[mickgeyver]

I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

[mickgeyver]

On Sep 25, 7:02*pm, mickgeyver wrote:
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. *I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

dang G00gle.....

"http://picasaweb.google.com/UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe#"

[Michael A. Terrell]

mickgeyver wrote:

On Sep 25, 7:02 pm, mickgeyver wrote:
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

dang G00gle.....

"http://picasaweb.google.com/UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe#"


It looks like you used cheap phenolic PCB materials. Fiberglass is a
lot more stable.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver
wrote:

I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al


Use 0.032" media. Bake under a flat press upon receipt of the bare
boards.

Hand assemble... no wave solder, no IR oven.

Those are the only techniques that yield 100% positive results.

Any automated process will certainly have a poorer prime pass yield.

That is, unless the PCB maker was real good at stress relief during the
making of the boards.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver
wrote:

I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.


http://picasaweb.google.com/UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink

Is that a Polysulfone board?

With 0.020 inch anything, and all that copper, it's going to warp no
matter what you do. Any differential heating, on one side of the
board, is going to cause the board to bend.

I ran into the same problem years ago with wave and hand solder in
thin boards. Going to thicker boards, with some kind of stiffener was
not an option because of weight limitations. However, you apparently
don't have that problem. Try 0.032 or 0.0625 boards, keep the heating
to a minimum, and it might work.

I think you might be entertained by what happens to just the board,
without any components. Clamp one end of the board into a vice. Heat
one side of the board with a hot air gun or soldering iron. The
copper will expand, causing the board to warp. In other words, the
large copper areas are what's causing the warping.

You can somewhat minimize the effect by pre-heating and post-heating
the board. We found that freon vapor reflow soldering produced
absolutely flat boards. That because the entire board was heated
evenly, and cooled down evenly and slowly. Heat one side of the board
more than the other (i.e. differential heating) and it's going to warp
unless you're very careful on cooling it down evenly. When we went to
surface mount devices, small traces, and 0.5 oz Cu traces, the warping
was gone.

0.020 is thin enough that the board can be straightened by the
mounting arrangement. Instead of the round brass tube, it might be
possible to use an aluminum tube, with two grooves milled into the
inside diameter. Your current board does not have enough unused area
along the lengthwise edges to do this, but it can be expanded
somewhat. This also has the advantage of providing a nifty ground
connection to the case. However, inside milling is expensive. A
square aluminum extrusion is possible, but even more expensive.

Good luck.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
# http://802.11junk.com
# http://www.LearnByDestroying.com AE6KS

[Mark Harriss]

mickgeyver wrote:
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al


Tin the tracks with hot solder on the side outside the curve, as it
cools and contracts it will straighten the board.

[mickgeyver]

On Sep 25, 8:35*pm, Archimedes' Lever
wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver

wrote:
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. *I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

* Use 0.032" media. *Bake under a flat press upon receipt of the bare
boards.

I'll try to find thicker stock. Like Joerg there is no expense money
available for this project so I gotta use whatever is available.
There is a connector on the other end that I'm using to leech power
from the scope so I have limitations here.

* Hand assemble... *no wave solder, no IR oven.
Done that. Perhaps if I make a frame to clamp it flat during assembly.

* Those are the only techniques that yield 100% positive results.

* Any automated process will certainly have a poorer prime pass yield.

* That is, unless the PCB maker was real good at stress relief during the
making of the boards.
I'm the PCB maker all contained in house with a mill machine.

[mickgeyver]

On Sep 25, 11:41*pm, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver

wrote:
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. *I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

http://picasaweb.google.com/UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink

Is that a Polysulfone board?
No. Just a scrap of fiberglass board from long ago. I have some Rogers
flex board, but the surface appeared too rough to get good results on
my PCB mill.

With 0.020 inch anything, and all that copper, it's going to warp no
matter what you do. *Any differential heating, on one side of the
board, is going to cause the board to bend. *

I ran into the same problem years ago with wave and hand solder in
thin boards. *Going to thicker boards, with some kind of stiffener was
not an option because of weight limitations. *However, you apparently
don't have that problem. *Try 0.032 or 0.0625 boards, keep the heating
to a minimum, and it might work.

