My house was built in 1952 and I am not the original owner.
The original part of the house has 2 wire Romex WITHOUT ground since it
was a post WW II home built for returning servicemen.
Attic and gargage have 3 wire Romex and is installed correctly.

When I plug a CIRCUIT TESTER - the kind of thing you buy in Depot or
similar with 3 neon lights on it = a yellow, red, clear lens - I get
readings that are not on the sample display on the label on the unit.

They give readings for CORRECT or REVERSED POLARITY, OPEN GROUND, OPEN
HOT, etc.

I get the YELLOW lens BRIGHTLY LIT and BOTH the red and clear lenses
DIMLY LIT on any number of wall outlets.

Without "smart" answers, anyone have an idea of what to look for ?????

House has been this way for better part of 32 years.

TIA

I'm not exactly clear on your situation. Your non grounded romex shouldn't
have standard grounded outlets attached to it. I believe your outlet tester
has a ground prong. I'm curious as to what the outlet grounds are connected
to. Possibly the neutral wire?



"Zing" wrote in message
oups.com...
My house was built in 1952 and I am not the original owner.
The original part of the house has 2 wire Romex WITHOUT ground since it
was a post WW II home built for returning servicemen.
Attic and gargage have 3 wire Romex and is installed correctly.

When I plug a CIRCUIT TESTER - the kind of thing you buy in Depot or
similar with 3 neon lights on it = a yellow, red, clear lens - I get
readings that are not on the sample display on the label on the unit.

They give readings for CORRECT or REVERSED POLARITY, OPEN GROUND, OPEN
HOT, etc.

I get the YELLOW lens BRIGHTLY LIT and BOTH the red and clear lenses
DIMLY LIT on any number of wall outlets.

Without "smart" answers, anyone have an idea of what to look for ?????

House has been this way for better part of 32 years.

TIA

OP HERE

I ended up changing the 2 prong outlets to 3 prong outlets to avoid the
nuisance of using an adapter sticking out with the plug about 3 inches
from the wall.

I know everyone will say it is ILLEGAL.

I can still buy 2 prong duplexes from Lowes in my area for $1.64 each -
expensive compared to 3 prong for about 40 =A2 each in boxes of 10.

Back to the original post

I was careful to put the wires on the new 3 prong duplexes in same
fashion as the old 2 prong units - observing the BRASS and SHINY color
coding on the duplex outlets. Of course that assumes the original stuff
had not been changed. If the original wiring was correct, then I should
be getting a NO GROUND reading on the tester AFAIK.

1) I would appreciate it if someone could give me a few clues as to
what to look for.

2) In the past, I have heard of people putting SILICONE sealant into
the ground plug or putting a label saying NO GROUND onto the plate
cover. Would either of those meet any kind of codes in a grand
fathered in WW II house ? The ground with silicone would NOT allow it
to be used.
3) One poster mentioned POLARITY REVERSED or WORSE .
4) Like what ??? What should I be looking for ???

I am comtemplating moving if I can find something to afford to move
into in today' s market - maybe PA. I don't want surprises from the
house inspector if I can avoid it and remedy it myself.=20

TIA

"Zing" wrote in message
oups.com...
OP HERE

I ended up changing the 2 prong outlets to 3 prong outlets to avoid the
nuisance of using an adapter sticking out with the plug about 3 inches
from the wall.

I know everyone will say it is ILLEGAL.

I can still buy 2 prong duplexes from Lowes in my area for $1.64 each -
expensive compared to 3 prong for about 40 each in boxes of 10.

Back to the original post

I was careful to put the wires on the new 3 prong duplexes in same
fashion as the old 2 prong units - observing the BRASS and SHINY color
coding on the duplex outlets. Of course that assumes the original stuff
had not been changed. If the original wiring was correct, then I should
be getting a NO GROUND reading on the tester AFAIK.

1) I would appreciate it if someone could give me a few clues as to
what to look for.

