During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components and
even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought indoors to
warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

On Feb 5, 7:51 am, Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:02:47 -0800, wylbur37 Has Frothed:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

What about electronic components in aircraft that are exposed to temps of
up tp -60F?

Aircraft components, because they're expected to be exposed to
extreme
temperatures (both hot and cold), are specifically designed to use
materials that withstand such temperatures.

Consumer electronics, on the other hand, I would not expect to be
designed to such high standards.

"wylbur37" wrote in
ups.com:

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be
for damage to occur?

What about electronic components in aircraft that are exposed to
temps of up tp -60F?

Aircraft components, because they're expected to be exposed to
extreme
temperatures (both hot and cold), are specifically designed to use
materials that withstand such temperatures.

Consumer electronics, on the other hand, I would not expect to be
designed to such high standards.


N Cook said it right, the main problem is water getting in. Most electronic
parts are emuch happier with clod than with heat. A few things to watch for
though: laser diodes, for example, they run more efficiently cold, and you
have to scale their input currents down for safe maximum output power, so
writing a DVD at full speed in a cold machine might make the drive die. I'm
sure they compensate for this, but I doubt they're intended to be used for
that at freezing temperatures or lower. LCD's also don't like freezing.
They recover when warm. but while cold they are sluggish, and below
freezing point of water, will probably display nothing. I'm sure there are
plenty of specific parts with specific heat dependencies, but few will be
permanently damaged. As for connector reliability, it is hard to know. It
might increase the resistance, or it might help it overcome a molecular
layer of corrosion and reduce the resistance, improving the contact. A
well-made connector will probably be unaffected in any way you can easily
detect.

In article ,
"N Cook" wrote:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components and
even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought indoors to
warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/



The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al

On 5 Feb 2007 04:02:47 -0800, "wylbur37"
wrote:

During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Damage can and will occur if you power up a computer sitting at 10
degrees (anything below about 50 is risky). The hard drive
lubrication is thick and the speed of rotation can be low enough to
let the heads contact the disk.

And there's a risk of condensation or frost on the electronics boards.
Fluorescent back lights may not work. LCD screens ditto

But you are probably safe to store a computer at that temperature for
a time then let it warm and sit for a time to allow any moisture to
evaporate
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

N Cook wrote:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components and
even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought indoors
to warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

I wonder whether "Tin Pest" will change this situation with lead free
solders. As far as I understand it, under 13 degrees C, the tin can change
to a different crystal structure, which happens to occupy a different
physical volume, leading to obvious mechanical problems with solder joints.

Chris

"Meat Plow" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 04:02:47 -0800, wylbur37 Has Frothed:

During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

What about electronic components in aircraft that are exposed to temps of
up tp -60F?



Ex-military electronics tech here... Almost all electronic assemblies that are
routinely exposed to temperature extremes are conformally coated with a silicone
or urethane "varnish" that keeps the condensate from getting to the PCB and
components on the PCB. Although not impervious to damage from soaking in salt
water or corrosive atmospheres, it does an admirable job in keeping the
equipment running.
The components are also rated to operate within specs at those temperature
extremes. The mil temperature range is -55C to +125C, which is easily
experienced by equipment in aircraft and land-based mobile equipment.
That's one reason why military equipment and components cost more.

In contrast, equipment and components that are rated for automotive service are
rated for higher temperatures as well, but not to the extremes of military
components. If memory serves, the industrial/automotive temperature range
is -40C to +85C. Conformal coatings and potting are methods used to protect
components and equipment used in those environments. The relative reliability
of present-day automotive electronics over those of 20 years ago is a testament
to the advances in component and assembly construction.

The commercial temperature range (including consumer electronics) is 0C to 70C.
Most PCs are constructed with commercial grade components. 0C is 32F, so you
can draw your own conclusions as to the reliability of a PC at sub-zero temps.
That's not to say that they won't work, but you shouldn't be surprised if they
don't. If a PC (or laptop) has been exposed to sub-freezing temps long enough
for all the components to acquiesce to the surrounding temperature, then it
would be prudent to allow it to thoroughly warm up to room temperature before
turning it on.
Condensation is a problem in those instances, since the internal components and
PCB are not protected by a conformal coating. True enough, most PCBs have a
solder mask that does a pretty good job at protecting the traces, the protection
does not extend to the components.

Cheers!!!
--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Some days you're the dog, some days the hydrant.

