A water heater is in the garage about 6 feet from a window.

There is a 3 wire cable to the water heater +120 -120 and a bare wire
grounded to the frame. No separate white neutral.

A generator sits at window level with ther exhasust extended though a
'dryer vent' type arrangement and is available for emergency power
within a few minutes.

The generator frame is grounded to the outside ground in the earth.

I was thinking of using a 20 foot 3 wire cable to the dryer receptacle
like we did during Hurricane Jeanne but I considered the following:


MAIN DISCONNECT IS OFF!! it is off, it is OFF!!!! (no way is it ON!)

One hot wire going from the panel to the water heater goes to the
center terminal of SPDT switch. The other panel wire goes to the water
heater and to one generator wire.

Water heater on one end of the SPDT and generator on the other.

1 Using the SPDT we break the wire to the heating elements and
switch it to the generator.

2 I use the generator to back feed the panel 240 VAC.

3 If I wish to heat water at 120VAC I connect the open water heater
wire to ground.


Like this:

Generator ---------------------------------: (generator lead A
permanently connected to water heater wire #1)

Panel -120 ----------------:-water heater wire #1 connected


Panel +120--------- --\ ------------ water heater wire #2 open
Control Switch SPDT \-------- (generator lead B connected)

Panel ground_______________Generator Ground and generator Neutral

Switch in GENERATOR Mode feeding Panel 240 VAC
When switch is thrown, generator B is open and watewr heater wire #2 is
connected to panel (normal power on position)

Should I wish 120 VAC heating with GENERATOR, short water heater wire
#2 to ground wire (no neutral available in cable).

Just 2 single pole switches and we would be on backup generator with a
choice of slow (1/4 power) hot water.


NOTE* The Generator cable has a 4 conductor male plug and it is not
plugged in until the Main Breaker is OFF!

The cable will be plugged into a dummy receptacle until just before
using because one lead is 'hot'.

Any negative consequences to the above wiring idea?

wrote in message
oups.com...
A water heater is in the garage about 6 feet from a window.

snip

A generator sits at window level with ther exhasust extended though a
'dryer vent' type arrangement and is available for emergency power
within a few minutes.

Any negative consequences to the above wiring idea?
http://www.redcross.org/services/dis...0_565_,00.html

Under no circumstances should portable generators be used indoors, including
inside a garage, carport, basement, crawlspace, or other enclosed or
partially-enclosed area, even with ventilation. Opening doors and windows or
using fans will not prevent CO buildup in the home. The CO from generators
can rapidly lead to full incapacitation and death, but CO can't be seen or
smelled. Even if you cannot smell exhaust fumes, you may still be exposed to
CO. If you start to feel sick, dizzy, or weak while using a generator, get
to fresh air RIGHT AWAY - DO NOT DELAY.

Because you may have windows open to get fresh air while the power is out,
be sure to place the generator away from windows, doors, and vents that
could allow CO to come indoors

Spud,

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Like a window A/C installation there is no, I repeat, NO exhaust fumes
inside the garage.
Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

That is a loose connection and a little exhaust can comwe back into the
garage. Not in my situation.

BTW My last condo had a humongeous diesel generator for emergency power
located inside our 21 story building. Our unit was next to it. It was
exhausted to the outside. You have to know what you are doing to be
safe.


Generically, you are correct. BUT! Under the conditions that I
described, not a problem.

I also use a CO2 detector.

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Homemade welds and seals, sure, that's safe....

Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

Which often have a good bit of OTHER air circulation equipment. Unlike a
residential garage that typically has NONE.

BTW My last condo had a humongeous diesel generator for emergency power
located inside our 21 story building. Our unit was next to it. It was
exhausted to the outside. You have to know what you are doing to be
safe.

A professionally installed and inspected setup is one thing, your's isn't.
You can't compare them.

Generically, you are correct. BUT! Under the conditions that I
described, not a problem.

Sez who?

I also use a CO2 detector.

Which will do no good whatsoever. You need to be monitoring for carbon
MONOXIDE (CO), not simply carbon DIOXIDE (co2). Likewise they need to be
mounted properly and in locations best suited for safety. One in the
bedroom is a LOT more valuable in than one mounted too low in the garage.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Spud,

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

There are ways to protect fools from themselves, but there's no help for
DAMN fools.

A generator sits at window level with ther exhasust extended though a
'dryer vent' type arrangement and is available for emergency power
within a few minutes.

