On Aug 12, 1:29 am, SparkyGuy wrote:
Scary are those who only want to cure symptoms.

In this particular situation, the building will be bulldozed in less than a
year. Building management is not about to have a major repair done on
the electric supply for the building in this time period.

But I was suggesting minor repair such as a wire pushed into the
back of a receptacle instead of wrapped around the screw, a loose
screw inside the breaker box, a miswire that somehow disconnected the
safety ground causing significant voltage where voltage should not be,
etc. A problem quickly identified with the meter or isolated by
temporarily powering router/modem from the 50 foot extension cord.
Obviously no expensive solution was proposed. But spending $500 for
fix what may even be a defective $50 router design AND not even
knowing that AC electric is a problem - that is a major and expensive
repair.

One does not throw money at problems like it were a grenade. One
first identified a simple problem. Especially when one does not even
have to be there when router locks up to see why. Posted elsewhere is
another better idea.

On Aug 12, 1:29 am, SparkyGuy wrote:
As yet I have not been there when this happens, so cannot confirm ping
success or failure. They've learned to turn off the switch to the power strip
that supplies the routers and modem, and after a few seconds, all is well
with the world again.

Write a simple script that is also an icon on the desktop. When
router locks, then each user clicks on that icon to collect and store
relevant information in a temporary file.

Some of the tasks that script must perform include
ping 192.168.1.1 tmpfile
ping 192.168.1.100 tmpfile
ipconfig /all tmpfile

When you arrive, view what computers talk to router, what computers
talk to each other, and even what computers still have IP leases.
There is still no reason to believe power created this problem. If
so, then why is the router's power supply so deficient as to not
eliminate things that other power supplies (ie computers, modem, etc)
easily make irrelevant?

Like the temporary 50 foot power cord, meter measurement (numbers
then posted here so that other information you did not see in those
numbers can be identified), $10 line filter, etc. So many simple
things to first learn where a problem is rather than just
automatically assume (for no reason) that it must be 'dirty' power and
that a $500 UPS must cure it.

You don't even have to be there when router locks up. Voltages from
the meter could report defects even when router is working OK. Again,
we first collect data before automatically speculating blame. If
power is the problem, then why is only one appliance failing? A
question that PG&E will ask, be discouraged by an answer based only in
speculation, and then tend to be less cooperative. To get useful
assistance from PG&E, wild speculation (it must be a power problem)
with is not sufficient. Why do you suspect power? No post here
suggests that power is reason for the failure.

How do you know the problem is not expired IP leases? Again, not
posted to be a solution. Posted as but another example of the so many
existing reasons ignored because speculation blames AC electricity.

On Aug 12, 9:21 am, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
You overstate your case. Both "Standby" and "power conditioning"
UPSes are readily abailable in the smaller sizes:

So where is the double conversion UPS selling for $85? The app note
is simply a summary of names for each type of UPS. It says nothing
about a double conversion UPS costing only $85. And it forgets to
mention other paths of noise and interference that even completely
bypass the UPS. And it does not discuss functions that all
electronics contain so that every very dirty electricity from $85
UPSes is completely irrelevant.

What must that router do? Its power supply must be so robust that
even an $85 UPS in battery backup mode outputing dirt - 200 volt
square waves and a spike of less than 270 volts - is completely
irrelevant to the router. Why did an APC app note forget to mention
those numbers; forget to mention what electronics power supplies must
make irrelevant?

Simpler solutions first identify a problem rather than throwing a
$500 UPS to fix what may even be, instead, a defective $50 router.
Nothing else crashes and locks? Somehow that also is not relevant?
Somehow we know it must be an AC electric problem? A conclusion
based in speculation. Somehow an $85 UPS does what a $500 UPS does?
Where does the APC app note say that? Why does it not say so much
that is relevant to this router problem?

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet w_tom wrote in part:
On Aug 12, 9:21 am, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
You overstate your case. Both "Standby" and "power conditioning"
UPSes are readily abailable in the smaller sizes:

So where is the double conversion UPS selling for $85?

Well, USENET normally frowns on any sort of commercial postings,
but since you asked, you might try:

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/2962265

but I make no promises. The stepped ouput sine-approx would appear
to be your "double-conversion". You may have different preferred
vendors.

