BOB URZ writes:

Sam Goldwasser wrote:

"momwithtools" writes:

Thanks for all the responses. More warnings than encouragement,
unfortunately. Can anyone think of an appliance or electronic you would
recommend the children take apart? Maybe one you consider "safe"? Sounds
like TVs are definitely out of the picture (no pun intended!).

Right, basically stay away from TVs, CRT monitors, abd microwave ovens.

The primary dangers from others devices are sharp sheet metal, and maybe
a few springs. Most equipment doesn't really have dangerous chemicals
as long as the kids wash their hands after handling the stuff. But
there may be plenty of just plain dirt and dust in used equipment.

Tape recorders and players, CD/DVD players and CD/DVD drives, boomboxes,
talking toys, remote controlled or motorized toys, and so forth should
be low risk. Things with motors will certainly be more exciting than
stuff like receivers without moving parts.

I agree that if they are too young, better to have someone do the taking
apart while explaining each part. But once they are handy with a screwdriver,
it will be difficult to prevent a curious mind from exploring....

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

Sam,

Do you think someone could resurrect a company like Heath used to
be and sell electronic kits these days? I sure thought that was great
fun and educational. But i fear the nintendo generation cares more
about flashing lights than what makes them work.

Unfortunately, those days are past. What would you propose assembling
that couldn't be bought for 1/10th cost and with better performance
and features?

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
contact me via the Feedback Form in the FAQs.

"NSM" writes:

"Sam Goldwasser" wrote in message
...

My guess would be that the people who think taking things apart is a
stupid
dangerous idea are those who had no strong interests in electronics or
engineering in general as a kid and only went into a technical field
for other reasons. I know this may be a gross over generalization but
I can't imagine someone who actually had a early passion for how things
work
to make such a statment.

Guess again. I just remember what dangerous things I did - and survived. Not
a smart way to learn. Why not show them how to build a crystal set, and
later to add some transistors to it?

OK, so what would you be doing today if the first time you started to take
something apart or do something that could lead to a shock, you Mom or Dad
raised bloody hell and sent you to your room without dinner? Maybe you'd
be a poet now instead....

I agree that there should be some guidance and limits on what to take apart
or whatever. But to just do show and tell isn't the same thing.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/
Repair | Main Table of Contents: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/
+Lasers | Sam's Laser FAQ: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/sam/lasersam.htm
| Mirror Sites: http://repairfaq.ece.drexel.edu/REPAIR/F_mirror.html

Note: These links are hopefully temporary until we can sort out the excessive
traffic on Repairfaq.org.

Important: Anything sent to the email address in the message header above is
ignored unless my full name is included in the subject line. Or, you can
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"Sam Goldwasser" wrote in message
...

Sam,

Do you think someone could resurrect a company like Heath used to
be and sell electronic kits these days? I sure thought that was great
fun and educational. But i fear the nintendo generation cares more
about flashing lights than what makes them work.

Unfortunately, those days are past. What would you propose assembling
that couldn't be bought for 1/10th cost and with better performance
and features?

Actually there are some kits. Some of the jobbers sell them, R P Electronics
is close to me and has a range. And Radio Shack still sell those spring wire
kits for radios etc. But complex kit building is like making your own window
glass - theoretically possible but ...

Still, they still do it in Australia. See 'Silicon Chip' magazine. And
Elektor and other UK magazines have not died yet.

--
N

Sam Goldwasser wrote:
BOB URZ writes:


Sam Goldwasser wrote:


"Asimov" writes:


"momwithtools" bravely wrote to "All" (11 Feb 05 17:50:25)
--- on the heady topic of "Is it safe for kids to take apart electronics?"

mo From: "momwithtools"
mo Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:10246

mo For an elementary school project, I'd like the children to take apart
mo some old electronics to get an idea of how things work, what goes into
mo each product, etc. My question is: Are there certain electronics or
mo appliances we should stay away from because of chemicals or something
mo else that would be unsafe for the children? Please advise.
mo Thank you!
mo Mom With Tools

The lead (Pb) on circuit boards is very toxic to children and can lead
to brain damage resulting in developmental retardation. Some
heatsinks have highly toxic beryllium oxide insulators which can be
dangerous if broken or scratched. Be sure they always wash their hands
well. Any cuts or scratches must be thoroughly flushed clean in
addition to disinfection. There are new studies implicating common
plasticizers (phtalates), which may cause reproductive abnormalities,
repressed immune system. It has been found that these are breaking
down in the environment into more toxic forms instead of dissipating.
Never let children chew on plastic pens, wire insulation, parts, etc,
which tend to leach such plasticizers. There are many unknown circuit
cleaning compounds which trace amounts may have deleterious effects.
The list is long but I'll probably get flamed for just these few...

I certainly agree that eating the components on circuit boards is not
advised but it's more likely you'll find something toxic playing in dirt than
on a most circuit boards. Beryllium is very rare in consumer electronics.

And, yes, if they are too young follow instructions not to lick their
fingers until thoroughly cleaned, thena show and tell would be better.

--- sam | Sci.Electronics.Repair FAQ Mirror:

All these years of sniffing solder fumes and non of my vital
body parts has fell off (yet)

I did have a TV fall of a 8' high shelf and bop me on the head and
body and knock me silly. So i guess TV can cause brain damage.


So that's why there are about 5 copies of this and your other related
post.

Yea. must be severe damage.

Dam news server keeps screwing up. My message window stays up and i get
no confirmation of the send sometime. Then there was some error message
about east and west coast servers. Then some encryption bs error
message. So i kept sending it because it said it did not send and
the window was still up.

bob

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

"BOB URZ" bravely wrote to "All" (12 Feb 05 12:37:41)
--- on the heady topic of " Is it safe for kids to take apart electronics?"

BU From: BOB URZ
BU UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:10355

BU All these years of sniffing solder fumes and non of my vital
BU body parts has fell off (yet)


But most here caught on that you posted the same reply 4 times.
It makes one wonder about the rest. ;-)

Actually, I sometimes come across stuff I wrote 10 or 20 years ago and
I seemed to be much sharper then. Maybe the Pb is getting to me also.
G

A*s*i*m*o*v

.... Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well.

