"Travis Jordan" wrote:

Unfortunately, Amendment 10 only caps the ASSESSED VALUATION of
homesteaded property. The millage RATE isn't capped. If the property
tax decreases for homeowners across the state by an estimated $611 each
the cities and counties will raise the millage rate to make up for the
lost revenue. You are correct that some locales may find it more
politically popular to raise sales taxes.

Right. I understood that, and yes, I expect the sales tax will increase along
with a small increase in property taxes. Where did you get the $611 figure? I
had estimated the impact as less than that, based on our local rate.

"Mike M." wrote:

Anything less than $200k seems like a deal these days. And when you factor
in (likely very high) property taxes, insurance, utilities, etc. - well, I
don't know how (or if at all) they do it. I sure as hell couldn't...

One way seems to be three generation households, where two of the generations
are paying towards expenses. Another method is under the table renting of
rooms. Single family houses containing a single family are culturally rare for
some of the immigrants here.

SoCalMike wrote:

now, if walmart is so draconian that they threaten to fire you if you
dont transfer, well, theyre a sucky company anyway.

Upper store management transfers are common in the "big box" stores. The first
time I ran across it was back in the early 1970s, when a K-Mart manager told me
he would be moving soon bacause of such a policy. The concept, from what I was
told, is that the managers don't have the opportunity to set up long term scams
with employees, and can't get buddy enough with local vendors to work out
kickbacks. How much of that is true, I don't know. Changing just for the sake
of change does suck, and it keeps the manager more dependent upon the company.

However, in defense of management moves, I do know that in theatres there would
always be some manager that was under-utilized and another that was screwing up
at a larger location, requiring a swap, or a termination, move, and rehire.
Often the manager we wanted to move was happy to do so because of increased
wages or commissions, but sometimes the move was declined, in which case the
manager's growth within the company was dead-ended.

"mightybargainhunter" wrote in message
om...
1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

These savings are touted by almost everyone. The mortgage interest
you pay currently counts as a tax deduction. This translates to maybe
20 cents of tax savings on every dollar that you pay. Don't buy a
house just for the tax savings because you'll be paying several times
that in interest!

If the interest is comparable to the what you'd be paying in rent, that's
still 20 cents saved over what you'd have as a renter.

"Don K" wrote in message
...
"victor" wrote in message
news
2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house.

Not necessarily. You don't have to wait until you own it free and clear
to recover your money. I resold my first house 10 years after I bought
it and got back every penny in taxes, principal, interest, and maintenance
I had ever put into it. ...And then some.

As did I. And that's before considering tax savings. And the mortgage,
etc. was cheaper over those ten years than the rent on my last apartment to
boot.

wrote:
"Travis Jordan" wrote:

Unfortunately, Amendment 10 only caps the ASSESSED VALUATION of
homesteaded property. The millage RATE isn't capped. If the
property tax decreases for homeowners across the state by an
estimated $611 each the cities and counties will raise the millage
rate to make up for the lost revenue. You are correct that some
locales may find it more politically popular to raise sales taxes.

Right. I understood that, and yes, I expect the sales tax will
increase along with a small increase in property taxes. Where did
you get the $611 figure? I had estimated the impact as less than
that, based on our local rate.

Our millage rate is 24.422, so 25K x .02442 = $611. YMMV.

wrote in message
...
One way seems to be three generation households, where two of the
generations
are paying towards expenses.


Tell me, is this common or only for certain cultures (which)? I don't hear
very much about this but I'd imagine it sure would help people in general to
handle living expenses since shelter is usually one of our biggest expenses,
and I wonder why more people don't do this.
ares

I cannot believe we are arguing about this. Unless someone is really stupid,
real estate is a smart investment. Any long-term rental makes no sense.

For example, my residence cost $28,000, is now worth $450,000. A year ago, I
bought a new house for investment for $162,000. My payment and the lease
income are about equal. The same house in a new division is now $255,000. I
know this is not typical, but you can do it in the right area.

Sabu

"victor" wrote in message
news
Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.

4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house. I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

victor wrote:

Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.


you can write off property taxes too. In fact, my house payment after
all the tax writeoffs is lower than renting a dinky 3/2 apartment and I
have twice as much room, a 2 car garage to boot.


2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.


You can pay off a house a lot sooner than 30 years, mine'll be paid off
after 12.

3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price.

which is typically the case


Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes.

even ghetto people need ghetto houses to live in.


4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house. I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.


well shazaam, why lease or buy a car, just rent one from Hertz or Budget
by the week and have them pay for the FREE maintenance.

Whether one buys a house or not depends on many factors. If you are
rich, you don't have to buy
a house until you are ready. But if you are middle to low income and
you are able to afford
to buy a house within your means or income, there is merit to doing so
in some circumstances.

Let me give you my example. I live in one of the most expensive cities
in the world. I bought a shack
- modest house - 30 years ago, when I was in my mid twenties. I though
I had lots of time but my collages
bugged me about it and I am glad they did. Let me pause to say that my
uncle bought a place in the 1920s for 3,000 dollars. I bought a place
for 45,000 dollars in the 1970. Today to buy a place probably costs
225,000.
All modest accommodations. I bought a modest shack so that if I lost my
job or got down-sized, I could still work at McDonalds and make the
monthly payments.

So what does this all mean? Well, my property taxes are 3.50 cents per
day including water and garbage. I have house insurance of about 50
dollars a month. That is it. Oh, I have electricity and gas but they
are a luxury if times get tough. I would be hard pressed to find a
cheaper place to live anywhere in North America.
To rent one room is 500 to 600 a month. To rent a basic apartment is
800 to a thousand plus.

Those that have not done as well, given similar circumstances, are those
that moved because of jobs or divorces/several spouses and sold and
bought several times. The market and the real estate fees have
basically destroyed them over time because they are just average not
rich.

Those that bought in the better neighbourhoods have had their property
values go sky high but they are paying 11 dollars a day in taxes such
that staying where they are on a modest pension is very, very
difficult. They, of course, are free to move to a unknown
neighbourhood at today's prices, but that alone is not an easy
proposition.




victor wrote:

Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

Speaking as an American, yes. Canadians can't write off mortgages as
such on a home.

2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent.

Well, that wasn't the case when I bought and I don't think it is the
case today either.
I rented a townhouse in the 1970s for 350 a month. The notice to raise
the rent a year later to 400
had me house hunting pronto. Mortgage payments were 450 a month. Just
a couple of weeks ago
a young couple bought a place and their mortgage payments as I recall
were 1,500 a month. Given
that rents today in this city are averaging 800 to a thousand, it is not
that dissimilar.