In article . com,
(known to some as wylbur37) scribed...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

The item most susceptible to such damage in a laptop would be the
display. LCD means 'Liquid Crystal Display,' and that liquid that holds
the crystals suspended does indeed have a freezing point.

Permanent and irreparable damage can be done to such displays if
they freeze. There are industrial-grade displays which are explicitly
designed and built for service at low temperatures, but they are
considerably more expensive than the typical 'consumer' display. I doubt
that you would find such in a laptop (or any other portable computer)
outside of the high-end ruggedized models made by GETAC, Dolch, and
Panasonic (the "Toughbook" series for the latter).

As to the other electronics: The standard "Commercial" operating
temperature range for most components is 0c (32f) to 50c (122f). You may
want to check the specifications for your specific laptop, but I would
say that 10f is way too cold to be operating such a device.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

No. Sustained exposure to 10 degrees F will freeze and permanently
damage the display, unless the laptop is explicitly designed and built
to withstand such (only your spec sheet will tell you).

Keep the peace(es).


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, KC7GR)
http://www.bluefeathertech.com -- kyrrin a/t bluefeathertech d-o=t calm
"Salvadore Dali's computer has surreal ports..."

"N Cook" wrote in
:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components
and even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought
indoors to warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with
condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




I bet the LCD displays don't like very cold temps.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:14:11 -0500 default wrote
in Message id: :

The hard drive
lubrication is thick and the speed of rotation can be low enough to
let the heads contact the disk.

Doubtful. A hard drive does not load the heads until the platters are up
to speed.

"DaveM" writes:

In contrast, equipment and components that are rated for automotive
service are rated for higher temperatures as well, but not to the
extremes of military components. If memory serves, the
industrial/automotive temperature range is -40C to +85C.

Stuff that goes in the engine bay tends to be speced to +125 degC.
In-cab stuff usually gets away with 85 degC, but some of it not even
that. [We have a forward looking camera system that gets *really* hot
when it sits in the sun, so we have to use 85 deg rated parts, even
though it is mounted on the windscreen, in cab.]

Conformal coatings and potting are methods used to protect
components and equipment used in those environments. The relative
reliability of present-day automotive electronics over those of 20
years ago is a testament to the advances in component and assembly
construction.


Agreed!

Cheers,
Martin

--

TRW Conekt - Consultancy in Engineering, Knowledge and Technology
http://www.conekt.net/electronics.html

On Tue, 06 Feb 2007 05:59:32 -0500, JW wrote:

On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 16:14:11 -0500 default wrote
in Message id: :

The hard drive
lubrication is thick and the speed of rotation can be low enough to
let the heads contact the disk.

Doubtful. A hard drive does not load the heads until the platters are up
to speed.

That's what I thought. I use slide in hds on my desktop for backups,
then they go into a different area for storage. Lost the D drive on a
cold start (~50 deg.) and didn't think much about it but dragged out
the backup drive that was stored at 40 deg. Instant audible
destruction. I'm guessing the mechanism was a thick lubricant - but
don't know that for a fact. I looked up the specification on the
drive and it was 0 deg - 160 degrees for storage and 45 -110 for
operating temperature.

There was no doubt what the sound was, the old Winchesters would fail
that way - come into work on a Monday and you could hear it as soon as
the elevator doors opened. The drives were under warranty so I didn't
open them.

Both drives were relatively new Hitachi/IBM.

I rigged a little heater I can put in under the drives and let them
warm for a few hours before powering if the room temp is below 60.
Maybe there is no correlation between the temperature and failure -
but with the work involved in switching a drive, I'm not prepared to
take the chance.
--

----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----

Jim Yanik wrote in message
...
"N Cook" wrote in
:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components
and even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought
indoors to warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with
condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




I bet the LCD displays don't like very cold temps.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

A common failure mode for numeric display LCDs is bleeding-over so whole
areas go "black" rather than just the segments. I've never found out what
causes that - freezing ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

"N Cook" wrote in :

Jim Yanik wrote in message
...
"N Cook" wrote in
:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components
and even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought
indoors to warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with
condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




I bet the LCD displays don't like very cold temps.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

A common failure mode for numeric display LCDs is bleeding-over so whole
areas go "black" rather than just the segments. I've never found out what
causes that - freezing ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/





I've seen LCD displays in -hot- temps go black.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

Jim Yanik wrote in message
...
"N Cook" wrote in :

Jim Yanik wrote in message
...
"N Cook" wrote in
:

wylbur37 wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused
by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


It is more a question of water condensation on traces and components
and even into components via capillary action when the kit is brought
indoors to warm air, plus mechanical problems again more to do with
condensation

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/




I bet the LCD displays don't like very cold temps.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

A common failure mode for numeric display LCDs is bleeding-over so whole
areas go "black" rather than just the segments. I've never found out
what
causes that - freezing ?

