"Silvan" wrote in message
...

That ain't woodworking, Nahmie, that just ain't woodworking. It's
manufacturing.

Being relatively new to woodworking, 3 years now officially, I would have to
pay homage to Norm. He did inspire me to start woodworking. Until then I
was putting wood together with no clue. Or glue. ;-)

He showed me the way. I took it from there. I thank Norm.

I respectfully somewhat disagree with you on your above statement for some
of his creations. Some of them *are* indeed woodworking. Some are more
along the manufacturing lines. But you gotta admit, he has some cool
gadgets!

I think the basis of his show is to familiarize the audience with what kind
of techniques and machinary are out there. That's my take anyway. I like
some of the stuff he makes and some I don't. Not being the real patient
type, I prefer simple stuff.

Machine over hand tools?
Whenever the opportunity presents itself. But hey, that's just my style.
There are many others and to each there own.
SH

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
...
George wrote:
Nah, then we'd all end up as tool collectors with well-prepared shops and
SWMBO wondering when in H*LL we're going to get those new shelves she
wanted
for the bedroom done....


As I've said to St. Soozan on more than one occasion,

"Out of work disease ridden junkie spouse abusing pervert?

or,

Guy who buys tools and has an extra spiffy shop?

You pick honey. I'll be in the shop."

UA100

Hell, there's gotta be more choices than that. 8-)

Bob

"Silvan" wrote in message
...
Flipping channels for SWMBO, came across a woodworking show on PBS. Ah,
there's Nahmie.

I was surprised he used his TS and dado stack for all the tenons, and the
T&G rails and stiles. Hell, why didn't he just whip out his rail and
stile
set for his 5 HP shaper? He pulled out everything else.

Count me a Royd I reckon. I do use power stuff, and there are a few more
power flummies I'd like to acquire, but I REALLY can't see having that
much
gadgetry in my shop. I'll bet he spent two full hours off camera jiggling
the settings on all those machines and horking up a huge pile of test
scraps so he could awe his audience by powering noisily through a few feet
of wood with banshee precision.

Where's your sense of creativity Nahmie? And using a utility knife to do
a
crap job of rounding the points on the tenons to make them fit in routahed
round holes does not quality. That's what chisels are for, Nahmie.
Chisels. You ever use a chisel? Not since about 1985 I guess.

I used to watch Nahmie and Roy when I was in high school or suchabouts.
Haven't watched either one of them in 20 years. Not planning to bother
finding Roy, but I really ought to make a point to watch one episode for
old time's sake to purify my spirit after sitting through that. Crikey,
Nahmie. Even my ten year old son was shouting "Oh come ON man!" at the
TV.

That ain't woodworking, Nahmie, that just ain't woodworking. It's
manufacturing.

This craftsman vs. artiste-type thread breaks out every so often, and it
will never go away. A hundred years from now it'll be laser-guided saws vs.
robot-control machines that accept a log at one end and spew out a cabriole
leg from the other. The same arg...er, discussion occurs in amateur
astronomy today, involving the latest computer-aligned and guided telescopes
vs. manual operation and star-hopping to find things. My SIL paid more than
$3,000 for a sewing machine and takes home metal from the state fair every
year. She doesn't own a thimble.
I gotta think that other hobbies are the same--turn-it-on-and-listen in ham
radio vs. build-it yourself, gentleman racers vs grease monkeys, etc.
To me, a tool is a tool, whether it's tailed or not. The craftsmanship is
all in the using.
YMMV, and probably does.

Bob

"Bob Schmall" wrote in message news:8wgCd.168473

This craftsman vs. artiste-type thread breaks out every so often, and it
will never go away. A hundred years from now it'll be laser-guided saws
vs.
robot-control machines that accept a log at one end and spew out a
cabriole
leg from the other.

I think it comes down to not mattering how something is made as long as it's
useful, gets compliments from the people we know and costs less than buying
one. (assuming that one works for free when woodworking)

On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 14:45:57 -0500, Silvan
wrote:


(The following is freely snipped)

Flipping channels for SWMBO, came across a woodworking show on PBS. Ah,
there's Nahmie.

I was surprised he used his TS and dado stack for all the tenons, and the
T&G rails and stiles. Hell, why didn't he just whip out his rail and stile
set for his 5 HP shaper? He pulled out everything else.