By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house.

Not sure how old you are, but if you bought at 25 you will be 50 with a
25 year mortgage.
Most 50 year olds may be bigger in the butt than most 25 year olds but
most are not wearing Depends yet
contrary to what you believe, want to believe or think you know.

Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT!

Yes, many move from the big house with the kids gone to an apartment.
Many however, bought a modest
first house and stayed in it and will likely breath their last breath in
it, too. Your/their choice.

By that time, an assisted living apartment.

Two options here. Some want to move to assisted living regardless of
their health or condition to live as
long as they can, with or without Depends.

Others want to live independently for as long as they can and then call
it quits, refuse all medications
and go quietly in their own home after a very long, and happy life.
They don't want the extra years in
assisted living apartments.


And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.


You are right, not a consideration, even if it is true.


3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.


You are right about all that. There really are so many variables.
I am referring to an average city. Small towns, company towns change
the dynamics greatly.
Many sad stories.

When I bought my house, it was never about it going up in value and
buying and selling houses in the market
place. Many people did well doing this and many did not. It was about
buying a place to live a quiet live in a modest way through wars,
floods, stock crashes and the unknown.

In the context of neighbourhoods going down the tubes, a very valid
point. My neighbourhood had elderly people living in it when I bought,
but on fixed incomes most had to move. A younger mixed group moved in,
not bad, not ideal overall, not because of their age, but because of the
percentage of less desirable; however, because my city doesn't have any
more property, redevelopment is slowly changing the neighbourhood and it
will improve before it gets really bad. In the politest language you
could say I bought a shack on the better side of the tracks as opposed
to a mansion on the wrong side of the tracks.
Overall it has been an effective move.

4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house.

This is my favourite area. I bought an old second-hand electrolux
vacuum for 50 dollars from a walk-in
electrolux dealership on the wrong side of the tracks part of town.
Like you, I wouldn't want to tell
you how many times I have vacuumed or not vacuumed. But not a problem,
it's a small place.

I am not that bright but with the help and patience of Home Depot I have
reroofed, replumbed, and rewired the shack over the 30 years. Each
roughly costs 600 dollars to do it yourself. So dirt cheap. But the
good part is, you can do it when you have the cash and if you don't have
the cash for a while, you use the one tap that works, the one light that
works and sleep in the only dry corner in the house where the roof
doesn't leak.

I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

Jokingly, I ask how young are you?

Everyone I know, without exception, complains that the landlord doesn't
fix anything and if they do, it is a makeshift shoddy job and leaves a
mess behind and their doors unlocked not to mention they have no idea
when the trades person will or will not be there and security issues
everywhere.

Oh, and about it being free. Improvements means the rent can usually go
up - and up.

And before I forget, I will tell you about a story of a lovely woman who
was going to retire. I said, keep working, who knows what the dollar
will do or what portion of the pension won't be there in a few years.
She agreed and then thought better of it, her choice. But wait, she
gets a letter from the strata council
telling her that her portion of repairs and upkeep to the building will
be 30 t 50 thousand dollars due within the next couple of years. Pay
that on a small fixed pension. So she can't retire, she has to work and
save for the unknown.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

Absolutely no question it is a matter of personal preference. But you
should talk to people over 45 who rent, are of modest income and have
little hope of buying at this late stage. These people see their rents
go up
regularly and their salary does not.

One last comment. A guy who lived across the street in a rental
apartment building for over 30 years since it was built, was told they
were going to renovate his suite and he would have to move - long story
short - he could move back later. My take on the story is that he won a
free satellite dish and mounted it on the outside balcony of his rental
suite. That I believe was a no, no for a number of reasons from his
landlord's perspective. The only way to get him out was to renovate.
That they did. He fought moving but in the end the law is, you rent,
you have to move. The landlord may have to pay you thousands in the end
to get you to move, but in the end you move. What would be the
likelihood of this guy wanting to move back, give notice and all that at
the other building and there would be a new contract at his old
building, higher rents. You got it. He was roasted.

My personal opinion is that considering all of the circumstances, buying
a modest shack somewhere on the planet that is affordable to you when
you are able to earn a modest income is that as bad as it seems and to
most, done carefully, is probably a good idea.

Whether one buys a house or not depends on many factors. If you are
rich, you don't have to buy
a house until you are ready. But if you are middle to low income and
you are able to afford
to buy a house within your means or income, there is merit to doing so
in some circumstances.

Let me give you my example. I live in one of the most expensives cities
in the world. I bought a shack
- modest house - 30 years ago, when I was in my mid twenties. I though
I had lots of time but my collogues
bugged me about it and I am glad they did. Let me pause to say that my
uncle bought a place in the 1920s for 3,000 dollars. I bought a place
for 45,000 dollars in the 1970. Today to buy a place probably costs
225,000.
All modest accommodations. I bought a modest shack so that if I lost my
job or got down-sized, I could still work at McDonalds and make the
monthly payments.

So what does this all mean? Well, my property taxes are 3.50 cents per
day including water and garbage. I have house insurance of about 50
dollars a month. That is it. Oh, I have electricity and gas but they
are a luxury if times get tough. I would be hard pressed to find a
cheaper place to live anywhere in North America.
To rent one room is 500 to 600 a month. To rent a basic apartment is
800 to a thousand plus.

Those that have not done as well, given similar circumstances, are those
that moved because of jobs or divorces/several spouses and sold and
bought several times. The market and the real estate fees have
basically destroyd them over time becuase they are just average not
rich.

Those that bought in the better neighbourhoods have had their property
values go sky high but they are paying 11 dollars a day in taxes such
that staying where they are on a modest pension is very, very
difficult. They, of course, are free to move to a unknown
neighbourhood at today's prices, but that alone is not an easy
proposition.




victor wrote:

Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

Speaking as an American, yes. Canadians can't write off mortages as
such on a home.

2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent.

Well, that wasn't the case when I bought and I don't think it is the
case today either.
I rented a townhouse in the 1970s for 350 a month. The notice to raise
the rent a year later to 400
had me house hunting pronto. Mortgage payemnts were 450 a month. Just
a couple of weeks ago
a young couple bought a place and their mortage payments as I recall
were 1,500 a month. Given
that rents today in this city are averaging 800 to a thousand, it is not
that dissimilar.

By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house.