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/





I've seen LCD displays in -hot- temps go black.

--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
kua.net

A common factor I found was they were left unused/stored for some time
indoors, not in sheds, so i find it difficult to believe it is due to heat
or cold

--
Diverse Devices, Southampton, England
electronic hints and repair briefs , schematics/manuals list on
http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

this is the kind of topic where useful info is shared and learned by
nebisches as i
..



"wylbur37" wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:08:38 GMT, wrote:

this is the kind of topic where useful info is shared and learned by
nebisches as i
.



"wylbur37" wrote in message
oups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?



Most semiconductors have storage temperature ratings of -65 C. That
indicates that there would be no damage down to that point. However,
the designer probably anticipated a narrower range of operating
temperatures.

The characteristics of the semiconductors (and some passive
components) change with temperature so there could be performance
failure at temperatures below the design goals. Such a failure is
unlikely to be catastrophic but all bets are off beyond the design
limits.

Dig out the manual that came with the computer and see what it
specifies for operating temperature range. To be safe, turn the unit
off if it is going to be exposed to temperatures outside that range.

JMHO

John

I would think that the more obvious problem would be the moisture that would
condense on all surfaces of it when it's brought in cold and it hits the
warmer moist air inside. Letting it temperature stabilize would take care
of that.

WT

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:08:38 GMT, wrote:

this is the kind of topic where useful info is shared and learned by
nebisches as i
.



"wylbur37" wrote in message
roups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?



Most semiconductors have storage temperature ratings of -65 C. That
indicates that there would be no damage down to that point. However,
the designer probably anticipated a narrower range of operating
temperatures.

The characteristics of the semiconductors (and some passive
components) change with temperature so there could be performance
failure at temperatures below the design goals. Such a failure is
unlikely to be catastrophic but all bets are off beyond the design
limits.

Dig out the manual that came with the computer and see what it
specifies for operating temperature range. To be safe, turn the unit
off if it is going to be exposed to temperatures outside that range.

JMHO

John



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Wayne Tiffany wrote:
I would think that the more obvious problem would be the moisture
that would condense on all surfaces of it when it's brought in cold
and it hits the warmer moist air inside. Letting it temperature
stabilize would take care of that.

WT

"John Bachman" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:08:38 GMT, wrote:

this is the kind of topic where useful info is shared and learned by
nebisches as i
.



"wylbur37" wrote in message
ups.com...
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused
by too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of
expansion and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be
for damage to occur?



Most semiconductors have storage temperature ratings of -65 C. That
indicates that there would be no damage down to that point. However,
the designer probably anticipated a narrower range of operating
temperatures.

The characteristics of the semiconductors (and some passive
components) change with temperature so there could be performance
failure at temperatures below the design goals. Such a failure is
unlikely to be catastrophic but all bets are off beyond the design
limits.

Dig out the manual that came with the computer and see what it
specifies for operating temperature range. To be safe, turn the unit
off if it is going to be exposed to temperatures outside that range.

JMHO

John

What about electrolytic capacitors freezing?

Mark Z.

Al wrote:
(snip)
The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al


You make an excellent point, Al, that nobody else here brought up (as far as
I've read). Thermal cycling stresses solder joints. Period. Repeated stress
eventually causes strain (damage). Period.

In a former life I was an engineer in Packaging Assurance at a major U.S.
business machine company. Our life projection testing included thermal cycling
in the range 0C-100C specifically because thermal cycling produces stress and
stress precipitates strain ... i.e. component failure.

So exposing e.g. your laptop to thermal cycling - be that room temp. - hot car
- room temp. or room temp - cold car - room temp - is decidedly a Bad
Thing. Maintaining your electronics at a *constant* temperature during its
entire life is impractical but would go a long way toward extending its life.

Then again, who really cares if a laptop dies after only a couple years? Within
that relatively short period of time it is superceeded, at least twice, by
newer-faster-better.

So says this guy, who still uses a PC-AT, a vintage 1993 80486-20 laptop, and a
vintage 1998 Pentium II-350 desktop PC.