That ain't woodworking, Nahmie, that just ain't woodworking. It's
manufacturing.


I've always enjoyed watching Norm.

One of the reasons is that his growth and development has paralleled
my own.

Norm started out as a carpenter and then gravitated towards doing the
fussier stuff. He was already pretty good at trim work when I first
started watching him - back in the days of Bob.

The first natural step away from doing rough and finish carpentry is
towards built-ins. You can spend a whole career on built-in work,
learning more about design and construction as you go.

There is a crossover phase between building built-ins like a carpenter
and starting to build them more like a furniture maker. Your design
sense gets better, particularly if you are fortunate enough to work
with good designers and architects. Your work eventually becomes less
carpenterish.

Some fellas, and I believe Norm to be one of them, keep on following
this path until it leads them to freestanding work, or what might
properly be called furniture.

When I started out as a carpenter, which was pretty much the same time
as Norm did, carpenters still made a lot of built-in work. The
kitchens were often done onsite and things like bookcases, fireplace
surrounds, wainscot and window seats were done there too. The joinery
was what you could do with the tools available to you in the field.
You wanted more tools so that you could rip a nicer line than you
could with the circular saw, make a nicer door than a slab and batten,
cobble up a better drawer than a butted glue and nail.

Most of the guys that I have known, who were any good at carpentry,
wanted those tools so that they could do nicer work in an efficient
enough fashion to satisfy themselves and the requirements of the
marketplace. You wanted to follow your star but you had to deal with
that old Nemesis - The Marketplace.

Even at the level of built-ins there is a bit of snobbery involved.
The guys who grew up in the shop look down on the converted
carpenters, even though you could probably follow their lineage back
to a carpenter somewheres in the woodpile.

Breaking into freestanding work is another major leap. On a skill
level, you are going to have to make your own mistakes and learn from
them the best you can. On the business level - that is a tough
market, with many niche markets, where the margins are tight and the
money is dumbed down by the number of people who are willing to do it
on a subsistence level - there's your artist, used to living in a
culture that does not reward the artist, so much as the sellers and
collectors of art. Most places that show and sell mark up one hundred
percent, getting more than you did for creating the piece.

I'll bet Norm feels fortunate to have found a path that lets him grow
and explore. I've not seen many things that he has designed himself -
but he's still a young fella and that may come along.

Certainly he has to show the wares of his Patron, and this is no
different from those who have created under the banner of patrons of
the arts since time out of mind. Our patrons these days are corporate
and Delta is the current Medici of American WoodDorking - Gosh Bless
Them.

Norm is slowly knocking the carpenter out of himself. It's fun to
watch him do it.

Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy
to carry the man's tools.



tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)

snip

Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy
to carry the man's tools.

snip to save space

Well said Tom - I couldn't agree more.

Lou

thanks, Tom, excellent post...as a carpenter lurching and stumbling down
that same path I can relate, especially to the part of wanting whatever
tool/skill/knowledge will produce a better result in (hopefully)less
time and with more fun...

david


Tom Watson wrote:
On Sat, 01 Jan 2005 14:45:57 -0500, Silvan
wrote:


(The following is freely snipped)


Flipping channels for SWMBO, came across a woodworking show on PBS. Ah,
there's Nahmie.

I was surprised he used his TS and dado stack for all the tenons, and the
T&G rails and stiles. Hell, why didn't he just whip out his rail and stile
set for his 5 HP shaper? He pulled out everything else.


That ain't woodworking, Nahmie, that just ain't woodworking. It's
manufacturing.



I've always enjoyed watching Norm.

One of the reasons is that his growth and development has paralleled
my own.

Norm started out as a carpenter and then gravitated towards doing the
fussier stuff. He was already pretty good at trim work when I first
started watching him - back in the days of Bob.

The first natural step away from doing rough and finish carpentry is
towards built-ins. You can spend a whole career on built-in work,
learning more about design and construction as you go.

There is a crossover phase between building built-ins like a carpenter
and starting to build them more like a furniture maker. Your design
sense gets better, particularly if you are fortunate enough to work
with good designers and architects. Your work eventually becomes less
carpenterish.

Some fellas, and I believe Norm to be one of them, keep on following
this path until it leads them to freestanding work, or what might
properly be called furniture.