Not sure how old you are, but if you bought at 25 you will be 50 with a
25 year mortgage.
Most 50 year olds may be bigger in the butt than most 25 year olds but
most are not wearing Depends yet
contarary to what you believe, want to believe or think you know.

Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT!

Yes, many move from the big house with the kids gone to an apartment.
Many however, bought a modest
first house and stayed in it and will likely breath their last breath in
it, too. Your/their choice.

By that time, an assisted living apartment.

Two options here. Some want to move to assisted living regardless of
their health or condition to live as
long as they can, with or without Depends.

Others want to live independently for as long as they can and then call
it quits, refuse all medications
and go quietly in their own home after a very long, and happy life.
They don't want the extra years in
assisted living apartments.


And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.


You are right, not a consideration, even if it is true.


3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.


You are right about all that. There really are so many varriables.
I am referring to an average city. Small towns, company towns change
the dynamics greatly.
Many sad stories.

When I bought my house, it was never about it going up in value and
buying and selling houses in the market
place. Many people did well doing this and many did not. It was about
buying a place to live a quiet live in a modest way through wars,
floods, stock crashes and the unknown.

In the context of neighbourhoods going down the tubes, a very valid
point. My neighbourhood had elderly people living in it when I bought,
but on fixed incomes most had to move. A younger mixed group moved in,
not bad, not ideal overall, not because of their age, but because of the
percentage of less desirables; however, because my city doesn't have any
more property, redevelopment is slowly changing the neighbourhood and it
will improve before it gets really bad. In the politest language you
could say I bought a shack on the better side of the tracks as opposed
to a mansion on the wrong side of the tracks.
Overall it has been an effective move.

4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house.

This is my favourite area. I bought an old second-hand electrolux
vacuum for 50 dollars from a walk-in
electrolux dealership on the wrong side of the tracks part of town.
Like you, I wouldn't want to tell
you how many times I have vacuumed or not vacuumed. But not a problem,
it's a small place.

I am not that bright but with the help and patience of Home Depot I have
reroofed, replumbed, and rewired the shack over the 30 years. Each
roughtly costs 600 dollars to do it yourself. So dirt cheap. But the
good part is, you can do it when you have the cash and if you don't have
the cash for a while, you use the one tap that works, the one light that
works and sleep in the only dry corner in the house where the roof
doesn't leak.

I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

Jokingly, I ask how young are you?

Everyone I know, without exception, complains that the landlord doesn't
fix anything and if they do, it is a makeshift shoddy job and leaves a
mess behind and their doors unlocked not to mention they have no idea
when the trades person will or will not be there and security issues
everywhere.

Oh, and about it being free. Improvements means the rent can usually go
up - and up.

And before I forget, I will tell you about a story of a lovely woman who
was going to retire. I said, keep working, who knows what the dollar
will do or what portion of the pension won't be there in a few years.
She agreed and then throught better of it, her choice. But wait, she
gets a letter from the strata council
telling her that her portion of repairs and upkeep to the building will
be 30 t 50 thousand dollars due within the next couple of years. Pay
that on a small fixed pension. So she can't retire, she has to work and
save for the unknown.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

Absolutely no question it is a matter of personal preference. But you
should talk to people over 45 who rent, are of modest income and have
little hope of buying at this late stage. These people see their rents
go up
regularly and their salary does not.

One last comment. A guy who lived across the street in a rental
apartment building for over 30 years since it was built, was told they
were going to renovate his suite and he would have to move - long story
short - he could move back later. My take on the story is that he won a
free satelite dish and mounted it on the outside balcony of his rental
suite. That I believe was a no, no for a number of reasons from his
landlord's perspective. The only way to get him out was to removate.
That they did. He fought moving but in the end the law is, you rent,
you have to move. The landlord may have to pay you thousands in the end
to get you to move, but in the end you move. What would be the
likelihood of this guy wanting to move back, give notice and all that at
the other building and there would be a new contract at his old
building, higher rents. You got it. He was roasted.

My personal opinion is that considering all of the circumstances, buying
a modest shack somewhere on the planet that is affordable to you when
you are able to earn a modest income is that as bad as it seems and to
most, done carefully, is probably a good idea.

"Robert Morrisette" wrote:
For example, my residence cost $28,000, is now worth $450,000.

When did you buy it?

"ares" wrote:


wrote in message
...
One way seems to be three generation households, where two of the
generations
are paying towards expenses.


Tell me, is this common or only for certain cultures (which)? I don't hear
very much about this but I'd imagine it sure would help people in general to
handle living expenses since shelter is usually one of our biggest expenses,
and I wonder why more people don't do this.
ares

We have some close Mexican neighbors doing this, and in Miami there are a fair
number of situations that are similar. I'll have to say a lot of
inter-generational house sharing that I see is Hispanic, but I only use the
generic term because I still have difficulty separating out the various
Nicaraguan, Cuban, Puerto Rican, Columbian, Argentinean, and other
sub-cultures. The practice is more commonplace in situations where housing is
expensive compared to income. Mother-in-law apartments used to be somewhat
common where I grew up in Vermont, and farm families were typically three
generations to a house. Today, the McMansions often have a working son or
daughter resident, supposedly saving up to buy their own house. For people who
are blessed with close comfortable family ties, it is a great idea.

Where did
you get the $611 figure? I had estimated the impact as less than
that, based on our local rate.

Our millage rate is 24.422, so 25K x .02442 = $611. YMMV.

I just checked again, ours is 26.29, actually down from some previous years. I
have no idea where I got a $500 figure into my head, I screwed up somewhere.

victor wrote in newsfadndIcKrsYKXLdRVn-
:

Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it
seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

YOu already pay property taxes. Actually your landlord does and
he passes them on to you as part of your rent payment. Whether
you save on income taxes depends on the mortgage intrest being
higher than the standard deduction. The savings come if you can
itemize and get a number higher than the standard deduction.


2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

But most people don't buy with the idea of paying off the mortgage.
within 10 years they move up. The equity becomes their down payment
on the next house. If they havn't ****ed it away on boats, RV's
big screen TV's, etc bought with a home equity line.

Depending on market conditions it is possible to have your fixed
rate mortgage become less than a rent payment. Your fixed
rate mortgage payment will increase only slightly (due to taxes
and insurance) each year, while rent payments can go up dramaticly.
I have seen people with 5 year old mortgages paying less per
month than most renters.


3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.

There are many risks to owning real estate. However for 99.9%
of the population all your assumtions work out and they make money.