Can't go too thick here as I'm leeching power from a Tek P6204 probe
cable.

I think you might be entertained by what happens to just the board,
without any components. *Clamp one end of the board into a vice. *Heat
one side of the board with a hot air gun or soldering iron. *The
copper will expand, causing the board to warp. *In other words, the
large copper areas are what's causing the warping.

I'll try that just for grins. Never thought of thin PCB material as a
bi-metalic thermostat element.

You can somewhat minimize the effect by pre-heating and post-heating
the board. *We found that freon vapor reflow soldering produced
absolutely flat boards. *That because the entire board was heated
evenly, and cooled down evenly and slowly. *Heat one side of the board
more than the other (i.e. differential heating) and it's going to warp
unless you're very careful on cooling it down evenly. *When we went to
surface mount devices, small traces, and 0.5 oz Cu traces, the warping
was gone.

0.020 is thin enough that the board can be straightened by the
mounting arrangement. *Instead of the round brass tube, it might be
possible to use an aluminum tube, with two grooves milled into the
inside diameter. *Your current board does not have enough unused area
along the lengthwise edges to do this, but it can be expanded
somewhat. *This also has the advantage of providing a nifty ground
connection to the case. *However, inside milling is expensive. *A
square aluminum extrusion is possible, but even more expensive.

I was concerned that too much bending would crack some of the
components giving me problems later on. I don't want this to get too
big as it lets me attach this unit to a probe manipulator to use
under a microscope to hit those tiny nodes. Like I've stated
before.... I'm leeching power from the business end of a TEK P6204
probe. The 3/8 brass tube mates up nicely with the Tek probe cable
strain relief at the probe end. I'll post more photo's of the other
end for the groups viewing pleasure.

Good luck.
--
# Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D Santa Cruz CA 95060
# 831-336-2558
#http://802.11junk.com* * * * * * *
#http://www.LearnByDestroying.com* * * * * * * AE6KS

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 06:34:12 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver
wrote:

* Hand assemble... *no wave solder, no IR oven.
Done that. Perhaps if I make a frame to clamp it flat during assembly.

Then your dwell time on each solder joint is way too high.

Try 1/20th gram per joint, not the half gram per joint the picture
appears to show. You know... NASA soldering specs. As little solder as
is possible and perform the operation quickly. What I saw looked like
several time the amount needed in the dip chip. Even the connector was
huge and blobby on the solder joints. The builder does not need to flood
those pins with solder. The solder only needs to be between the pin and
the board ala SMD soldering. FILLET not BLOB.

The soldering iron should also be at 600° F, NOT 800° F.

If you are having wetting problems due to age of the leads of your
parts or such, you may need to try different solders to see if a
different flux choice might yield a good solder joint faster than your
current choice.

RMA is harder to clean (hot alcohol bath) but it does make a good, well
wetted solder joint faster in some instances. I am not sure which flux
choices are the most active these days. It has been a long time since I
did production level soldering, and we currently use odd technology since
we get exempted from RoHS compliance.

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver
wrote:

Can't go too thick here as I'm leeching power from a Tek P6204 probe
cable.

Ok. I just noticed that the backlighting LCD inverter in a typical
laptop is constructed similarly to your prototype. Very thin G10
board, 10mm wide, and all the parts on one side. To make matters
worse, a big routed hole in the middle for the xformer. Huge copper
ground plane on one side of the board.

Yet, all the boards in my collection are quite straight. That
demonstrates that it can be done. I'm not sure what you're doing
that's wrong, but I agree with others that suggest you're using far to
much solder and heat. Smaller parts, less solder, and less heat will
help.

Incidentally, when I say less heat, I don't mean less temperature. I
use the hottest iron tip I can get away with, and work fast. That
minimizes the energy transfered to the solder joint and therefore
reduces the heat affected zone.

I was concerned that too much bending would crack some of the
components giving me problems later on.

