5K Btu (19 kWh) per day, with Tg = 98 F. It might
look like this, viewed in a fixed font:

Y

^
|
7'| . ------------------------- sun
| .
| . ru . south --
| .
| U. ru down-reflected upper ray
| . .
| . ru
| (x,y) 45 .
| . ---------- sun ru \
| . rl .8'
| L. rl ru \
| . rl down-reflected lower ray (not to scale)
|. 67.5 degrees
2'|----------------------------F .
| i | 300' pipe coil | i B
| n | | n i .
| s | | s g
| u |300 gal stock tank| u F .
| l | | l i
| | | n white 60 .
0' ------------------------------------------------------------------ X
0' 4' 8'

The north wall could be made from 4'x8' 2" double-foil polyiso boards.
... 500 W of standard PV panels under a water duct on the lid might
produce 1000 W of electrical power...

20 PI=4*ATN(1)
30 F=4'max focal distance (ft)
40 A=PI/8'kerf angle (radians)
50 X=F/(1+1/TAN(A)/TAN(2*A))'x breakpoint (ft)
60 Y=X/TAN(A)+2'y breakpoint (ft)
70 L=SQR(X^2+(Y-2)^2)'lower segment length (ft)
80 H=8*COS(PI/6)'height (ft)
90 U=SQR((F-X)^2+(H-Y)^2)'upper segment length (ft)
100 ALD=180*(PI/2-A)/PI'lower elevation angle (degrees)
110 AUD=180*(PI/2-2*A)/PI'upper elevation angle (degrees)
120 PRINT F;L,ALD,U,AUD,2+L+U

focus -- lower segment -- -- upper segment -- total segment
(ft) length (ft) elev (deg) length (ft) elev (deg) length (ft)

4 3.061468 67.5 3.522649 45 8.584117

With lots of insulation, the 300 gallon tank could provide
300x8.33(140-60)
= 200K Btu of water heating over 5 cloudy days.

Nick

how about the old reliable "batch" or "bread box" style solar heater?
http://www.motherearthnews.com/top_a...r_Water_Heater
http://tva.apogee.net/res/rewhsba.asp
http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green...r_Water_Heater
http://www.solarnet.org/SolarHWH.htm
http://rise.org.au/reslab/resfiles/lowtemp/text.html

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

Nor do I have any input as to whether various rebates and incentives are
the right way for the community at large to go. I can only look at the
impact that the programs have on my situation.

You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

http://www.pge.com/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls
The baseline rate is only $0.08. That rate is very stable, but also is not
very much energy per month, varying by the season and location.

And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

As always. The local conditions for that person are all that matters.
Solar insolation, utility rates, Tax laws, appraisal patterns, cost of
labor, cost of materials, construction codes, etc. It's hard enough to
make comparisons across different utilities in the same state, much less
the 50 states here, or to a different country.

Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

I saw a house recently built that looks like all doors on the long side. I
thought that was for the view. I hadn't pondered the orientation. A look
at Google Earth makes me think all those doors are Southwest exposure, but
that should be hot in the summertime, without deciduous tree cover.

6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

That is sorely lacking at my house. Stubby eaves at a steep angle, so I
can't even add additional cover in a pleasing fashion.

I might have a closer look at that house with no trees. Maybe it has long
shallow eves.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

wrote in message
...
In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:
What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

Nor do I have any input as to whether various rebates and incentives are
the right way for the community at large to go. I can only look at the
impact that the programs have on my situation.

You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

http://www.pge.com/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls
The baseline rate is only $0.08. That rate is very stable, but also is
not
very much energy per month, varying by the season and location.

And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

As always. The local conditions for that person are all that matters.
Solar insolation, utility rates, Tax laws, appraisal patterns, cost of
labor, cost of materials, construction codes, etc. It's hard enough to
make comparisons across different utilities in the same state, much less
the 50 states here, or to a different country.

Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

I saw a house recently built that looks like all doors on the long side.
I
thought that was for the view. I hadn't pondered the orientation. A look
at Google Earth makes me think all those doors are Southwest exposure, but
that should be hot in the summertime, without deciduous tree cover.

6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

That is sorely lacking at my house. Stubby eaves at a steep angle, so I
can't even add additional cover in a pleasing fashion.

I might have a closer look at that house with no trees. Maybe it has long
shallow eves.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5
In the summer the sun is more directly overhead so the extra glass on the
south side should not make the house hot.in the winter the sun is lower on
the horizon so it shines in through the glass more.

wrote:
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote
wrote
Rod Speed wrote

It isnt. Largely because the MUCH higher capital cost cant
be justified economically. In spades in France where the
bulk of electrical power comes from nukes which dont even
consume natural resources in the generation of the power.

I neglected to question the cost of energy in France. What is it?

Nothing special, because they have a lot of nuke generators now.

It isn't fair to denigrate the construction costs of solar, and ignore
the construction and infrasturcture costs of a nuclear power plant.

What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

Nor do I have any input as to whether various rebates and incentives
are the right way for the community at large to go. I can only look
at the impact that the programs have on my situation.

Those are still the cost to the individual.

You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

http://www.pge.com/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls

Like I thought, that 30c is utterly bogus.

The baseline rate is only $0.08. That rate is very stable, but also
is not very much energy per month, varying by the season and location.

Plenty for off peak hot water.

And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

As always. The local conditions for that person are all that matters.

Yes, and FOR THE OP, ITS HIS ELECTRICITY COST THAT MATTERS.

Not yours or mine.

Solar insolation, utility rates, Tax laws, appraisal patterns, cost of
labor, cost of materials, construction codes, etc. It's hard enough
to make comparisons across different utilities in the same state,
much less the 50 states here, or to a different country.

And I said that FOR THE OP, ITS UNLIKELY TO
BE ECONOMICALLY VIABLE TO GO SOLAR.

Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

I saw a house recently built that looks like all doors on the long side.

Yeah, thats pretty much what mine is at the E and W ends of the
N wall. There's a section in the middle which has normal wall, with
two normal windows in the kitchen area of the two main rooms,
and the N bathroom, but its mostly glass otherwise.

I thought that was for the view.

Mine is that on the S side, that side has a public park.

I hadn't pondered the orientation.

A look at Google Earth makes me think all those
doors are Southwest exposure, but that should be
hot in the summertime, without deciduous tree cover.

Yeah, I have no windows at all on the E and W sides.

6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

That is sorely lacking at my house. Stubby eaves at a steep
angle, so I can't even add additional cover in a pleasing fashion.

Yeah, mine's a flat roof.

I might have a closer look at that house with
no trees. Maybe it has long shallow eves.

digitalmaster wrote:
wrote in message
...

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:

What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

Nor do I have any input as to whether various rebates and incentives are
the right way for the community at large to go. I can only look at the
impact that the programs have on my situation.


You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

http://www.pge.com/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls
The baseline rate is only $0.08. That rate is very stable, but also is
not
very much energy per month, varying by the season and location.


And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

As always. The local conditions for that person are all that matters.
Solar insolation, utility rates, Tax laws, appraisal patterns, cost of
labor, cost of materials, construction codes, etc. It's hard enough to
make comparisons across different utilities in the same state, much less
the 50 states here, or to a different country.


Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

I saw a house recently built that looks like all doors on the long side.
I
thought that was for the view. I hadn't pondered the orientation. A look
at Google Earth makes me think all those doors are Southwest exposure, but
that should be hot in the summertime, without deciduous tree cover.


6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

That is sorely lacking at my house. Stubby eaves at a steep angle, so I
can't even add additional cover in a pleasing fashion.

I might have a closer look at that house with no trees. Maybe it has long
shallow eves.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

In the summer the sun is more directly overhead so the extra glass on the
south side should not make the house hot.in the winter the sun is lower on
the horizon so it shines in through the glass more.



