We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem, Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky

SparkyGuy wrote:

We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem, Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Since it's unclear what exactly the problem is, an uninterruptable power supply
(UPS) would be your best choice.
A *filter* won't stop problems due to mini-brownouts you see.

Graham

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 01:19:40 -0700, SparkyGuy
wrote:

We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it
locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is
up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing
similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year
(60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like
to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip
chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a
few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem,
Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection
but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky


Taking a guess is not the smart way to do it - you really do have to
take measurements to determine the source of your problems. Wiring
installed in the 60's - 70's will still be fine providing the design
loading of the circuits has not been exceeded by current day usage.
You can make a few assumptions based on local knowledge of the
building environment though, such as;

Are there any industrial premises such as welding shops or heavy
machinery shops with large electric motors nearby or in the same
building? These installations can be a prime source of power surges
and power line 'noise' which will affect computer/data installations.

Are the computer terminals powered from a separate ac circuit provided
specifically for that purpose? If the ac supply to any or all of the
IT equipment is also shared with general office equipment or other
electrical equipment which produces voltage sags or 'noise', then this
can also affect the situation. Faulty fluoro lighting or even a faulty
electric heating element on the same ac circuit as IT equipment can
cause problems.

Provided that the ac supply into the building main distribution board
and to any sub distribution boards feeding your work area are properly
designed and there are no loose connections, then static power line
conditioner may solve the problem eg.
http://www.lineguard.com.my/splc.htm

It may be necessary to go to a fully automatic power line stabilizer
such as those here
http://www.tsipower.com/Automatic-Voltage-Regulator.htm

If you adopt either of these systems then it does not avoid the
requirement to properly distribute the ouput supply to your IT
equipment i accordance with normal wiring standards. Whatever you do,
it won't be cheap to clean up an already 'dirty' ac supply.

In article .net,
SparkyGuy wrote:
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem, Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky



IMO, If you think you have power problems, you need to spend a few
bucks on professional advice before you spend bucks on hardware. Call
an electrician.

That being said, if all the core equipment, (DSL router, broadband
modem, WiFi access point, etc), is on a small UPS, you've eliminated
lots of possible power problems. If you do this and you still have
problems, you have big problems or they are unrelated to power.




--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet SparkyGuy wrote in part:
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it
locks up and only a power cycle will get things going again.

Have you tried cycling power one box at a time (usually
working from dowstream to upstream) to see if there's
one sensitive box and the network comes back up?

Otherwise, as others have said, UPS. It is far better
than any filter and usually less expensive.

-- Robert

Al Dykes wrote:

In article .net,
SparkyGuy wrote:
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem, Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky


IMO, If you think you have power problems, you need to spend a few
bucks on professional advice before you spend bucks on hardware. Call
an electrician.


Don't waste your time. Call your electric company and ask them to
loan you a test set to monitor and log your power line.

The last place I worked was having excessive failures on the
production floor, and erratic computer problems all over the building. I
looked into one of the breaker boxes and told them what was wrong. They
told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that the wiring was done
to code. So, they called in the industrial electricians who wired the
building. They walked around removing breaker box covers, scratching
their asses, then sticking the covers back on.

Their final report was, 'We don't see nothing wrong.' Our problem
was found by the utility company, and proven by using the monitor. The
building was 25 years old, and used the then allowed two gauges smaller
neutral three phase system. The harmonics caused by lots of switching
power supplies cause high currents in the neutral, which causes heating
and erratic equipment shutdowns. The neutrals were supplemented with
larger neutrals, to make it equivalent to two gauges larger. 99 % of
our problems went away.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"SparkyGuy" wrote in message
obal.net...
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up
and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is
up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to
take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$
on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem,
Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky

If you are using the system in an office and the network is critical it
would be advisable to use a U.P.S. to make sure everything is ok, even in
case of a blackout U could lose any unsaved data. The U.P.S's I have seen
here in aus come with an adaptor cable to automate a shutdown and save data
in the case of a power failure. There is also a feature in the software
supplied (or downloadable) to monitor the power supplied, I have heard of a
friend that did this out in the country to prove that his power was dropping
well below allowable limits and forced the company to install another
substation to keep him going.
Good luck with it.
Ken

As others have suggested, invest in a UPS. Here is a web site that may
help:

http://apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

Total up the power requirements for your core devices and you can estimate
the reserve power time based on the UPS size in VA.

Bob

"SparkyGuy" wrote in message
obal.net...
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up
and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is
up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to
take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$
on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem,
Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky

http://apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

There seems to be 2 kinds of UPSs: those that switches to battery backup if
power drops below a minimum voltage; and those that separate the load from
the supply ("double conversion" type). This latter type is, basically, a
battery charger running an inverter it's *always" in baclup mode (c: .