When I started out as a carpenter, which was pretty much the same time
as Norm did, carpenters still made a lot of built-in work. The
kitchens were often done onsite and things like bookcases, fireplace
surrounds, wainscot and window seats were done there too. The joinery
was what you could do with the tools available to you in the field.
You wanted more tools so that you could rip a nicer line than you
could with the circular saw, make a nicer door than a slab and batten,
cobble up a better drawer than a butted glue and nail.

Most of the guys that I have known, who were any good at carpentry,
wanted those tools so that they could do nicer work in an efficient
enough fashion to satisfy themselves and the requirements of the
marketplace. You wanted to follow your star but you had to deal with
that old Nemesis - The Marketplace.

Even at the level of built-ins there is a bit of snobbery involved.
The guys who grew up in the shop look down on the converted
carpenters, even though you could probably follow their lineage back
to a carpenter somewheres in the woodpile.

Breaking into freestanding work is another major leap. On a skill
level, you are going to have to make your own mistakes and learn from
them the best you can. On the business level - that is a tough
market, with many niche markets, where the margins are tight and the
money is dumbed down by the number of people who are willing to do it
on a subsistence level - there's your artist, used to living in a
culture that does not reward the artist, so much as the sellers and
collectors of art. Most places that show and sell mark up one hundred
percent, getting more than you did for creating the piece.

I'll bet Norm feels fortunate to have found a path that lets him grow
and explore. I've not seen many things that he has designed himself -
but he's still a young fella and that may come along.

Certainly he has to show the wares of his Patron, and this is no
different from those who have created under the banner of patrons of
the arts since time out of mind. Our patrons these days are corporate
and Delta is the current Medici of American WoodDorking - Gosh Bless
Them.

Norm is slowly knocking the carpenter out of himself. It's fun to
watch him do it.

Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy
to carry the man's tools.



tjwatson1ATcomcastDOTnet (real email)
http://home.comcast.net/~tjwatson1 (webpage)

Right on, Tom.

And, I think this business about all his "powertools" is mostly baloney.
Except for the wide belt sander (lathe, production pocket hold machine), I'd
venture to guess that most of the experienced woodworkers probably come
close to his shop inventory. As a matter of fact as production shops go,
he's probably towards the low end of the scale.

I really think where he has most of the rest of us beat is a large dedicated
shop building.

Just hazarding a WAG (wild ass guess), I'd think that his shop could be
reproduced for $10,000, certainly less than $20,000. (I don't know how much
that sander costs).

Cripes, I know guys that have spent (much) more than that on their boats,
just to catch fish that they turn around and throw back.

James..
"D. J. Dorn" wrote in message
...
I agree. Like him or not, he is credited with a vast amount of people
getting into woodworking such as myself. Watching the show, I would say, I
could do that, I just need a few tools. Now with a complete shop, I am
able to do the methods he has demonstrated for so many years and I'm having
a ball doing it and much of my home is filled with practical things I've
made and am proud of..

I've watched David Marks and frankly, I'd rather watch Norm - I'm not into
the artsy stuff and he (Norm) builds practical things that are within the
reach of an intermediate woodworker. As to the power tools, I really
don't understand the fuss. If a person wants to use hand tools and that
is their thing - go for it. The truth is however, even the Shakers were
very progressive people and used tools that were the latest available in
order to be more efficient. It was a Shaker sister that invented the
round saw blade and they were among the first to have cars and use powered
lathes (steam). If they were prevelant today, I'll bet they'd have a
complete shop, using Unisaws, dado stacks and dovetail jigs. Don't you
think the pioneers would have used a Homelight if they'd have had one?
I'll admit that I've backed off the brad nailer on anything that might
show but I love pocket hole joinery - fast, efficient & strong. Purists
can do what they like but I don't understand the need to bash Norm or
anyone else that uses power. I agree on the jealousy thing.

Don

wrote in message
oups.com...
Oh, please, lay off Norm. The guy never said he was an artiste, as
some who critique his show might view themselves, and has never held
himself out as anything but a master carpenter, which I believe he
certainly is. He has started many on the path to making stuff out of
wood, and for that alone he deserves credit. And hey, if they offered
anyone on the wreck the job as host of NYW there would be a small riot
as folks lined up to get the gig. Do I do things differently than Norm
does, sure, and there's likely four more ways to get any job done. Do
you need a 2hp 220v oscillating belt sander to taper a table leg, hell
no, but he's got one available so why not use it. Norm never said you
have to have one, or a wide belt sander, or a lathe duplicator, or a
$65 glue bottle from Lamello, etc. My uneducated guesstimate is that
95% of the operations in any given episode involve a TS, BS, jointer,
planer, drill press or router table, and anyone who is even close to
being a serious hobbyist has those tools available to him or her at
various price points. And it is my view if it were not for Norm and
the interest in the craft he generated over the last 20 years or so by
NYW and TOH (i.e., hobbyist demand/volume of sales) those tools would
not be available in the range or at the price points that make sense to
a lot of folks on a budget. Nuff said.