Asimov wrote:

"BOB URZ" bravely wrote to "All" (12 Feb 05 12:37:41)
--- on the heady topic of " Is it safe for kids to take apart electronics?"

BU From: BOB URZ
BU UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:10355

BU All these years of sniffing solder fumes and non of my vital
BU body parts has fell off (yet)


But most here caught on that you posted the same reply 4 times.
It makes one wonder about the rest. ;-)

Actually, I sometimes come across stuff I wrote 10 or 20 years ago and
I seemed to be much sharper then. Maybe the Pb is getting to me also.
G

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob




A*s*i*m*o*v

... Bad Beer Rots Our Young Guts But Vodka Goes Well.


----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Bob Urz wrote:


Asimov wrote:

"BOB URZ" bravely wrote to "All" (12 Feb 05 12:37:41)
--- on the heady topic of " Is it safe for kids to take apart
electronics?"

BU From: BOB URZ
BU UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:10355

BU All these years of sniffing solder fumes and non of my vital
BU body parts has fell off (yet)


But most here caught on that you posted the same reply 4 times.
It makes one wonder about the rest. ;-)

Actually, I sometimes come across stuff I wrote 10 or 20 years ago and
I seemed to be much sharper then. Maybe the Pb is getting to me also.
G


The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob

Hi...

Makes me wonder how many of us 50 years ago used our mouths
as a third hand to hold a piece of solder... like I did; often
leaving it there during a whole job

I sure hope there's not a 2000's equivalent that's going
to later be discovered has bitten today's younger folks.

Take care.

Ken

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...


Asimov wrote:

"BOB URZ" bravely wrote to "All" (12 Feb 05 12:37:41)
--- on the heady topic of " Is it safe for kids to take apart
electronics?"

BU From: BOB URZ
BU UNCENSORED Newsgroups. Xref: aeinews sci.electronics.repair:10355

BU All these years of sniffing solder fumes and non of my vital
BU body parts has fell off (yet)


But most here caught on that you posted the same reply 4 times.
It makes one wonder about the rest. ;-)

Actually, I sometimes come across stuff I wrote 10 or 20 years ago and
I seemed to be much sharper then. Maybe the Pb is getting to me also.
G

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob


I never have had much luck with lead free solder, never seems to make good
joints.

Ken-You sure you didn't have a piece of solder in your mouth when you
wrote that last sentence ;-)

I know what you mean, and I did the oral 3rd hand thing a time or 2
also. Studied electronics for 2 years at a local vocational high school
in the 70's before taking it up in college. One of the instructors was
this crusty former TV tech. I recall one time in lab a guy was
soldering this way & he smacked him on the back of the head. Surprised
the kid didn't SWALLOW the solder instead of spitting it out.

Dan

Ken Weitzel wrote:
Makes me wonder how many of us 50 years ago used our mouths
as a third hand to hold a piece of solder... like I did; often
leaving it there during a whole job

I sure hope there's not a 2000's equivalent that's going
to later be discovered has bitten today's younger folks.

Take care.

Ken

In article
outelectronicequipment
..com,
"momwithtools" wrote:

For an elementary school project, I'd like the children to take apart some
old electronics to get an idea of how things work, what goes into each
product, etc. My question is: Are there certain electronics or appliances
we should stay away from because of chemicals or something else that would
be unsafe for the children? Please advise.

Caution them to keep their hands out of their mouths until they have
washed them, and make a particular point of warning them about lead,
which is in most solder.

Otherwise, go for it.

Isaac

momwithtools wrote:
For an elementary school project, I'd like the children to take apart
some
old electronics to get an idea of how things work, what goes into
each
product, etc. My question is: Are there certain electronics or
appliances
we should stay away from because of chemicals or something else that
would
be unsafe for the children? Please advise.
Thank you!

Just let them take apart stuff with batteries instead of anything that
plugs into the wall.

If they are really into it, get them some kits to build. When I was
probably 8-10, I had the radio shack kits that comes with jumper wires
and springs. You can build a fair amount of cool stuff with it
safely.

Do you think someone could resurrect a company like Heath used to
be and sell electronic kits these days? I sure thought that was great
fun and educational. But i fear the nintendo generation cares more
about flashing lights than what makes them work.

I'm 36, and my Dad built a Heathkit color TV when I was a kid. Not
sure of the size, maybe 25, or 27"... maybe a bit smaller. First TV I
ever heard of that had a remote control (which was ultrasonic!).

The channels were displayed digitally on the screen in white letters.
The tuning was analog, where you had a board that pulled out that
looked like a switchboard. You'd literally take jumper wires into one
of the tuning slots, and connect up what channel number it represented.
(so ch. 4 would be 0-4).

I think there was also a jumper for uhf/vhf, then there was a multiturn
pot that you'd adjust to actually tune in the station. It was
something else!

The tuning constantly had to be adjusted, just like any other tuning on
an analog TV.

Sounds like the one I built - beautiful full console cabinet, etc. GR-2000,
25". I ended up with 3.5 of them as each time I had a problem and found a
"dead" one, I had to take the whole thing to get the part I needed. The
high voltage board & particularly the flyback seemed to be the weak point in
the system. Other than that it was a fun TV with remote, built-in dot
generator, on-screen channel display, etc. I learned a lot from that one -
thanks for the memory.

WT

wrote in message
ups.com...
Do you think someone could resurrect a company like Heath used to
be and sell electronic kits these days? I sure thought that was great
fun and educational. But i fear the nintendo generation cares more
about flashing lights than what makes them work.

I'm 36, and my Dad built a Heathkit color TV when I was a kid. Not
sure of the size, maybe 25, or 27"... maybe a bit smaller. First TV I
ever heard of that had a remote control (which was ultrasonic!).

The channels were displayed digitally on the screen in white letters.
The tuning was analog, where you had a board that pulled out that
looked like a switchboard. You'd literally take jumper wires into one
of the tuning slots, and connect up what channel number it represented.
(so ch. 4 would be 0-4).

I think there was also a jumper for uhf/vhf, then there was a multiturn
pot that you'd adjust to actually tune in the station. It was
something else!

The tuning constantly had to be adjusted, just like any other tuning on
an analog TV.