PCB warping will certainly cause problems. It really depends on the
physical size of the components. Parts with flexible leads (xsistors,
IC's) are not much of a problem because the leads absorb the flex.
Parts that are soldered directly to the board, will either crack, or
rip the traces off the board. If you can't fix the flexing problem,
switch to a flexible PCB design and apply an insulating stiffener
board on the circuit side. It can't be prototyped with at PCB router,
but at some point, you're going to have to commit to a PCB layout.
Might as well do it early.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Yet, all the boards in my collection are quite straight. That
demonstrates that it can be done. I'm not sure what you're doing
that's wrong, but I agree with others that suggest you're using far to
much solder and heat. Smaller parts, less solder, and less heat will
help.

Incidentally, when I say less heat, I don't mean less temperature. I
use the hottest iron tip I can get away with, and work fast. That
minimizes the energy transfered to the solder joint and therefore
reduces the heat affected zone.

I think one problem is that this is a home made board. The holes are
likely too large for the components (because most people don't have very
small drills on hand or even the drill chuck to hold them) and obviously
they aren't plated through. That can make it necessary to glob on the
solder.

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

I have no idea why the OP is using such thin stock, though. It looks
like he'd have room for something as robust as .050".

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:59:32 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Yet, all the boards in my collection are quite straight. That
demonstrates that it can be done. I'm not sure what you're doing
that's wrong, but I agree with others that suggest you're using far to
much solder and heat. Smaller parts, less solder, and less heat will
help.

Incidentally, when I say less heat, I don't mean less temperature. I
use the hottest iron tip I can get away with, and work fast. That
minimizes the energy transfered to the solder joint and therefore
reduces the heat affected zone.

I think one problem is that this is a home made board. The holes are
likely too large for the components (because most people don't have very
small drills on hand or even the drill chuck to hold them) and obviously
they aren't plated through. That can make it necessary to glob on the
solder.

Good observation. The lead size, and hole size and even the annular
ring width all inter-relate if one is to produce minimalist 'NASA' style
soldering results.

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

I have no idea why the OP is using such thin stock, though. It looks
like he'd have room for something as robust as .050".

He could make little SMD circuits that he places on Silica wafers, and
then place those wafers on the substrate with epoxy, and wire the
sections together.

I used to use 0.020 wafers up to 2 x 2 inches to make little smd proto
circuits on. I have glued smd parts on, and hand wired point-to-point
the nodes between the parts. I have also 'dead bug' glued thru-hole 8
pin dips onto it and wired those nodes with hook-up wire. The leads were
shortened, of course.

That sounds like a good proto build solution, but to make a production
run would require a different decision.

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred °F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred °F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course, but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.

[Nik Rim]

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree
differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred °F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course, but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.



I concur - 700F tips are great - no problems in the last 15 years. The only
time I go for a 700F is terminating some cables where the insulation is
super sensitive to the heat and shrinks back or melts through.

[Nik Rim]

"Nik Rim" wrote in message
. au...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two

wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require
shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree
differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than
800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed
at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred
°F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course, but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.





Typo - should have said 800F tips......

I concur - 700F tips are great - no problems in the last 15 years. The
only time I go for a 700F is terminating some cables where the insulation
is super sensitive to the heat and shrinks back or melts through.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:38:31 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred °F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course,

The sinking capacity of a soldering iron has little to do with the
temperature it sits at and claims to be maintaining. The ability of the
iron to keep a tip at a given temperature is what makes a good iron, and
no, those **** dial types with 800° at the upper end of the dial are NOT
good at maintaining a set point, and there is NO spec ANYWHERE that uses
800° as an iron tip temp far assembly, even by hand.

And even at 650° or 700°, a good soldering tech can perform a good
solder joint in the same amount of time with a proper iron that holds its
set point properly.

but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.

Proof that you do not really know anything about it. So despite all
the talk about dwell times, and claim of "oversight" of others, your
decisions about ignoring the facts and standards the industry has known
about for decades means that your credibility for actually knowing what
is going on fell right through the floor.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 18:27:08 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:


"Nik Rim" wrote in message
.au...

"Smitty Two" wrote in message
news
In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two

wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require
shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree
differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than
800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed
at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred
°F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course, but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.





Typo - should have said 800F tips......

I concur - 700F tips are great - no problems in the last 15 years. The
only time I go for a 700F is terminating some cables where the insulation
is super sensitive to the heat and shrinks back or melts through.