It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power. All else relies on filtering and fast
switching from grid-supplied power to inverter power. (We pray in fast
relays!)

Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?

Sparky

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

My local [Hawaiian] electric company would install a graphing meter free of
charge to measure the voltage for a few days. Your may also.

--
Remove -NOSPAM- to contact me.

In article .net,
SparkyGuy wrote:
http://apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

There seems to be 2 kinds of UPSs: those that switches to battery backup if
power drops below a minimum voltage; and those that separate the load from
the supply ("double conversion" type). This latter type is, basically, a
battery charger running an inverter it's *always" in baclup mode (c: .

It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power. All else relies on filtering and fast
switching from grid-supplied power to inverter power. (We pray in fast
relays!)

Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?

Sparky

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

There is a company called Best Power Technology that sells what they call
FERUPS which uses a Ferroresonant transformer to regulate the output
voltage and remove anything that is not 60HZ from the power. It will
still switch to battery when the power fails completely and produces
a sine-wave output.
--
Tom Schulz

Somewhere close to your facility is using a lot of power
intermittently. Whenever they turn on or off a big piece of equipment,
they send the surge to every other users nearby. Since your building
will be torn down soon, a good UPS may be the best bet.

Ken
Torrey Hills Technologies
www.torreyhillstech.com
www.threerollmill.com

SparkyGuy wrote:

We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$ on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem, Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Sparky

Mine does that now and then but it's caused by a connected computer that
went off line in the middle of doing some networking that didn't
complete. the Router never times out on it and hogs the BW to a point
where the router may just stop.
First indication is, things starting to move slowly through the
router with out any apparent activity giving reason for slow up to the
point where things may start timing out on you.
etc..



--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

On Aug 10, 11:42 am, SparkyGuy wrote:
http://apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

There seems to be 2 kinds of UPSs: those that switches to battery backup if
power drops below a minimum voltage; and those that separate the load from
the supply ("double conversion" type). This latter type is, basically, a
battery charger running an inverter it's *always" in baclup mode (c: .

It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power. All else relies on filtering and fast
switching from grid-supplied power to inverter power. (We pray in fast
relays!)

Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?

Sparky

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

Sparky is correct!!!!!!

H. R. Hofmann

On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, SparkyGuy wrote:
It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power.
...
Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?
...
(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

So many who recommend a UPS niether know how electricity works nor
realize that most all UPSes connect directly to AC mains via a relay.
These UPSes maintain 'dirty' electricity during extreme brownouts and
blackouts, do not clean electricity despite so many rumors otherwise,
and create power so dirty in battery backup mode as to even harm some
small electric motors. Many only assume a $100 UPS contain double
conversion. Then convert that speculation into fact. You are
correct. The only UPS that would 'clean' electricity is the $500+
version.

That $500 UPS may or may not solve the problem. Far easier is to
first identify the problem. Simplest, easiest, and a most informative
first step involves measuring voltages on AC receptacles with a
digital meter. Measure each receptacle for router and for other
networked equipment. Three voltages between each of three plug
holes should be measured while all items are powered. Yes, there must
be an AC voltage even between neutral (largest) hole and safety ground
(round) hole contacts. What are those numbers?

You don't define what is connected where. Apparently router and DSL
modem share same power. What else is on that power strip AND also on
other receptacles of same circuit? If other network equipment is
powered from separate circuits, then voltage measurements between
those receptacle ground pins and receptacle neutrals should be
collected. Easier by using a three wire extension cord. Those
numbers will also provide significantly useful information. For
example, numbers may expose a voltage problem that even the $500 UPS
will not solve. Or it may expose a problem that will only create
other problems later.

One of few who offered useful suggests is Michael Terrel. His
building was wired with what is called a shared neutral. Shared
neutrals are code legal but will create problems if neutral wire only
meets code when powering large or many reactive loads (fluorescents,
computers, etc) 'Shared neutral' wiring would be obvious by
inspecting how those feed wires enter the breaker box and from voltage
numbers. Most circuits are not wired 'shared neutral'. But then most
circuits don't create your problem.

Nothing is wrong with properly installed 1960/1970 wiring. As long
as the circuits are three wire and not compromised by an ignorant
human, then that wiring is just as good as 2000 wiring.

However some have wired circuits using push-in or stab lock
connections. That is sufficient for electric light circuits and very
bad for electronics. By removing each cover plate, all wires should
be fully connected to screws on receptacle side. If not, wires would
be connected in the back - that is bad. Every wall receptacle from
router receptacle daisy chained to breaker box must have wires firmly
attached to those side screws. Anyone connecting to or disconnecting
from a receptacle not using screws may cause electronics power
problems.