Mutt

I gotta believe people that beat up on him for using so many different
advanced power tools are the same people that beat up on atheletes for
being successful and businessmen for making money. Gotta be a
jealously thing.

I don't think that's it. A lot of people here have swell power tools.
Unlike Norm, they might have had to pay actual cash money for theirs but I
still don't believe jealousy is the issue. I think what it usually boils
down to (including the OP in this thread) is people slamming Norm for doing
things differently from the way they would do them.
Norm gets a little nailgun happy sometimes (OK, a lot of the time), and
people gang up on him because they prefer glue and clamps only. Norm slaps
some dark stain on a newly crafted piece of cherry furniture because maybe
he likes the color or it matches all the other Queen Anne furniture in his
house, and people climb all over him as if he has violated one of the 10
Commandments.
What so many people fail to recognize is that NYW is all about demonstrating
different (most often power-assisted) ways of achieving similar outcomes.
So one week you might see Norm making mortices and tenons with his dedicated
morticing machine and a table saw and another week he may use a bit and
brace and some chisels. And the more different techniques he demonstrates
to perform the same type of operation, the more likely he is to deviate from
the way any one guy "always does it."

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

But David Marks can manage to make much more complicated projects
using largely hand tools and still does them in one show. And he
takes weeks to actually make anything.

For a long time all I knew about David Marks was what I read here. I was
under the impression that when it came to neanders, DJM was second only to
Roy Underhill. Then my cable system added DIY network to its On-Demand
service. I finally got to watch one or two of Marks' shows and was amazed
to see him using some power tools Norm could only dream about. (For
example, I've never seen Norm make use of a multi-router like Marks uses.)
Unfortunately, I have only had the chance to see a few Marks episodes so I
don't know if uses mortice & loose tenon joinery for every project or just
happened to use the same method for the ones I caught. From the shows I
have seen, Marks also seems to presume that the viewer has a certain level
of woodworking knowledge, whereas Norm seems to explain everything as if
even the basics are new to most of the audience.
Now don't get me wrong. I am a huge admirer of David Marks and his
craftsmanship. I think even Norm himself would concede that David is the
more accomplished woodworker (although I might opt for Norm to build me a
house). However, the notion that David is all about spokeshaves and rasps
and Norm would be helpless if there had never been a Mr. Porter and a Mr.
Cable is an erroneous one.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

My primary objection to what Norm does is the tired old antiques that he is
always trying to duplicate. Talk about an OLD Yankee cliche. Surround
yourself with a luxurious shop with heated floors, and what do you create??
Modern replicas of moldy, old furniture from a hundred years ago or so.

I would be much more impressed with discussions of new designs. And how to
make things for the shop of a modern house. I remember a computer desk that
he made using all the conventional antique criteria. What about a discussion
of ergonomics and trying to preven overuse injuries?

There are a thousand and one applications of woodworking knowledge in the
modern world. But at old Nahm's shop, he is anywhere from 200 - 40 years in
the past.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 18:40:08 GMT, "Bob Schmall"
wrote:


"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
.. .
George wrote:
Nah, then we'd all end up as tool collectors with well-prepared shops and
SWMBO wondering when in H*LL we're going to get those new shelves she
wanted
for the bedroom done....


As I've said to St. Soozan on more than one occasion,

"Out of work disease ridden junkie spouse abusing pervert?

or,

Guy who buys tools and has an extra spiffy shop?

You pick honey. I'll be in the shop."

UA100

Hell, there's gotta be more choices than that. 8-)

Bob

Yeah, but you don't have to tell _her_ that.

--RC

"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:11:41 -0500, Tom Watson
wrote:



Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy
to carry the man's tools.

To carry Norm's tools you'd have to be as strong as two oxen.