Simpler solutions first identify a problem rather than throwing a

This applies when diagnostics are easy and cheap. As they might
be for you or me. The undersized neutral is easy to check with
a DVOM: just measure AC from neutral to ground. Anything more
than a volt or two means trouble. Much easier than disturbing
connections (which usually makes problems disappear).

However, for someone less experienced, part swapping (or sequential
reboots as I suggested) may be more cost-effective than hiring
rather pricey electricians. The OP is at least on the right
track by asking for help. I see my responsibility is to tailor
my advice. Not always repond with what I'd do, or some sort of
"ideal" solution.

-- Robert

In article .net,
SparkyGuy wrote:
Scary are those who only want to cure symptoms.

In this particular situation, the building will be bulldozed in less than a
year. Building management is not about to have a major repair done on the
electric supply for the building in this time period.

So if, upon closer examination, it is determined that the problem is caused
by loads elsewhere in the building generating spikes, confounded by
inadequate wiring and/or imbalanced phases and overloaded neutrals, a $500
fix may indeed be our only choice.

Agree with the poster that pointed out that components such as routers should
be able to withstand larger power quality issues than they are currently
designed to withstand, if profit weren't the primary goal of the
manufacturer.



Anyone that runs a business server without putting it on UPS is not
doing his employer any favors. Once you have a UPS, putting the
switch and DSL router on the UPS is a no-brainer.

Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power strip
will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

On Aug 13, 10:45 am, (Al Dykes) wrote:
Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power strip
will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

Cite manufacuture specs that claim that protection. You cannot.
Entire protection circuit in a plug-in UPS is the same circuit inside
power strip protectors. But again, where do they list each type of
surge and numbers that define that protection? They do not which is
why you do not cite spec numbers.

More embarrassing, a UPS protector circuit is often grossly
undersized even compared to power strips. That too will be obvious
once those manufacturer spec numbers are provided. So where is this
superior protection?

Meanwhile, any problem that might be causing the OPs router lock up
would also be completely ignored by MOVs. Review numbers that are
even printed on the box. Is this post sharp? Yes. You made claims
that even manufacturer numbers do not say. Why make claims without
first learning the technology?

UPS is to protect data from blackouts and brownouts. Once saved to
disk, then data needs no such protection. How robust is protection
inside computers? So robust that some of the dirtiest electricity -
from a UPS in battery backup mode - still does not harm a computer.
What is a source of some 'dirtiest' electricity? Many who did not
first learn the numbers will automatically *assume* a UPS means
'cleaner' electricity. What is a source of dirtiest electricity? Did
you read those specs? That is what a good business manager does -
learn the facts before making a recommendation.

Meanwhile, MOVs (the protection circuit inside a plug-in UPS) will
do nothing for the OP's router problem.

On Aug 13, 10:25 am, Robert Redelmeier wrote:
This applies when diagnostics are easy and cheap. As they might
be for you or me. The undersized neutral is easy to check with
a DVOM: just measure AC from neutral to ground. Anything more
than a volt or two means trouble. Much easier than disturbing
connections (which usually makes problems disappear).

All three numbers on each wall receptacle (neutral to ground,
neutral to hot, ground to hot) also report informative facts. Many
will not obtain those numbers because the numbers mean nothing to
them. They forget. Numbers are major facts and create useful replies
from the other side of usenet.

Provided were numerous simple and inexpensive diagnostics. For
example a 50 foot three wire extension cord test. An icon on the
desktop that runs a script to collect ping and other useful numbers.
The $10 line filter. But a $500 UPS only to perform diagnostic
testing? A $500 UPS does not eliminate all possible electrical
problems - as was assumed. So if the problem still exists, does that
prove it is not from AC mains? No. Circuits still exist to carry AC
electric anomalies completely around that UPS.

A UPS that outputs a sine wave does not define a double conversion
UPS. That model (if I have properly recognized it) is simply a
standby supply with a cleaner output. It still connects router
directly to AC mains when not in battery backup mode; does no
electricity 'cleaning'. That UPS also would not provide useful
information on the OP's router lockup.