James Sweet wrote:

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob



I never have had much luck with lead free solder, never seems to make good
joints.



One wonders how many Printed Circuit Board
equivalents of lead one improperly discarded
automotive battery contains?

My guess would be thousands of circuit cards worth
of lead.

How many car batteries are out there?

-Chuck Harris

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:55:00 -0500, Chuck Harris wrote:
James Sweet wrote:

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

I never have had much luck with lead free solder, never seems to
make good joints.

One wonders how many Printed Circuit Board
equivalents of lead one improperly discarded
automotive battery contains?
My guess would be thousands of circuit cards worth
of lead.
How many car batteries are out there?

'They' are so dead set against lead being put into the ground.
Just where the hell do 'they' think it came from in the first place?

Lead comes from places in the ground where it does not harm
people. Lead acid batteries dumped back into the ground are
too often dumped where it harms many people. But then you
knew that. You were just being facetious.

drwxr-xr-x wrote:
'They' are so dead set against lead being put into the ground.
Just where the hell do 'they' think it came from in the first place?

James Sweet wrote:

Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

We have lead free solder at work and I can't tell the difference
between it and the old 62/38 tin/lead that we all used to use. It
flows freely on any material that the old stuff worked on, and it
mixes freely with the old stuff, too, when I need to repair something
old.

Yes, I was skeptical too, but I've seen absolutely no problems with
it. I THINK what we have is from Kester, but I'm really not sure. I
can check if anyone is interested.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:55:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob



I never have had much luck with lead free solder, never seems to make good
joints.



One wonders how many Printed Circuit Board
equivalents of lead one improperly discarded
automotive battery contains?

My guess would be thousands of circuit cards worth
of lead.

How many car batteries are out there?


A good point, this Lead free is so much BS driven by the nutters. IF
lead solvency is such a big problem, what about lead in car wheel
weights, every time it rains, it washes over the weights then straight
into the waste water system. And many many roofs in Europe, the rain
washes over the lead sheathing then into the waste water.

And lead water distribution pipes in much of the UK.

There's precious little evidence its a problem. It's just the stupid
EU has this "precautionary principle" enshrined that more or less
states that if you think something may be a problem ,you should act,
even although there is no evidence to support it.

Barry Lennox

"Barry Lennox" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 09:55:00 -0500, Chuck Harris
wrote:

James Sweet wrote:

The whole Lead issue is a hot button in the electronic industry. It
started in Europe, and has spread. Essentially, the mandate is out to
get the lead out of solder in the manufacturing process. I really don't
quite know how this is going to affect the service industry yet. I still
have my trusty 60/40 Kester next to the bench. Sometime in the future i
might have to have separate solder pencils for non leaded solder,
special solder, and a method to ID what it is. Time will tell.

Bob



I never have had much luck with lead free solder, never seems to make
good
joints.



One wonders how many Printed Circuit Board
equivalents of lead one improperly discarded
automotive battery contains?

My guess would be thousands of circuit cards worth
of lead.

How many car batteries are out there?


A good point, this Lead free is so much BS driven by the nutters. IF
lead solvency is such a big problem, what about lead in car wheel
weights, every time it rains, it washes over the weights then straight
into the waste water system. And many many roofs in Europe, the rain
washes over the lead sheathing then into the waste water.

And lead water distribution pipes in much of the UK.

There's precious little evidence its a problem. It's just the stupid
EU has this "precautionary principle" enshrined that more or less
states that if you think something may be a problem ,you should act,
even although there is no evidence to support it.

Barry Lennox

Maybe? But the more prosperous Romans used lead drink containers and look
where it got them. Quite a few of the most rich (Emperors etc.) went mad!
Lead fumes are supposed to be bad too; see also unleaded gasoline!
On a similar ecological note; we still have the well for household water
supply that we dug 35 years ago; before a municipal water supply became
available, and when there were fewer neighbours.
That water still tests 'good', bacteriologically; but in the intervening
years neighbours have used herbicides and pesticides, often just to try and
get a 'greener' lawn! Or just to get rid of dandelions, which when young are
edible btw.
I wouldn't drink the stuff now! Oddly our grass+clover hardly ever tended to
(well I did stick some limestone on it a few years ago, mainly because
someone gave it to me!), only gets cut occasionally, and looks fine!
Most landfills are/must be toxic pits of potential pollution, complete with
the lead from old car batteries, tyres, rotting furniture, old vinyl etc.
etc. ... you name it!
And the Great Lakes, biggest, now polluted, freshwater resources in the
world? And next the oceans? Polluted? From run offs?
Shame on us!
PS You know how radioactivity is measured in half lives? e.g. Plutonium with
a half life of say 10,000 years!
I wonder what is the 'half life' of one car battery weighing say 25 pounds!
Several hundred? One thousand years? Maybe in the future we'll be digging up
those 'landfills' to recover "recyclable products"?

"Terry" wrote in message
.. .

Maybe? But the more prosperous Romans used lead drink containers and look
where it got them. Quite a few of the most rich (Emperors etc.) went mad!
Lead fumes are supposed to be bad too; see also unleaded gasoline!

And Mad Hatters WERE mad - mercury!

N

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:59:28 -0330, "Terry"
wrote:


A good point, this Lead free is so much BS driven by the nutters. IF
lead solvency is such a big problem, what about lead in car wheel
weights, every time it rains, it washes over the weights then straight
into the waste water system. And many many roofs in Europe, the rain
washes over the lead sheathing then into the waste water.

And lead water distribution pipes in much of the UK.

There's precious little evidence its a problem. It's just the stupid
EU has this "precautionary principle" enshrined that more or less
states that if you think something may be a problem ,you should act,
even although there is no evidence to support it.

Barry Lennox

Maybe? But the more prosperous Romans used lead drink containers and look
where it got them. Quite a few of the most rich (Emperors etc.) went mad!
Lead fumes are supposed to be bad too; see also unleaded gasoline!

Many UK cities used lead water pipes for the past 150 years, much of
this has now been replaced, but during WW2 many of the records were
lost and a lot of piping in some cities is still lead. The UK EPA is
well aware of this and monitor the blood/lead level in the cities
known to be the worst. No significant amounts have ever been found, at
least due to this means of ingress. In the very worst cities, they add
a small amount of lime to the water to keep it slightly alkaline, thus
ensuring that no lead leaching can occur.