Not defined is even the router. Some router power supply 'bricks'
have poor line filters. To eliminate what a $500 UPS might also
accomplish, we put this line filter into a receptacle electric box
with a duplex receptacle, flexible power cord and plug:
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/usa/pemfilter.asp
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/...ckfilters1.asp
http://www.cor.com/PDF/Q.pdf
http://www.interpower.com/ic/p30-35list.asp
http://www.interpower.com/scripts/ws...nly_filter=YES
If the $500 UPS is going to accomplish anything, then these filters
will also create a noticeable reliability improvement.

Another useful test is temporarily install a 50 foot three wire
extension cord so that router and DSL modem get powered from same
receptacle as other computers or from a receptacle mounted on breaker
box..

Reasons for power problems or symptoms associated are easily to
located. Long before spending big bucks on a UPS, far more sense to
first identify the problem. If building wire is creating the problem,
well, it may also be the 'canary in a coal mine'. Curing simple
symptoms with a $500 UPS may result in more serious problems later as
well as be uselessly expensive. No, neither router nor DSL modem need
be on a UPS for reasons also electrically simple.

Power strip protector does zero to solve your problem as made
obvious by its numeric specs. Even numbers on its packaging
demonstrated that it ignores any voltage below 330 volts. Votlages
that would create your lockup would be far lower. The protector acts
like it does not exist except when the rare much greater than 330 volt
transient happens maybe once every seven years. But then your failing
router powered from that protector strip also demonstrates same.

On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:42:56 -0700, SparkyGuy
wrote (with clarity & insight):

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

Peace of mind: Priceless.

In article ,
Wayne R. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:42:56 -0700, SparkyGuy
wrote (with clarity & insight):

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

Peace of mind: Priceless.


Unless the OP owns the copmany he is working for or it's a home
computer, it's not his call if "$500", for the sake of discussion, is
too much. As a technician, his job is to work with management people
to calculate the business costs of a failure, calculate the costs of a
couple ways for recover from the failure ithing the timeframes set by
management and them let the Boss make the call to spend the money, or
not.
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

Ink Maker wrote:
Somewhere close to your facility is using a lot of power
intermittently. Whenever they turn on or off a big piece of equipment,
they send the surge to every other users nearby. Since your building
will be torn down soon, a good UPS may be the best bet.

Back in the 80s with low end mini-computers we saw these issues a lot. Many times we'd find things like coffee makers on timers on the same circuit breaker. Or a welder next door but sharing the same transformer. Other times if we could establish the WHEN we'd have the folks spread out for a few days to see what might be going on. The most interesting one was a trash compactor across the street that was run at about 3:45 PM each day which is when the systems would act up. Turned out they were pulling down too much power and affecting the entire block.

David

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The last place I worked was having excessive failures on the
production floor, and erratic computer problems all over the building. I
looked into one of the breaker boxes and told them what was wrong. They
told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that the wiring was done
to code.

Wired to code is a safety issue. Clean power isn't really addressed by the code except where too small a wire would cause a voltage drop.

And yes the double conversion UPS is best. I treat the others as something to use and hope the computer doesn't turn off when the power drops for a bit. Other than that the surge protection they have in them is about the same as the power strip you get at Staples.

Every time we've had "strange" computer issues and I've gotten the office to go with said "good" UPS setups, the strange has vanished. And usually the money spent was way less than the total diagnostic route. Around here and in many parts of the country getting the power company's help in such issues is an almost hopeless task. They put on their DVM that the linemen carry on their belt and if it reads between 110 and 125 (or whatever the allowed range is) they declare victory and leave.

But yes we do first check for obvious stuff in the breaker box, shared breakers with the offset press, old wiring that's failing, etc...

David

In article ,
DLR wrote:
Ink Maker wrote:
Somewhere close to your facility is using a lot of power
intermittently. Whenever they turn on or off a big piece of equipment,
they send the surge to every other users nearby. Since your building
will be torn down soon, a good UPS may be the best bet.

Back in the 80s with low end mini-computers we saw these issues a lot. Many times we'd find things like coffee makers on timers on the same circuit breaker. Or a welder next door but sharing the same transformer. Other times if we could establish the WHEN we'd have the folks spread out for a few days to see what might be going on. The most interesting one was a trash compactor across the street that was run at about 3:45 PM each day which is when the systems would act up. Turned out they were pulling down too much power and affecting the entire block.

