I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really smooth - no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and stable, or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem - you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movement
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a bit. No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out to the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

Jim Bailey wrote:

....
Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem - you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movement
bugs me a bit.
....

Sounds like undersized biscuits or slightly oversize cutter--is there a
burr on the edge of the cutter by any chance?

The slot w/ my Ryobi is snug enough that it takes a really firm tug to
pull a dry one out of the slot directly normal to the face.

Horizontal alignment is, of course there to allow some movement, but the
vertical slack shouldn't be anyways near 1/32"...

I have a 557 (and a 555 before that).
My biscuits go in easily, but fit snuggly enough to not readily fall out.
Just for fun I did a joint up once with just water and it was pretty solid.
Occasionally if I am a little slow on my gluing, I have to really crank on
the clamp to get it together.
I would say your biscuits are undersized or you are not using the joiner
properly.

Sorry.

No.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be
with this method ?

1) The biscuits could be bad (too thin). I buy Porter-Cable brand just
because I like the container. But check the biscuits. Most would be too
tight to fit, but supposed to slide in nice and snug.

2) The blade may not be tighten or may be crooked.

3) You should be holding the fence tight to the wood, thus nothing would
be able to slide or move, only a "take-your-time" push the motor straight
and back easily.

4) If all fails, take it back. If you still experience the same thing,
then it must be something you not doing it right.

After all is satisfactory, search for O'Shim (I forgot what name it was).

Chuck

Duane Bozarth wrote:

Jim Bailey wrote:

...
Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem - you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movement
bugs me a bit.
...

Sounds like undersized biscuits or slightly oversize cutter--is there a
burr on the edge of the cutter by any chance?
....

Or, more likely is the blade truly flat or did the cutter get dropped,
perhaps? Or is it aligned on the arbor or a small burr under it to make
it not quite true on the shaft (wobble)?

Make sure you hold the tool firmly on the surface of the workpiece and
don't let it tilt during the slotting operation...

I have only used Porte Cable brand biscuits. I have found that the quality
control on the biscuits is not perfect. About 1 out of 20 will fit sloppy in
the slot, or won't go in at all. When this happens, I toss it and grab
another. As another poster stated, it could be that your cutter is
oversized, or burred, but I find this hard to believe. Have you trid cutting
multiple slots? Do they all do it?


Joe in Denver
my woodworking website:
http://www.the-wildings.com/shop/

"Jim Bailey" wrote in message
...
I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really smooth -
no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and stable,
or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of
course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem -
you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical
movement
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a bit.
No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out to
the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and
out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 20:00:31 -0000, CNT wrote:
No.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be
with this method ?

1) The biscuits could be bad (too thin). I buy Porter-Cable brand just
because I like the container. But check the biscuits. Most would be too
tight to fit, but supposed to slide in nice and snug.

Well, sure, but they do expand when the glue gets them wet. Maybe they
aren't undersized, they're just compressed more than you'd expect, and
they'll expand to the same size once installed? Easy enough to test...

I picked up my PC 557 this weekend (should have done it through Amazon,
but didn't plan far enough in advance.... sigh)

I also noticed the same thing about sloppy fit. I was able to align my
board edges (mostly) when I had the clamps put on with very light
pressure, and then finished tightening.

So - now I'm curious - what should the biscuit thickness and slot
thickness be? (I'll get out the dial calipers tonight....)

Dan

It was somewhere outside Barstow when "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance,

Why ? Get your vernier and measure it - slot too big, or biscuit too
small ?

Over-width slots are usually caused by wobble, Either you wobbling the
tool, or the blade having some wobble in it. I'd stick a dial gauge
on the blade and turn it over by hand to see if some teeth were higher
than others, either as a mis-aligned blade, or as a single damaged
tooth.

As others have noted, it could be either the joiner or the biscuits. Years
ago, Ryobi had one that cut oversized slots with the same results. Many-many
past postings here from that one. I have seen some biscuits that were rather
loose, but nearly all became at least snug when wet. If yours are still as
loose, I'd bet on the joiner.