4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house. I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

The hidden cost of owning a house. I lived in appartments for
several years. Never durring those years was I asked to mow
the lawn, clean the pool, paint the outside, etc.
On the other hand, once you have kids, they need a place to
go run and play. they will drive you crazy if you stay cooped up
inside with them. So a house and yard is great if you have kids.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou
attitude.



--
Just my $0.02 worth. Hope it helps
Gordon Reeder
greeder
at: myself.com

Where is George Bush leading this country
and what are we doing in this hand basket??

occupant wrote:


My personal opinion is that considering all of the circumstances, buying
a modest shack somewhere on the planet that is affordable to you when
you are able to earn a modest income is that as bad as it seems and to
most, done carefully, is probably a good idea.

I tried to buy a house last month. The realtor and I sat
down and looked at what I could afford to finance. Assuming
that 50% of my net income would go for mortgage and escrow
for insurance and taxes, she then look at what was available
in a distance from my job that would let me keep my gasoline
costs under $200/month and car maintenance under $1k/year.

LOL!

There was nothing. She laughed and said I would have to
come up a bit on what I was going to bid on any houses,
and when we started talking about 75% of my monthly income
then a few houses became possible. All older houses that
were built at least 50 years ago or more, most didn't have
air conditioning, no insulation (this is Texas), local room
heating, on tiny lots with no car garage or shelter. Based
on what the local property tax appraisal people have been
doing over the last 20 years or so, I must expect my property
taxes to rise at the maximum legal allowable rate of 10%,
so that means that in 5 years my house payment would be
close to 90$ of my net income.

Hmm...

Just don't see that working out. I like things like
water and sewer service, electric lights, and heat in
the winter.

BTW, car gets 26-33 MPG and I do all my own maintenance,
I don't have (and can't afford) a car payment and the mandatory
full coverage insurance that goes along with it. I got my first
raise in almost three years, all thirty five cents, and I don't
expect to get any more for the foreseeable future.

So, as good an investment a house looks like on paper, here
in the real world it cannot work for many people because the
entry price is just too high.

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

I have paid off $20,000 on my house, yet I have $60,000 in equity. You are
definately better off buying a house, man. In most cases, the mortgage
would be cheaper than rent, plus you get a tax break and money back!

In America, we don't have free health care or education, but the system
bends over backwards to help you buy a house. Take advantage of that
opportunity!!!

Thanks,

Mike

--
To reply via email remove the X's from my email address:



"victor" wrote in message
news
Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.

4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house. I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

wrote:

SoCalMike wrote:


now, if walmart is so draconian that they threaten to fire you if you
dont transfer, well, theyre a sucky company anyway.


Upper store management transfers are common in the "big box" stores. The first
time I ran across it was back in the early 1970s, when a K-Mart manager told me
he would be moving soon bacause of such a policy. The concept, from what I was
told, is that the managers don't have the opportunity to set up long term scams
with employees, and can't get buddy enough with local vendors to work out
kickbacks. How much of that is true, I don't know. Changing just for the sake
of change does suck, and it keeps the manager more dependent upon the company.

and i think it all depends on the circumstances and how big the company
is. it must have been some kind of "job growth opportunity", because
there are probably a few other WMTs in the area he could have gone and
still kept the home.

However, in defense of management moves, I do know that in theatres there would
always be some manager that was under-utilized and another that was screwing up
at a larger location, requiring a swap, or a termination, move, and rehire.
Often the manager we wanted to move was happy to do so because of increased
wages or commissions, but sometimes the move was declined, in which case the
manager's growth within the company was dead-ended.

yup. ive learned if you want to move up, you have to be willing to
transfer locations, meet more people, face different decisions.

No problem. People like you will make me rich, because you'll go on renting my
properties from me until the day you die.

LOL... then when ya want some quick cash, youll give the renter the
boot, and liquify that asset.

127.0.0.1 wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 20:28:14 GMT, wrote:


I understand that concern, but I'm not sure that it applies. The raising of
property tax rates would most directly affect _new_ home buyers of houses
valued at $300K or more, and thus cool the real estate market to a point that
would be unacceptable, especially now that it appears interest rates may rise.
Just like in "Sim City" higher tax rates equate to slower growth (a gross
oversimplification, but generally true).

not true at all, regardless of home values government needs funds to
operate, if values fall, they'll just increase the tax rates

hard to say. if values start to fall, more people might try getting out
while the gettings good, letting more renters become owners, subject to
current tax rates.

im just waiting for the dummies that got suckered into ARM's as the only
way to get a house they can barely afford. theyre gonna **** bricks when
rates go up.

"JazzMan" wrote in message ...
So, as good an investment a house looks like on paper, here
in the real world it cannot work for many people because the
entry price is just too high.

Well to buy a house you do need to save up enough of
a down-payment that will enable you to finance the rest
from your income. Maybe that means living with your parents
for 10 more years before out moving into your own. Or maybe
it means sharing a place with roommates while you build up
some cash or getting additional training to get a better job.

As always, you will find that people with more cash and more
income have more options.

Don

victor wrote in message ...
2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

Have owned three houses in three states and each time the payments
were very little more if not less than renting. Most important to us
is the freedom to paint or change our home any way we want.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

SoCalMike wrote:

im just waiting for the dummies that got suckered into ARM's as the only
way to get a house they can barely afford. theyre gonna **** bricks when
rates go up.

One of the best uses of that phrase that I've ever seen. Nicely done.

JazzMan wrote:

BTW, car gets 26-33 MPG and I do all my own maintenance,
I don't have (and can't afford) a car payment and the mandatory
full coverage insurance that goes along with it. I got my first
raise in almost three years, all thirty five cents, and I don't
expect to get any more for the foreseeable future.

OK, I'll bite. Why on earth are you staying at that job and in that location?
I'd have shown that employer my butt cheeks walking out the door about two
years ago.

wrote:

JazzMan wrote:

BTW, car gets 26-33 MPG and I do all my own maintenance,
I don't have (and can't afford) a car payment and the mandatory
full coverage insurance that goes along with it. I got my first
raise in almost three years, all thirty five cents, and I don't
expect to get any more for the foreseeable future.

OK, I'll bite. Why on earth are you staying at that job and in that location?
I'd have shown that employer my butt cheeks walking out the door about two
years ago.

Because there aren't any jobs that I can find in my field
that pay any more than what I make now, in this area. Plus,
this area has a dirth of new jobs other than low-paid service
sector jobs, and I'd have to work two or three of those to
make what I make now.