Yes, there is no doubt that Tetra Ethyl Lead is very toxic, metallic
lead is nothing like that. The key issue of any poison is
"bio-availability" and metallic lead is not that easy to get into your
system.

There has been some very well documented studies on landfills in the
Silicon Valley area (that for 30-40 yrs had more than the usual
proportion of solder and lead dumped into them) and lead leachate is
not a problem. Much to the disgust of the EPA who went in there like
screaming lunatics.

And the same applies around the old lead mines in Leadville and other
communities in CO.

There simply is no evidence that lead leaching is a problem.

However, many of the substitute solders for "lead-free" are more toxic
than 63:37 lead-tin.

The EU is the problem rather than lead. The world will one day wake up
to this giant hoax by the masters of bureacracy!


On a similar ecological note; we still have the well for household water
supply that we dug 35 years ago; before a municipal water supply became
available, and when there were fewer neighbours.
That water still tests 'good', bacteriologically; but in the intervening
years neighbours have used herbicides and pesticides, often just to try and
get a 'greener' lawn! Or just to get rid of dandelions, which when young are
edible btw.
I wouldn't drink the stuff now! Oddly our grass+clover hardly ever tended to
(well I did stick some limestone on it a few years ago, mainly because
someone gave it to me!), only gets cut occasionally, and looks fine!
Most landfills are/must be toxic pits of potential pollution, complete with
the lead from old car batteries, tyres, rotting furniture, old vinyl etc.
etc. ... you name it!
And the Great Lakes, biggest, now polluted, freshwater resources in the
world? And next the oceans? Polluted? From run offs?
Shame on us!
PS You know how radioactivity is measured in half lives? e.g. Plutonium with
a half life of say 10,000 years!
I wonder what is the 'half life' of one car battery weighing say 25 pounds!
Several hundred? One thousand years? Maybe in the future we'll be digging up
those 'landfills' to recover "recyclable products"?

Maybe we will, when lead gets scarce, but bear in mind that most large
landfills for maybe 20 years now have been recycling car batteries,
this is an easy and relatively low-cost process. OK, there's always a
few slip through, but see above, the lead has proven to be very stable
in the ground, with no significant leachate problems.

Barry Lennox wrote:
There has been some very well documented studies on landfills in the
Silicon Valley area (that for 30-40 yrs had more than the usual
proportion of solder and lead dumped into them) and lead leachate is
not a problem.

Got any cites for those studies? I'd like to see them.

--E

Is "battery recycling" by industry real? There is a report that
alleges, "NO".

Here's the LINK and full text, below:

http://www.things.org/~jym/greenpeac...recycling.html

The Myth of Automobile Battery Recycling

by Madeleine Cobbing and Simon Divecha

A global Greenpeace investigation of automobile lead-acid battery
collection programs has revealed a massive flow of these extremely
toxic wastes from heavily industrialized countries -- particularly
Australia, Japan, the U.K. and the U.S. -- to many Third World
countries, particularly in Asia.

The main factors causing the lead battery waste trade are typical to
all waste trade schemes: in industrial countries, the environmental
and occupational health regulatory cost of operating lead battery
recycling facilities is ever-increasing, and the prices offered for
secondary lead are low. It is simply not profitable to operate
secondary lead smelters in many industrial countries. Battery brokers
are finding more profitable markets in places where workers are paid
little, and environmental and workplace regulations are weak and/or
unenforced.

The end result of this free trade in toxic waste: thousands of workers
and children suffering from lead blood poisoning, rivers and air
loaded with lead emissions, and big profits for the lead battery
brokers and manufacturers.

The Inherent Dangers of Lead Recycling
Lead is a basic element and can not be destroyed. For thousands of
years, people have extracted lead from ores for use in a variety of
products. Now, more than half of the lead extracted by humans is used
is in batteries. Other major uses include semi-finished sheetmetal and
pipes, alloys, cable sheathing, additives in gasoline and other
compounds, and ammunition.

Lead and people do not belong together, and human society should avoid
its use at all costs. For example, historians have tied the decline of
the Roman Empire partially to declining intelligence caused by the use
of lead in drinking vases and other utensils.

Children are especially vulnerable to the effects of lead. Even
relatively small amounts of lead can cause permanent lowering of
intelligence in children, potentially resulting in reading disorders,
psychological disturbances, and mental retardation. Other effects of
lead on children include kidney disease, and gouty arthritis.

The Decline of Lead Battery Recycling in Industrial Countries
Lead batteries and lead battery smelters have been transferring out of
industrial countries in recent years, as environmental regulations
have tightened and domestic lead prices have dropped. In the U.K., for
example, the secondary lead industry faces a "critical situation,"
according to a recent issue of the Metal Bulletin. The U.K.'s Lead
Development Association warned that "the current low lead price,
combined with increasing associated environmental costs ... has made
it less profitable" to operate secondary lead smelters. Industry
officials in the U.K. are predicting that most lead smelters there
will close within the next four years.

The secondary lead industry has already shifted out of North America
en masse. According to the Journal of Metals, by 1987, "the inability
to economically install emission controls and purchase liability
insurance forced closure of over half of the secondary lead smelters
in North America." The U.S. Bureau of Mines reported that "waste
disposal is becoming a very significant expense and is often a
difficult task to perform," and linked the problems to the closures.

The Bureau of Mines report added: "Foreign smelters can afford to bid
a higher price for scrap because their capital, labor and
environmental costs are lower than U.S. producers."

The surviving lead battery smelters in North America are facing fates
similar to those of the U.K. smelters. According to one metals
journal, secondary lead "prices continued to drop in 1992 and in 1993
because of low demand and ever-bulging inventories."

According to the American Metal Market, "Scrap trade sources have said
the growing importance of poorer countries as buyers in the
international battery scrap market is a reflection of the difficulty
some U.S. operators have had in assuring that they can comply with
increasingly strict environmental regulations."