David


A lifetime ago, I was hired to run a shiny new datacenter with the
biggest new computer made by Digital Equipment Corp (R.I.P.). That was
in the winter and it was in a first-class large building in Manhattan.
We didn't have a UPS and we knew there were other large computers in
the building in the same state. (I wasn't part of teh planning
process).

Everything was fine until May 1st. At about 7:15 the system crashed
and rebooted with a "power fail" message. OK. Sh*t happens but it
proceeded to happen every day at about the same time.

We escalated the problem, step by step until I finally had a meeting
with the "account rep" for Con Edison, (the utility company for
non-New Yorkers.) Who knew that the power company had sales engineers?

He checked a few things and then declared that we were getting normal
commercial-grade power. The deal was that in the summer they switched
in capacitors to compensate for the power factor for the air
conditioners that people would begin to use. This had been standard
practive for decades and the solution was our problem.

We wound up getting a ferroresonant constant voltage transformer so
large it had to be moved in with a forklift.

Why did the "other mainframes" not have problems?

Becuase they were IBM systems and all of them had motor-generator
units included in the price. they were even better than CVTs and not a
customer third-party option like all the other computer vedors.









--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

w_tom wrote:
On Aug 10, 12:42 pm, SparkyGuy wrote:

It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power.
...
Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?
...
(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)


So many who recommend a UPS niether know how electricity works nor
realize that most all UPSes connect directly to AC mains via a relay.
These UPSes maintain 'dirty' electricity during extreme brownouts and
blackouts, do not clean electricity despite so many rumors otherwise,
and create power so dirty in battery backup mode as to even harm some
small electric motors. Many only assume a $100 UPS contain double
conversion. Then convert that speculation into fact. You are
correct. The only UPS that would 'clean' electricity is the $500+
version.

That $500 UPS may or may not solve the problem. Far easier is to
first identify the problem. Simplest, easiest, and a most informative
first step involves measuring voltages on AC receptacles with a
digital meter. Measure each receptacle for router and for other
networked equipment. Three voltages between each of three plug
holes should be measured while all items are powered. Yes, there must
be an AC voltage even between neutral (largest) hole and safety ground
(round) hole contacts. What are those numbers?

You don't define what is connected where. Apparently router and DSL
modem share same power. What else is on that power strip AND also on
other receptacles of same circuit? If other network equipment is
powered from separate circuits, then voltage measurements between
those receptacle ground pins and receptacle neutrals should be
collected. Easier by using a three wire extension cord. Those
numbers will also provide significantly useful information. For
example, numbers may expose a voltage problem that even the $500 UPS
will not solve. Or it may expose a problem that will only create
other problems later.

One of few who offered useful suggests is Michael Terrel. His
building was wired with what is called a shared neutral. Shared
neutrals are code legal but will create problems if neutral wire only
meets code when powering large or many reactive loads (fluorescents,
computers, etc) 'Shared neutral' wiring would be obvious by
inspecting how those feed wires enter the breaker box and from voltage
numbers. Most circuits are not wired 'shared neutral'. But then most
circuits don't create your problem.

Nothing is wrong with properly installed 1960/1970 wiring. As long
as the circuits are three wire and not compromised by an ignorant
human, then that wiring is just as good as 2000 wiring.

However some have wired circuits using push-in or stab lock
connections. That is sufficient for electric light circuits and very
bad for electronics. By removing each cover plate, all wires should
be fully connected to screws on receptacle side. If not, wires would
be connected in the back - that is bad. Every wall receptacle from
router receptacle daisy chained to breaker box must have wires firmly
attached to those side screws. Anyone connecting to or disconnecting
from a receptacle not using screws may cause electronics power
problems.

Not defined is even the router. Some router power supply 'bricks'
have poor line filters. To eliminate what a $500 UPS might also
accomplish, we put this line filter into a receptacle electric box
with a duplex receptacle, flexible power cord and plug:
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/usa/pemfilter.asp
http://www.schurterinc.com/products/...ckfilters1.asp
http://www.cor.com/PDF/Q.pdf
http://www.interpower.com/ic/p30-35list.asp
http://www.interpower.com/scripts/ws...nly_filter=YES
If the $500 UPS is going to accomplish anything, then these filters
will also create a noticeable reliability improvement.

Another useful test is temporarily install a 50 foot three wire
extension cord so that router and DSL modem get powered from same
receptacle as other computers or from a receptacle mounted on breaker
box..

Reasons for power problems or symptoms associated are easily to
located. Long before spending big bucks on a UPS, far more sense to
first identify the problem. If building wire is creating the problem,
well, it may also be the 'canary in a coal mine'. Curing simple
symptoms with a $500 UPS may result in more serious problems later as
well as be uselessly expensive. No, neither router nor DSL modem need
be on a UPS for reasons also electrically simple.