In article ,
Michael wrote:

Al wrote:
(snip)
The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al


You make an excellent point, Al, that nobody else here brought up (as far as
I've read). Thermal cycling stresses solder joints. Period. Repeated
stress
eventually causes strain (damage). Period.

In a former life I was an engineer in Packaging Assurance at a major U.S.
business machine company. Our life projection testing included thermal
cycling
in the range 0C-100C specifically because thermal cycling produces stress and
stress precipitates strain ... i.e. component failure.

So exposing e.g. your laptop to thermal cycling - be that room temp. - hot
car
- room temp. or room temp - cold car - room temp - is decidedly a Bad
Thing. Maintaining your electronics at a *constant* temperature during its
entire life is impractical but would go a long way toward extending its life.

Then again, who really cares if a laptop dies after only a couple years?
Within
that relatively short period of time it is superceeded, at least twice, by
newer-faster-better.

So says this guy, who still uses a PC-AT, a vintage 1993 80486-20 laptop, and
a
vintage 1998 Pentium II-350 desktop PC.

And I did component failure analysis at a major defense contractor. I've
seen it too many times. And another one was tin whiskers between solder
joints. ;-) Can't wait to see what happens with the new lead free
solders. It'll be a bonanza for us failure analysts.

Al

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:55:11 GMT, Al wrote:

In article ,
Michael wrote:

Al wrote:
(snip)
The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al


You make an excellent point, Al, that nobody else here brought up (as far as
I've read). Thermal cycling stresses solder joints. Period. Repeated
stress
eventually causes strain (damage). Period.

In a former life I was an engineer in Packaging Assurance at a major U.S.
business machine company. Our life projection testing included thermal
cycling
in the range 0C-100C specifically because thermal cycling produces stress and
stress precipitates strain ... i.e. component failure.

So exposing e.g. your laptop to thermal cycling - be that room temp. - hot
car
- room temp. or room temp - cold car - room temp - is decidedly a Bad
Thing. Maintaining your electronics at a *constant* temperature during its
entire life is impractical but would go a long way toward extending its life.

Then again, who really cares if a laptop dies after only a couple years?
Within
that relatively short period of time it is superceeded, at least twice, by
newer-faster-better.

So says this guy, who still uses a PC-AT, a vintage 1993 80486-20 laptop, and
a
vintage 1998 Pentium II-350 desktop PC.

And I did component failure analysis at a major defense contractor. I've
seen it too many times. And another one was tin whiskers between solder
joints. ;-) Can't wait to see what happens with the new lead free
solders. It'll be a bonanza for us failure analysts.

Al

RoHS solder has already shown itself to be substandard in this
respect, and we'll be seeing lots of these failures as the standard
becomes the rule in the rest of the world. Course, Europe will lead
the way in broken electronics gear!

Now that was done to reduce 'hazardous' materials in the disposal
chain. Wait... So now they throw away *more* stuff because it breaks
more quickly? That's efficiency?

PeterD wrote:

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 20:55:11 GMT, Al wrote:

In article ,
Michael wrote:

Al wrote:
(snip)
The problem is with temperature cycling. The solder joints eventually
fracture and lead to either intermittents or opens. You can really
stress you electronics by letting it cold soak and then turning it on.
It may not fail immediately, but you have shortened its life.

Al


You make an excellent point, Al, that nobody else here brought up (as
far as
I've read). Thermal cycling stresses solder joints. Period. Repeated
stress
eventually causes strain (damage). Period.

In a former life I was an engineer in Packaging Assurance at a major
U.S.
business machine company. Our life projection testing included thermal
cycling
in the range 0C-100C specifically because thermal cycling produces
stress and stress precipitates strain ... i.e. component failure.

So exposing e.g. your laptop to thermal cycling - be that room temp. -
hot car
- room temp. or room temp - cold car - room temp - is decidedly a
Bad
Thing. Maintaining your electronics at a *constant* temperature during
its entire life is impractical but would go a long way toward extending
its life.

Then again, who really cares if a laptop dies after only a couple years?
Within
that relatively short period of time it is superceeded, at least twice,
by newer-faster-better.

So says this guy, who still uses a PC-AT, a vintage 1993 80486-20
laptop, and a
vintage 1998 Pentium II-350 desktop PC.

And I did component failure analysis at a major defense contractor. I've
seen it too many times. And another one was tin whiskers between solder
joints. ;-) Can't wait to see what happens with the new lead free
solders. It'll be a bonanza for us failure analysts.

