I have a customer who has an office with five rooms. He would like me to install a video camera at the front door and then be able to see who walks into the office lobby on his computer. The individual rooms' computers are not networked but he does have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone in the office with a computer who is logged on to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal on their computer. Is there a way to do this? Thanks, Lenny

on 7/26/2013, supposed :
I have a customer who has an office with five rooms. He would like me to
install a video camera at the front door and then be able to see who walks
into the office lobby on his computer. The individual rooms' computers are
not networked but he does have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way
to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone in the office with a
computer who is logged on to that WIFI will be able to see the camera
signal on their computer. Is there a way to do this? Thanks, Lenny

Take a look at Lorex Live Ping Wireless Network cameras.
Ethernet or WiFi connect. Can view on smart phone, tablet or PC.
640x480 resolution.
Night vision too at 30 ft.
AC powered.
No remote server needed for remote viewing.
Router with WPS needed.



--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ---

On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a customer who has an office with five rooms.
He would like me to install a video camera at the
front door and then be able to see who walks into
the office lobby on his computer. The individual
rooms' computers are not networked but he does
have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way
to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone
in the office with a computer who is logged on
to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal
on their computer. Is there a way to do this?
Thanks, Lenny

The video is going to saturate the wi-fi to the point where the wi-fi
will be useless. Even one camera belching uncompressed video will do
that. The only way you're going to get it installed without
complaints is to run the necessary wires. You might be able to do it
using a dual band router, with the cameras on one band, and the users
on the other, but even that is problematic due to interference from
other offices. My worse wi-fi systems are in glass wall buildings,
looking out over the city or at other glass wall buildings, and seeing
hundreds of wi-fi routers.

If you want to do it cheaply, there are kits of cameras and camera
server available. I kinda like Swann:
http://www.swann.com/region/usa/entry/us
because they're commonly available and cheap. Not the best, not
great, just available and cheap. Since this is a repair newsgroup, I
suggest you buy a replacement fan for the camera server in advance. It
will blow in about 6 months, and continue to blow every 6 months.

For running wires, I use CAT5, not coax cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220994815246
One pair for video, one pair for power, and 2 cameras per cable. About
150 ft maximum.

However, if you want to actually identify someone on the video, forget
about composite video cameras. They're too fuzzy and lack resolution.
For that, you'll need an IP camera. CAT5 wiring, with one camera per
cable.

If all the networked PC's need to view the video, you will find that
the composite video camera servers allow exactly one connection per
user. There are various ways to get the camera monitor image onto a
PC via the network, none of which are stock and all of which are
messy. I don't want to go there now.

Besides clarity, the other advantage of IP cameras is that network
users can login to the camera directly. There's usually an ugly and
buggy ActiveX control, that only works with Internet Exploder, for
logging into and controlling a camera from a PC. That will give you
the local viewing. Most IP cameras allow more than one user to login.
I don't recall if there's an upper limit. However, if you want one
person to view more than one camera at a time, or worse, control more
than one camera at a time, then you'll need an IP camera server and a
PC.
http://www.ispyconnect.com
http://www.zoneminder.com
With a camera server, anyone on the network that connects to the
camera server can see (and control) all the cameras.

Hint: Don't use wi-fi for devices that don't move.

Good luck.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:38:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a customer who has an office with five rooms.
He would like me to install a video camera at the
front door and then be able to see who walks into
the office lobby on his computer. The individual
rooms' computers are not networked but he does
have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way
to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone
in the office with a computer who is logged on
to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal
on their computer. Is there a way to do this?
Thanks, Lenny

The video is going to saturate the wi-fi to the point where the wi-fi
will be useless. Even one camera belching uncompressed video will do
that.

That mey be true, but he doesn't need a camera belching uncompressed
video. I use IP cameras from Panasonic (higher quality but expensive)
and Foscam (inexpensive but some firmware bugs to work around). For
the need the OP is describing, he can have the camera send one jpeg
snapshot per second so wi-fi has plenty of bandwidth even if all five
users are watching. And, no controller is needed.

snip
For that, you'll need an IP camera. CAT5 wiring, with one camera per
cable.
But CAT5 wiring is sometimes impossible to run without a major hassle.
Wi-fi will work.
snip
Hint: Don't use wi-fi for devices that don't move.
I disagree. Wire is best, but wi-fi works for hard to reach places
whether they move or not.