What it really boils down to is that all of the affordable
housing around here is moving way out into the boonies. If
I was willing to live 40-50 miles away and spend $250/month
in fuel and the attendant car maintenance associated with
that kind of high mileage I could buy a house. I have enough
saved to put 20% or more down so that I can avoid paying PMI,
that's being frugal, but in the end I don't want to spend three
hours a day in grinding stop and go commuting traffic, I don't
want to spend a couple hundred hours a year doing major system
overhauls on my car.

I've thought about moving, but where? The D/FW area is
supposedly one of the most robust economic areas in Texas,
though I feel that the numbers that show this don't reflect
the fact that most of the new jobs created here are low-paid
McJobs and not real technical and production jobs. I was in
Topeka a few weekends ago, that area looks really nice, but
looking through the want adds in the paper yielded nothing
that would work for me. No real jobs. That seems to be the
mantra in these modern times.

I've considered going back to school, but I just can't afford
it. I though about borrowing money, but what would I repay the
loan with? It would have to be a big loan, enough to cover all
my living expenses and rent, and to pay tuition and books as
well. I've resolved all my life to live debt free, and I can't
see graduating with a huge debt bigger than a mortgage with no
assurance I could get a job that paid enough to repay the loan
and have a life, too. I've got friends with advanced degrees
who have been looking for jobs for the last three years, and
that doesn't give me confidence that I can compete with 22 year
olds fresh out of college with the same degree as I would have.

My parents are both dead, so that's not an option, and neither
ever had much money to begin with. I'm the first person, perhaps
the only person, that I know of in my family that has ever
earned a degree. It took me a very long time working full time
and going part time to school at nights, but I did it. However,
it doesn't seem to be paying off, and I wonder if it was worth
it sometimes.

I'm considering asking my company if I can also work
the night shift as a welder or fitter, I took welding classes
in school for fun and have my own wire welder that I make
things with. It would benefit my company because they would
save the cost of benefits since I already get those at my
day job there. The extra income from the welding job would
bump me up into the 28% tax bracket just a touch, but I should
earn enough to actual be able to save aggressively, plus I
can get some experience in GMAW and maybe SMAW which might
pay off down the road.

IMHO the real estate price explosion around here is part
of a speculative bubble, because even in spite of the
record foreclosure rates here lately prices are still
skyrocketing. I had hoped that the bubble would burst
when the economy tanked three years ago, so that lower
prices combined with low interest rates would finally
give me the ability to buy a home, but now I see rates
going back up, and prices not budging a nickel. I don't
know what to do about that. This reminds me of the deal
in Amsterdam back in the 1600s when speculation drove
the prices of tulips up to astronomical levels. A single
tulip would cost more than a house. People would buy
tulips on the hopes that they would go up in price and
they could sell for a large profit. Sound familiar?

JazzMan
--
************************************************** ********
Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
************************************************** ********

"Scott en Aztlán" wrote in message
...
In misc.consumers, JazzMan said:

is it really? how much does your rent go up each year? my payments
will
be the same 30 years from now as they are today. will your rent
payments? i doubt it.

Rent prices around here tend to say within the same general
range as house payments for equivalent sizes, with the rent
being a little higher most of the time.

Go ask your neighbor down the street who has owned his house for 20 years
what
his mortgage payment is. I *guarantee* you it is less than the current
rent for
an equivalent rental unit.

Yep. When DH and I were at that point in our mortgage, our monthly payment
on a 2,200 square foot house in a nice suburban neighborhood was $314, an
amount that would have paid for a nice efficiency apartment in that same
area. I'm no longer in a position to estimate what the monthly tax,
insurance and maintenance costs were, but I doubt if they were much more
than a couple hundred a month. Adding those in, you could possibly have
rented a smallish 2-bedroom.

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 01:06:06 -0400, Mike (Remove X's to reply) wrote:

I have paid off $20,000 on my house, yet I have $60,000 in equity.

Also note that you $60,000 in equity ($40,000 in gains) is tax free. I
have about $40K into my house (paid-off mortgage + down payment) and have
an equity somewhere north of $100K. Again that $60K gain is non-taxable.

You are
definately better off buying a house, man. In most cases, the mortgage
would be cheaper than rent, plus you get a tax break and money back!

It *has* to be, at least over the long term. The landlord isn't giving
the renter something for nothing. He's taking out gains his money would
have made if invested elsewhere, or he's paying a mortgage himself and
counting on gains later. Either way the owner can do the same (pretend
you're renting to yourself). Mortgages (fixed ones anyway) don't go up
with property values, rents do.

In America, we don't have free health care or education, but the system
bends over backwards to help you buy a house. Take advantage of that
opportunity!!!

Absolutely! This is *particularly* true today. Low/no-down
mortgages. Mortgage interest deduction. Property tax deduction.
Very high capital gains exemption.

--
Keith

JazzMan wrote:

wrote:

JazzMan wrote:

BTW, car gets 26-33 MPG and I do all my own maintenance,
I don't have (and can't afford) a car payment and the mandatory
full coverage insurance that goes along with it. I got my first
raise in almost three years, all thirty five cents, and I don't
expect to get any more for the foreseeable future.

OK, I'll bite. Why on earth are you staying at that job and in that location?
I'd have shown that employer my butt cheeks walking out the door about two
years ago.

Because there aren't any jobs that I can find in my field
that pay any more than what I make now, in this area. Plus,
this area has a dirth of new jobs other than low-paid service
sector jobs, and I'd have to work two or three of those to
make what I make now.

Well, I've moved at least five times when the job situation in an area was too
bleak. One of those times I was about six months into a new house. I've also
lived at least 30 miles away from work on a few jobs. Speaking from my own
experience, I think you may be over-estimating the problems involved with these
choices.

The last real estate bubble in Texas was a disaster. I have a friend that
walked away from a house there. The S&L crisis was so bad at that point that
nobody even bothered going after him. If you think the area is experiencing
another bubble, that may be one of the best reasons not to buy. The other good
reason not to buy is that a house is best purchased about a year into a good
solid job. You don't have that.

Is your current job offering you health insurance or significant seniority?
IMO, those would be about the only perks that might make it worth staying.

I have _never_ found a job through newspaper ads. Newspaper ads are acts of
desperation by companies that can't fill a position through other channels
(done that), scam jobs that involve sales and pyramid schemes (walked out on a
couple of those during the interview), and institutional ads designed to build
a backlog of applicants and keep a company's stock up (my resume may still be
on file at IBM from 1975, but I don't expect a call from them).