Al

RoHS solder has already shown itself to be substandard in this
respect, and we'll be seeing lots of these failures as the standard
becomes the rule in the rest of the world. Course, Europe will lead
the way in broken electronics gear!

Now that was done to reduce 'hazardous' materials in the disposal
chain. Wait... So now they throw away *more* stuff because it breaks
more quickly? That's efficiency?

I'd also like to know if "tin pest" has started happening. I guess the
first place to check would be some cold country because it's supposed to
happen below 13 degrees C.

Chris

On Feb 5, 5:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

The only way that can happen is if there is moister in the air,
machines produce heat and that promotes condensation, this can be
dangerous to your machine..
As far as the expanding and contracting of electronic parts, they have
been tested for such tolerances, and that should not be a problem.

Most equipment comes with temperature specifications. For example, here
are the environmental specifications for my IBM Thinkpad T22:

- Operating: 5 degrees to 35 degrees C (41 degrees to 95 degrees F)
(without diskette)
- Operating: 10 degrees to 35 degrees C (50 degrees to 95 degrees F)
(with diskette inside unit)
- System off: 5 degrees to 43 degrees C (41 degrees to 110 degrees F)
- Storage/shipment: -20 degrees to 60 degrees C (-4 degrees to 140
degrees F)

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.

sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.


How big are the hard drives?

--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 6 Mar 2007 13:11:27 -0800 "sparky" wrote in
Message id: .com:


Low temperatures do not bother electronic components.

Not true. I've seen more than a few switch mode power supplies that would
not start at temperatures below 0 Celsius.

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.



The last paragraph is not true. Electronic components have specific storage and
operating temperature ranges. Those with wider temperature specs will operate
in much hotter and colder temperatures than others. The industry-recognized
commercial temp range is 0C to +70C; the automotive range is -40C to +125C; the
industrial range is -40C to +85C; the military range is -55C to +125C. Some
manufacturers have differing definitions of these ranges, but these are most
often used.
I know from personal experience in both military and industrial environments
that using the wrong temperature range components can result in equipment
failure, and at the most importune time.
Using commercial range ICs in military aircraft, especially in the avionics,
will result in a failure almost immediately when the air temp at 50,000 feet
drops to -40C. I was involved in an incident a few years ago where a peice of
navigation equipment in a F-14 was repaired using an commercial grade IC. The
previous tech didn't realize that was an important aspect; he just looked at the
basic part number and replaced it with a commercial grade IC, not a mil-grade
IC. The equipment failed within 10 minutes after the plane left the ground, but
performed flawlessly when the equipment was put back on the bench. It took
about 30 hours of bench time and investigation to find the problem.
Lots of lost time and money, and if this had been in a combat situation,
potential loss of an expensive airplane and human life.


--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it goes.

sparky wrote:
On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:

During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.



Not true. You've drawn a generalization covering all
electronic components, based on a limited observation
of 2 pieces of electronic equipment. Take a look at
the datasheets for the LM7805Axx or the LM317Axx voltage
regulators, just two examples. The minimum operating
temperature for them is 0 degrees C. Your radio may
work - but my 2 meter ham radio won't even turn on
when the overnight temperature is below 0 (and nowhere
near 40 below).

You may have one hell of a job getting a DMM to work
at all at -40 or even 0, and even if it does, its accuracy
is indeterminate. For example the Extech MM560 spec
for operating temperature is 41 degrees F to 104 degrees F.
The operating spec for the Fluke 189 is -20 C to 55 C.
The accuracy goes out the window, too. The Fluke accuracy
spec is defined only for the range +18C to +28C, and even
then a temperature coefficient must be applied. It can
be tough for an LCD to display at low temperatures.


Ed

On Mar 7, 6:29 am, JW wrote:
On 6 Mar 2007 13:11:27 -0800 "sparky" wrote in
Message id: .com:



Low temperatures do not bother electronic components.

Not true. I've seen more than a few switch mode power supplies that would
not start at temperatures below 0 Celsius.

Quite possibly a marginal capacitor before the cold weather affected
it.
Just a problem waiting for the right conditions.

DaveM wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.