Lead Industry's Recycling Greenwash
Without a global dumping ground, the lead-acid battery manufacturing
industry would likely be forced to become clean, by eliminating the
use of lead in batteries. The demise of lead smelting companies in
industrial countries, after all, reflects industrial societies' desire
to be contaminated by lead no more. Unfortunately, the flourishing
international trade in lead-acid battery wastes is providing battery
manufacturers with cheap and easy escape valves for their toxic
wastes.

Just as the primary plastics industry promoted plastics "recycling"
when citizens in industrial countries began fighting for plastics
packaging bans, the lead-acid battery industry is using the cloak of
"recycling" to hide the impact of its products' wastes, and to thus
reduce the threat to its 'status quo' use of toxics in production
processes.

On May 7, 1991, Battery Council International (BCI), a trade
association representing the international lead battery industry,
distributed a press releases proclaiming: "Consumers Need to Be Jump
Started on the Importance of Recycling Lead Batteries." This press
release opens with classic words of 'greenwash':

"Recyclable lead batteries work hard behind the scenes keeping heart
surgeons operating when a storm knocks out electricity, starting cars
on sub-zero winter mornings, and providing power for important U.S.
military missions, including igniting the launch of Patriot Missiles
in the recent Persian Gulf War. ... To protect our environment and to
make the best use of this essential source of power, consumers need to
recycle all lead batteries."

The battery industry's campaign to make legislators and consumers
believe in the magic of lead battery recycling has been remarkably
successful, despite the continual decline of the lead recycling
industry in industrial countries. Model laws crafted by BCI and
adopted in many parts of the U.S., for example, require retailers to
accept used car batteries when consumers purchase new ones. Several
U.S. states require a cash deposit on new battery purchases, which is
refunded to the consumer after they return the used battery to the
retailer.

When consumers pay cash recycling deposits, and return their used
automobile lead-acid batteries to their retailers, they often suppose
that the promised "recycling" means that the world's environment will
benefit. Greenpeace and other investigations of the international
lead-acid battery waste trade, however, reveal that this battery
"recycling" can exact a terrible toll from workers, children and the
environment in the Third World.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Major Lead Waste Exporting Countries:

Australia -- In 1992, Australia exported over 17 million kilograms
(17,000 tonnes) of lead battery scrap to Hong Kong, India, Indonesia,
Japan, New Zealand, Papua New Guinea, the Philippines, Taiwan and
Thailand.


Japan -- According to a government source, Japan exports 30,000 tonnes
of lead-acid auto batteries to Southeast Asia each year.


U.K. -- In 1992, the U.K. exported 578 tonnes of lead waste, including
lead battery waste, to Indonesia, Pakistan, the Philippines, British
Indian Ocean Territories, Bulgaria and South Korea. This rose to 3,124
tonnes in the first 9 months 1993; the major destinations were the
Philippines, Indonesia, India and Brazil.


U.S. -- In the first nine months of 1993, the U.S. exported 41,527
tons of lead scrap. More than 78% of these wastes went to Canada,
which has relatively weak lead waste pollution control and liability
regulations. Most of the remaining lead scrap exports were shipped to
Brazil, South Korea, China and India. In 1990 and 1991, the U.S.
exported 76,876 and 94,471 tons of lead scrap, respectively. Other
major importing countries of U.S. lead scrap in the 1990s have
included: Indonesia, Mexico, the Philippines, South Africa, Taiwan,
Thailand and the U.K. By comparison, the U.S. imported just 10,000
tonnes of lead scrap in 1990.

Note: The figures for "lead scrap waste" exports do not differentiate
between lead-acid battery waste and many other kinds of lead waste,
such as slags and ashes from lead smelters and lead cable scrap.
Customs and waste export regulations in most industrial countries do
not regulate these waste streams separately. Many industrialized
countries do not regulate the export of these wastes at all. (Sources:
Australia - Australian Bureau of Statistics, Commodity Export
Statistics, 1992, compiled by Greenpeace Australia; U.K. - U.K.
Customs & Excise, Trade Statistics, 1992-93, compiled by Greenpeace
U.K.; Port Import Export Research Service, Trade Statistics 1990 -
1993, compiled by Greenpeace U.S. Also, numerous issues of American
Metal Market; Battery and EV Technology, July 1991.)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Third World Reality of Lead-Acid Battery Recycling
In 1993, Greenpeace researchers followed the toxic battery waste trade
to numerous lead-acid battery recycling facilities in Indonesia, the
Philippines and Thailand. This research followed similar
investigations conducted by the Center for Investigative Reporting in
Taiwan in 1990, and other researchers in Brazil and Mexico in recent
years.

Pieced together, these investigations reveal that industrial countries
are not shipping their batteries to environmentally sound recycling
operations. In fact, U.S., U.K. and Australian automobile batteries
are being burned in extremely dangerous and dirty Third World
factories. These secondary lead smelters are discharging acid into
waterways, dumping residual wastes outside property gates, and
poisoning workers, villagers and their families.

The investigations reveal the "double standards" inherent in all types
of toxic waste trade. These double standards are reflected in all of
the lead waste recycling processes that can potentially harm people
and the environment, including transportation, workplace and ambient
air emissions, storage and handling of scrap batteries, and slag
disposal.

For example, people working in lead recycling facilities in the U.S.
are required to wear full-body protective gear to shield themselves
from hazardous fumes and burning liquids. In one facility in the
Philippines, Greenpeace witnessed factory workers pulling batteries
apart with their bare hands. In Indonesia, villagers reported that
lead ash from the factory falls in their food at night.

Here are some brief summaries of the researchers' findings, country by
country:

Brazil
Beginning in 1987, scores of workers at two lead battery importing and
recycling plants in Brazil quit or were fired from their jobs after
their health had failed. The people had worked at Tonolli and FAE
S.A., two lead battery smelters located in Sao Jose dos Campos,
Brazil. City public health officials announced in 1991 that the lead
recycling companies were responsible for poisoning the workers with
lead.