Either get ahold of some other biscuits to try or, better yet, get or borrow a
dial caliper to measure both the slot and the biscuits (both dry and wet). If
either set of numbers are off, you'll have the problem. While several
different things could cause the problem in the joiner, you really don't care
as long as you know who's at fault here.

In the meantime, don't bother trying to use this or you'll just have alot of
grief.

GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 19:42:59 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really smooth - no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and stable, or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem - you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movement
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a bit. No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out to the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

What brand were those FREE biscuits??? Some brands tolerances are CRAP,
some brands tolerances are excellent.
Also, measure the height of the slot and compare to the width of the teeth
on the blade.

OBTY

Left and right movement is determined by the depth of the cut. That is
adjustable as a fine tune adjustment other than the coarse adjustment for
the other biscuit sizes. Left and right movement is good as it permits you
to be a little lax with cutter alignment and marking the wood.



"Leon" wrote in message
om...
What brand were those FREE biscuits??? Some brands tolerances are CRAP,
some brands tolerances are excellent.
Also, measure the height of the slot and compare to the width of the teeth
on the blade.

Hmmm...maybe a bad run of blades? That's sounds like the most likely cause.

Used to have the specs on this...no matter.
My DeWalt blade measures 0.157 on a tooth, and a cut slot measures the same.
From 1/2 dozen biscuits, I'm seeing 0.157-0.160.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:52:18 -0600, Dan Oelke wrote:


I picked up my PC 557 this weekend (should have done it through Amazon,
but didn't plan far enough in advance.... sigh)

I also noticed the same thing about sloppy fit. I was able to align my
board edges (mostly) when I had the clamps put on with very light
pressure, and then finished tightening.

So - now I'm curious - what should the biscuit thickness and slot
thickness be? (I'll get out the dial calipers tonight....)

Dan

Okay, just located Chuck Ring's notes, some of which came from Hank Metz, who
taught me about these things years ago, so this should be fairly accurate.
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...28ringpj1.html

The slot should be 5/32 or 0.156 wide.
Biscuits are spec'ed at .0.148. (However, I've never seen them that thin.)
The biscuit should swell with water to 0.164, and stay close to that when it
dries.

GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 21:51:49 GMT, GerryG wrote:

Hmmm...maybe a bad run of blades? That's sounds like the most likely cause.

Used to have the specs on this...no matter.
My DeWalt blade measures 0.157 on a tooth, and a cut slot measures the same.
From 1/2 dozen biscuits, I'm seeing 0.157-0.160.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:52:18 -0600, Dan Oelke wrote:


I picked up my PC 557 this weekend (should have done it through Amazon,
but didn't plan far enough in advance.... sigh)

I also noticed the same thing about sloppy fit. I was able to align my
board edges (mostly) when I had the clamps put on with very light
pressure, and then finished tightening.

So - now I'm curious - what should the biscuit thickness and slot
thickness be? (I'll get out the dial calipers tonight....)

Dan

Thanks to all of you ! Here's some answers to your questions and where I'm
at:

1. I don't have a dial indicator available so it's going to be difficult to
check runout, or if the blade
tips might be offset from one another.

2. I do have dial calipers - the biscuits and the tips of the blades all
measure in the vicinity of .155
+- .005 with the blade tips being pretty consistently on the low end of that
spread.

3. I tried a couple of different woods just for completeness. Same results.
I was also very careful that
the unit didn't move around while I was cutting.

4. I called PC and they transfered my call to a local (90 miles away)
service center. They said that if I couldn't bring it in to them, to mail
it to them and they'd look at it.

5. The biscuits came in a PC box - I going to assume they're PC. They're
marked USA20. They we'er a prt of the Amazon package - 1000 free biscuits
with 557 purchase.

So - I guess it's mail it to them at this point. I'm a bit dissapointed.

jim

"Jim Bailey" wrote in message
...
I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really smooth -
no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and stable,
or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of
course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem -
you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movemen
t
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a bit.
No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out to
the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and
out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

Your blade and biscuits sound okay. Suggest you measure a cut slot. If that
comes out larger, it's the joiner. If the slot width is same as the blade
tooth, something's being missed here.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:25:46 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Thanks to all of you ! Here's some answers to your questions and where I'm
at:

1. I don't have a dial indicator available so it's going to be difficult to
check runout, or if the blade
tips might be offset from one another.