The last paragraph is not true. Electronic components have specific storage and
operating temperature ranges. Those with wider temperature specs will operate
in much hotter and colder temperatures than others. The industry-recognized
commercial temp range is 0C to +70C; the automotive range is -40C to +125C; the
industrial range is -40C to +85C; the military range is -55C to +125C. Some
manufacturers have differing definitions of these ranges, but these are most
often used.
I know from personal experience in both military and industrial environments
that using the wrong temperature range components can result in equipment
failure, and at the most importune time.
Using commercial range ICs in military aircraft, especially in the avionics,
will result in a failure almost immediately when the air temp at 50,000 feet
drops to -40C. I was involved in an incident a few years ago where a peice of
navigation equipment in a F-14 was repaired using an commercial grade IC. The
previous tech didn't realize that was an important aspect; he just looked at the
basic part number and replaced it with a commercial grade IC, not a mil-grade
IC. The equipment failed within 10 minutes after the plane left the ground, but
performed flawlessly when the equipment was put back on the bench. It took
about 30 hours of bench time and investigation to find the problem.
Lots of lost time and money, and if this had been in a combat situation,
potential loss of an expensive airplane and human life.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it goes.


I did not write any of the text you quoted.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
DaveM wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.


The last paragraph is not true. Electronic components have specific storage
and
operating temperature ranges. Those with wider temperature specs will
operate
in much hotter and colder temperatures than others. The industry-recognized
commercial temp range is 0C to +70C; the automotive range is -40C to +125C;
the
industrial range is -40C to +85C; the military range is -55C to +125C. Some
manufacturers have differing definitions of these ranges, but these are most
often used.
I know from personal experience in both military and industrial environments
that using the wrong temperature range components can result in equipment
failure, and at the most importune time.
Using commercial range ICs in military aircraft, especially in the avionics,
will result in a failure almost immediately when the air temp at 50,000 feet
drops to -40C. I was involved in an incident a few years ago where a peice
of
navigation equipment in a F-14 was repaired using an commercial grade IC.
The
previous tech didn't realize that was an important aspect; he just looked at
the
basic part number and replaced it with a commercial grade IC, not a mil-grade
IC. The equipment failed within 10 minutes after the plane left the ground,
but
performed flawlessly when the equipment was put back on the bench. It took
about 30 hours of bench time and investigation to find the problem.
Lots of lost time and money, and if this had been in a combat situation,
potential loss of an expensive airplane and human life.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in
the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it
goes.


I did not write any of the text you quoted.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida


Huh?? I didn't say you did. Sorry if I left that impression.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it goes.

DaveM wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
DaveM wrote:

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
...
sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:
During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?

Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.


The last paragraph is not true. Electronic components have specific storage
and
operating temperature ranges. Those with wider temperature specs will
operate
in much hotter and colder temperatures than others. The industry-recognized
commercial temp range is 0C to +70C; the automotive range is -40C to +125C;
the
industrial range is -40C to +85C; the military range is -55C to +125C. Some
manufacturers have differing definitions of these ranges, but these are most
often used.
I know from personal experience in both military and industrial environments
that using the wrong temperature range components can result in equipment
failure, and at the most importune time.
Using commercial range ICs in military aircraft, especially in the avionics,
will result in a failure almost immediately when the air temp at 50,000 feet
drops to -40C. I was involved in an incident a few years ago where a peice
of
navigation equipment in a F-14 was repaired using an commercial grade IC.
The
previous tech didn't realize that was an important aspect; he just looked at
the
basic part number and replaced it with a commercial grade IC, not a mil-grade
IC. The equipment failed within 10 minutes after the plane left the ground,
but
performed flawlessly when the equipment was put back on the bench. It took
about 30 hours of bench time and investigation to find the problem.
Lots of lost time and money, and if this had been in a combat situation,
potential loss of an expensive airplane and human life.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in
the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it
goes.


I did not write any of the text you quoted.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

Huh?? I didn't say you did. Sorry if I left that impression.

--
Dave M
MasonDG44 at comcast dot net (Just substitute the appropriate characters in the
address)

Life is like a roll of toilet paper; the closer to the end, the faster it goes.



Your reply followed my message. A lot of people will assume that I
wrote what you replied to. You also removed my reply to the previous
message, further giving that impression.


--
Service to my country? Been there, Done that, and I've got my DD214 to
prove it.
Member of DAV #85.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

On 7 Mar 2007 14:48:48 -0800 "sparky" wrote in
Message id: .com:

On Mar 7, 6:29 am, JW wrote:
On 6 Mar 2007 13:11:27 -0800 "sparky" wrote in
Message id: .com:



Low temperatures do not bother electronic components.