According to Dr. Ezio Zaghetto, a Sao Jose dos Campos public health
official, "Our tests [of the worker's blood and urine] showed that
working at Tonolli and FAE causes chronic lead intoxication." [1]

According to CETESB (the State of Sao Paolo Environmental Protection
Agency), neighbors of Tonolli believe that the plant frequently
releases black dusts, which settle on nearby farmland, and may have
killed cattle in October 1988. CETESB believes that the emissions of
lead and cadmium may also be causing highly elevated levels of lead in
the blood of children living nearby. [2] CETESB fined FAE in 1988 for
numerous violations of occupational health and environmental
regulations, including problems with the smelter itself. [3] Despite
these findings, Tonolli and FAE are still operating and are two of
Brazil's largest lead battery waste importers.

Worker health & safety has also been a problem at Microlite, the
largest of the battery smelters in Brazil and part of Saturnia
Batteries Enterprise. High levels of lead were found in the blood of
workers and in the air . Microlite imports battery waste from the U.K.
and the U.S.

Indonesia
Indonesia is one of the few countries in Asia which has banned some
waste imports. Although Indonesian customs authorities temporarily
impounded over 100 container loads of lead-acid battery waste in
various ports, new containers are still being imported into the
country.

Environment and health officials have also been fighting to control
battery processors since mid-1991. Indonesia's federal Environment
Ministry (BAPEDAL) closed one lead-acid battery recycling facility in
Surabaya in May 1991, and another in Bekasi in September 1992. In
December 1992, the regional government in Cirebon ordered the closure
of ten lead acid battery recycling factories because of pollution and
occupational health violations. [4]

Indonesia's efforts to prosecute individual lead-acid battery
importers have failed to stem the foreign waste invasion. In the first
five months of 1993, the U.K. shipped over 700 tonnes of lead acid
batteries to Indonesia, compared to 200 tonnes shipped from the U.K.
in 1992. Australia is the main source of the invasion; in 1992, it
exported more than 11,000 tonnes of battery scrap to Indonesia.

Greenpeace visited IMLI, the largest battery waste importing plant in
Indonesia, located south of Surabaya. When it began operation in the
late 1980's, villagers believed it was a wood processing plant.
Instead, IMLI burns 60,000 tonnes of lead acid batteries at the plant
each year. Clouds of smoke and ash from the factory have been
descending on the community since IMLI began operation, rendering
nearby rice fields infertile. Local residents complain that ashes from
the factory often fall in their wells and on their food. Many
villagers say they are sick, that everyone has a cough, and half of
them cough blood.

BAPEDAL sampled effluent from IMLI and determined it to be extremely
acidic. Documents obtained by Greenpeace revealed lead levels in IMLI
workers and local villagers between two and three times greater than
the acceptable U.S. occupational health standards.

IMLI also dumps its waste slag -- a mixture of lead and plastic from
the furnaces -- outside its factory gates. Villagers collect the slag,
take it home, and smelt it in woks over open fires in their backyards.
The lead spills onto the ground as it is poured off, while molten
plastic floats to the top. The villagers then try to sell the
extracted lead content of the slag, while exposing themselves even
more to the foreign waste invasion. People throughout Java are
practicing this crude method of recycling wastes from another country.

Mexico
In December 1993, Morris Kirk, the operator of a Mexican lead battery
recycling company called Alco Pacific, was sentenced to 16 months in a
California state prison, and fined US$2.5 million for illegally
transporting lead battery wastes from the U.S. to Mexico. [5] He had
shipped the wastes across the border under the pretext of recycling.
Mexican law allows hazardous waste imports for recycling but not for
disposal.

Kirk's Alco Pacific smelter in Ojo de Agua, Mexico, imported hundreds
of truckloads of automobile batteries between 1988 and 1991. It faced
growing resistance from people living nearby. Alco Pacific's smelter
closed in early 1991 and Kirk declared bankruptcy, leaving behind a
massive pile of car battery wastes from the U.S.

The 15,500 tonne pile of waste batteries will be cleaned up by a
corporate co-defendant in the case, RSR Industries of Dallas, Texas,
which is one of the world's largest automobile battery recycling
companies. RSR Industries allegedly supplied most of the batteries to
Alco Pacific through its California-based subsidiary, Quemetco. [6]

Car batteries were not the only toxic lead wastes from the U.S.
planned to be "recycled" at the ill-fated Alco Pacific smelter:
According to U.S. Environmental Protection Agency records, the
transnational corporation, DuPont, unsuccessfully tried to ship
millions of pounds of lead slag from its New Jersey plant to Alco
Pacific in 1990. [7]

A Greenpeace investigation of the plant in 1992 found that
uncontrolled fires were burning in the lead battery waste pile. This
investigation was documented in "Wasting the World," a Greenpeace
Toxic Trade campaign video released during the December 1992 meeting
of the Basel Convention. [8]

David Eng, a district attorney for Los Angeles County, confirmed that
numerous fires have been burning in Alco Pacific's toxic battery pile
since the smelter closed in 1991. Eng also reported that cows at a
nearby dairy farm have died after drinking lead-contaminated water
flowing from the smoldering battery dump, and residents of the
surrounding towns are suffering from skin and respiratory diseases.
[9]

Since Alco Pacific's closure, U.S. lead battery waste shipments to
Mexico have virtually stopped, according to American Metal Market
newspaper.

Philippines
In the first 6 months of 1993, waste traders from Australia, Japan,
New Zealand, the U.K. and the U.S. shipped over 16,000 tonnes of
battery scrap to the Philippines.

These foreign wastes are violating a national law banning such toxic
waste imports. The Philippine Department of Environment and Natural
Resources ruled in 1991 that "the importation of waste batteries which
are considered as hazardous materials is not allowed" under Republic
Act No. 6959. [10]

The vast majority of the waste shipped to the Philippines in 1993 went
to a lead smelter near Manila, Lead Smelters Inc., which recently
changed its name to Philippines Recyclers Inc. (PRI). Despite emission
controls devices on the plant, it is polluting the nearby river and
surrounding rice fields. Local residents report that discharge from
the plant into the river often runs black, and local residents suffer
from burning eyes and sore throats.

Pollution from lead battery imports into the Philippines is not
confined to the PRI vicinity. Battery wastes also find their way to
small battery recyclers, like Parker Batteries, in the back streets of
Manila. At Parker Batteries, workers wear no protective clothing, and
gasp in unventilated rooms. Residents and workers around Inmarflex, a
secondary lead smelter in Manila, suffer from severe breathing
problems; some of them even cough up blood.