You are both idiots that would never sit very long at one of my
benches.

Not to mention that neither of you would make it more than a day in a
NASA cert course either. Not with a stupid mind set like that.

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 22:38:31 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 06:21:13 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

In article ,
Archimedes' Lever wrote:

As far as temperature, I agree with you. I've never found a need to
solder anything at less than 800F. Smaller parts just require shorter
dwell time.

This one is off the mark. Perhaps you meant "at MORE than 800°F"
That would certainly be an upper max for me, and it is quite easy to
solder at much lower temperatures. Well over a 100 degree differential,
and that is significant.

Pardon my ambiguity. What I meant to say was "anything other than 800F."
That's the upper limit on most fixed-temperature tips, or adjustable
irons.


Yes, and despite most folks cranking the damned things up that high,
basic soldering operations (pre-RoHS) were NEVER meant to be performed at
that high a temperature. Even on big 0.092" stock with lots of Copper.
In that case, one should pre-heat the whole assembly a couple hundred °F,
which will insure that all the solder joints wet well and flow through
properly.

Uh-huh. I've personally hand soldered hundreds of thousands of joints at
800F, and overseen the soldering of millions. Turning down the flame has
only one result: It takes too damn long to build the board. It's sort of
like the clock speed on a computer. It doesn't matter much if something
takes 1 second instead of 1/10 second, but it makes a big difference if
it takes an hour instead of 6 minutes. When I was a kid I built some
Heathkit stuff and spent 30 seconds making every solder connection,
because the iron was underpowered and I didn't know enough to know it.
Machine soldering is different, of course,

The sinking capacity of a soldering iron has little to do with the
temperature it sits at and claims to be maintaining. The ability of the
iron to keep a tip at a given temperature is what makes a good iron, and
no, those **** dial types with 800° at the upper end of the dial are NOT
good at maintaining a set point, and there is NO spec ANYWHERE that uses
800° as an iron tip temp far assembly, even by hand.

And even at 650° or 700°, a good soldering tech can perform a good
solder joint in the same amount of time with a proper iron that holds its
set point properly.

but for hand work, 800 is
perfect for everything and anything.

Proof that you do not really know anything about it. So despite all
the talk about dwell times, and claim of "oversight" of others, your
decisions about ignoring the facts and standards the industry has known
about for decades means that your credibility for actually knowing what
is going on fell right through the floor.

Obviously you have the engineering mindset, while I have the practical,
get-it-done mindset. Even NASA gave up their low-temperature bull****
when they figured out that components are subjected to *less* thermal
stress with high temps and short dwell times. Sure I know the difference
between power and temp, but as far as production soldering, a lack of
either has the identical result, and that's a lack of production, which
translates to a lack of income, which translates to going out of
business for a job shop. Many industries are, or were, profitable enough
to have people working along at a snail's pace, but contract
manufacturing doesn't have that false luxury.

How long does it take you to solder a standard thru-hole 14 pin DIP IC
at 650? Anything more than about 1 second per leg, and you'd be fired
from *my* production line. The same IC in a surface mount package, and
you'd be expected to skate down each side and make seven perfect solder
joints in a total of about 2 seconds, once the IC was tacked at opposite
corners and fluxed.

I'll make the implicit explicit here, and let you have the last word.
But it won't make you right.

[Wild_Bill]

I'd probably try a couple of methods which may or may not help. In welding,
the welds are often alternated from one side to the other, as the cooling
phase causes distortion. The alternating method minimizes distortion.

Another method that I'd consider, would be to raise some of the axial-lead
components slightly above the board surface, where space permits. A shim of
file folder material may be enough to leave a small gap, so the lead
positions wouldn't be so rigid. (the shim removed after the solder cools).

Jumper wires (soldered with a shim underneath them, or a slight hump) placed
laterally where they wouldn't interfere with other components or signals,
may add some flexibility to the overall assembly.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............

"mickgeyver" wrote in message
...
I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:29:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

and that's a lack of production, which
translates to a lack of income,


You're a retard, and we ain't making nor talking about some crap that
barely makes class one standards.

Your mind set is so archaic it is funny.

Just so you know, I could properly produce 10k solder connections a day
in my heyday. I am quite sure that I still could.