2) In the past, I have heard of people putting SILICONE sealant into
the ground plug or putting a label saying NO GROUND onto the plate
cover. Would either of those meet any kind of codes in a grand
fathered in WW II house ? The ground with silicone would NOT allow it
to be used.
3) One poster mentioned POLARITY REVERSED or WORSE .
4) Like what ??? What should I be looking for ???

I am comtemplating moving if I can find something to afford to move
into in today' s market - maybe PA. I don't want surprises from the
house inspector if I can avoid it and remedy it myself.

TIA




You are correct, just changing the wires should now give you "no ground" at
all the outlets.
But if you get different light combinations, you have problems that can't
be answered in emails

Pointless to put silicone in the ground hole
And labels saying "no ground" will only be for your own benefit.

Using the 2 hole plugs "MAY" be the least (most correct) of all evils, so
that at least people will readily know there is no ground


No solution will "meet code" now if you have no grounds.

If you don't know what reversed polarity or worse ( hot in ground) means.
I would suggest you get in a proper electrician to see it and give you an
honest evaluation.

Saving a few bucks won't offer you any value in the longrun.
If you should have a fire, and an insurance inspector finds messed up
wiring, even if the cause was not wiring related, good luck getting a check

And even the most inept home inspectors can usually spot a wiring problem in
outlets.
(they use the same neon plug you do)

You may find that rewiring, while expensive, may still pay back when you
sell.



But if after this you STILL want to try yourself.

FIRST,....shut off the power at the main breaker/fuse

A 1950's house should have easily identified colors on the wires.
Whites, blacks, and the occasional red (that can be considered a black)

black (and red) should be HOT
white should be NEUTRAL
note "should" assuming there are not other problems with wiring elsewhere in
the circuits, or you are working in switch boxes.

On the outlets there will be the two "power" holes, and if you look close
one is slightly longer than the other
the longer one is for the neutral (white)

Under no circumstances should you EVER connect anything to the ground screw
other than a devoted ground wire.
Even if some idiot here or elsewhere tells you you can jump the neutral
there.


AMUN

I had the same situation in my house. I was able to replace some of the
2 prong outlets to GFCI outlets. It is code in my jurisdiction, plus it
will protect you since there is no ground on the circuit. I think the
only thing you have to do is label each outlet downstream of the GFCI
outlet.

"Mikepier" wrote in message
ups.com...
I had the same situation in my house. I was able to replace some of the
2 prong outlets to GFCI outlets. It is code in my jurisdiction, plus it
will protect you since there is no ground on the circuit. I think the
only thing you have to do is label each outlet downstream of the GFCI
outlet.


Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

It may have power, but is merely a very expensive duplex outlet, and would
not meet any codes.
(But could fool a naive home/electrical inspector who didn't test it)

GFI's compare the power going through them is always equal in both
directions during each AC cycle, and use the ground wire as a reference.

No ground wire, no gfi protection.


Did you mean a GFI breaker in the panel on the circuit?

Still not really as good as a proper ground, but better than nothing.


But just thinking since the earlier response.

Some areas in the late 50's did require romex with a ground wire but only
required the ground wire go to the metal box and allowed grounding
outlets, where there was no ground wire connected directly to the outlet,
just protected through the mounting screws.
(as with switches)

Check to see if this might be in your case.

Easy enough to see just look in the fuse/breaker panel box to see if ground
wires are there and connected

If so you can just use a jumper from the outlet ground screw to the box.

AMUN

OP here again.

There are no ground wires of any kind in this Romex.
When I moved in the house had 4 15amp breakers with NO main breaker.
A gargage was put up and panel wiring relocated up and over the attic
to the outside wall about 30 years ago.
Township inspector came down and approved install.
Local utility found it OK .

My neighbor suggested "jumping the neutral" but I said ABSOLUTELY NO
WAY.

"Zing" wrote in message
ups.com...
OP here again.