What I have found that works is a killer targeted resume and cover letter, plus
good references, aimed at a small company that has been researched.

The cold hard fact is that staying in a dead-end job offers ZERO chance of
advancement. NONE, NIL, NADA. Work until you die or the company dies.
Switching to a different employer _may_ result in short term losses, but
provides a glimmer of hope of advancement. If that doesn't work out, switching
again not only builds your own confidence, but informs the next employer that
you are serious about not being stuck in a dead-end job. All of this is
calculated risk taking, but you are in an ideal position to take those risks.

Forget going back to school, except as an employee if the school offers free
courses to staff. Instead, read about two feet worth of job hunting and
negotiating books, starting with the old "What Color Is Your Parachute." Start
building a network of people that might tune you on to an upcoming job opening.
Start looking at costs of living in different areas. Become so informed in
your interests and the marketplace that people look to you for advice.

If you plan on practicing welding, consider art welding. There can be good
money in that, and you can be your own boss.

i was always told, "build it and they will come", and so far that has
continued to be the case.

--
C h a r l e s H e s t e r
General Contractor/Homebuilding Consultant
Hester Homes/Build a Little, Inc.
www.build-a-little.com
"Gene Seibel" wrote in message
om...
victor wrote in message
...
2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment. And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

Have owned three houses in three states and each time the payments
were very little more if not less than renting. Most important to us
is the freedom to paint or change our home any way we want.
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.

IMHO the real estate price explosion around here is part
of a speculative bubble, because even in spite of the
record foreclosure rates here lately prices are still

well, apparently reality hasnt cought up with people yet. it will.

skyrocketing. I had hoped that the bubble would burst
when the economy tanked three years ago, so that lower
prices combined with low interest rates would finally
give me the ability to buy a home, but now I see rates
going back up, and prices not budging a nickel. I don't

they will. itll take a couple % APR to cool things off, but they WILL
cool off. but then youll be stuck with a higher APR.

know what to do about that. This reminds me of the deal
in Amsterdam back in the 1600s when speculation drove
the prices of tulips up to astronomical levels. A single
tulip would cost more than a house. People would buy
tulips on the hopes that they would go up in price and
they could sell for a large profit. Sound familiar?

thats even stupider, because you cant live in a tulip bulb. just like
you cant live in a diamond, or eat gold.

i did the math when i was looking, and even a crappy 1br apt. was
running $800/mo a couple years ago. i ended up getting a 2br/2ba condo
in a quiet gated complex in a crappy part of town. my payment and HOA
fees are way less than rent would be on a similar place. property tax
ends up being about what my tax refunds are now. before, i was lucky to
get $300/yr back.

i would have rather had a house, but they were selling for twice what i
could afford just for a fixer upper.

condo life isnt for quirky, eccentric, or free-spirited people but i
dont have to worry about outside maintenance, fire or earthquake
insurance, since thats covered by the HOA. and those fees can go up-
theyve gone up $20/mo in the past 2 years.

JazzMan

"Mark" wrote in message
...

"victor" wrote in message
news
Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

I'm over 50 and looking at moving from apartment to house with a 30 year
mortgage. I'd prefer to stay in an apartment and let someone else worry
about all the maintenance issues. The apartment I rented 20 years ago,
however, is now renting for 3 times what I paid. If the same trend
continues, my rent is going to be close to $3,000 per month in 20 years.
I
can't afford not to buy a house.


Houses, tax, utilities, and maintenance are cheaper in the future?

Yep. When DH and I were at that point in our mortgage, our monthly payment
on a 2,200 square foot house in a nice suburban neighborhood was $314,

probably seemed like a decent amount of money at the time. im not
bitching about the $627/mo i pay, because in 10 or 20 years of increased
income and inflation, that $627 will look like beer money.

some people i know moved out of their condo they bought in the late 70's
and left it to their kids. the kids have to come up with a whopping
$250/mo to pay the mortgage. they could work at mc donalds part time and
still live well, if they wanted.

Scott en Aztlán wrote:

In misc.consumers, SoCalMike said:


which means a good time to have gotten in would have been yesterday, or
3 years ago. i couldnt afford to live where i do now if i had to buy now.


That's true for just about everyone in SoCal (and many other parts of
California). I thought that the 30% appreciation in Orange County was amazing,
until I heard that some inland counties in the Bay Area have seen appreciation
rates approaching 50% due to Bay Area workers looking for affordable housing.

I think I'm going to buy up some property in El Centro or Blythe; in 10 years
people in SoCal will be looking that far out and I'll make a killing...

well, riverside is out of my price range, as im guessing temecula or
lake elsinore is. im bout 8 miles from work and family in an urban area.
couldnt pay me enough to commute 30+ miles each way to work!

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:35:53 +0000, SoCalMike wrote:


IMHO the real estate price explosion around here is part
of a speculative bubble, because even in spite of the
record foreclosure rates here lately prices are still

well, apparently reality hasnt cought up with people yet. it will.

In some locations, sure. In other more "desirable" locations, perhaps
not. You know, L-L-L.

skyrocketing. I had hoped that the bubble would burst when the economy
tanked three years ago, so that lower prices combined with low interest
rates would finally give me the ability to buy a home, but now I see
rates going back up, and prices not budging a nickel. I don't

they will. itll take a couple % APR to cool things off, but they WILL
cool off. but then youll be stuck with a higher APR.

Certainly. TANSTAAFL.

know what to do about that. This reminds me of the deal in Amsterdam
back in the 1600s when speculation drove the prices of tulips up to
astronomical levels. A single tulip would cost more than a house.
People would buy tulips on the hopes that they would go up in price and
they could sell for a large profit. Sound familiar?

thats even stupider, because you cant live in a tulip bulb. just like
you cant live in a diamond, or eat gold.

Indeed. However, unlike tulips and gold, they aren't making any more land
in desirable locations. This area, for some unknown reason is very
desirable. Since the greenies have pretty much put the kibosh on any
large-scale new development, I'm not too worried about the short term. In
a year or two, I may pack it in and move someplace cheaper. I cannot
afford the taxes after I retire.

i did the math when i was looking, and even a crappy 1br apt. was
running $800/mo a couple years ago. i ended up getting a 2br/2ba condo
in a quiet gated complex in a crappy part of town. my payment and HOA
fees are way less than rent would be on a similar place. property tax
ends up being about what my tax refunds are now. before, i was lucky to
get $300/yr back.