Power strip protector does zero to solve your problem as made
obvious by its numeric specs. Even numbers on its packaging
demonstrated that it ignores any voltage below 330 volts. Votlages
that would create your lockup would be far lower. The protector acts
like it does not exist except when the rare much greater than 330 volt
transient happens maybe once every seven years. But then your failing
router powered from that protector strip also demonstrates same.

strange, we just replaced a battery in a UPS used to power the PLC so to
prevent unstable voltage. It has a 120 watt inverter that runs all the
time and the 120 volts does nothing but keep the battery charged. It's
programmed to drop out if power does not recover with in 10 mins and
makes sure power remains on for at least 2 mins before it turns on
output to PLC.
It has corrected many problems since we experience service problems
in our location of operation commonly, more so lately than ever.

The last time we bought one of these it was only around $85 and it's
a din rail mount with a side din rail battery mounted connected via a
module cable. The battery isn't inside the unit. If the battery goes
bad, it will shut down. the inverter does not use source supply to power
its output.




--
"I'm never wrong, once i thought i was, but was mistaken"
Real Programmers Do things like this.
http://webpages.charter.net/jamie_5

On 11 Aug 2007 11:39:18 -0400, (Al Dykes) wrote (with
clarity & insight):

In article ,
Wayne R. wrote:
On Fri, 10 Aug 2007 09:42:56 -0700, SparkyGuy
wrote (with clarity & insight):

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

Peace of mind: Priceless.

Unless the OP owns the copmany he is working for or it's a home
computer, it's not his call if "$500", for the sake of discussion, is
too much. As a technician, his job is to work with management people
to calculate the business costs of a failure, calculate the costs of a
couple ways for recover from the failure ithing the timeframes set by
management and them let the Boss make the call to spend the money, or
not.

Yes, but: Too many people have seen the "calcuation of business costs"
double or triple the cost of the simple solution - that works, what?,
over 90% of the time? Over-analyzation or too little use of real
common sense or gut instinct is the counter to your arguement. Your
point is inarguably valid, but not the end-all, be-all either.

Anyway, it was intended as a stupid joke, but thanks for the
opportunity to vent a little.

On Aug 11, 9:00 pm, Jamie
t wrote:
...
It has corrected many problems since we experience service problems
in our location of operation commonly, more so lately than ever.

The last time we bought one of these it was only around $85 and it's
a din rail mount with a side din rail battery mounted connected via a
module cable. The battery isn't inside the unit. If the battery goes
bad, it will shut down. the inverter does not use source supply to power
its output.

Because some problems (ie low voltage from defective wiring) were
solved, that means a UPS solves all problems? I don't see where the
problem was first identified. If that particular problem does not
reoccur, then that UPS solves all problems?

Meanwhile, did you look at the output of the $85 UPS? Remember,
the OP is asking about cleaner power. This 120 VAC UPS in battery
backup mode outputs two 200 volt square waves with a spike of up to
270 volts between those square waves. Since the manufacturer is
promoting on spin, then this 'square wave' output is called a modified
sine wave. Hardly clean power. In fact, that modified sine wave
would be some of the dirtiest power seen by most appliances. However
it is a modified sine wave. Therefore many assume that UPS has
'cleaned' electricity.

So you know all UPSes output cleaner electricity? Did you first get
numbers as I do?

But again, long before applying 'magic box' solutions, a smarter
solution starts by first identifying the failure. In one case, had
they traced and solved reasons for strange electronics behavior, then
they would have found reasons for the resulting house explosion before
that explosion occurred.

Just because you 'feel' that UPS cleaned power does not mean it did
AND does not mean it solves all problems as implied by that
conclusion. No residential power should be anywhere near so 'dirty'
as to cause electronics failure.

Provided is how the OP can identify problems before fixing them
(what responsible repairmen do), get numbers so that the better
informed can help, AND maybe eliminate other future failures. If a
$500 UPS is needed for robust electronics, then how many other
electronics also need $500 UPSes? Furnace controls? Smoke
detectors? Less robust devices such as dimmer switches? It makes
zero sense to cure symptoms with a $500 UPS only on speculation.
Makes far more sense to eliminate the problem with far less expensive
solutions. That means identifying problems before fixing them.
Simple procedures provided without spending $500.

But again, that $85 retail UPS does not 'clean' electricity. It
connects appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup
mode. Its output may be so 'dirty' as to even harm some small
electric motors.

On Aug 11, 10:18 pm, Wayne R. wrote:
Yes, but: Too many people have seen the "calcuation of business costs"
double or triple the cost of the simple solution - that works, what?,
over 90% of the time? Over-analyzation or too little use of real
common sense or gut instinct is the counter to your arguement. Your
point is inarguably valid, but not the end-all, be-all either.