Pat

On Sun, 28 Jul 2013 07:51:25 -0400, Pat wrote:

On Sat, 27 Jul 2013 18:38:49 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 26 Jul 2013 14:41:02 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

I have a customer who has an office with five rooms.
He would like me to install a video camera at the
front door and then be able to see who walks into
the office lobby on his computer. The individual
rooms' computers are not networked but he does
have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way
to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone
in the office with a computer who is logged on
to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal
on their computer. Is there a way to do this?
Thanks, Lenny

The video is going to saturate the wi-fi to the point where the wi-fi
will be useless. Even one camera belching uncompressed video will do
that.

That mey be true, but he doesn't need a camera belching uncompressed
video. I use IP cameras from Panasonic (higher quality but expensive)
and Foscam (inexpensive but some firmware bugs to work around). For
the need the OP is describing, he can have the camera send one jpeg
snapshot per second so wi-fi has plenty of bandwidth even if all five
users are watching.

Well, the OP mumbled something about having 5 rooms. Presumably that
means 5 computahs monitoring the video. I don't know of any camera
that can do multicast, so the JPEG every 1 second becomes a JPG every
200 msec. 640 x 480 will suffice, but I have some cameras that are
doing 1024 x 768. Grinding the file size with:
http://www.jiscdigitalmedia.ac.uk/guide/print-size-and-file-size-calculator
the 640x480 will be about 200 KBytes or 1.6Mbits. Send 5 of those
(one per computah) over the LAN and you use 8 mbits/sec of bandwidth.
That will saturate a 10baseT connection, so presumably the office is
using 100baseT or 1000baseT. For wireless, the best you can do with
ordinary 802.11g is 25 mbits/sec thruput. Spectacular claims of
802.11n performance tend to be science fiction as I've noticed that in
the presence of interference, most office wireless lans end up
settling down to about 12 mbits/sec thruput. (Connection speed is
about twice the throughput). So for wireless, the 8 mbits/sec of
camera traffic will suck about 2/3 of the available wireless bandwidth
(because only one wi-fi transmitter can be on at a time).

And, no controller is needed.

As I mumbled, IP cameras will allow multiple connections, but if there
are more than one camera, it's rather tricky for a given PC to view
more than one camera at a time. My crystal ball sees more than one
camera as NONE of the installs that I've done every stopped at one
camera.

For that, you'll need an IP camera. CAT5 wiring, with one camera per
cable.

But CAT5 wiring is sometimes impossible to run without a major hassle.
Wi-fi will work.

I have yet to see an "impossible" cable run. Expensive, messy, and
awkward, are all common, but not impossible. One client absolutely
insisted that his landlord would have a fit if he modified his offices
in any way. I always present the landlord with a copy of the work
order and the building permit application, but that didn't seem to
help. When a tenant moves out, the wiring becomes the landlords
problem, so I want him involved. I've only been turned down once.
However, this customer kept insisting it was "impossible". When he
wasn't looking, I ran flat ethernet cable under the carpeting. He
just went on to obstruct me in other ways.

I haven't had to run anything through the sewers, drains, air plenums,
or water pipes, but if necessary, those are also possible. More
commonly, I use powerline networking (HomePlug), phone line networking
(HomePNA), or ethernet over CATV coax (MoCA). MoCA is quite fast and
reliable, but not cheap.

Hint: Don't use wi-fi for devices that don't move.

I disagree. Wire is best, but wi-fi works for hard to reach places
whether they move or not.

Think of airtime (the amount of time your trashmitter is on the air)
as being a valuable resource. With wi-fi, only one transmitter can be
belching RF at a time. Using wi-fi to connect laptops, tablets,
PDA's, smartphones, game pads, and such make sense because they need
to be used almost anywhere. However, devices that are continuously
passing traffic, like TIVO, Roku, and security cameras, are simply
wastes of airtime. Since they spew data continuously, there's no
airtime left for other users with laptops etc. Things that don't need
to be wireless, should not be connected via wireless.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, July 26, 2013 5:41:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have a customer who has an office with five rooms. He would like me to install a video camera at the front door and then be able to see who walks into the office lobby on his computer. The individual rooms' computers are not networked but he does have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone in the office with a computer who is logged on to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal on their computer. Is there a way to do this? Thanks, Lenny

There will only be one camera and I misspoke about the rooms. Yes there are five but it will most likely be viewed in just two, or perhaps three. Can I hard wire the cameras to each room and then somehow hard wire into the individual computers? Lenny

wrote:

On Friday, July 26, 2013 5:41:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
I have a customer who has an office with five rooms. He would like me to install a video camera at the front door and then be able to see who walks into the office lobby on his computer. The individual rooms' computers are not networked but he does have WIFI. He says he thinks that there is a way to put the video signal over the WIFI so that everyone in the office with a computer who is logged on to that WIFI will be able to see the camera signal on their computer. Is there a way to do this? Thanks, Lenny

There will only be one camera and I misspoke about the rooms. Yes there are five but it will most likely be viewed in just two, or perhaps three. Can I hard wire the cameras to each room and then somehow hard wire into the individual computers? Lenny


Why complicate things? Video monitors are cheap and can be looped,
or you could use a modulator and some old NTSC TV sets for monitors.
Converting analog video to digital uses up computer's resources. What
are people supposed to do, work or watch the video?


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

For running wires, I use CAT5, not coax cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220994815246
One pair for video, one pair for power, and 2 cameras per cable. About
150 ft maximum.

A friend wants to wire his home for cameras. The front door is the most
troublesome: inside the door is the living room, high ceilings and windows
running almost the full height.

How does one get power (and if using wired cameras, data) to/from a camera?

I told him it would require significant ripping up of the sheetrock
(textured, of course) and re-doing it all after the install. He isn't
tempted.

Any suggestions how to do this that isn't so messy?

Thanks.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 00:11:26 -0700, DaveC wrote:

For running wires, I use CAT5, not coax cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220994815246
One pair for video, one pair for power, and 2 cameras per cable. About
150 ft maximum.

A friend wants to wire his home for cameras. The front door is the most
troublesome: inside the door is the living room, high ceilings and windows
running almost the full height.

How does one get power (and if using wired cameras, data) to/from a camera?

Older cameras run on 24VAC or DC. Newer cameras run on 12VAC or DC. I
use CAT5 wiring for the composite video cameras. One pair of wires
for the video. One pair of wires for the AC or DC to run the camera.
Two cameras per CAT5 cable. There are interface adapters that will do
both video and DC:
Individual cables:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300931365922
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300931368390
http://www.ebay.com/itm/111129491333
Conglomerated video + DC:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/251258535747
There are some other configurations.

For IP cameras, I either use PoE (power over ethernet) or supply power
locally for the camera.

I told him it would require significant ripping up of the sheetrock
(textured, of course) and re-doing it all after the install. He isn't
tempted.

I rarely have to touch the sheet rock. When I used to do my own
wiring, I had a 6ft long semi-flexible drill bit and guide bar for
drilling into the wall via the attic or from under the flooring.
Something like this:
http://constructionmanuals.tpub.com/14027/css/14027_214.htm
http://www.lashen.com/vendors/greenlee/hole_making.asp
http://www.licensedelectrician.com/Store/RT/Bumper-Balls.htm
I used an old tennis ball, or when desperate, a soda can.

I try to run blue flex electrical raceway (smurf tube) instead of
putting the wires directly into the wall, especially between floors.
The advantage is that it can later be used for other cables, such as
alarm, camera, TV, fiber optic, thermostat, etc.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-3-4-in-x-100-ft-Blue-Electrical-Non-Metallic-Tubing-12007-100/100404116
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Carlon-1-2-in-x-25-ft-Electrical-Non-Metallic-Tubing-12005-025/100569078
Check your local building code before using this stuff as some
jurisdictions insist on metal conduit.

I sold most of my tools years ago and now hire much younger
masochistic contractors who seem to enjoy working in crawl spaces.

Any suggestions how to do this that isn't so messy?

Yes.
- Ask a professional electrician, alarm, or telephone installer
how it's done. There are plenty of non-obvious tricks,
- Learn by available rework type electrical boxes and techniques.
- Get a good borescope camera so you can see inside the wall.
- Be prepared to spend about $2,000 on the necessary tools.
- Be prepared to make a few expensive mistakes while learning.
- Consult your insurance agent to evaluate your financial exposure.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

DaveC wrote:

For running wires, I use CAT5, not coax cable.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/220994815246
One pair for video, one pair for power, and 2 cameras per cable. About
150 ft maximum.

A friend wants to wire his home for cameras. The front door is the most
troublesome: inside the door is the living room, high ceilings and windows
running almost the full height.

How does one get power (and if using wired cameras, data) to/from a camera?

I told him it would require significant ripping up of the sheetrock
(textured, of course) and re-doing it all after the install. He isn't
tempted.

Any suggestions how to do this that isn't so messy?