Getting money "back" on taxes is a very bad way to look at the world.
Look at what you *pay*, not what the thieves return of your *own* money!

i would have rather had a house, but they were selling for twice what i
could afford just for a fixer upper.

I couldn't afffford a mansion on the coast next to Babs, either. One does
what one can. Renting is dumb, over the long term.

condo life isnt for quirky, eccentric, or free-spirited people but i
dont have to worry about outside maintenance, fire or earthquake
insurance, since thats covered by the HOA. and those fees can go up-
theyve gone up $20/mo in the past 2 years.

I may move into a condo, then again I find it cheaper to buy the services
that a condo-association would "offer". Sure, I've had to pay for a new
roof, and have done quite a bit of maintenance myself, but overall I think
I'm better off. Perhaps I'll change my mond over the next few years.


JazzMan

You know, the standard sig-seperator is two dashes followed by a space.
Intelligent news readers strip the sig when replying. Try it, you may
like it!

--
Keith

Keith wrote:

On Sun, 11 Jul 2004 19:35:53 +0000, SoCalMike wrote:


IMHO the real estate price explosion around here is part
of a speculative bubble, because even in spite of the
record foreclosure rates here lately prices are still

well, apparently reality hasnt cought up with people yet. it will.

In some locations, sure. In other more "desirable" locations, perhaps
not. You know, L-L-L.

skyrocketing. I had hoped that the bubble would burst when the economy
tanked three years ago, so that lower prices combined with low interest
rates would finally give me the ability to buy a home, but now I see
rates going back up, and prices not budging a nickel. I don't

they will. itll take a couple % APR to cool things off, but they WILL
cool off. but then youll be stuck with a higher APR.

Certainly. TANSTAAFL.

know what to do about that. This reminds me of the deal in Amsterdam
back in the 1600s when speculation drove the prices of tulips up to
astronomical levels. A single tulip would cost more than a house.
People would buy tulips on the hopes that they would go up in price and
they could sell for a large profit. Sound familiar?

thats even stupider, because you cant live in a tulip bulb. just like
you cant live in a diamond, or eat gold.

Indeed. However, unlike tulips and gold, they aren't making any more land
in desirable locations. This area, for some unknown reason is very
desirable. Since the greenies have pretty much put the kibosh on any
large-scale new development, I'm not too worried about the short term. In
a year or two, I may pack it in and move someplace cheaper. I cannot
afford the taxes after I retire.

i did the math when i was looking, and even a crappy 1br apt. was
running $800/mo a couple years ago. i ended up getting a 2br/2ba condo
in a quiet gated complex in a crappy part of town. my payment and HOA
fees are way less than rent would be on a similar place. property tax
ends up being about what my tax refunds are now. before, i was lucky to
get $300/yr back.

Getting money "back" on taxes is a very bad way to look at the world.
Look at what you *pay*, not what the thieves return of your *own* money!

i would have rather had a house, but they were selling for twice what i
could afford just for a fixer upper.

I couldn't afffford a mansion on the coast next to Babs, either. One does
what one can. Renting is dumb, over the long term.

condo life isnt for quirky, eccentric, or free-spirited people but i
dont have to worry about outside maintenance, fire or earthquake
insurance, since thats covered by the HOA. and those fees can go up-
theyve gone up $20/mo in the past 2 years.

I may move into a condo, then again I find it cheaper to buy the services
that a condo-association would "offer". Sure, I've had to pay for a new
roof, and have done quite a bit of maintenance myself, but overall I think
I'm better off. Perhaps I'll change my mond over the next few years.


JazzMan

You know, the standard sig-seperator is two dashes followed by a space.
Intelligent news readers strip the sig when replying. Try it, you may
like it!


Actually, the previous person that quoted my post mangled
it all up, I didn't write most of the above, only the part
about comparing the real estate speculation frenzy to the
tulip bulb speculation frenzy.

JazzMan (notice the two dashes below)
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Please reply to jsavage"at"airmail.net.
Curse those darned bulk e-mailers!
************************************************** ********
"Rats and roaches live by competition under the laws of
supply and demand. It is the privilege of human beings to
live under the laws of justice and mercy." - Wendell Berry
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Houses, tax, utilities, and maintenance are cheaper in the future?

nope... houses especially. thats why it makes sense to get it while you
can. waiting another 6 mos would have priced myself out of the market.

There's been some interesting discussion on this topic, along with
some fuzzy math -

....Comparing mortgage payments to rent is meaningless in the absence
of complete information on the mortgage, the house, and the
opportunity costs. After all, if you paid cash for the house, your
mortgage payments would be zero - therefore, it would be stupid to pay
more than that for rent, correct?

....There is no national housing market. There are thousands of
specific local markets - cities, neighborhoods, which side of the
street, etc. Price appreciation can differ dramatically even within a
single market, so those published averages may or may not mean
anything with regard to your particular house.

....As with the stock market, people love to talk about their successes
in real estate. But there are plenty of areas in the US where real
estate values have been stagnant or worse for decades. Typically, you
won't hear those stories in discussions like this. And the fact is,
many folks really have little idea how their house worked out
financially. Determination of return on investment is tough enough in
the stock market - in real estate, it's substantially more difficult.

....Even in many of the so-called success stories, the person could
(financially) have done as well or better in the stock or bond market,
without the expenses and other hassles involved in real estate. A
house that doubles in value in 10 years is returning about 7%
annually. Historically, I wouldn't want to bet on that.

None of this is to say you should or shouldn't buy a house. Buy a
house because you want to live in it, not because you think you'll
make a financial killing. If you happen to do well financially in
addition to the lifestyle benefits, that's icing on the cake...

victor wrote:
Ok, ok, ok. My friends and family keep nagging at me to stop renting
and buy a house. I'm so sick of them droning on about points-this and
closing costs-that. But the more I think about, the less sense it seems
to make for me. Here's why:

1. "You'll save a fortune on taxes." True. But the property taxes
will pretty much cancel out any savings you got on the income taxes.

Well let's see. I bought a house in 1978. I paid $100K for it, my
mortgage payments were about $650/month. So I had about $600/month or
$7,200 in interest. That saved me roughly $2,160/year in taxes. My
property taxes were about $1100. So my net _tax_ savings were about
$1060/year. Not a lot, but not peanuts either. (Of course, I had
other expenses...)

Oh, and my payments were so high partly because it was 1978 and
interest rates were rapidly rising to above 10%. A bank would have
charged us 11%, but I found my credit union would lend us money at
9.5%. But they only did 15-year mortgages.