The rub to this argument is - more HOURS of daylight in the summer.
This fact coupled with higher outside temps, WILL MAKE A HOUSE WITH
SOUTH FACING WINDOWS WARMER IN THE SUMMERTIME THAN A HOUSE WITH NO SOUTH
FACING WINDOWS!!!

digitalmaster wrote:
wrote in message
...

In alt.solar.thermal Rod Speed wrote:

What matters is the cost TO THE INDIVIDUAL.

The individual considering which way to go with hot water
gets no say on what the state chooses to do with nukes.

Nor do I have any input as to whether various rebates and incentives are
the right way for the community at large to go. I can only look at the
impact that the programs have on my situation.


You sure you're paying 30c for offpeak ?

http://www.pge.com/rates/tariffs/ResTOUCurrent.xls
The baseline rate is only $0.08. That rate is very stable, but also is
not
very much energy per month, varying by the season and location.


And what matters is the OP's offpeak power rate, not yours or mine.

As always. The local conditions for that person are all that matters.
Solar insolation, utility rates, Tax laws, appraisal patterns, cost of
labor, cost of materials, construction codes, etc. It's hard enough to
make comparisons across different utilities in the same state, much less
the 50 states here, or to a different country.


Mine is completely integrated into the house design,
7 8'x8' patio doors on the north side of the house which
is 100' running East/West. I'm in the southern hemisphere.

I saw a house recently built that looks like all doors on the long side.
I
thought that was for the view. I hadn't pondered the orientation. A look
at Google Earth makes me think all those doors are Southwest exposure, but
that should be hot in the summertime, without deciduous tree cover.


6' eaves all down the N side, calculated with the sun angles
to let all the sun in in winter and none in the summer.

That is sorely lacking at my house. Stubby eaves at a steep angle, so I
can't even add additional cover in a pleasing fashion.

I might have a closer look at that house with no trees. Maybe it has long
shallow eves.

--
---
Clarence A Dold - Hidden Valley Lake, CA, USA GPS: 38.8,-122.5

In the summer the sun is more directly overhead so the extra glass on the
south side should not make the house hot.in the winter the sun is lower on
the horizon so it shines in through the glass more.



The rub to this argument is - more HOURS of daylight in the summer.
This fact coupled with higher outside temps, WILL MAKE A HOUSE WITH
SOUTH FACING WINDOWS WARMER IN THE SUMMERTIME THAN A HOUSE WITH NO SOUTH
FACING WINDOWS!!!

Robert Gammon wrote:

digitalmaster wrote:
wrote in message

In the summer the sun is more directly overhead so the extra glass on the
south side should not make the house hot.in the winter the sun is lower
on the horizon so it shines in through the glass more.

The rub to this argument is - more HOURS of daylight in the summer.
This fact coupled with higher outside temps, WILL MAKE A HOUSE WITH
SOUTH FACING WINDOWS WARMER IN THE SUMMERTIME THAN A HOUSE WITH NO SOUTH
FACING WINDOWS!!!

Please don't yell. It's completely unnecessary. It's not hard to make the
south facing windows work. You need overhangs, as pointed out, but the
angle of incidence, along with the right kind of glazing makes it entirely
possible to restrict heat gain. In Northern latitudes, what may be much
worse for causing overheating is large glass expanses in West windows.
West windows get little to no heat gain in Winter, but can't be shaded by
overhangs in Summer. I've got lots of south window, but it never gets hot
in the living room until the sun starts to set.
--
derek

"Derek Broughton" wrote in message
...

Please don't yell. It's completely unnecessary. It's not hard to make
the
south facing windows work. You need overhangs, as pointed out, but the
angle of incidence, along with the right kind of glazing makes it entirely
possible to restrict heat gain.

The problem with that is that it cuts down light too. I prefer to shade with
curtains, which are movable.

Mary