2. I do have dial calipers - the biscuits and the tips of the blades all
measure in the vicinity of .155
+- .005 with the blade tips being pretty consistently on the low end of that
spread.

3. I tried a couple of different woods just for completeness. Same results.
I was also very careful that
the unit didn't move around while I was cutting.

4. I called PC and they transfered my call to a local (90 miles away)
service center. They said that if I couldn't bring it in to them, to mail
it to them and they'd look at it.

5. The biscuits came in a PC box - I going to assume they're PC. They're
marked USA20. They we'er a prt of the Amazon package - 1000 free biscuits
with 557 purchase.

So - I guess it's mail it to them at this point. I'm a bit dissapointed.

jim

"Jim Bailey" wrote in message
m...
I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really smooth -
no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and stable,
or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of
course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together. I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2 joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem -
you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical movemen
t
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a bit.
No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out to
the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and
out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

Gerry - I just did it - they are all around .175. It's almost got to be the
blade or machine - I'm going to go now and pull the cover of and see if the
blade is seated properly, burr free etc.

jim

"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Your blade and biscuits sound okay. Suggest you measure a cut slot. If
that
comes out larger, it's the joiner. If the slot width is same as the blade
tooth, something's being missed here.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:25:46 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Thanks to all of you ! Here's some answers to your questions and where
I'm
at:

1. I don't have a dial indicator available so it's going to be difficult
to
check runout, or if the blade
tips might be offset from one another.

2. I do have dial calipers - the biscuits and the tips of the blades all
measure in the vicinity of .155
+- .005 with the blade tips being pretty consistently on the low end of
that
spread.

3. I tried a couple of different woods just for completeness. Same
results.
I was also very careful that
the unit didn't move around while I was cutting.

4. I called PC and they transfered my call to a local (90 miles away)
service center. They said that if I couldn't bring it in to them, to
mail
it to them and they'd look at it.

5. The biscuits came in a PC box - I going to assume they're PC. They're
marked USA20. They we'er a prt of the Amazon package - 1000 free biscuits
with 557 purchase.

So - I guess it's mail it to them at this point. I'm a bit dissapointed.

jim

"Jim Bailey" wrote in message
m...
I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and
was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good
thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to
biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really
smooth -
no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and
stable,
or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of
course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together.
I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2
joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem -
you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical
movemen
t
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I
thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a
bit.
No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of
water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out
to
the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and
out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be
with
this method ?

jim

Jim Bailey wrote:

Gerry - I just did it - they are all around .175. It's almost got to be the
blade or machine - I'm going to go now and pull the cover of and see if the
blade is seated properly, burr free etc.


Make sure it's flat as well...

Can't help with your problem, but thanks for making me feel better
about just buying an inexpensive biscuit joiner instead of a name brand.

Yea - but I have to admit, it really is smooth in action and motor, well
machined (so far as fit and finish) - it's just a very nice machine - It
just doesn't work right !!

I haven't heard of anyone else here seeing this - hopefully just one that
slipped through QC.

I did go ahead and take the blade off and inspect the best I could. I also
put the FF cutter on it and it cuts big too (although to a lesser degree but
it's hard to tell with a slot that small).

I guess I'll send it to the service center as instructed. How about
returning it through Amazon ? What do you guys think ????

jim


"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
oups.com...
Can't help with your problem, but thanks for making me feel better
about just buying an inexpensive biscuit joiner instead of a name brand.

Agreed. Check both flat across blade twice (at 90 deg angles) with straight
edge, and flat across teeth against flat surface with raking light, both
sides.

Actually, firstly check if the blade is loose or has any wobble felt by hand
(after unplugging, of course).

Second, I'd clamp it open (engaged) and put a block against the edge of the
blade, mark the spot, light behind and rotate by hand. The eye should be able
to pick up anything more than a .004 or so change.

IOW, try to do most checks before you take anything apart, so nothing gets
"temporarily" fixed. Once you know which dimension is off, you can take it
apart to find the exact cause.

GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:43:22 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Gerry - I just did it - they are all around .175. It's almost got to be the
blade or machine - I'm going to go now and pull the cover of and see if the
blade is seated properly, burr free etc.

jim

"GerryG" wrote in message
.. .
Your blade and biscuits sound okay. Suggest you measure a cut slot. If
that
comes out larger, it's the joiner. If the slot width is same as the blade
tooth, something's being missed here.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 22:25:46 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Thanks to all of you ! Here's some answers to your questions and where
I'm
at:

1. I don't have a dial indicator available so it's going to be difficult
to
check runout, or if the blade
tips might be offset from one another.

2. I do have dial calipers - the biscuits and the tips of the blades all
measure in the vicinity of .155
+- .005 with the blade tips being pretty consistently on the low end of
that
spread.

3. I tried a couple of different woods just for completeness. Same
results.
I was also very careful that
the unit didn't move around while I was cutting.

4. I called PC and they transfered my call to a local (90 miles away)
service center. They said that if I couldn't bring it in to them, to
mail
it to them and they'd look at it.

5. The biscuits came in a PC box - I going to assume they're PC. They're
marked USA20. They we'er a prt of the Amazon package - 1000 free biscuits
with 557 purchase.

So - I guess it's mail it to them at this point. I'm a bit dissapointed.

jim

"Jim Bailey" wrote in message
m...
I need somone to set my expectations biscuit joinery.

I just got my dandy new PC557 (and 1000 free biscuits) last night and
was
anxious to fire it up today. After giving the directions a good
thorough
going over, I grabbed some 3/4" x about 15 or 16" and was gong to
biscuit
join their edges - 2 #20's about 12" apart. The tool is really
smooth -
no
jerking or moving but still, you want to hold eveything flat and
stable,
or
I can see where it could try to move around a bit.

Well, dry biscuits in the slots have about a 32nd clearance, which of
course
translates to the same vertical movement when the joint is together.
I'd
hoped for a much more snug fit than that. You can also slide the 2
joined
edges laterally about an inch either way - but that's not a problem -
you're
lining up on your original biscuit marks anyway - but the vertical
movemen
t
bugs me a bit.

After reading all the stuff here about how those biscuits swell, I
thought
maybe with gluing them up, the swelling would stabilize the joint a
bit.
No
such luck - I even got aggravated and soaked a biscuit in a glass of
water
for about 15 minutes - still loose in the slot. I just went back out
to
the
shop (about two hours later) and you can still slide the biscuit in and
out
without problem.

Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be
with
this method ?

jim

Jim,
Many people watch and sort by threads, which depend on the title line. With
all the daily posts, if you keep changing the title line, some responses will
be missed.
GerryG

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 01:25:58 GMT, "Jim Bailey"
wrote:

Yea - but I have to admit, it really is smooth in action and motor, well
machined (so far as fit and finish) - it's just a very nice machine - It
just doesn't work right !!

I haven't heard of anyone else here seeing this - hopefully just one that
slipped through QC.

I did go ahead and take the blade off and inspect the best I could. I also
put the FF cutter on it and it cuts big too (although to a lesser degree but
it's hard to tell with a slot that small).

I guess I'll send it to the service center as instructed. How about
returning it through Amazon ? What do you guys think ????

jim


"Mike in Arkansas" wrote in message
roups.com...
Can't help with your problem, but thanks for making me feel better
about just buying an inexpensive biscuit joiner instead of a name brand.

Point well taken Gerry - shouldn't make people trying to help me chase the
thread all around.

Thanks for all the help.


"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Jim,
Many people watch and sort by threads, which depend on the title line.
With
all the daily posts, if you keep changing the title line, some responses
will
be missed.
GerryG

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:42:59 -0700, Jim Bailey wrote
(in article ) :


Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

I found that to get good vertical alignment you need to put equal amounts of
glue on each side. If one side has it thick and one has it thin, it'll move
unevenly. Clamps can also help even the surfaces if any small misalignment is
unacceptable.
-Bruce

That doesn't really sound right. For one, the glue should always be put in the
slot, and not on the side of the biscuit, as you may have indicated, else it
will start to swell too soon and glue may be scraped off as it's inserted.