A better test. Buy a cheapest UPS. Run router from that UPS in
battery backup mode. Does that 'dirty' electricity cause router
lockup? If not, then is router lockup due to AC electricity? Another
diagnostic that is so much less expensive.

In article .com,
w_tom wrote:
On Aug 13, 10:45 am, (Al Dykes) wrote:
Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power strip
will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

Cite manufacuture specs that claim that protection. You cannot.
Entire protection circuit in a plug-in UPS is the same circuit inside
power strip protectors. But again, where do they list each type of
surge and numbers that define that protection? They do not which is
why you do not cite spec numbers.

A real surge protection circuit has iron and copper and multiple metal
oxide varistors (MOV). Weight counts, and the parts cost money.

Here's an illustration of a "better" powerstrip with small inductors,
caps, and MOV chips.

http://www.answers.com/topic/surge-s...cat=technology

Here is a much better surge protector that weighs about 3 pounds. The
heavy part is iron-core inductors.

http://www.apc.com/resource/include/...e_sku=PR11T3V2

There is also "whole house" protection that an electrician can install
in the main panel.
http://www.smarthome.com/4860.html


IMO, anyone that doesn't put the server and core comm gear on a good
UPS is an idiot.

What we do at the desktops depends.

In large buildings where all the utility wire is below-ground, it
might be nothing. In surburbia with above-ground power, I'd put a
whole-house protector in the panel and a "better" powerstrip under
each PC.


--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

On Aug 13, 5:31 pm, (Al Dykes) wrote:
In large buildings where all the utility wire is below-ground, it
might be nothing. In surburbia with above-ground power, I'd put a
whole-house protector in the panel and a "better" powerstrip under
each PC.

A breaker box 'whole house' protector (www.smarthome.com) has an
earthing wire. Therefore it has an earth ground to shunt (connect,
divert, clamp) surges. Nobody says that protector stops, blocks, or
absorbs surges. But your post implies that myth. How does a one inch
part inside a protector stop surges that could not be stopped by three
miles of sky? No protector stops or absorbs destructive surges.
Otherwise even galvanic isolation inside all appliances would make all
surges irrelevant.

A surge that overwhelms the many appliance protection circuits
(galvanic isolation is only one and is also installed for human
safety) cannot be stopped and cannot be absorbed. Destructive surge
seeks earth ground. Either it is earthed via a wire (cable TV,
satellite dish) or is earthed via a protector (AC electric,
telephone). The smarthome.com protector with a dedicated earthing
connection does earthing.

What doe MOVs do? Well since we cannot make a wire connection to
earth, then MOVs make that wire connection only during surges. How
good is that connection? Increased joules is same as increased wire
gauge. Joules do not define protection. Joules is the ballpark
number for potector life epectancy.

Why do some protectors fail during a surge - as the indicator light
reports? Those protectors are grossly undersized. Grossly
undersizing gets the naive to recommend more ineffective protectors.
The effective 'whole house' protector is sufficiently sized (has
enough joules) as to earth direct lightning strikes. A human never
even knows a surge existed when using minimally sufficient
protectors. Sufficiently sized does not promote protectors among the
naive. But that is what the effective protector does - conduct to
earth and remain functional.

Makes no difference whether incoming wire is overhead or
underground. Every wire in every cable that enters the building must
connect to same earthing electrode - either directly or via a
protector. This figure from an industry professional demonstrates
same principles for two structures. Each structure has its own single
point earth ground. Underground wire to the building also carries
surges:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf

Another industry professional also demonstrates why underground
wires entering a building without earthing can cause damage:
http://tinyurl.com/38v2dv
Lightning strikes somewhere across the street close to the below
grade West cable vault. ... The first line of defense is the telco
protection panel, but the panel must be connected to a low
resistance / inductance ground. There was no adequate ground
available in the telephone room.

MOVs are simply one type of connecting device to earth ground.
Others include 3mill carbons, avalanche diodes, gas discharge tubes,
etc. In each case, the protector is only a connecting device - shunts
(clamps, connects, diverts, conducts) a surge to what the surge wants
- earth ground.

Never assume a protector is protection. That is science based in
word association. A 'protector' is a connecting device to
protection. 'Protection' (via a protector or just using a wire) is
earth ground.