Wiremold.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 17:36:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Any suggestions how to do this that isn't so messy?

Wiremold.

I keep a few pieces of different types of plastic and metal wiremold
in the car to show customers. Most of the stuff came from jobs where
I had to rip the stuff out at the customers request.

None of my customers have ever approved using wiremold. The problem
was that they don't want to look at it. For long runs, it had to go
run horizontally along the wall near the floor. That worked fine
until it runs into a doorway. If I was lucky, and they had a hollow
door tread, so I could continue the run (ignoring the awkward
transition around the door frame molding). If not, I was stuck.

I did use surface conduit once when I installed a structured wiring
system. That's where all the communications cables arrive in a single
neat bundle. Same with cube farms, where individual desks tended to
be isolated "islands" with no adjacent walls. However, none of the
surface wiring was ever wrapped around a doorway.
https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=structured+wiring

If desperate, you could run the CAT5 on the outside of the building.
However, that only works with single wall construction. I'm not very
proud of this mess, but it was the only way it could be done.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/SCZ%20Victorian%20wiring%20mess.html

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

Jeff Liebermann wrote:

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 17:36:46 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

Any suggestions how to do this that isn't so messy?

Wiremold.

I keep a few pieces of different types of plastic and metal wiremold
in the car to show customers. Most of the stuff came from jobs where
I had to rip the stuff out at the customers request.

None of my customers have ever approved using wiremold.


Whenever possible, i ran it to a corner of the room, then into the
ceiling. I have also removed wood trim along a ceiling and hid wire
under it. I used to do a lot of work in schools and offices. I would
give two quotes, completely hidden, or Wiremold. Sometimes a third
option was to let their maintenance men pull the wire, as long as the
customer signed off that they were responsible for any damaged
materials. I had real fun moving a school intercom console at one
school. The school board had moved their offices to the high school,
and took over the main office. 15 years later, they built a new office
and wanted the main office returned to where it belonged.
Unfortunately, they had added a dozen classrooms between moves, and
there were two, three foot thick foundations separating the two parts.
Luckily, I found an abandoned 16 pair '1A1' phone cable between the two
rooms and managed to find a dozen pairs that were still usable.


The problem
was that they don't want to look at it. For long runs, it had to go
run horizontally along the wall near the floor. That worked fine
until it runs into a doorway. If I was lucky, and they had a hollow
door tread, so I could continue the run (ignoring the awkward
transition around the door frame molding). If not, I was stuck.


Thick baseboards can be pulled, and then saw a notch off the back
with a table saw. I had real fun about 15 years ago. I had to run a 25
pair cable into a new studio at a radio station. The entire building was
cement blocks, and the only way to route the wire was to enlarge
existing holes, with cables already filling them. The station manager
told me it was impossible. He freaked the next day when he came in and
the work was done. then he wanted to know how I cut square holes around
the wires without cutting the existing cables. ;-)


I did use surface conduit once when I installed a structured wiring
system. That's where all the communications cables arrive in a single
neat bundle. Same with cube farms, where individual desks tended to
be isolated "islands" with no adjacent walls. However, none of the
surface wiring was ever wrapped around a doorway.


Good old 'Telepoles'?


https://www.google.com/search?tbm=isch&q=structured+wiring

If desperate, you could run the CAT5 on the outside of the building.
However, that only works with single wall construction. I'm not very
proud of this mess, but it was the only way it could be done.
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/SCZ%20Victorian%20wiring%20mess.html


I have never done a job that looked that bad. Even for a temporary
install.


I hate to run anything outside, without putting it in conduit and
preferably underground.

He could use a wireless camera with multiple receivers, but that's
still susceptible to causing and dealing with interference. It could
even let a crook see exactly where the cameras are aimed, long before
entering the building.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

On Tue, 30 Jul 2013 21:53:40 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
wrote:

None of my customers have ever approved using wiremold.

Whenever possible, i ran it to a corner of the room, then into the
ceiling. I have also removed wood trim along a ceiling and hid wire
under it.

That works if the object of the exercise was to the wire into the
suspended ceiling (for an office) of the attic (for a home). If the
rafters are sitting on top of the stud wall, access is difficult for
going through the wall, so surface conduit is probably a good
solution. The problem is that none of my customers want to see the
CAT5 cable running up the wall. Hiding it behind molding seems to
only be acceptable for baseboard molding. I've milled the back of
corner and baseboard molding for running wires, but that looks awful
on top of a textured dry wall. It's also a problem with walls that
are not quite square or true. Nobody notices until I run something
straight up the wall. Then, everything looks angled or serpentine.