I've been tempted to do that. I just leave it in my garage with a front and
rear door open a foot. Yes, I know how dangerous it is, but it doesn't seem
to bother the CO detector.

The generator frame is grounded to the outside ground in the earth.

Is your generator ground connected to the frame? If so, you don't want to
ground the frame again. And if it isn't there is no particular reason to
gound the frame.

I was thinking of using a 20 foot 3 wire cable to the dryer receptacle
like we did during Hurricane Jeanne but I considered the following:


MAIN DISCONNECT IS OFF!! it is off, it is OFF!!!! (no way is it ON!)

One hot wire going from the panel to the water heater goes to the
Any negative consequences to the above wiring idea?

Well, it appears (as well as I could understand it) to be okay, aside from
being illegal and dangerous, but why do something so complicated? What are
you trying to accomplish?

The same switch that connects generator to water heater must
also disconnect AC mains from water heater. Switch must be
'break before make' type. It does not matter how many times
you say "it is off". Humans have a bad tendency to always
make the exception occur. A design must be human proof.

Design must be 'not mechanically possible' to ever connect
generator until heater has been disconnected from AC mains.
Switching equipment is simple to obtain which is just another
reason why the heater must always disconnect from AC mains
before generator makes a connection. Any residential
procedure that calls for human knowledge is unnecessarily and
unacceptfully dangerous.

If anyone ever makes a mistake (connects AC mains and
generator together), then 100% blame belongs on the human who
built that mistake. If anyone can make a mistake, that human
who installed the dangerous system should be hung by his balls
- this last sentence only my opinion. All other sentences are
required by both code and common sense.

wrote:
A water heater is in the garage about 6 feet from a window.

There is a 3 wire cable to the water heater +120 -120 and a bare wire
grounded to the frame. No separate white neutral.

A generator sits at window level with ther exhasust extended though a
'dryer vent' type arrangement and is available for emergency power
within a few minutes.

The generator frame is grounded to the outside ground in the earth.

I was thinking of using a 20 foot 3 wire cable to the dryer receptacle
like we did during Hurricane Jeanne but I considered the following:

MAIN DISCONNECT IS OFF!! it is off, it is OFF!!!! (no way is it ON!)

One hot wire going from the panel to the water heater goes to the
center terminal of SPDT switch. The other panel wire goes to the water
heater and to one generator wire.

Water heater on one end of the SPDT and generator on the other.

1 Using the SPDT we break the wire to the heating elements and
switch it to the generator.

2 I use the generator to back feed the panel 240 VAC.

3 If I wish to heat water at 120VAC I connect the open water heater
wire to ground.

Like this:

Generator ---------------------------------: (generator lead A
permanently connected to water heater wire #1)

Panel -120 ----------------:-water heater wire #1 connected

Panel +120--------- --\ ------------ water heater wire #2 open
Control Switch SPDT \-------- (generator lead B connected)

Panel ground_______________Generator Ground and generator Neutral

Switch in GENERATOR Mode feeding Panel 240 VAC
When switch is thrown, generator B is open and watewr heater wire #2 is
connected to panel (normal power on position)

Should I wish 120 VAC heating with GENERATOR, short water heater wire
#2 to ground wire (no neutral available in cable).

Just 2 single pole switches and we would be on backup generator with a
choice of slow (1/4 power) hot water.

NOTE* The Generator cable has a 4 conductor male plug and it is not
plugged in until the Main Breaker is OFF!

The cable will be plugged into a dummy receptacle until just before
using because one lead is 'hot'.

Any negative consequences to the above wiring idea?

Toller,

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I meant CO detector, but couldn't be give thethe benfit of the doubt.

If you lived therough Francism Jeanne, and wilma, you would understand
what we are attempting to accomplish in SE FL.

I want the quickest, , quietest, cheapest, longest running, genrator
hookup for standy for minimum power and which requires minimum effort
to get running.

First the generator garage issue: My welds are strong enough to trust
my life on when I ride my recumbent trikes and other vehicles that I
have built over the years. Also, my $100 elevator in daily use for
over 3 years was also condemned by the usual Google lurkers who never
seem to trust their own abilities to build anything that their life
would depend upon. What happened to the pioneer spirit? "Leave it to
the professionals" is their motto. True in many cases but not in all
cases. Why have a Forum on Home repair? Just use the Yellow pages and
hire a pro.




There are 2 closed interior doors separating the garage from the
house. The Garage door will be partially open for ventillation and
for oxygen for the generator.

The genertator is a 3000-3500 watt 6.5 hp model. Modest output,
enough for a refridge and a few lights etc.