Next, the biggest advantage of biscuits is the vertical alignment. You've seen
the numbers for the slot and biscuits sizes. If you need to (or even can)
influence vertical alignment with glue or clamps, something is wrong. Or, are
you talking about differences of .002?
GerryG

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:26:20 -0700, Bruce wrote:

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 12:42:59 -0700, Jim Bailey wrote
(in article ) :


Have I set my expectations too high about how snug the joint would be with
this method ?

jim

I found that to get good vertical alignment you need to put equal amounts of
glue on each side. If one side has it thick and one has it thin, it'll move
unevenly. Clamps can also help even the surfaces if any small misalignment is
unacceptable.
-Bruce

Jim,

I bought the exact same kit you got from Amazon. I'm out of town now so
I cannot go check it closely, but I am absolutely sure it doesn't
create the sloppy slots you describe. In fact it seems to work
precisely in my useage.

If you can return it to Amazon for full credit, I'd do that, then order
a replacement. It will be by far the fastest way to get it handled.

The only "problem" I experienced when I first used mine was
inexperience and I inadvertantly rested the joiner on the table top
instead of the top of the wood and my slots did not line up. I now know
to put the wood on a spacer block or something to make sure its well
clear of any table or vice surfaces when I align the joiner to make the
cut.

Bob

Standard biscuit is 4mm. .1574"

"GerryG" wrote in message
...
Hmmm...maybe a bad run of blades? That's sounds like the most likely
cause.

Used to have the specs on this...no matter.
My DeWalt blade measures 0.157 on a tooth, and a cut slot measures the
same.
From 1/2 dozen biscuits, I'm seeing 0.157-0.160.
GerryG

On Tue, 01 Mar 2005 14:52:18 -0600, Dan Oelke wrote:


I picked up my PC 557 this weekend (should have done it through Amazon,
but didn't plan far enough in advance.... sigh)

I also noticed the same thing about sloppy fit. I was able to align my
board edges (mostly) when I had the clamps put on with very light
pressure, and then finished tightening.

So - now I'm curious - what should the biscuit thickness and slot
thickness be? (I'll get out the dial calipers tonight....)

Dan

Thanks Bob - I'll try them today - I hate the idea of having to ship a new
tool off to the service center. I was extremely carefull about my technique
when testing this. And it acts the same way with the FF cutter installed as
well.

jim

wrote in message
oups.com...
Jim,

I bought the exact same kit you got from Amazon. I'm out of town now so
I cannot go check it closely, but I am absolutely sure it doesn't
create the sloppy slots you describe. In fact it seems to work
precisely in my useage.

If you can return it to Amazon for full credit, I'd do that, then order
a replacement. It will be by far the fastest way to get it handled.

The only "problem" I experienced when I first used mine was
inexperience and I inadvertantly rested the joiner on the table top
instead of the top of the wood and my slots did not line up. I now know
to put the wood on a spacer block or something to make sure its well
clear of any table or vice surfaces when I align the joiner to make the
cut.

Bob

Jim Bailey wrote:

Thanks Bob - I'll try them today - I hate the idea of having to ship a new
tool off to the service center. I was extremely carefull about my technique
when testing this. And it acts the same way with the FF cutter installed as
well.

....

If you can't determine (and easily fix) the problem by cleanup of the
arbor/mount/etc., I'd suggest it probably would be quicker to simply
return it to Amazon as Bob suggests rather than go w/ the service
center.

PITA, but I'd take may chances on a replacement since you'll have
shipping charges either way...

Just got off Amazon's return pages. Within minutes I had an email
confirmation of the new order and that it would be shipped UPS 2 day. And a
link to print a prepaid return label ! All i have to do is get it back to
them within 30 days or they'll charge me for both units.

I'm impressed !

jim

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Jim Bailey wrote:

Thanks Bob - I'll try them today - I hate the idea of having to ship a
new
tool off to the service center. I was extremely carefull about my
technique
when testing this. And it acts the same way with the FF cutter
installed as
well.

...

If you can't determine (and easily fix) the problem by cleanup of the
arbor/mount/etc., I'd suggest it probably would be quicker to simply
return it to Amazon as Bob suggests rather than go w/ the service
center.