I don't have a good feel for the relative cost of going through the
wall versus surface molding. It's been a long time since I've done
it. My guess(tm) is that going through the wall with wire is about
50% more expensive than surface molding, and structured wiring, about
twice as expensive.

Luckily, I found an abandoned 16 pair '1A1' phone cable between the two
rooms and managed to find a dozen pairs that were still usable.

In my office phone and utility room, I recently ripped out a small
pickup truck load of 25 pair cable from the phone room. Every time
someone would move into the office, the phone crew would add cable
instead of figuring out how to use the existing cable. There's still
about 2-3 more pickup truck loads "stored" in the ceiling. This is
after the cleanup (I'm not done).
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/150%20Felker%20St.html
The Type 66 punch down blocks were fully populated with two Merlin
phone controllers and expanders.

Thick baseboards can be pulled, and then saw a notch off the back
with a table saw.

That solves a non-problem. Horizontal runs, along walls and between
doors are not a problem. It's getting around doors that's a problem.

Incidentally I like to rip out the lower 2-3 inches of the drywall and
baseboard, and use plastic baseboard raceway conduit. I've only done
one such job and it was slick and easy. They didn't have this stuff
when I was doing it, so we made our own out of repurposed vinyl
shapes:
http://www.cableorganizer.com/wire-tracks/installation-wiretrack.htm
However, it still leaves the problem of getting around the doors.

Incidentally, I've also run fiber optic cables through walls, which
has the advantage of being slightly smaller than CAT5 cable:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/fiber_01.html
The downside is the cost of the media converters and my batting
average at terminating the ends.

I had real fun about 15 years ago. I had to run a 25
pair cable into a new studio at a radio station. The entire building was
cement blocks, and the only way to route the wire was to enlarge
existing holes, with cables already filling them. The station manager
told me it was impossible. He freaked the next day when he came in and
the work was done. then he wanted to know how I cut square holes around
the wires without cutting the existing cables. ;-)

I'll pretend to forget about spending a weekend pounding on a concrete
filled reinforced concrete block wall with a star drill (after
destroying TWO Skil hammer drills). I slit lengthwise a piece of EMT
scrap conduit to cover the existing cable, and pounded a hole next to
the existing cable hold. I was lucky and missed the rebar.

I did use surface conduit once when I installed a structured wiring
system. That's where all the communications cables arrive in a single
neat bundle. Same with cube farms, where individual desks tended to
be isolated "islands" with no adjacent walls. However, none of the
surface wiring was ever wrapped around a doorway.

Good old 'Telepoles'?

What's a telepole?

This was vinyl molding on top of the carpet, where everyone walking by
can trip over it. I bought a roll and found myself replacing several
high traffic lengths about every 6 months. The metal versions last
longer, but were much more expensive.

After the wiring was done, someone accidentally discovered that the
floor mounted power receptacles included an adjacent low voltage
conduit raceway that would have been perfect for running ethernet and
phone. The original carpet crew simply covered over the access covers
leaving only the AC power receptacles exposed. Grrrr...

http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/pics/drivel/slides/SCZ%20Victorian%20wiring%20mess.html
I have never done a job that looked that bad. Even for a temporary
install.

Long story and I'll spare you the details. I was several months out
of surgery for a heart bypass. I didn't want to do the wiring, didn't
really feel up to doing the wiring, but was stuck with doing it if I
wanted the computer networking part of the job. The owner didn't care
what it looked like as long as it was cheap. I didn't do the actual
wiring, so there are some oddities, such as the lack of squared
corners, lack of supporting cable clamps, and bad choice of colors.
Like I said, I'm not very proud of that mess.

I hate to run anything outside, without putting it in conduit and
preferably underground.

I wanted to do outside conduit, but the cost was prohibitive. Note
that this was an old Victorian single wall style structure, with
existing outside plumbing and wiring. Adding some CAT5 didn't seem
like much a problem.

He could use a wireless camera with multiple receivers, but that's
still susceptible to causing and dealing with interference. It could
even let a crook see exactly where the cameras are aimed, long before
entering the building.

If he used a wireless IP camera, he might barely be able to coexist
with existing wi-fi systems. If he used an analog wireless TV camera,
it would obliterate any wi-fi within range because it's on the air
100% of the time and leaves absolutely no airtime for the wireless.



--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558