Why would AC power cause that failure? One - those routers are
defective as designed. Two - building AC electric has major problems
that require immediate attention. The design of routers, computers,
etc should be so robust that building power should never cause such
failures.

For example, Michael Terrell's post demonstrates why electronics
were failing. Neutral wires were undersized. Fixing the reason for
electronics problem rather than curing symptoms with a $500 UPS also
eliminated what was potentially a building fire. Electronics design
should be so robust that no building AC power should cause problems.
Curing the problem rather than curing symptoms with a $500 UPS
obviously is a smarter solution.

Scary are those who only want to cure symptoms.

On Aug 11, 3:43 pm, (Al Dykes) wrote:
We wound up getting a ferroresonant constant voltage transformer so
large it had to be moved in with a forklift.

Why did the "other mainframes" not have problems?

A story from Datamation magazine. One computer would crash
constantly. The tech would run diagnostics all night - no failure.
But when the tech went for coffee, then diagnostics would crash every
time. Got so bad that the tech would loudly announce he was going for
coffee, stomp out of the room, then sneak back to peek around a door
and watch the machine. No failures.

Problem was traced to how the computer was grounded. It was
grounded to the elevator because a human did not learn his job.
Everytime the tech took an elevator down for coffee, that elevator
would crash the computer.

There are no ghosts. But there are many humans who cannot bother to
first learn even basic grounding; then want to cure problems with
magic boxes because they never learned even simple concepts of
grounding.

Con Ed capacitors should never cause problems for computers. But
some early computers had marginal designs. For example, specs for PCs
are quite blunt. Power must be completely lost for 17 milliseconds
and computer must maintain output voltages. Computers that put fewer
loads on their power supply can operate even longer without power.
UPSes that switch over to battery backup may interrupt power for up to
10 milliseconds. If computer was upset by switching in reactive
loading, then computer would also crash when a UPS switched to battery
backup.

Described were some simple procedures to even identify bad
grounding. Of course, if the only failing device is the router, well,
is that router design too marginal? So we buy a $500 UPS to fix a $50
defective router?

"SparkyGuy" wrote in message
obal.net...
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up
and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is
up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

If I were you, I would first diagnose in more detail what "locks up" means.

It could mean ethernet packets are not getting from one computer to another
(pinging each others IP no response).
It may mean DNS stopped working.
It may mean your DSL modem is not working, but otherwise the LAN is working.

This is easy to do and would narrow down the device that is causing problem.

DLR wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The last place I worked was having excessive failures on the
production floor, and erratic computer problems all over the building. I
looked into one of the breaker boxes and told them what was wrong. They
told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that the wiring was done
to code.

Wired to code is a safety issue. Clean power isn't really addressed by the code except where too small a wire would cause a voltage drop.

And yes the double conversion UPS is best. I treat the others as something to use and hope the computer doesn't turn off when the power drops for a bit. Other than that the surge protection they have in them is about the same as the power strip you get at Staples.

Every time we've had "strange" computer issues and I've gotten the office to go with said "good" UPS setups, the strange has vanished. And usually the money spent was way less than the total diagnostic route. Around here and in many parts of the country getting the power company's help in such issues is an almost hopeless task. They put on their DVM that the linemen carry on their belt and if it reads between 110 and 125 (or whatever the allowed range is) they declare victory and leave.

But yes we do first check for obvious stuff in the breaker box, shared breakers with the offset press, old wiring that's failing, etc...


We were in a huge industrial park, with a lot of heavy industrial
work going on. Even when almost nothing was on in the offices or on the
factory floor, the power was dirty. It was cheaper, and better to
upgrade the 15 year old neutrals than add a couple thousand UPS to the
complex. Also, prior the the upgrade, several critical systems had 25 A
240 VAC Variacs on the inputs to raise the line voltage. We were able
to bypass them all, after the upgrade was complete.

The sad thing was that the newer method was already in use when the
complex was built, but the aged EE who designed the system thought
harmonics on neutrals were pure BS.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"SparkyGuy" wrote in message
obal.net...
We're having to reset our office network at least once a day. it locks up
and
only a power cycle will get things going again.

We've replaced the router and the DSL modem. No joy. Firmware is
up-to-date.
The neighboring office manager says that they are experiencing similar
issues. The building is old and will be bulldozed within a year (60's/70's
vintage wiring).

How can we confirm or eliminate the power as the culprit? Would like to
take
steps to filter the mains power rather than measure it (ie, strip chart
recorder) because I'm certain that it's the culprit, and spending a few $$
on
cleaning up the power is $$ well spent, IMHO.