PITA, but I'd take may chances on a replacement since you'll have
shipping charges either way...

GerryG wrote:
Okay, just located Chuck Ring's notes, some of which came from Hank Metz, who
taught me about these things years ago, so this should be fairly accurate.
http://www.woodworking.org/WC/GArchi...28ringpj1.html

The slot should be 5/32 or 0.156 wide.
Biscuits are spec'ed at .0.148. (However, I've never seen them that thin.)
The biscuit should swell with water to 0.164, and stay close to that when it
dries.

GerryG

I measured mine last night and did some more joints, and didn't have
the same problems I was having. The slots I measured came out right
at 0.156 to 0.157. The biscuits I forget exactly but I believe they
were 0.148 +/-0.002.

I assume that my problems were operator error on the first couple of
joints I made - not holding the tool or workpiece steady as I made the cut.

I still had some vertical alignment issues last night - but it is more
along the lines of being able to catch the fingernail as you slide
across the joint. I figure that is only a couple of thou difference and
easily taken care of by the sander.

I hadn't used a biscuit joiner until the last couple of days and I am
really liking it. Lets me make no-fastener joints in places I couldn't
before, and is SO much faster than using the doweling jig. Not to
mention a whole lot more forgiving on alignment issues than dowels. I
put some solid banding (2.5" wide) on some plywood last night using it.
I ended up using 16 biscuits and didn't have any major alignment
issues. I couldn't imagine trying to do that with dowels and not having
at least one hole be off just a hair - enough to be a pain in the....


Dan

Jim Bailey wrote:

Just got off Amazon's return pages. Within minutes I had an email
confirmation of the new order and that it would be shipped UPS 2 day. And a
link to print a prepaid return label ! All i have to do is get it back to
them within 30 days or they'll charge me for both units.

I'm impressed !

....Yeah, as long as the automated engine(s) do what you want to do, it
works pretty well...questions out of the ordinary aren't necessarily so
clean, however.

Their interaction system for odd/unusual events is very difficult--they
hide their responders behind anonymous addresses and have only a
web-based engine that removes all context for any response to theirs.
Since it's also not a case of where a single individual will follow up
on the original it often takes a bunch of tries to finally get the
actual issue resolved. Of course, Amazon is far from unique in this w/
online stores--Dell, for example, is a real pita if one has anything
that doesn't fit the normal model.

Not a rant, per se, just an observation having a concurrent issue
pending...

"Jim Bailey" wrote:

Yea - but I have to admit, it really is smooth in action and motor, well
machined (so far as fit and finish) - it's just a very nice machine - It
just doesn't work right !!

I haven't heard of anyone else here seeing this - hopefully just one that
slipped through QC.

I did go ahead and take the blade off and inspect the best I could. I also
put the FF cutter on it and it cuts big too (although to a lesser degree but
it's hard to tell with a slot that small).

I guess I'll send it to the service center as instructed. How about
returning it through Amazon ? What do you guys think ????

jim



Amazon is usually very good about that kind of stuff. I own the PC and have
been very pleased with it.



San Diego Joe

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0700, GerryG wrote
(in article ):

That doesn't really sound right. For one, the glue should always be put in
the
slot, and not on the side of the biscuit, as you may have indicated, else it
will start to swell too soon and glue may be scraped off as it's inserted.

My comment was meant more to imply consistency. Glue in the slot alone
(without spreading up the sides with a brush) usually will leave the biscuit
sides dry. My applications haven't really required excessive neatness and
yes, I do get a fair amount of squeeze out (I use tape to catch it). I
haven't really noticed early expansion problems, but I'm quick to get the
assembly together and rarely use more than eight biscuits at a time.

On the consistency issue I have found it better to drop the fence (PC cutter)
and reference on the top edges of the "display" side. I have found more
alignment error when resting both the board surfaces and cutter on the
table. My reasoning is that if you reference the cutter directly to the
board, you eliminate any possible errors with a cutter-to table-to board
method of referencing.

Either way, there will always be a degree of error...



Next, the biggest advantage of biscuits is the vertical alignment. You've
seen
the numbers for the slot and biscuits sizes. If you need to (or even can)
influence vertical alignment with glue or clamps, something is wrong. Or, are
you talking about differences of .002?