Greenpeace researchers visited Parker Batteries and found it almost
impossible to breathe because of sulfuric acid fumes. Lead waste and
sulfuric acid drains into open sewers in the surrounding slums, and
slags from the lead smelter lie on the open ground next to the plant.

Workers at Parker Batteries exhibit signs of lead contamination with
teeth blackened by years of inhaling lead. Official occupational
health and safety studies have found that workers at both Parker
Batteries and PRI have "significantly higher levels of lead" in their
blood compared to workers from other industries using lead. [11]

Taiwan
The San Francisco-based Center for Investigative Reporting (CIR) first
looked at the lead battery trade while producing the hour-long waste
trade documentary, "Global Dumping Ground," and a companion book, both
of which were released in 1990. Their investigative trail led to
Taiwan, where CIR researchers found two factories importing lead-acid
batteries from the U.S.: ACME and Thai Ping. [12]

These factories were already under investigation by the Taiwanese
government for causing severe health and environmental problems, and
eventually, the government of Taiwan ordered a ban on all lead-acid
battery imports. Taiwan's Environmental Protection Agency has since
replaced this ban with a new licensing procedure for lead waste
importers. This procedure has dramatically limited, but not entirely
stopped, lead scrap imports. [13] Export records from Australia
indicate that Australian companies were still shipping lead-acid
batteries to Taiwan, through May 1993. [14]

The investigations were triggered in 1987 when a sick ACME employee
went to Dr. Jung-Der Wang complaining of faintness and weakness in his
arms and legs. Dr. Wang, a Harvard-educated specialist in
environment-related health problems, determined that the worker
suffered from an extremely high level of lead in his blood -- twice
the limit for U.S. standards. Dr. Wang surmised that the worker had
been poisoned on the job.

With the help of the Taiwan government, Dr. Wang launched an
investigation into the extent of contamination and poisoning amongst
ACME workers. He found that 31 of the 64 ACME workers suffered from
lead poisoning, and some of them had blood lead levels three times
higher than U.S. occupational health limits.

The pollution from ACME's lead smelter did not stop at the factory
gates. Dr. Wang examined 36 children at a nearby school and found that
22 of them had elevated levels of lead in their blood. In addition, a
Taiwanese newspaper reported that ACME had dumped thousands of tonnes
of waste in a open field near the factory, and that the waste was
threatening the water supply of the surrounding community.

As the ACME investigation progressed, citizens living near an even
larger lead smelter, Thai Ping, became concerned about local lead
emissions. Protesters gathered at the Thai Ping factory and smashed
windows.

Like the ACME factory, Thai Ping was poisoning its workers. In April
1990, Dr. Michael Rabinowitz conducted an investigation into the
health of Thai Ping workers. He found that they had blood lead levels
high enough to be at risk of developing kidney and nerve problems. He
also examined school children near the Thai Ping smelter and found
that the children's teeth had twice the lead level of children living
in the capital city of Taipei.

Dr. Rabinowitz warned that the "children can be expected to have
impaired intelligence, slower physical growth and some behavioral
disorders -- trouble paying attention, hyperactivity."

In 1990, the Taiwan Environmental Protection Administration (EPA)
decided to halt all battery imports due to the extensive
contamination. [15] "Don't import from the United States," said Taiwan
EPA Director Eugene Chien. "It causes too many problems for us." [16]

Thailand
In May 1986, the U.S. subsidiary of a Danish company, Bergsoe Metal
Corp., went bankrupt, and closed its lead battery recycling plant in
St. Helens, Oregon. According to the Oregon Department of
Environmental Quality, Bergsoe's facility poisoned air, groundwater,
and soil beyond the plant's property with lead and arsenic.[17]
Bergsoe's U.S. subsidiary then tried to operate as a toxic waste
battery broker, and unsuccessfully requested the governments of
Pakistan, South Korea and Taiwan to import lead battery wastes. [18]

Today, Bergsoe Metal Corp., operates a lead battery recycling plant in
Suraburi, Thailand, which imports lead waste from industrialized
countries such as Australia, Japan and the U.S. Australia shipped 166
tonnes of battery scrap to Thailand in 1992, and over 6,000 tonnes in
the first nine months of 1993. [19]

In Suraburi, north of Bangkok, an ornate Buddhist archway leads to a
temple. It also marks the entrance to Bergsoe's lead smelter for
processing imported lead-acid batteries. This lead recycling plant
breaks up the batteries and smelts them, along with their plastic
casings.

Bergsoe's plant is emitting a toxic haze of chlorine, lead and other
hazardous substances, sure to leave a legacy as disastrous as its
former smelter in Oregon. Bergsoe dumps toxic slags behind their
Suraburi factory, where the toxics leach into the ground. Greenpeace
researchers took samples of Bergsoe's discharges and found high levels
of lead.

Local residents complain that the plant emits white smoke, mostly at
night, which makes their eyes burn, makes them nauseous, and gives
them a strange taste in their mouths. According to Suchart
Somkhunthod, a neighbor of the factory and an infrequent employee of
Bergsoe when "huge containers come from overseas," the smoke emitted
"smells bad and makes me feel nauseous."

Incredibly, Bergsoe enjoys a positive reputation with the Thai
government, receiving an "outstanding factory" award from the Ministry
of Industry in 1988. It is now trying to expand its Suraburi plant.
[20]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Sources:
[1] Michael Kepp, "Workers walk at Brazil units," American Metal
Market, March 4, 1991.

[2] CETESB, report on environmental and public contamination by lead,
at the farm "Sol da Mata," near Tonolli, March 6, 1989.

[3] "Fae leva multa depois de ser elogiada por alemaes," Vale do
Paraiba, March 1988.

[4] Jakarta Post articles and Indonesian government records.

[5] Los Angeles Times, December 16, 1993.

[6] Andrea Ford, "Firm Agrees to Clean Up Tijuana Site," Los Angeles
Times, June 16, 1993.

[7] U.S. Environmental Protection Agency records.

[8] Greenpeace International.