There are no ground wires of any kind in this Romex.
When I moved in the house had 4 15amp breakers with NO main breaker.
A gargage was put up and panel wiring relocated up and over the attic
to the outside wall about 30 years ago.
Township inspector came down and approved install.
Local utility found it OK .

My neighbor suggested "jumping the neutral" but I said ABSOLUTELY NO
WAY.


aha, you give us another clue

It may not have had a main breaker but will have a main shutoff switch with
fuses mounted very close to the panel.

if wiring is correct at the outlets ?

If the panel was moved/changed and wires had to be spliced/extended someone
may have reversed a few connections at a splice.

The inspector may have looked at the panel, then just took it for granted
everything else was okay too.

But I have seen "inspectors" check repairs who never open anything up and
sign off.
Sometimes they don't even enter the building g

You may have more of a nightmare than you first thought.

AGAIN, if you are not comfortable, a good electrician can check it and tell
you if there are any big problems.

AMUN

Amun wrote:

"Mikepier" wrote in message
ups.com...

I had the same situation in my house. I was able to replace some of the
2 prong outlets to GFCI outlets. It is code in my jurisdiction, plus it
will protect you since there is no ground on the circuit. I think the
only thing you have to do is label each outlet downstream of the GFCI
outlet.



Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

It may have power, but is merely a very expensive duplex outlet, and would
not meet any codes.
(But could fool a naive home/electrical inspector who didn't test it)

GFI's compare the power going through them is always equal in both
directions during each AC cycle, and use the ground wire as a reference.

No ground wire, no gfi protection.


GFCI outlets work correctly without a ground. The NEC allows grounded
GFCIs on circuits without a ground (the ground is connected to nothing).
The outlets have to be marked "No equipment ground", a label that is
often included with the GFCI.

A grounded outlet may also be connected on a circuit without a ground
available if the outlet is protected by a GFCI (including downstream
from a GFCI outlet). The outlet must be marked "GFCI protected" and "No
equipment ground".

(Reference: 2005NEC 406.3(D)(3).)

Other installation of a grounded outlet with no ground available is a
code violation and can be dangerous. A home inspector should find this.
In addition, you may be liable if this causes injuries after the house
is sold (although I am not a lawyer and do not play one on TV).

Bud--

Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

I could be wrong, but I thought the way a GFI works is that it
compares current traveling in the hot to current traveling in the
neutral. I thought the ground had nothing to do with it.

Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

Actually a GFCI will work just fine with no grounding wire.

On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:47:35 -0400, "Amun"
wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had the same situation in my house. I was able to replace some of the
2 prong outlets to GFCI outlets. It is code in my jurisdiction, plus it
will protect you since there is no ground on the circuit. I think the
only thing you have to do is label each outlet downstream of the GFCI
outlet.


Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

It may have power, but is merely a very expensive duplex outlet, and would
not meet any codes.
(But could fool a naive home/electrical inspector who didn't test it)

GFI's compare the power going through them is always equal in both
directions during each AC cycle, and use the ground wire as a reference.

No ground wire, no gfi protection.


Did you mean a GFI breaker in the panel on the circuit?

Still not really as good as a proper ground, but better than nothing.


But just thinking since the earlier response.

Some areas in the late 50's did require romex with a ground wire but only
required the ground wire go to the metal box and allowed grounding
outlets, where there was no ground wire connected directly to the outlet,
just protected through the mounting screws.
(as with switches)

Check to see if this might be in your case.

Easy enough to see just look in the fuse/breaker panel box to see if ground
wires are there and connected

If so you can just use a jumper from the outlet ground screw to the box.

AMUN


GFCIs work just fine without a ground connected! Code would require
that the outlet be marked "No Equipment Ground" outlets downstream
should be marked "GFCI Protected-No Equipment Ground", Do it that way
and you will be code legal. The cheap outlet testers won't trip the
GFCI, but the test button will.

Dan. and yes, I am an electrical inspector.

Amun wrote:

snipped it all

Seems you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground about electrical
topics. Always suspicious about thems that know too much about too many
things.