The errors I typically see are 1/32" or so. With care and good material prep
I can get 0.002".

-Bruce

GerryG

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:26:20 -0700, Bruce wrote:



I found that to get good vertical alignment you need to put equal amounts
of
glue on each side. If one side has it thick and one has it thin, it'll move
unevenly. Clamps can also help even the surfaces if any small misalignment
is
unacceptable.
-Bruce

Agreed, Bruce. Every book, guide and tutorial I've seen stresses that you
should use a brush, stick or other implement to spread the glue on the sides
of the slot. It's one of the basics of using the tool. When you said "equal
amounts on each side" I couldn't see how you could do that with a narrow slot,
so assumed you must be talking about the biscuit, but perhaps not.

As to using the fence or the table as a reference, like everything else it
depends on the particular case. For instance, a small, flat board will be
easier with a base reference against the table, and the board itself may not
be large enough to securely set the fence. OTOH, a shelf or carcass with its
larger size may well be not exactly flat against the table, and a fence
reference will often workmuch better.
GerryG

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 19:54:31 -0700, Bruce wrote:

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:44:25 -0700, GerryG wrote
(in article ):

That doesn't really sound right. For one, the glue should always be put in
the
slot, and not on the side of the biscuit, as you may have indicated, else it
will start to swell too soon and glue may be scraped off as it's inserted.

My comment was meant more to imply consistency. Glue in the slot alone
(without spreading up the sides with a brush) usually will leave the biscuit
sides dry. My applications haven't really required excessive neatness and
yes, I do get a fair amount of squeeze out (I use tape to catch it). I
haven't really noticed early expansion problems, but I'm quick to get the
assembly together and rarely use more than eight biscuits at a time.

On the consistency issue I have found it better to drop the fence (PC cutter)
and reference on the top edges of the "display" side. I have found more
alignment error when resting both the board surfaces and cutter on the
table. My reasoning is that if you reference the cutter directly to the
board, you eliminate any possible errors with a cutter-to table-to board
method of referencing.

Either way, there will always be a degree of error...



Next, the biggest advantage of biscuits is the vertical alignment. You've
seen
the numbers for the slot and biscuits sizes. If you need to (or even can)
influence vertical alignment with glue or clamps, something is wrong. Or, are
you talking about differences of .002?

The errors I typically see are 1/32" or so. With care and good material prep
I can get 0.002".

-Bruce

GerryG

On Tue, 1 Mar 2005 19:26:20 -0700, Bruce wrote:



I found that to get good vertical alignment you need to put equal amounts
of
glue on each side. If one side has it thick and one has it thin, it'll move
unevenly. Clamps can also help even the surfaces if any small misalignment
is
unacceptable.
-Bruce

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:47:08 -0700, GerryG wrote
(in article ):

Agreed, Bruce. Every book, guide and tutorial I've seen stresses that you
should use a brush, stick or other implement to spread the glue on the sides
of the slot. It's one of the basics of using the tool. When you said "equal
amounts on each side" I couldn't see how you could do that with a narrow
slot,
so assumed you must be talking about the biscuit, but perhaps not.

Yep, the biscuit. My procedure is to squirt a daub of glue in the slot,
spread it around with an acid (flux) brush, then brush on a thin layer of
glue to the sides of the biscuit. The error can come (in the extreme case) by
not spreading the glue in the slot and only placing glue on one side of the
biscuit.


As to using the fence or the table as a reference, like everything else it
depends on the particular case. For instance, a small, flat board will be
easier with a base reference against the table, and the board itself may not
be large enough to securely set the fence. OTOH, a shelf or carcass with its
larger size may well be not exactly flat against the table, and a fence
reference will often workmuch better.

I think the biggest source of accumulated error when referencing off the
table is when slotting warped stock.
-Bruce

GerryG

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 07:27:50 -0700, Bruce wrote:

On Wed, 2 Mar 2005 21:47:08 -0700, GerryG wrote
(in article ):

Agreed, Bruce. Every book, guide and tutorial I've seen stresses that you
should use a brush, stick or other implement to spread the glue on the sides
of the slot. It's one of the basics of using the tool. When you said "equal
amounts on each side" I couldn't see how you could do that with a narrow
slot,
so assumed you must be talking about the biscuit, but perhaps not.