The current power strip powering the network devices -- DSL modem,
Ethernet
network router/switch (no wireless) -- has integral surge protection but
nothing more.

All suggestions are welcome.

Could be voltage fluctuations either high or low, possibly there may be
spikes.
Try using a battery backup system like a UPS. Most of those will clean up
your power, and if there are mini outages, the UPS if sized correctly will
keep power to your equipment.

Sparky

w_tom wrote:

On Aug 11, 10:18 pm, Wayne R. wrote:
Yes, but: Too many people have seen the "calcuation of business costs"
double or triple the cost of the simple solution - that works, what?,
over 90% of the time? Over-analyzation or too little use of real
common sense or gut instinct is the counter to your arguement. Your
point is inarguably valid, but not the end-all, be-all either.

Why would AC power cause that failure? One - those routers are
defective as designed. Two - building AC electric has major problems
that require immediate attention. The design of routers, computers,
etc should be so robust that building power should never cause such
failures.

For example, Michael Terrell's post demonstrates why electronics
were failing. Neutral wires were undersized. Fixing the reason for
electronics problem rather than curing symptoms with a $500 UPS also
eliminated what was potentially a building fire. Electronics design
should be so robust that no building AC power should cause problems.
Curing the problem rather than curing symptoms with a $500 UPS
obviously is a smarter solution.

Scary are those who only want to cure symptoms.


The fire was later, and caused by the non Y2K 'Merlin' phone system
that went up in flames two weeks before it was to be replaced. The
power supply died, and stared a major fire. If the fire department had
been a few minutes later, the entire office wing would have been lost,
along with the design department. The place still smelled of burnt
plastic, two years later. To think that a small system on a 20 A 240
VAC dedicated circuit could do so much damage.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"DLR" wrote in message
.. .
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The last place I worked was having excessive failures on the
production floor, and erratic computer problems all over the building. I
looked into one of the breaker boxes and told them what was wrong. They
told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that the wiring was done
to code.

Wired to code is a safety issue. Clean power isn't really addressed by the
code except where too small a wire would cause a voltage drop.

Wiring to code is more than just safety, it also prevents ground loops and
improper grounding and neutrals, which can lead to all kinds of sporatic
problems.

And yes the double conversion UPS is best. I treat the others as something
to use and hope the computer doesn't turn off when the power drops for a
bit. Other than that the surge protection they have in them is about the
same as the power strip you get at Staples.

Every time we've had "strange" computer issues and I've gotten the office
to go with said "good" UPS setups, the strange has vanished. And usually
the money spent was way less than the total diagnostic route. Around here
and in many parts of the country getting the power company's help in such
issues is an almost hopeless task. They put on their DVM that the linemen
carry on their belt and if it reads between 110 and 125 (or whatever the
allowed range is) they declare victory and leave.

But yes we do first check for obvious stuff in the breaker box, shared
breakers with the offset press, old wiring that's failing, etc...

David

"SparkyGuy" wrote in message
obal.net...
http://apc.com/tools/ups_selector/

There seems to be 2 kinds of UPSs: those that switches to battery backup
if
power drops below a minimum voltage; and those that separate the load from
the supply ("double conversion" type). This latter type is, basically, a
battery charger running an inverter it's *always" in baclup mode (c: .

It seems that the double-conversion type is truly the only kind that can
isolate equipment from "bad" power. All else relies on filtering and fast
switching from grid-supplied power to inverter power. (We pray in fast
relays!)

Am I right in thinking that a double-conversion model is the best for our
needs (our problem being dirty power, not power-fail)?

Sparky

(Double-conversion models start near $500. Ouch!)

Yes.
As for the 500, would it be cheaper than losing all your data.

If I were you, I would first diagnose in more detail what "locks up" means.

It could mean ethernet packets are not getting from one computer to another
(pinging each others IP no response).
It may mean DNS stopped working.
It may mean your DSL modem is not working, but otherwise the LAN is working.

This is easy to do and would narrow down the device that is causing problem.

So far I know (SFIK -- hey! A new acronym!) this:
The computers in this office utilize a medical records system whereby one of
the computers hosts a server application (which contains the data base), and
3 other computers run client applications which log into the server app and
access the patient data base.

Several times a day the client computers suddenly can no longer log into the
data base (their first indication that something is wrong) and also cannot
access any web sites.

As yet I have not been there when this happens, so cannot confirm ping
success or failure. They've learned to turn off the switch to the power strip
that supplies the routers and modem, and after a few seconds, all is well
with the world again. It's a bit much to ask them to unplug a particular
router's "brick" from the power strip, plug in again, and troubleshoot from
there. I'll have to spend a day there, sometime soon, to experience it
myself.