"Dan" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 1 Sep 2005 09:47:35 -0400, "Amun"
wrote:


"Mikepier" wrote in message
oups.com...
I had the same situation in my house. I was able to replace some of the
2 prong outlets to GFCI outlets. It is code in my jurisdiction, plus it
will protect you since there is no ground on the circuit. I think the
only thing you have to do is label each outlet downstream of the GFCI
outlet.


Uh, no way.

NO GFI outlet will ever work without a ground wire.

It may have power, but is merely a very expensive duplex outlet, and
would
not meet any codes.
(But could fool a naive home/electrical inspector who didn't test it)

GFI's compare the power going through them is always equal in both
directions during each AC cycle, and use the ground wire as a reference.

No ground wire, no gfi protection.


Did you mean a GFI breaker in the panel on the circuit?

Still not really as good as a proper ground, but better than nothing.


But just thinking since the earlier response.

Some areas in the late 50's did require romex with a ground wire but only
required the ground wire go to the metal box and allowed grounding
outlets, where there was no ground wire connected directly to the outlet,
just protected through the mounting screws.
(as with switches)

Check to see if this might be in your case.

Easy enough to see just look in the fuse/breaker panel box to see if
ground
wires are there and connected

If so you can just use a jumper from the outlet ground screw to the box.

AMUN


GFCIs work just fine without a ground connected! Code would require
that the outlet be marked "No Equipment Ground" outlets downstream
should be marked "GFCI Protected-No Equipment Ground", Do it that way
and you will be code legal. The cheap outlet testers won't trip the
GFCI, but the test button will.

Dan. and yes, I am an electrical inspector.


Hmmm,....

With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had to check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.

None allow it in new construction without a ground.

So I guess once again it depends on your local codes and the inspector who
comes out.
Or to put it simpler, you can do what you think is best.

But in any case you still have to make sure your hot and neutral wires are
correct.


AMUN

"G Henslee" wrote in message
...
Amun wrote:

snipped it all

Seems you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground about electrical
topics. Always suspicious about thems that know too much about too many
things.



So if you are so much smarter why didn't you answer first ?

GFI's with no ground are absolutely against code here. (label or not)
And an inspector would rake you over the coals for doing it.

I'll bet you still think he should have just jumped the neutrals over and be
done with it too.

AMUN

With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had to
check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.


If they don't work then what are the things on the newer hair dryers ? The
one my wife uses only had a 2 wire plug.

"Zing" wrote in message
oups.com...
My house was built in 1952 and I am not the original owner.
The original part of the house has 2 wire Romex WITHOUT ground since it
was a post WW II home built for returning servicemen.
Attic and gargage have 3 wire Romex and is installed correctly.

When I plug a CIRCUIT TESTER - the kind of thing you buy in Depot or
similar with 3 neon lights on it = a yellow, red, clear lens - I get
readings that are not on the sample display on the label on the unit.

They give readings for CORRECT or REVERSED POLARITY, OPEN GROUND, OPEN
HOT, etc.

I get the YELLOW lens BRIGHTLY LIT and BOTH the red and clear lenses
DIMLY LIT on any number of wall outlets.

Without "smart" answers, anyone have an idea of what to look for ?????

House has been this way for better part of 32 years.

TIA


I have the same kind of tester. They are cheap and the light from one LED
bleeds to the other light's section in the tester. The one that is very
bright is the only one that is to be read as lit. The rest are not lit, and
what you have is a tester that is reading correctly.... open ground.

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
nk.net...
With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had to
check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.


If they don't work then what are the things on the newer hair dryers ?
The
one my wife uses only had a 2 wire plug.



Don't know, and don't want to know.
The OP just wanted some help straightening out some outlet wiring issues.

And now he has to replace all his outlets with GFI's and buy hairdryers.

SHEESH !

AMUN

"Amun" wrote in message
.. .

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
nk.net...
With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had to
check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of
the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.