Meanwhile, plug-in protector does not even have an earthing
connection. Therefore its manufacturer avoids discussing earthing.
Primary objective of plug-in protectors - profits. No wonder Monster
Cable sells a $100+ protector that is same as the $10 protector in the
grocery store.

"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:45 am, (Al Dykes) wrote:
Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power strip
will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

Cite manufacuture specs that claim that protection. You cannot.
Entire protection circuit in a plug-in UPS is the same circuit inside
power strip protectors.

Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.


More embarrassing, a UPS protector circuit is often grossly
undersized even compared to power strips.

Again that is not even close to being true.
I have seen people try to place to many devices for a given UPS, but that is
not what you are saying above

UPS is to protect data from blackouts and brownouts.

That can be one function, another more important function for other people
is to keep the equipment running during blackouts and brownouts.



Once saved to
disk, then data needs no such protection. How robust is protection
inside computers? So robust that some of the dirtiest electricity -
from a UPS in battery backup mode

Unless you have a very cheap UPS, most power from a UPS during battery
operation is quite clean.

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 14:25:34 GMT, Robert Redelmeier
wrote:

In comp.dcom.lans.ethernet w_tom wrote in part:
On Aug 12, 9:21 am, Robert Redelmeier
wrote:
You overstate your case. Both "Standby" and "power conditioning"
UPSes are readily abailable in the smaller sizes:

So where is the double conversion UPS selling for $85?

Well, USENET normally frowns on any sort of commercial postings,
but since you asked, you might try:

http://shop1.outpost.com/product/2962265

but I make no promises. The stepped ouput sine-approx would appear
to be your "double-conversion". You may have different preferred
vendors.

You didn't read the APC paper in your previous post otherwise you
would see that the APC 350VA unit you are suggesting for $70 is NOT a
double conversion type. It is a basic line interactive BACK-UPS. That
means the load runs on normal mains supply - along with all the
voltage variations and noise - as it does without the UPS. Only when
the mains fails does switchover occur and the load then runs from
battery powered SMPS converter (18 min at 50% load) - which will be
free of the mains input voltage fluctuations and noise.

Using this type of UPS is almost useless in cleaning up power. It is
true that the UPS does have the usual surge protection devices you
might find in a multi outlet power distribution board - but that's
about all.

APC make a range of Smart UPS RT which are double conversion and
models start at 1500VA and with a ERP of $1,150. It is generally not
economical to use D?C for loads less than this value.
http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=223

There is another APC document which compares the BACK-UPS andf the D/C
UPS http://www.apcmedia.com/salestools/J...QSBR_R0_EN.pdf

Sanyo Denki do make a 1KVA D/C UPS but they won't be cheap either
http://www.netmotion.com/htm_files/ot_ups.htm

If there is no problem with the RELIABILITY of mains supply, but it is
just fluctuating and noisy, then a D/C UPS may not be needed. It may
be cheaper to use a power conditioner. APC make a range of these as
well http://www.apcc.com/products/family/index.cfm?id=307

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 22:08:40 -0400, "Dana" wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:45 am, (Al Dykes) wrote:
Any name-brand UPS will have genuine surge protection. A power
strip
will have, at most, MOV chips that handle spikes and little else.

Cite manufacuture specs that claim that protection. You cannot.
Entire protection circuit in a plug-in UPS is the same circuit
inside
power strip protectors.

Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.


More embarrassing, a UPS protector circuit is often grossly
undersized even compared to power strips.

Again that is not even close to being true.
I have seen people try to place to many devices for a given UPS, but
that is
not what you are saying above

UPS is to protect data from blackouts and brownouts.

That can be one function, another more important function for other
people
is to keep the equipment running during blackouts and brownouts.



Once saved to
disk, then data needs no such protection. How robust is protection
inside computers? So robust that some of the dirtiest electricity
-
from a UPS in battery backup mode

Unless you have a very cheap UPS, most power from a UPS during
battery
operation is quite clean.





Everyone should get this point straight. All UPS's are not the same
and depending upon the power quality requirements of the IT equipment
and how long it must be kept running following the mains outage, will
determine the proper solution to his situation. If he has poor quality
mains power then either a power conditioner or a double conversion UPS
will be mandatory. A line interactive backup UPS, especially a stepped
sine converter type, will be no use at all.