Not true. I've seen more than a few switch mode power supplies that would
not start at temperatures below 0 Celsius.

Quite possibly a marginal capacitor before the cold weather affected
it.
Just a problem waiting for the right conditions.

Nope. Brand new power supplies from different manufacturers. Not just one,
but all of them. You are correct it stating that it's most likely due to
the capacitors, though. As temperatures get lower, ESR increases while
capacity decreases.

In article h_GHh.11732$Tf.10086@trndny03,
ehsjr wrote:

sparky wrote:
On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:

During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.



Not true. You've drawn a generalization covering all
electronic components, based on a limited observation
of 2 pieces of electronic equipment. Take a look at
the datasheets for the LM7805Axx or the LM317Axx voltage
regulators, just two examples. The minimum operating
temperature for them is 0 degrees C. Your radio may
work - but my 2 meter ham radio won't even turn on
when the overnight temperature is below 0 (and nowhere
near 40 below).

You may have one hell of a job getting a DMM to work
at all at -40 or even 0, and even if it does, its accuracy
is indeterminate. For example the Extech MM560 spec
for operating temperature is 41 degrees F to 104 degrees F.
The operating spec for the Fluke 189 is -20 C to 55 C.
The accuracy goes out the window, too. The Fluke accuracy
spec is defined only for the range +18C to +28C, and even
then a temperature coefficient must be applied. It can
be tough for an LCD to display at low temperatures.


Ed

Perhaps a little clarification is in order. The minimum temperature
specs refer to what the manufacturers "guarentee." They may well operate
at lower temperatures, or higher temperatures. Just don't go back and
demand redress if something fails outside of the guarenteed limits.

How do I know? We, ahem, used to condition commercial spec'd parts using
the military temperature operating conditions and selected those which
would work under the military conditions. I suspect that manufacturers
did that also.

Why did we do that? Because not all parts are spec'd to military
requirements and sometimes they are absolutely needed. No many COT items
can withstand extremem operating conditions.

Al

Al wrote:
In article h_GHh.11732$Tf.10086@trndny03,
ehsjr wrote:


sparky wrote:

On Feb 5, 7:02 am, "wylbur37" wrote:


During the winter season, outside temperatures can go down to 10
degrees Farenheit or lower.

Since many people carry their laptop computers to and from work
each day, I was wondering whether exposure to cold temperatures
can damage computer components or circuit boards.

My guess is that 10 degrees F is probably not cold enough to cause
damage, and that any temperature-related damage is probably caused by
too rapid a change in temperature (cracking as a result of expansion
and contraction).

Am I correct on this?

If 10 degrees F is not cold enough, how cold would it have to be for
damage to occur?


Low temperatures do not bother electronic components. The computer on
my vehicle operates reliably at more than -40 degrees C. So does the
radio in my vehicle.



Not true. You've drawn a generalization covering all
electronic components, based on a limited observation
of 2 pieces of electronic equipment. Take a look at
the datasheets for the LM7805Axx or the LM317Axx voltage
regulators, just two examples. The minimum operating
temperature for them is 0 degrees C. Your radio may
work - but my 2 meter ham radio won't even turn on
when the overnight temperature is below 0 (and nowhere
near 40 below).

You may have one hell of a job getting a DMM to work
at all at -40 or even 0, and even if it does, its accuracy
is indeterminate. For example the Extech MM560 spec
for operating temperature is 41 degrees F to 104 degrees F.
The operating spec for the Fluke 189 is -20 C to 55 C.
The accuracy goes out the window, too. The Fluke accuracy
spec is defined only for the range +18C to +28C, and even
then a temperature coefficient must be applied. It can
be tough for an LCD to display at low temperatures.


Ed


Perhaps a little clarification is in order.

Right. The statement under contention was:
"Low temperatures do not bother electronic components."
Your last sentence says it all:
"No many COT items can withstand extremem operating conditions."

The rest of your post is right on, too.

Ed

The minimum temperature
specs refer to what the manufacturers "guarentee." They may well operate
at lower temperatures, or higher temperatures. Just don't go back and
demand redress if something fails outside of the guarenteed limits.

How do I know? We, ahem, used to condition commercial spec'd parts using
the military temperature operating conditions and selected those which
would work under the military conditions. I suspect that manufacturers
did that also.

Why did we do that? Because not all parts are spec'd to military
requirements and sometimes they are absolutely needed. No many COT items
can withstand extremem operating conditions.

Al