The next step, I think, is to ask the power utility (PG&E) if they will lend
a power quality recorder.

Thanks,
Sparky

Scary are those who only want to cure symptoms.

In this particular situation, the building will be bulldozed in less than a
year. Building management is not about to have a major repair done on the
electric supply for the building in this time period.

So if, upon closer examination, it is determined that the problem is caused
by loads elsewhere in the building generating spikes, confounded by
inadequate wiring and/or imbalanced phases and overloaded neutrals, a $500
fix may indeed be our only choice.

Agree with the poster that pointed out that components such as routers should
be able to withstand larger power quality issues than they are currently
designed to withstand, if profit weren't the primary goal of the
manufacturer.

Sparky

The last time we bought one of these it was only around $85 and it's
a din rail mount with a side din rail battery mounted connected via a
module cable. The battery isn't inside the unit. If the battery goes
bad, it will shut down. the inverter does not use source supply to power
its output.

Please provide name & model of this stellar, inexpensive UPS. After
determining the cause of our power problems it might come in handy.

Sparky

But again, that $85 retail UPS does not 'clean' electricity. It
connects appliance directly to AC mains when not in battery backup
mode.

"Jamie" implied that it is a "dual-conversion" type:

"It has a 120 watt inverter that runs all the time and the 120 volts [input]
does nothing but keep the battery charged."

Sparky

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet w_tom wrote in part:
So many who recommend a UPS niether know how electricity works nor
realize that most all UPSes connect directly to AC mains via a relay.

You overstate your case. Both "Standby" and "power conditioning"
UPSes are readily abailable in the smaller sizes:

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/S...NM3Y_R5_EN.pdf

-- Robert

You overstate your case.

But isn't that the nature of USENET? (c:

Both "Standby" and "power conditioning"
UPSes are readily abailable in the smaller sizes:

http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/S...NM3Y_R5_EN.pdf

Great resource. Thanks!

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
The sad thing was that the newer method was already in use when the
complex was built, but the aged EE who designed the system thought
harmonics on neutrals were pure BS.

But it is! A proper neutral doesn't even have the row of little holes,
much less the reeds.

--
If you really believe carbon dioxide causes global warming,
you should stop exhaling.

clifto wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
The sad thing was that the newer method was already in use when the
complex was built, but the aged EE who designed the system thought
harmonics on neutrals were pure BS.

But it is! A proper neutral doesn't even have the row of little holes,
much less the reeds.


BZZZZZT!!! Thanks for trying. NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

In sci.electronics.repair Al Dykes wrote:
In article ,
DLR wrote:
Ink Maker wrote:
Somewhere close to your facility is using a lot of power
intermittently. Whenever they turn on or off a big piece of equipment,
they send the surge to every other users nearby. Since your building
will be torn down soon, a good UPS may be the best bet.

Back in the 80s with low end mini-computers we saw these issues a lot. Many times we'd find things like coffee makers on timers on the same circuit breaker. Or a welder next door but sharing the same transformer. Other times if we could establish the WHEN we'd have the folks spread out for a few days to see what might be going on. The most interesting one was a trash compactor across the street that was run at about 3:45 PM each day which is when the systems would act up. Turned out they were pulling down too much power and affecting the entire block.

David


A lifetime ago, I was hired to run a shiny new datacenter with the
biggest new computer made by Digital Equipment Corp (R.I.P.). That was
in the winter and it was in a first-class large building in Manhattan.
We didn't have a UPS and we knew there were other large computers in
the building in the same state. (I wasn't part of teh planning
process).

Everything was fine until May 1st. At about 7:15 the system crashed
and rebooted with a "power fail" message. OK. Sh*t happens but it
proceeded to happen every day at about the same time.

We escalated the problem, step by step until I finally had a meeting
with the "account rep" for Con Edison, (the utility company for
non-New Yorkers.) Who knew that the power company had sales engineers?

He checked a few things and then declared that we were getting normal
commercial-grade power. The deal was that in the summer they switched
in capacitors to compensate for the power factor for the air
conditioners that people would begin to use. This had been standard
practive for decades and the solution was our problem.

We wound up getting a ferroresonant constant voltage transformer so
large it had to be moved in with a forklift.

Why did the "other mainframes" not have problems?

Becuase they were IBM systems and all of them had motor-generator
units included in the price. they were even better than CVTs and not a
customer third-party option like all the other computer vedors.

Actually they were optional if the customer had a 400Hz source.
I worked for a company where the entire datacenter was on a _large_
UPS that provided 400Hz power; none of our IBM mainframes ever had a
MG set.

Jerry