A standard line interactive backup ups which most of us small time
users might buy for out PC does NOT clean up the incoming mains power
any more than a surge protector (either whole house or a power board
type).

The load, whatever it is, will run on normal mains power while it is
present. When mains power fails switchover to battery power occurs and
the load will now run from the DC-AC converter output for as long as
the battery can handle it. The small units will only keep the load
running for around 5 - 10 minutes on full load. This gives you time to
shut down all the computers to save work which is being performed at
the time until mains power returns. The quality output power from the
converter will depend on the quality and type of converter. A pseudo
sine wave or stepped sinewave converter can produce more noise than
you might find on the normal mains supply due to the odd harmonics in
the stepped sine output, so if noise is a problem for the IT equipment
being supplied this may not be the way to go. The next step is a
double conversion UPS.

A double conversion UPS does clean up the power provided that it
employs true sine wave conversion rather than stepped sine conversion.
The load is always running from the coverter but, the length of time
the load can continue to run when mains power fails is dependant upon
battery capacity. If the outage is more than a few minutes then the IT
equipment must be shut down. These units cost a lot more than the
normal line interactive UPS.

These units cost a lot more than the normal line interactive UPS.

Why? These and the other types have:
1) battery charge circuit
2) inverter that generates AC output to the load
3) some kind of power-fail switch-over (the double-conversion type may
eliminate this altogether)
4) line filter

Please enlighten me. Why should the double-conversion UPS be so much more
costly?

Sparky

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:36:28 -0700, SparkyGuy
wrote:

These units cost a lot more than the normal line interactive UPS.

Why? These and the other types have:
1) battery charge circuit
2) inverter that generates AC output to the load
3) some kind of power-fail switch-over (the double-conversion type
may
eliminate this altogether)
4) line filter

Please enlighten me. Why should the double-conversion UPS be so much
more
costly?

Sparky

There are several reasons.

1) the D/C UPS must constantly supply power to the load often at
maximum rating. It therefore has to be reliable over a long period of
time at higher operating temperature - thus better design and higher
quality and better heat dispersion. A line interactive backup UPS is
only ever called upon to supply DC-AC converter power on rare
occasions and then only for short periods - thus cheaper design and
construction.

2) It has to regulate both voltage and frequency thus more complex
design. It will also employ a true sine wave DC-AC converter in order
to keep waveform distortion below about 3%.

3) It must incorporate power factor correction to maximise converter
efficiency and minimise operation temp whereas LIUPS does not usually
incorporate this feature.

4) Up to 3 times the number of components compared to a LIUPS.

On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.

If true, then Dana would cite manufacturer spec sheets. He would
post numbers that show how a UPS is better than a power strip. He
does not and he cannot. So he attacks - 'kill the messenger'.
Meanwhile, smarter consumers can view those numbers. Let's review an
APC Back-UPS 300 spec sheet:
Surge Protection and Filtering
Surge energy rating 300 Joules

That's it. Nothing more. Where is all this protection? It does
not even cite the various electrical anomolies and numbers for that
protection. It does not even claim to protect - only lists 300 joules
of MOVs? The entire protection system is 300 joules of MOVs an no
claims that those MOVs do anything? Even grocery store power strip
protectors have more joules.

Why did Dana somehow know a UPS provides better protection? He
knows because he feels. The color glossy promotion sheet made some
ambiguous claim about protection. That is often the only proof of
surge protection - some ambiguous statement without numbers.

Numbers demonstrate grossly undersized protection inside an APC
UPS. IOW only enough joules to claim some surge protection. That is
sufficient for Dana to make emphatic claims - to know like an expert.

Numbers say that surge protection is near zero. Did they lie? Of
course not. It was not zero protection. It was near zero
(ineffective) protection. But sufficient for Dana to claim protection
better than power strips. He could not bother to first read the
numbers?

Meanwhile, a typical UPS connects an appliance directly to AC mains
when not in battery backup mode. UPS battery backup output may be
extremely 'dirty'. Does 'dirtiest' electricity from a cheap UPS cause
the router to lock up? A diagnostic test.

w_tom wrote:
On Aug 13, 5:31 pm, (Al Dykes) wrote:
In large buildings where all the utility wire is below-ground, it
might be nothing. In surburbia with above-ground power, I'd put a
whole-house protector in the panel and a "better" powerstrip under
each PC.