[9] Los Angeles Times, December 16, 1993.

[10] Letter from Delfin J. Ganapin, Office of the Undersecretary for
Environment and Research, Philippine Department of Environment and
Natural Resources, to Raul Ch. Rabe, Director General, Office of
American Affairs, Department of Foreign Affairs, Manila, 3 April 1991.

[11] Felicidad T Castro, M.D., Chief, Health Control Division,
Occupational Safety and Health Centre, Philippines, "The Biological
Levels of Lead in Selected Workers," paper submitted to the second
National Occupational Safety and Health Congress, September 1991,
Quezon City, Philippines.

[12] Center for Investigative Reporting with Bill Moyers, Global
Dumping Ground: the International Traffic in Hazardous Waste (Seven
Locks Press, U.S., 1990).

[13] American Metal Market, October 19, 1992.

[14] Australian Bureau of Statistics, Commodity Export Statistics,
1990-93.

[15] Letter from Taiwan Environmental Protection Agency to Greenpeace,
1990.

[16] Center for Investigative Reporting.

[17] Brent Walth, "Blind Faith," Wilamette Week, September 24-30,
1987.

[18] U.S. EPA records.

[19] Australian Bureau of Statistics, Commodity Export Statistics,
1990-93.

[20] Klomjit Chandrapanya, "Indecent Disposal," FOCUS, The Nation
(Thailand), September 2, 1993.



Barry Lennox wrote in message . ..
On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 13:59:28 -0330, "Terry"
wrote:


A good point, this Lead free is so much BS driven by the nutters. IF
lead solvency is such a big problem, what about lead in car wheel
weights, every time it rains, it washes over the weights then straight
into the waste water system. And many many roofs in Europe, the rain
washes over the lead sheathing then into the waste water.

And lead water distribution pipes in much of the UK.

There's precious little evidence its a problem. It's just the stupid
EU has this "precautionary principle" enshrined that more or less
states that if you think something may be a problem ,you should act,
even although there is no evidence to support it.

Barry Lennox

Maybe? But the more prosperous Romans used lead drink containers and look
where it got them. Quite a few of the most rich (Emperors etc.) went mad!
Lead fumes are supposed to be bad too; see also unleaded gasoline!

Many UK cities used lead water pipes for the past 150 years, much of
this has now been replaced, but during WW2 many of the records were
lost and a lot of piping in some cities is still lead. The UK EPA is
well aware of this and monitor the blood/lead level in the cities
known to be the worst. No significant amounts have ever been found, at
least due to this means of ingress. In the very worst cities, they add
a small amount of lime to the water to keep it slightly alkaline, thus
ensuring that no lead leaching can occur.

Yes, there is no doubt that Tetra Ethyl Lead is very toxic, metallic
lead is nothing like that. The key issue of any poison is
"bio-availability" and metallic lead is not that easy to get into your
system.

There has been some very well documented studies on landfills in the
Silicon Valley area (that for 30-40 yrs had more than the usual
proportion of solder and lead dumped into them) and lead leachate is
not a problem. Much to the disgust of the EPA who went in there like
screaming lunatics.

And the same applies around the old lead mines in Leadville and other
communities in CO.

There simply is no evidence that lead leaching is a problem.

However, many of the substitute solders for "lead-free" are more toxic
than 63:37 lead-tin.

The EU is the problem rather than lead. The world will one day wake up
to this giant hoax by the masters of bureacracy!


On a similar ecological note; we still have the well for household water
supply that we dug 35 years ago; before a municipal water supply became
available, and when there were fewer neighbours.
That water still tests 'good', bacteriologically; but in the intervening
years neighbours have used herbicides and pesticides, often just to try and
get a 'greener' lawn! Or just to get rid of dandelions, which when young are
edible btw.
I wouldn't drink the stuff now! Oddly our grass+clover hardly ever tended to
(well I did stick some limestone on it a few years ago, mainly because
someone gave it to me!), only gets cut occasionally, and looks fine!
Most landfills are/must be toxic pits of potential pollution, complete with
the lead from old car batteries, tyres, rotting furniture, old vinyl etc.
etc. ... you name it!
And the Great Lakes, biggest, now polluted, freshwater resources in the
world? And next the oceans? Polluted? From run offs?
Shame on us!
PS You know how radioactivity is measured in half lives? e.g. Plutonium with
a half life of say 10,000 years!
I wonder what is the 'half life' of one car battery weighing say 25 pounds!
Several hundred? One thousand years? Maybe in the future we'll be digging up
those 'landfills' to recover "recyclable products"?

Maybe we will, when lead gets scarce, but bear in mind that most large
landfills for maybe 20 years now have been recycling car batteries,
this is an easy and relatively low-cost process. OK, there's always a
few slip through, but see above, the lead has proven to be very stable
in the ground, with no significant leachate problems.

"Denny" wrote in message
om...
....
A global Greenpeace investigation of automobile lead-acid battery
collection programs has revealed a massive flow of these extremely
toxic wastes from heavily industrialized countries -- particularly
Australia, Japan, the U.K. and the U.S. -- to many Third World
countries, particularly in Asia.
....

Not just lead. Most ship breaking is done in India and similar places now -
ships full of tons of PCBs and asbestos amongst other hazards.

N

"NSM" wrote in message news:l%TUd.22028$TB.9903@edtnps84...

"Denny" wrote in message
om...
...
A global Greenpeace investigation of automobile lead-acid battery
collection programs has revealed a massive flow of these extremely
toxic wastes from heavily industrialized countries -- particularly
Australia, Japan, the U.K. and the U.S. -- to many Third World
countries, particularly in Asia.
...

Not just lead. Most ship breaking is done in India and similar places
now -
ships full of tons of PCBs and asbestos amongst other hazards.

N



When it comes down to it what is recyclable in a domestic VCR say.
I know Southampton University developed an electrostatic
system for separating different plastics but I think that was for
large car type pieces.
There's been no gold, to speak of, on edge connectors since the 1970s.
Just leaves some aluminium and steel. I know there is a
scheme for recycling some mobile phones as calculators etc
but generally ICs are just a mixture of processed sand and plastic
with a small amount of mixed metals and no possible re-use.

electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~diverse