If they don't work then what are the things on the newer hair dryers ?
The
one my wife uses only had a 2 wire plug.



Don't know, and don't want to know.
The OP just wanted some help straightening out some outlet wiring issues.

And now he has to replace all his outlets with GFI's and buy hairdryers.

SHEESH !

AMUN



Not all of them. Just the first in the daisy chain. The rest will still be
protected from ground fault.

It is not allowed in new construction, granted. But it makes a 2-wire
receptacle system much much safer and it is allowed specifically under those
conditions with proper stickers affixed. Even plain jane 3-prong receptacles
with no ground wire are allowed if the outlet is GFCI protected and so
labeled as GFCI protected and no equipment ground.

"Olaf" wrote in message
news

"Amun" wrote in message
.. .

"Ralph Mowery" wrote in message
nk.net...
With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had
to
check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of
the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with
a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.


If they don't work then what are the things on the newer hair dryers ?
The
one my wife uses only had a 2 wire plug.



Don't know, and don't want to know.
The OP just wanted some help straightening out some outlet wiring
issues.

And now he has to replace all his outlets with GFI's and buy hairdryers.

SHEESH !

AMUN



Not all of them. Just the first in the daisy chain. The rest will still be
protected from ground fault.

It is not allowed in new construction, granted. But it makes a 2-wire
receptacle system much much safer and it is allowed specifically under
those
conditions with proper stickers affixed. Even plain jane 3-prong
receptacles
with no ground wire are allowed if the outlet is GFCI protected and so
labeled as GFCI protected and no equipment ground.



I do admit and agreed earlier in this thread that "it's still better than
nothing"
But not by much.


But the one main caveat of that solution is that some equipment really does
not like being on ground faults, (computers,tv power supplies, refrigerator
motors, UPS's etc.) and can pop a gfi for no valid reason.
Such things are usually in plastic isolated cases and make gfi protection
almost silly as there is no possible risk of shock, unless someone is really
begging for it.

Those items usually come with polarized plugs, and are designed to be
protected by a dedicated ground and fuse/breaker.

Even lightning storms in the area can flip a gfi from transients in the AC
line.

If the main gfi is in another room upstream of the outlet, there will be a
lot of worn carpeting while constantly running around guessing which one
tripped, and resetting them.


But the fact remains that the OP's real problem is best solved by simply
replacing all the wiring with romex with a ground.

Or at least first making sure that all existing outlets are wired as
properly as possible.
(hot and neutral where they should be)

AMUN

OP here again .

I knew this topic was a can of worms.

I just checked the wiring I did in the garage add on and in the attic
which had no electric when I moved in 30+ years ago.

Based on the same GB tester results, only 2 lights show = PERFECT
HOOKUP.
So I am not totally devoid of skills.

The problem is with the rest of the ORIGINAL house wiring. I have made
additiions to that wiring and it was done BLACK TO BLACK and WHITE TO
WHITE since the colors of the old original Romex were visible.

As I said, a garage was added on and the original wiring in the
original panel ( now a junction box ) was extended over the garage
ceiling to the new outside wall of the garage. The junction box has
been plastered over, but I am sure my friend and I (he knew more than I
did at the time ) were not that stupid as to mix BLACK AND WHITE wires
in splicing the connections.

The ORIGINAL panel had 4 15amp breakers with NO MAIN breaker - 60 amp
service.

Thanks to all for all the help.

I had insufficient information from your post to provide an
accurate answer. But all along, the two glowing lights could
be an example of ground leakage from an appliance to a three
prong outlet not connected back, by safety ground, to the
mains breaker box. This is only speculation. But considering
a shortage of useful responses, I offer this up as
speculation.

Zing wrote:
OP here again .

I knew this topic was a can of worms.

I just checked the wiring I did in the garage add on and in the attic
which had no electric when I moved in 30+ years ago.

Based on the same GB tester results, only 2 lights show = PERFECT
HOOKUP.
So I am not totally devoid of skills.