The best information on surges and surge protection I have seen is at:
http://omegaps.com/Lightning%20Guide...ion_May051.pdf
- "How to protect your house and its contents from lightning: IEEE guide
for surge protection of equipment connected to AC power and
communication circuits" published by the IEEE in 2005 (the IEEE is the
dominant organization of electrical and electronic engineers in the US).
And also:
http://www.nist.gov/public_affairs/p.../surgesfnl.pdf
- "NIST recommended practice guide: Surges Happen!: how to protect the
appliances in your home" published by the US National Institute of
Standards and Technology in 2001

The IEEE guide is aimed at those with some technical background. The
NIST guide is aimed at the unwashed masses. Both are aimed at home use,
but contain useful information for all locations. They are also aimed at
surges, but contain some information on voltage loss.

No protector stops or absorbs destructive surges.

I wouldn’t bet on the inductor in a plug-in suppressor being effective.
But there are devices, like ferroresonant transformers that the IEEE
Emerald book says are effective at stopping surges.


Why do some protectors fail during a surge - as the indicator light
reports? Those protectors are grossly undersized. Grossly
undersizing gets the naive to recommend more ineffective protectors.
The effective 'whole house' protector is sufficiently sized

In w_’s mind, plug-in suppressors have miniscule ratings, service
panel suppressors have mega ratings. But plug-in suppressors are readily
available with very high ratings for relatively low cost. It is probably
harder to find UPSs with very high surge ratings. Any surge suppressor
in the US should be listed under UL 1449.

Each structure has its own single
point earth ground. Underground wire to the building also carries
surges:
http://www.erico.com/public/library/...es/tncr002.pdf

w_ has a fetish about tower antennas.

“Single point ground” is of major importance - entrance protectors for
phone, cable, ... connect with a *short* wire to the earth electrode
conductor at the power panel. With a large surge, the building ‘ground’
will always rise above `absolute' ground. The goal is for the power and
phone 'grounds' to rise together. Results of not having a single point
ground are illustrated in the IEEE guide pdf page 40.

Francois Martzloff, the NIST guru on surges, has written "the impedance
of the grounding system to `true earth' is far less important than the
integrity of the bonding of the various parts of the grounding system."


Meanwhile, plug-in protector does not even have an earthing
connection. Therefore its manufacturer avoids discussing earthing.

The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage
on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor.
Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or
absorbing) . The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the
guide starting pdf page 40). UPSs may or may not have the same surge
suppression.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
damaging voltages between power and signal wires (including induced from
nearby strikes). These multiport suppressors are described in both guides.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

--
bud--

On Aug 14, 3:36 am, SparkyGuy wrote:
Please enlighten me. Why should the double-conversion UPS be so
much more costly?

To add to what Ross Herbert has posted: a standard computer grade
UPS has a power supply to charge the battery about the size of a power
brick (wall wart). The double conversions UPS must have same supply
that is significantly larger than a computer power supply. It must
both recharge battery and to run the output inverter - another power
supply. Whereas a simple battery backup (standby) supply only has a
an output inverter, the double conversion must have a big output
inverter AND have an even bigger power supply to power that output
inverter and to recharge battery.

Then double conversion design gets more complex - more things that
app note did not discuss. Standard UPS may output extremely dirty
electricity - as made obvious in specs and by numbers I posted
previously with a spike of up to 270 volts. It is a double conversion
UPS. Its power supplies - especially ouput inverter - must be far
more complex to have a cleaner output. Therefore efficiencies are
lost. Now its battery and input power supply must be bigger. More
expense.

Double conversion UPS may be $500+. Better UPSes - building wide
solutions - are even more expensive since design must be even better,
battery must last much longer than 3 years, and it actually contain
effective surge protection (meaning it is properly earthed).

"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are talking
about.

On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:33:33 -0400, "Dana" wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power
strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are
talking
about.



I'm afraid it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

In article ,
Ross Herbert wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:33:33 -0400, "Dana" wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power
strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are
talking
about.



I'm afraid it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.