--RC


"Sometimes history doesn't repeat itself. It just yells
'can't you remember anything I've told you?' and lets
fly with a club.
-- John W. Cambell Jr.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 15:11:41 -0500, Tom Watson wrote:


Most of the guys who bitch about Norm here on the Wreck aren't worthy
to carry the man's tools.


At least you used the plural.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:42:48 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:

My primary objection to what Norm does is the tired old antiques that he is
always trying to duplicate. Talk about an OLD Yankee cliche.

Well, you're welcome to your opinion, but I LIKE those tired old
antiques. And judging by both the genuine antique market and the repro
market, so do a lot of people.

Although David Marks is okay (he has a long, long way to go to be as
smooth and have the presence Norm does), I don't care for 90% of the
stuff he makes. Too artsy fartsy or "modern" for my tastes.

But in neither case does that make Norm or David wrong or eligible for
our criticism. The styles are different. Period.

Surround yourself with a luxurious shop with heated floors, and what do
you create?? Modern replicas of moldy, old furniture from a hundred years
ago or so.

Or you could say, "move to California and fill a shop with 12 or 16"
jointers, behemoth band saws, and thousands of board feet of mahogany,
wenge, bubinga, and other exotics and what do you create? Modern crap
(albeit well made crap) worthy of the new owners of the house in
Beetlejuice, which will be long and gratefully forgotten a hundred
years or so from now."

I would be much more impressed with discussions of new designs. And how to
make things for the shop of a modern house. I remember a computer desk that
he made using all the conventional antique criteria. What about a discussion
of ergonomics and trying to preven overuse injuries?

There are a thousand and one applications of woodworking knowledge in the
modern world. But at old Nahm's shop, he is anywhere from 200 - 40 years in
the past.

Again, that presumes that old, venerated, tried and true designs are
bad (your opinion) and "modern" designs are good (also your opinion).
I'm unmoved by your choices. But they are your choices. So watch Norm
or not, but leave his choices alone because they're just fine by me.
Go watch David.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

George wrote:
My Susan used to remind me that in any divorce action, she'd take the tools,
and I would get the kids. Lost a bit of its effectiveness now that two of
the three are out on their own.



At a party I once asked a friend, "Have you met my first
wife Susan". She (Susan) was not amused.

UA100

J&KCopeland wrote:
Just hazarding a WAG (wild ass guess), I'd think that his shop could be
reproduced for $10,000, certainly less than $20,000. (I don't know how much
that sander costs).

And if you don't mind giving up all your Saturdays for a
couple/few years you can cut the $10,000 back by
25-50% (Your Mileage May Vary). Of course you
have to give up all your Saturdays for a couple/few
years.

Cripes, I know guys that have spent (much) more than that on their boats,
just to catch fish that they turn around and throw back.

That was my argument for getting the zero-turn radius mower.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to
have some fun while I'm doing it...

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message

As I've said to St. Soozan on more than one occasion,

"Out of work disease ridden junkie spouse abusing pervert?

or,

Guy who buys tools and has an extra spiffy shop?

You pick honey. I'll be in the shop."

UA100

Same concept as what I say to my wife.

"Honey, I *could* have the bass boat, or the giant RV, or the golf
addiction, or the sports car, or the plasma TV and the NFL season pass, and
spend what was left on beer and cigarettes, OR I could just go and buy lots
of woodworking toys.. er, tools, and save you the aggravation of having to
wonder where I was, or yell at me to get off my lazy ass and find a useful
hobby."

Jon E
- saves thousands, but not by switching my car insurance

Bob Schmall wrote:

That ain't woodworking, Nahmie, that just ain't woodworking. It's
manufacturing.

This craftsman vs. artiste-type thread breaks out every so often, and it
will never go away. A hundred years from now it'll be laser-guided saws

Since this whole thread seems to have turned the wrath of so many against
me, I thought I would expand on that last point a bit. I don't work in
manufacturing, but I've spent more than my fair share of time in furniture
factories. They have big machines, lots of gadgets, and a different
station for everything, but the end result is soulless and uninspired at
best. That's exactly the impression I got watching Nahmie's show. It was
like watching one of the factory guys showing me how they make stacks of
identical futons. Sure, it's wood. Sure, the parts fit together. Where's
the soul? The spirit of the piece? The imagination?