I used to teach soldering processes as well.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:29:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

but contract
manufacturing doesn't have that false luxury.


Contract Mfgrs make plenty on ANY hand soldered assemblies. Way more
per operation than on automated process controlled manufacturing.

You can't **** a ****ter, asshole. I have been around it too long.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:29:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

Anything more than about 1 second per leg, and you'd be fired
from *my* production line. The same IC in a surface mount package, and
you'd be expected to skate


You're an idiot, and every solder joint anyone you ever supervised was
improperly constructed.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:29:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

I'll make the implicit explicit here, and let you have the last word.
But it won't make you right.


You wouldn't know what was right if it bit you in the ass.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 08:29:01 -0700, Smitty Two
wrote:

Obviously you have the engineering mindset, while I have the practical,
get-it-done mindset.

No, I have seen the results of 800° retarded pencil-tip geeks. You
have no clue what is or is not obvious.

Even NASA gave up their low-temperature bull****
when they figured out that components are subjected to *less* thermal
stress with high temps and short dwell times.

You're an idiot. NASA was not about temperature, they were about the
mass of the solder joint. Sorry, but you cannot guess your way around
everything.

[Nik Rim]

I think it might be time to review the meds Lever Boy. ; )

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:53:16 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:


I think it might be time to review the meds Lever Boy. ; )


I've got nine inches of 'boy' to go up in your fat ass with, little
girl.

[ChairmanOfTheBored]

On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 16:02:55 -0700 (PDT), mickgeyver
wrote:

I'm trying to make a 10x scope probe that is capable of dealing with
slightly higher voltage levels of about +/- 20v yet at a high
impedance ~20Meg. This link "http://picasaweb.google.com/
UncleAltheKiddiesPal/Probe?feat=directlink" has some photo's showing
the probe and board warpage. The board was made from double sided
0.020-inch stock etched with a PCB milling machine (perhaps part of
the problem). It is (obviously) hand assembled. I would appreciate
any tips or techniques that I could use to keep this board from
turning into a potato chip during assembly.

Thank you.

al

Purchase rigid (of course) Silica plates (heat sink media). You could
very likely get 0.020" thickness, no problem. You could also likely get
the exact size you need as well. Then you proto by dead bug (or not)glue
the chips and other parts on, and hand wire the nodes between them. Your
proto could then turn into a flex circuit to replace all the hand wiring
for the SMD circuitry, glued (attached) onto one of your already existing
Silica base plates that you bought say 100 of for the first proto and
production runs.

As small as it looked, I could easily build many of them a day even as
proto style. But the flex circuit with the heat absorbing capable Silica
back plate sounds like a candidate for being called a solution.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 9/30/2009 5:04 PM Archimedes' Lever spake thus:

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:53:16 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:

I think it might be time to review the meds Lever Boy. ; )

I've got nine inches of 'boy' to go up in your fat ass with, little
girl.

Sounds like a proposal to me!


--
Found--the gene that causes belief in genetic determinism

[Nik Rim]

"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
s.com...
On 9/30/2009 5:04 PM Archimedes' Lever spake thus:

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:53:16 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:

I think it might be time to review the meds Lever Boy. ; )

I've got nine inches of 'boy' to go up in your fat ass with, little
girl.

Sounds like a proposal to me!




I'd take him up on it only I suspect his Boy has has "made in china"
imprinted on its base.

[Archimedes' Lever]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 10:21:15 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:


"David Nebenzahl" wrote in message
rs.com...
On 9/30/2009 5:04 PM Archimedes' Lever spake thus:

On Wed, 30 Sep 2009 13:53:16 +0800, "Nik Rim" wrote:

I think it might be time to review the meds Lever Boy. ; )

I've got nine inches of 'boy' to go up in your fat ass with, little
girl.

Sounds like a proposal to me!




I'd take him up on it only I suspect his Boy has has "made in china"
imprinted on its base.

100% pure US citizen here, and my base only has "It ALL belongs to me"
imprinted on it.

You wish you could take me up on it. Problem is, I'd rather go up in
you with a fast moving hunk of lead, so your encounter may not turn out
the way you would like it to.