Complication is not the case. Just the opposite. A short 3 wire cable
from the generator to a junction box and 2 switches.

Throw one switch for generator power to the entire house.

Throw the other switch for 120 VAC hot water.

What could be simpler with fewer wires or switches?

The 4th crooked lead in the generator receptacle does not measure
'short' to the generator case not to any other terminal.

Ignoramus5455 is citing basic engineering conceps. Not if.
When failure happens, will the system still not let CO enter
the building? Why not just put exhaust pipes inside a
vehicle? Because when pipes crack, there is another
protection system to keep vehicle occupants from CO
poisoning. Systems designed for human safety must always be
redundant.

That also applies to how the generator connects to heater as
cited in another post. No redundancy? Then there is this
sentence about where balls should be located.

Ignoramus5455 wrote:
Stu, beware that there are many issues involved with piping exhaust
through welded pipes. Vibration and high temperature and potentially
corrosive exhaust gases, for example.

The consequence of failure of your exhaust system can be lethal and
quick. A CO (not CO2 as you said) warning system is a good thing, but
is not bulletproof and batteries often die.

Exhaust pipes can be welded and generators are often installed
indoors, but beware of unexpected issues, if you are not a
professional installer of generators.

Meanwhile, where is the all so necessary safety ground.
Earth ground rod is not a safety ground.

w_tom wrote:
The same switch that connects generator to water heater must
also disconnect AC mains from water heater. Switch must be
'break before make' type. It does not matter how many times
you say "it is off". Humans have a bad tendency to always
make the exception occur. A design must be human proof.

Design must be 'not mechanically possible' to ever connect
generator until heater has been disconnected from AC mains. ...

Safety Ground at the panel box wired to Neutral.

First the generator garage issue: My welds are strong enough to trust
my life on when I ride my recumbent trikes and other vehicles that I
have built over the years.

I'd feel better about it if you have a flexible section near the generator.
If your construction is entirely rigid then forget it, it will eventually
break no matter how good your welds are unless it's *extremely* short. Is
it a threaded connection into the engine? That's a good place for a break
if the vibrating engine is rigidly connected to a lengthy pipe. That condo
emergency genset you mention...if it was indoors it surely had some sort of
flexible pipe connection. Does your engine vent the crankcase back to the
intake? Finally, a decent ventilation fan either bringing in fresh air or
exhausting inside air, with either a vent or window that will be open
during generator runs to allow for circulation is a bare minimum. Then
maybe.

Is this gasoline or NG? Where is the tank vented? What about spills on
refueling? So much simpler and safer just to take the thing outside. Then
you can tell everyone about how you will hook it up via the A/C disconnect
box.

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:50:19 -0500, "wkearney99"
wrote:

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Homemade welds and seals, sure, that's safe....

Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

Which often have a good bit of OTHER air circulation equipment.

I don't see how that would make a difference. The engine sucks in
air and blows iit out the rear, and out the garage door through the
hose. How is any other air circuilation equipment necessary?

Unlike a
residential garage that typically has NONE.
.....
I also use a CO2 detector.

Which will do no good whatsoever. You need to be monitoring for carbon
MONOXIDE (CO), not simply carbon DIOXIDE (co2).

Of course that is what he meant. People mistype on the net about 10
or 20 times as often as they do in their other correspondence.

Likewise they need to be
mounted properly and in locations best suited for safety. One in the
bedroom is a LOT more valuable in than one mounted too low in the garage.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Big system. How many KW? Can you talk over it? How much did the
entire project cost.

My generator is 67 db and it cost $269.95 at Pep Boys is at the other
end of the bell curve..

I can talk over it when it is running. It sits on tubber shock mounts
and hardly vibrates.

I consider it disposeable and intend to use it less than 100 hours per
year.

Your gen can suck my gen in and spit it out the other end.

"wkearney99" wrote in message
...
With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Homemade welds and seals, sure, that's safe....


The internet is amazing. You are able to judge from a newsgroup posting the
the installaion is no good. You are able to discern his design, his welding
ability, his safety precuations. I am in awe!

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 04:08:27 GMT, Ignoramus5455
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:00:45 -0500, mm wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:50:19 -0500, "wkearney99"
wrote:

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Homemade welds and seals, sure, that's safe....

Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

Which often have a good bit of OTHER air circulation equipment.

I don't see how that would make a difference. The engine sucks in
air and blows iit out the rear, and out the garage door through the
hose. How is any other air circuilation equipment necessary?