Any device from a reputable brand that has iron/copper inductors, MOVs
and capacitors will absorb surges. The heavier, the better to absorb
surges.







--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. A Proud signature since 2001

On 14 Aug 2007 23:21:30 -0400, (Al Dykes) wrote:

In article ,
Ross Herbert wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:33:33 -0400, "Dana"
wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
egroups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power
strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are
talking
about.



I'm afraid it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.


Any device from a reputable brand that has iron/copper inductors,
MOVs
and capacitors will absorb surges. The heavier, the better to absorb
surges.


You are being a bit too "general" in your comments. This particular
thread is talking about cleaning up ac power "using a UPS". Therefore,
talking about "Any device from a reputable brand that has iron/copper
inductors, MOVs and capacitors" does not adequately qualify as being a
UPS.

pardon while I butt in here.
It is certainly true that *some* UPS units offer superior performance.
However, those tend to be very costly.

for the most part, if you buy cheap, thats what you get (ineffective
protection and short battery life to boot!).

I am not sure I trust those power strips either. I have had 2 expensive
pieces of equipment fry while plugged into those (cost a bunch of cash to
repair/replace).

Someone else pointed out (and I agree with this assessment) that perhaps a
combination of technologies is needed for comprehensive
protection/prevention.

to that end, the mains breaker can be protected, each circuit can have its
own surge and Over-Voltage Protection and then there are UPS units for the
computers (I have 12 running here atm). This is a scenario called "defense
in depth" and it works very well.

anyway, all this flame throwing and "attack the messenger" doesn't help
matters any. only cold, hard facts will prevail.

DE N7ZZT
Eric Oyen
Phoenix, Arizona

Dana wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are talking
about.

now here is someone who has done some valid research (thank you!).

Some of us in the Ham radio corps (like me) tend to "over do it" on
grounding (for fairly obvious reasons). so far, that over engineering on my
part has saved a lot more than would have ordinarily been the case. still,
I should referr everyone back to my "defense in depth" proposal.

Again, thank you for the timely (and useful) info Bud--.

DE N7ZZT
Eric Oyen


bud-- wrote:

The IEEE guide explains plug-in suppressors work by CLAMPING the voltage
on all wires (signal and power) to the common ground at the suppressor.
Plug-in suppressors do not work primarily by earthing (or stopping or
absorbing) . The guide explains earthing occurs elsewhere. (Read the
guide starting pdf page 40). UPSs may or may not have the same surge
suppression.

Note that all interconnected equipment needs to be connected to the same
plug-in suppressor, or interconnecting wires need to go through the
suppressor. External connections, like phone, also need to go through
the suppressor. Connecting all wiring through the suppressor prevents
damaging voltages between power and signal wires (including induced from
nearby strikes). These multiport suppressors are described in both guides.

According to NIST guide, US insurance information indicates equipment
most frequently damaged by lightning is
computers with a modem connection
TVs, VCRs and similar equipment (presumably with cable TV
connections).
All can be damaged by high voltages between power and signal wires.

--
bud--

"Ross Herbert" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 21:33:33 -0400, "Dana" wrote:


"w_tom" wrote in message
groups.com...
On Aug 13, 10:08 pm, "Dana" wrote:
Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power
strip.

If true,

It is true. You are sounding like you have no idea of what you are
talking
about.



I'm afraid it is you who does not know what you are talking about.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will barely
protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from line
surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running during a line
outage. No power strip will provide power during a line outage.

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will barely
protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from line
surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running during a line
outage. No power strip will provide power during a line outage.

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing the same
point...?

FBt

Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will barely
protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from line
surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running during a line
outage. No power strip will provide power during a line outage.

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing the same
point...?

FBt

No, the "hogwash" fellow doesn't understand that the UPS units that cost under $200 are basically a surge strip followed by a solid state switch that switches to battery power when the source gets too bad. And that many "good" surge strips are better at surge protection than what is built into low end UPS units.

His comment that a UPS is better than a power strip is true only if the UPS is designed with better surge protection than the power strip and that you can about voltage outages. As a blanket statement it doesn't hold water.

And since (as I think Tom pointed out) the joule rating is a measure of how much surge energy a surge protection device can absorb before it wears out, you have to think about how much surge protection that 3 year old UPS is really providing.