2. "You're throwing rent money down the toilet." True. In all
likelihood, your mortgage payment will be twice your rent. By the time
you pay it off, you'll be drinking Ensure, wearing Depends, and too old
to maintain the house. Then you'll be wanting to move back to ... AN
APARTMENT! By that time, an assisted living apartment.

If your mortgage payment is twice your rent, you're probably paying
too much for the property. Buy a cheaper house. Most of the time the
mortgage payment is not more than 10% higher than rent for equivalent
housing.

If you buy a house at age 30 on a 30-year mortgage, you will have it
paid off at age 60. Most people are not drinking Ensure at 60. You
can probably expect to enjoy your house, rent/mortgage-free, for
another 10-20 years. In the meantime, your salary has probably been
going up while your mortgage payment remains constant. If you rent,
you can expect your rent payments to go up with inflation, or even
faster if you're in a hot housing market.

And _one_ simple technique can cut that 30 years in half: every month
you make an additional payment _to principal_, equal to the amount
your schedule indicates you are already paying to principal in that
month. This costs you maybe an extra $20 in the first month. By the
end of the mortgage, you're almost doubling your payment, but again by
that time your salary has gone up. And the nice thing about that
scheme is that you aren't legally bound by it. Any time the
additional payment is more than you can spare, you can reduce it. So
say you start out paying an extra $20/month. A few years alter it's
up to $50, and you can still afford it. A couple of years after that
it's $100, and getting kind of uncomfortable. So you stick with
$80/month _extra_ until/unless you get another raise and can afford to
go up some more. You will still chop many years off your mortgage,
probably have it paid off by the time you're 50. Still working,
getting good money. Now you can take the money you were paying for
the mortgage and use it for travel, buying gewgaws, or whatever you
want.

The only way you're going to be still in debt when you join the
Ensure/Depends set (say around age 80) is if you keep re-financing the
house to pull extra money out. In that case, of course, you have had
the benefit of whatever you spent that money on, so you're still ahead
of the game.

And let's be
realistic. You're NOT going to be like those power couples in Money
magazine who claim they're going to pay off the mortgage in 5 years and
retire in 10. Yeah, right.

No, but you can fairly easily pay off that mortgage in 15-20 years.

3. "It's one of the few things you buy that appreciate in value."
Assuming that you find someone who is willing to pay your inflated
selling price. Assuming that the neighborhood doesn't go down the
tubes. Assuming that the new house you buy will end costing as much as
you think it's going to (not!). Too many assumptions.

On the average, real property keeps pace with inflation. Choose a
house with good schools nearby and it will do better. As with
anything else, it pays to do some research. How are the schools.
What does the neighborhood look like. Is there an adjacent "better"
neighborhood that is expanding and might lift up your own? Or one
that is "worse" and might drag your area down?

We bought in Mar Vista, a part of L.A. that is near Marina del Rey.
When we bought the house, there were cars parked on lawns,
unmaintained yards, and one house with a screen of trees planted
right up against the sidewalk. Now there are no cars on lawns, all
the yards are mowed fairly often, and that screen of trees is gone.

We paid $100K for the house, plus interest, maybe $175K total. (On a
typical 30 year mortgage it would have cost us about $275K.) And our
house is now worth about $700K. If I had invested in mutual funds at
an average return of 10%, it would have grown to about $1 million.
At 15%, it would have grown to about $4 million, but 15% is hard to
get over the long term. (Remember it includes times like 1999-2002,
as well as the go-go 90s when mutual funds returned as much as 20%.)
So let's use that $1 million figure. As a pure investment, I could
have done about $300K better in mutual funds. But I also had a place
to live in for 25 years. Not too shabby.


4. Maintenance. I'm lucky if I have time to clean my apartment, let
alone a house. I've worked customer service for plumbing, HVAC, and
home maintenance companies before, and I hear how much people pay for
this stuff. In an apartment, it's all FREE.

Yes, but you keep paying for it, and your landlord can raise the rent
anytime he likes (unless your city has rent control). Tanstaafl.

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

No _that_ I'll agree with. Homeownership is good if you have the time
and energy to take care of the house, and if you make a good choice in
what and where to buy. Bad choices will cost you, as with any other
investment. So will failure to take care of your biggest asset.

If you don't want to bother with fixing plugged toilets (or calling a
plumber to do it for you) and mowing a lawn, then don't buy a house.
But if you're prepared to put a little work into it, it can be very
rewarding. It has to depend on your own circumstances and
preferences.

I will tell you one thing, though. Unless you're _very_ bad at
picking the house & location, you are better off buying a house than
doing _nothing_ to save for the future. A good investment can yield
more than a house, but a house will yield more than spending every
cent you earn.
--
I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America, and
to the republic which it established, one nation from many peoples, promising
liberty and justice for all.
Feel free to use the above variant pledge in your own postings.

On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:19:06 -0400, someone wrote:

In the end, I suppose it's a matter of personal preference. But I do
wish my home-owning friends would cut out the holier-than-thou attitude.

I have owned RE since I was 22 y.o. However, it should indeed be a
matter of preference. Esp. in large urban areas like NYC, some people
rent their entire lives. No big deal.

Tell your friends you don't want the responsibility of ownership.
Want to be able to pick up and move and not worry about selling. Not
handy so you'd have to pay for every little repair and would rather
the landlord had to find the contractors (LL's on staff Maint. Person
costs less for a days work than a contractor's 1 hr service call).

While your friends are fixing theor houses on weekends, you are out
having fun, heck you never even have to paint your walls. They just
rationalize their long hours on the house by telling themselves how
much money they are making.

-v.

"v" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 10 Jul 2004 05:19:06 -0400, someone wrote:
snip
Tell your friends you don't want the responsibility of ownership.
Want to be able to pick up and move and not worry about selling. Not
handy so you'd have to pay for every little repair and would rather
the landlord had to find the contractors (LL's on staff Maint. Person
costs less for a days work than a contractor's 1 hr service call).
snip

Excellent summary on how to rebut people who are butting in and nagging
someone to buy a house. As I recall, the OP wanted to rebut them on a bunch
of financial grounds like no property tax and free maintenance, some of
which were shaky at best and some totally implausible.

Personally DH and I hated renting: the lack of outdoor space, the common
walls, noise, trashy neighbors, landlords who wouldn't make needed
repairs...the list goes on. Of course some of that can be avoided in some
kinds of rental property, like detached houses in nice neighborhoods, but
those don't come cheap.