I mean:How is it necessary to exhaust the poisonous exhaust gases? In
a shop where they work on autos.

Because the generator produces other heat besides that which is
exhausted through the exhaust.
The equation roughly is
Generator power in kW = Exhaust heat carried = Cooling air warmed.
In other words, 33% of energy consumed (burned fuel) is electricity,
33% is exhaust heat, and 33% is cooling heat. It needs to be removed
from the garage. Percentages are approximate.

Heat may be bad at times, but it's not poisonous. The topic was CO
poisoning.

i


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

Where does generator connect to safety ground? For example,
assume the generator has a circuit breaker. Assume one side
of 240 volts shorts inside heater. Now heater frame is
electrically hot. Where is the conductive circuit that goes
out of generator, through short to water heater frame, then
(and this is the missing part) back to generator on either
safety ground or other side of 240? Without that direct
circuit, then circuit breaker / fuse may not trip/blow.
Demonstrated is why all building safety grounds (ie one in
breaker box) must connect to safety ground on generator by a
dedicated safety ground wire of sufficient gauge.

wrote:
Safety Ground at the panel box wired to Neutral.

wrote:

... my $100 elevator in daily use for over 3 years was also condemned by
the usual Google lurkers

Hey, tell us more. I've always thought stairs were a waste of money and
floorspace, compared to a DC winch or a trapeze or a bosun's chair with
a counterweight.

Nick

Spud wrote:

Under no circumstances should portable generators be used indoors, including
inside a garage, carport, basement, crawlspace, or other enclosed or
partially-enclosed area, even with ventilation.

Nonono. Never use a generator outdoors. That wastes about 80% of the fuel's
heating value. You might run the exhaust from a $900 1500 W Honda generator
with a $2K grid-tie inverter into the top of a $200 gas water heater that
preheats water for the usual water heater, then outdoors, all inside a small
plastic film room in the basement, depressurized by the combustion airflow,
with a CO detector outside the room.

Nick

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 00:11:19 -0500, mm
wrote:

On Thu, 01 Dec 2005 04:08:27 GMT, Ignoramus5455
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 23:00:45 -0500, mm wrote:
On Wed, 30 Nov 2005 19:50:19 -0500, "wkearney99"
wrote:

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Homemade welds and seals, sure, that's safe....

Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

Which often have a good bit of OTHER air circulation equipment.

I don't see how that would make a difference. The engine sucks in
air and blows iit out the rear, and out the garage door through the
hose. How is any other air circuilation equipment necessary?

I mean:How is it (**) necessary to exhaust the poisonous exhaust gases? In
a shop where they work on autos.

This could easily be read entirely differently from what I meant. By
"it" I mean, other air circulation equipment. How is other air
circulation equipment necessary to exhaust the car's poisonous exhoust
gases?

Because the generator produces other heat besides that which is
exhausted through the exhaust.
The equation roughly is
Generator power in kW = Exhaust heat carried = Cooling air warmed.
In other words, 33% of energy consumed (burned fuel) is electricity,
33% is exhaust heat, and 33% is cooling heat. It needs to be removed
from the garage. Percentages are approximate.

Heat may be bad at times, but it's not poisonous. The topic was CO
poisoning.

i


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.


Remove NOPSAM to email me. Please let
me know if you have posted also.

On 30 Nov 2005 16:29:06 -0800, wrote:

Spud,

With all due respect, I welded an exhaust extendion and placed it
through an airtight seal to the window.

Like a window A/C installation there is no, I repeat, NO exhaust fumes
inside the garage.
Have you ever been inside a commercial repair facility that pipes the
auto exhausts to the vehicles they are working on?

That is a loose connection and a little exhaust can comwe back into the
garage. Not in my situation.

BTW My last condo had a humongeous diesel generator for emergency power
located inside our 21 story building. Our unit was next to it. It was
exhausted to the outside. You have to know what you are doing to be
safe.


Generically, you are correct. BUT! Under the conditions that I
described, not a problem.

I also use a CO2 detector.


You must be the new code book poster child? ;-)

I don't know where to start.

It's not about your ability. It's about _liability_.

You must just be trolling.


-zero

"Ignoramus5455" wrote in message
...
On 30 Nov 2005 20:09:30 -0800, wrote:
Big system. How many KW? Can you talk over it? How much did the
entire project cost.

It is rated for 7 kW, and can produce that continuously 24x7. It can
produce a little more than that, I tried it at 7.5 kW, it produced
that much as well.