Measuring the surge protection remaining is expensive and really not worth it. I tell folks to buy 2000 joule or higher units and treat them as power strips after 3 years, less if you know of any nearby strikes. Actually if you have a nearby strike, just assume it's a power strip and replace it. I'm in an area with regular thunder storms. Not like Kansas but enough. If I lived in Kansas I'd likely switch to a 1 or 2 year cycle.

David

"DLR" wrote in message
. ..
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will
barely protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from
line surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running
during a line outage. No power strip will provide power during a line
outage.

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing the
same point...?

FBt

No, the "hogwash" fellow doesn't understand that the UPS units that cost
under $200

I am not talking about UPS's that cost under 500.
The UPS's I am talking about are not typically used at home, or in very
small companies.



are basically a surge strip followed by a solid state switch that switches
to battery power when the source gets too bad. And that many "good" surge
strips are better at surge protection than what is built into low end UPS
units.

And again, even for home use, a power strip does not provide power when
there is an outage, for you to think otherwise is silly.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 15:41:07 GMT, Esther & Fester Bestertester
wrote:

Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type
you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power
system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone, will
barely
protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will protect from
line
surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment running
during a line
outage. No power strip will provide power during a line outage.

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing the
same
point...?

FBt


You are missing the point. Dana is saying that a common line
interactice UPS used for mains backup provides superior ability to
clean up incoming mains power better than a regular power anti-surge
board.

I am saying this is totally incorrect. The truth is that a line
interactive UPS (as Dana referred to) has only the barest minimum
anti-surge capability inbuilt at the front end where the mains comes
in (that's why they are so cheap). It is similar to the normal MOV
devices you find in the power boards. When mains supply is present the
only part the UPS plays in cleaning up the supply is via these MOV
devices. There is absolutely nothing else between the mains input plug
and the mains output plug on the UPS since the internal DC - AC
converter is bypassed. ONLY the double conversion UPS has the ability
to clean up the incoming ac since it is "regenerating" the output
voltage and frequency using its sinewave DC- AC converter 100% of the
time mains is present.

On Wed, 15 Aug 2007 20:59:05 -0400, "Dana" wrote:


"DLR" wrote in message
...
Esther & Fester Bestertester wrote:
Your claim is true, if and only if, you are talking about a
double
conversion UPS. The normal line interactive backup UPS (the type
you
were referring to) has no more surge protection in it than one
of
those cheap power boards.

Hogwash, of course the UPS I am talking about is part of a power
system.
Hence you are the one who is wrong. Using a power strip alone,
will
barely protect equipment from line surges. Using a UPS will
protect from
line surges as well as more importantly keep your equipment
running
during a line outage. No power strip will provide power during a
line
outage.

It might just be me, but does it sound like these two are arguing
the
same point...?

FBt

No, the "hogwash" fellow doesn't understand that the UPS units that
cost
under $200

I am not talking about UPS's that cost under 500.
The UPS's I am talking about are not typically used at home, or in
very
small companies.


It's a pity you didn't clarify what you were meaning before now
because your previous comments appeared to apply to even the lower
priced UPS.

quotes:
"Keep on believing that crock. A UPS is way better than a power
strip."

and

"Unless you have a very cheap UPS, most power from a UPS during
battery operation is quite clean."

Q. how cheap is very cheap? obviously your answer has to be "under
$500".

You have only just now specified that you weren't talking about a UPS
under $500 but even that doesn't quite hack it because the price of
even a cheap unit depends on the power output rating (which you didn't
specify). You can buy line interactive UPS up to several Kva costing
$1000's which are just upscaled versions of the cheaper line
interactive units. They still only have MOV's on the supply input and
the normal mains supply goes straight through to the equipment.

And you won't find a double conversion UPS under 1Kva and that will
cost over $1K at the very least.



are basically a surge strip followed by a solid state switch that
switches
to battery power when the source gets too bad. And that many "good"
surge
strips are better at surge protection than what is built into low end
UPS
units.

And again, even for home use, a power strip does not provide power
when
there is an outage, for you to think otherwise is silly.



Well, you now seem to be now saying the same thing as myself. It is a
pity you didn't say it earlier.