Yep, the biscuit. My procedure is to squirt a daub of glue in the slot,
spread it around with an acid (flux) brush, then brush on a thin layer of
glue to the sides of the biscuit. The error can come (in the extreme case) by
not spreading the glue in the slot and only placing glue on one side of the
biscuit.

When I first started with biscuits, I cut open some joints to see just how
well it was bonded, under different conditions. It's not difficult (or
expensive) to quickly try a dozen variations on a single piece of scrap. I
tried different amounts of glue and how well it was spread. Found the right
amount of glue and such gives a solid joint with little squeeze-out. As
expected, found MDF, particle board and such absorbs more glue. You either
apply a bit more or, like when gluing end grain, put on a thin coat then add
more a few minutes later. Now, the reason for expounding on this: if you add
glue to the biscuit, you're then very limited on time, and I don't see any
advantage. I build carcasses with shelves and such that may need several dozen
biscuits applied at once. With clamps and all laid in position, I take a bag
of biscuits and a small rubber mallet. Each biscuit is pushed in, then 2
hammer taps, then the next. It makes for very neat and quick construction.

As to using the fence or the table as a reference, like everything else it
depends on the particular case. For instance, a small, flat board will be
easier with a base reference against the table, and the board itself may not
be large enough to securely set the fence. OTOH, a shelf or carcass with its
larger size may well be not exactly flat against the table, and a fence
reference will often workmuch better.

I think the biggest source of accumulated error when referencing off the
table is when slotting warped stock.
My point was that a sizeable sheet may be well flat enough for the project,
but still have enough gap to the table to produce an error. It's a matter of
paying close attention to the details. I've seen as many errors with the
fence, where the torque from starting the motor jars your hold on the fence
against the piece. Seen many people starting to plunge before starting the
joiner which makes this easy to happen.
GerryG
-Bruce

GerryG

On Wed, 02 Mar 2005 02:44:25 GMT, GerryG wrote:

That doesn't really sound right. For one, the glue should always be put in the
slot, and not on the side of the biscuit, as you may have indicated, else it
will start to swell too soon and glue may be scraped off as it's inserted.

I *always* glue both the slot and the biscuit. occasionally I'll have
to tap a biscuit into place.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2005 08:39:16 -0700, GerryG wrote
(in article ):


When I first started with biscuits, I cut open some joints to see just how
well it was bonded, under different conditions. It's not difficult (or
expensive) to quickly try a dozen variations on a single piece of scrap. I
tried different amounts of glue and how well it was spread. Found the right
amount of glue and such gives a solid joint with little squeeze-out. As
expected, found MDF, particle board and such absorbs more glue. You either
apply a bit more or, like when gluing end grain, put on a thin coat then add
more a few minutes later. Now, the reason for expounding on this: if you add
glue to the biscuit, you're then very limited on time, and I don't see any
advantage. I build carcasses with shelves and such that may need several
dozen
biscuits applied at once. With clamps and all laid in position, I take a bag
of biscuits and a small rubber mallet. Each biscuit is pushed in, then 2
hammer taps, then the next. It makes for very neat and quick construction.

Gerry,
Have you ever tried one of those "biscuit" glue applicators? I've seen
TheNorm use one and they seem to speed application. I actually have a cheap
one but given the pain it would be to clean and my infrequent use of biscuits
I've never tried it.

In your tests, have you ever dissected an end-grain to end-grain joint?
Whenever I had to do this I've just used a half lap, figured biscuits would
be too weak.

-Bruce

"Bruce" wrote in message
Gerry,
Have you ever tried one of those "biscuit" glue applicators? I've seen
TheNorm use one and they seem to speed application. I actually have a
cheap
one but given the pain it would be to clean and my infrequent use of
biscuits
I've never tried it.

I'll save you a lot of time, Bruce. I tried it and it is a PITA and does
not spread the glue all that well. Use an acid brush and be done with it.
--
Ed
http://pages.cthome.net/edhome/