My generator is 67 db and it cost $269.95 at Pep Boys is at the other
end of the bell curve..

For these little ones, actually piping exhaust out may not be easy.

Plus, does it pay off to work so hard to make an exhaust piping system
for something that may not be likely to live long.

I can talk over it when it is running. It sits on tubber shock mounts
and hardly vibrates.

That's very, very nice. Mine produces 75 dB after I built an enclosure
around it.

I consider it disposeable and intend to use it less than 100 hours per
year.

Then perhaps making an elaborate system for it is not warranted?

Your gen can suck my gen in and spit it out the other end.

I really, really like this genset, it is one of my favorite things.

i


Good grief, anyone who goes off-grid and thinks they can make it all up with
a cheap generator is sadly mistaken.

In article O32kf.133458$y_1.83543@edtnps89, "JoeSP"
wrote:

"Ignoramus5455" wrote in message
...
On 30 Nov 2005 20:09:30 -0800, wrote:
Big system. How many KW? Can you talk over it? How much did the
entire project cost.

It is rated for 7 kW, and can produce that continuously 24x7. It can
produce a little more than that, I tried it at 7.5 kW, it produced
that much as well.

My generator is 67 db and it cost $269.95 at Pep Boys is at the other
end of the bell curve..

For these little ones, actually piping exhaust out may not be easy.

Plus, does it pay off to work so hard to make an exhaust piping system
for something that may not be likely to live long.

I can talk over it when it is running. It sits on tubber shock mounts
and hardly vibrates.

That's very, very nice. Mine produces 75 dB after I built an enclosure
around it.

I consider it disposeable and intend to use it less than 100 hours per
year.

Then perhaps making an elaborate system for it is not warranted?

Your gen can suck my gen in and spit it out the other end.

I really, really like this genset, it is one of my favorite things.

i


Good grief, anyone who goes off-grid and thinks they can make it all up with
a cheap generator is sadly mistaken.



They will learn that, the first time they actually NEED the generator to
power something, when it is meserably cold and wet....then they will be
back asking questions on why their cheapie generator didn't hold up when
they needed it......

Me

Unforturnately, some think that switching off the circuit
breaker (before turning on generator) is sufficient to isolate
generator from AC mains. Then it takes a human death to
convince them otherwise. The same switch that connects a
generator must first disconnect connection to AC mains.
Switch must perform a 'break before make' function. That
should be the most important point made here.

A connection that requires anything more of a human
(requires separate switching of a breaker box circuit breaker)
would be criminally negligent homicide - that despicable.

Me wrote:
They will learn that, the first time they actually NEED the generator to
power something, when it is meserably cold and wet....then they will be
back asking questions on why their cheapie generator didn't hold up when
they needed it......

Plus, does it pay off to work so hard to make an exhaust piping system
for something that may not be likely to live long.

I changed my exhaust to a 3/4" copper ell and tubing 8" in length.
Slotted the end of the ell and used a SS hose clamp it to the steel
exhaust.
Just friction tween the ell and the tube.

The other end goes through a 3/4" hole in a little 1/8" thick rectangle
of sheet of asbestos board (from a kiln) attached to a 6" high x 36"
wide sheet of plywood that seals the single hung window.

I ran it for 30 minutes today and I could not detect any leaks or
shifting.

Not a lot of work.


BTW The generator ran for 30 minutes and nobody in my house even
noticed it running.

Actually a small exhaust-to-water heat exhanger would provide quite a
bit of hot water.

I considered it but I am concerned about the steam flash problem and
the other complexities involved.

My system is up and running fine in my garage. We can't hear it
running in the house nor can our neighbors.

Here's how I connected the 220 VAC generator cable to the W/H.

220 to 220.

Open one wire of the W/H to the center of a SPDT swtich. One throw to
A/C from panel, the other to a SPST switch.

The other end of the SPST switch to Neutral.


(The prongs of the generator plug are of course energized and an
plastic insulator cover was fabricated for safety - no touch.)


With grid power, everything normal.

No power, flip off Main Breaker, throw the SPDT switch away from panel
to lessen the load on my 3,000 watt generator.

I also flip off all other 220 breakers. Generator is used only for 120
devices and the small breakers.

Plug in cable, start generator. Generator feeds house through W/H
breaker.

Hot water needed? Throw the SPST switch to neutral and the H/W heater
is using 1/4 the power (~850 Watts) on 120 VAC than it uses at 220.

Simple, efficient, and for me, quite safe.

For photos, email me.

YMMV