The problem is with the rest of the ORIGINAL house wiring. I have made
additiions to that wiring and it was done BLACK TO BLACK and WHITE TO
WHITE since the colors of the old original Romex were visible.

As I said, a garage was added on and the original wiring in the
original panel ( now a junction box ) was extended over the garage
ceiling to the new outside wall of the garage. The junction box has
been plastered over, but I am sure my friend and I (he knew more than I
did at the time ) were not that stupid as to mix BLACK AND WHITE wires
in splicing the connections.

The ORIGINAL panel had 4 15amp breakers with NO MAIN breaker - 60 amp
service.

Thanks to all for all the help.

OP here again

I was going to start a new thread since the info below is a new wrinkle
but decided to post here with something I found on the ACE HARDWARE
site while trying to do some research on the 3 lights that I mentioned
previously giving me a BRIGHT YELLOW lite and a DIM RED AND CLEAR lites
- all three lit at one time.

I found this instruction as I said on the ACE site in an FAQ on HOW TO
use the CIRCUIT ANALYZER with the 3 lites

" What is the easiest way to test an outlet?

Use a receptacle analyzer. Leave the power on, but make sure nothing is
plugged into any outlet on the circuit, and turn off all switches on
the circuit. Now, plug the analyzer into the outlet. A series of lights
will tell you if the outlet is wired correctly and working."

I know of no one that does this or ever did this when using the tester.

If it is that important, I think it should be put into the instructions
with the tester.

Does that instruction make any sense ?
Might this be my problem vs something more serious ?

TIA again

Amun posted for all of us...
I don't top post - see either inline or at bottom.

Hmmm,....

With all these answers saying a GFI can work without a ground I had to check
for myself.

Seems that I was somwhat wrong.
But not totally.
Yes totally.

I checked around and while some people claim they will work, none of the
manufacturers recommend using these without grounds.
Cite the manufacturers.

In some areas they do allow them in retrofits without grounds. (with a
label)
Other places say absolutely NO WAY.
Like everything else in life. Local codes vary. The AHJ is the judge.

None allow it in new construction without a ground.
NEW construction REQUIRES a ground; so therefore this assertion is bogus.

So I guess once again it depends on your local codes and the inspector who
comes out.
Now you start to catch on...
Or to put it simpler, you can do what you think is best.
No, he can do it the right way.

But in any case you still have to make sure your hot and neutral wires are
correct.
Duh!

He also has to make certain the line and load sides are correct plus many other
things.. Why don't you keep quiet about things you know nothing about?


AMUN


--

Tekkie

A light fully glowing would be 120 volts. A light
extinguished would be near zero volts. A light glowing
partially would be something like 60 volts. But 'something
like 60 volts' must not exist between any two wires. So what
is leaking half of the 120 volts? That is basically the
question to be asked. Nothing should be leaking half of the
120 volts.

BTW, that tester cannot report a good wiring job. It can
only report a failure; not a good condition. But in your
case, something is leaking 'something like 60 volts' where
there should only be near zero volts or 120 volts. Maybe an
appliance. Maybe a wiring problem. But definitely a problem.
Maybe the symptoms of a minor problem or maybe symptoms of
something serious. Further information is necessary which is
why I would be using my multimeter to learn more. Start by
measuring voltage between every pair of those three receptacle
connections - 3 voltage measurements recorded for this and all
other electrically adjacent receptacles.

Zing wrote:
" What is the easiest way to test an outlet?

Use a receptacle analyzer. Leave the power on, but make sure nothing is
plugged into any outlet on the circuit, and turn off all switches on
the circuit. Now, plug the analyzer into the outlet. A series of lights
will tell you if the outlet is wired correctly and working."

I know of no one that does this or ever did this when using the tester.

If it is that important, I think it should be put into the instructions
with the tester.

Does that instruction make any sense ?
Might this be my problem vs something more serious ?

TIA again