I guess I'm an artiste type, as you surmise, which is hardly surprising
considering my other hobbies include photography, painting (on canvas),
drawing, ornamental gardening and music. To each his own. Anybody who
enjoys Nahmie is more than welcome to watch and emulate him all day long.
You can have as many routahs and oscillating reciprocating double
articulated hoosalflootchies as you have outlets and money for for all I
care. For my own part, I will keep doing what I'm doing, and I will make a
point just to leave the stupid idiot light off for another 20 years.

--
Michael McIntyre ---- Silvan
Linux fanatic, and certified Geek; registered Linux user #243621
http://www.geocities.com/Paris/Rue/5407/
http://rosegarden.sourceforge.net/tutorial/

"Unisaw A100" wrote in message
At a party I once asked a friend, "Have you met my first
wife Susan". She (Susan) was not amused.

Hah! Sounds like one of those people who like to poke the animal with the
big teeth just to see what type of reaction they get.

Tom Watson writes:

There is a crossover phase between building built-ins like a carpenter
and starting to build them more like a furniture maker.

One of Jim Tolpin's books mentions that the difference between
cabinets and furniture is that a cabinet is attatched to a wall,
and furniture is not. That means the joints are stressed
differently, and have to be designed differently.

Brian Henderson wrote in
:

snip

But David Marks can manage to make much more complicated projects
using largely hand tools and still does them in one show. And he
takes weeks to actually make anything.

Ah, the power of television editting.

The David Marks shows are shot 1 day per project. Production assistants,
many of whom are members of the Sonoma County Woodworkers, do a lot of the
grunt work to get the prototypes and pieces ready to shoot.

Television production is _not_ an inexpensive business. Neither can the
show be allowed to unduly tie up the Marks' shop. He still has a
woodworking business to run.

And he does make beautiful projects.

Patriarch

In article ,
Unisaw A100 writes:
J&KCopeland wrote:
Just hazarding a WAG (wild ass guess), I'd think that his shop could be
reproduced for $10,000, certainly less than $20,000. (I don't know how much
that sander costs).

Akshully, the sander most likely costs as much as the rest of his
shop equipment combined. I don't really lust after any of Norm's
tools - I even have some which I feel are better. The exception is
that TimeSaver. Jeezus, but that's one sweet machine; takes up as
much room as a car, and costs about the same.

Cripes, I know guys that have spent (much) more than that on their boats,
just to catch fish that they turn around and throw back.

That was my argument for getting the zero-turn radius mower.

Really? I always pegged you as more of a sheep guy, Keeter.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to

Gawd, now we know you're a sicko!

--
Jeff Thunder, hater of lawn mowing
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu

Akshully, the sander most likely costs as much as the rest of his
shop equipment combined. I don't really lust after any of Norm's
tools - I even have some which I feel are better. The exception is
that TimeSaver. Jeezus, but that's one sweet machine; takes up as
much room as a car, and costs about the same.

And it is the one tool in the shop which they have specifically mentioned is
a loaner.

Lee


--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

Jeffrey Thunder wrote:
Really? I always pegged you as more of a sheep guy, Keeter.

I tried that. The neighbors look at you funny when you're
riding a sheep.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to

Gawd, now we know you're a sicko!

Luuuuke, feel the force of the dark side.

UA100

"Silvan" wrote in message
...

That's exactly the impression I got watching Nahmie's show. It was
like watching one of the factory guys showing me how they make stacks of
identical futons. Sure, it's wood. Sure, the parts fit together.
Where's
the soul? The spirit of the piece? The imagination?


Wow! If you're trying to breathe life (anemos) into a FUGLY Marks lamp,
what makes you think that a wide-belt sander has no soul (anima)?

In article ,
Unisaw A100 writes:
Jeffrey Thunder wrote:
Really? I always pegged you as more of a sheep guy, Keeter.

I tried that. The neighbors look at you funny when you're
riding a sheep.

That's cuz you picked the ugly one.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to

Gawd, now we know you're a sicko!

Luuuuke, feel the force of the dark side.

Mowing sucks; that's why Al Gore invented asphalt.

OBWW: does painting MDF trim count as woodworking? sigh

--
Jeff Thunder
Dept. of Mathematical Sciences
Northern Illinois Univ.
jthunder at math dot niu dot edu

"Jeffrey Thunder" wrote in message
...

OBWW: does painting MDF trim count as woodworking? sigh

It depends. Did you mitre the corners? ;-)
SH

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:18:55 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:

I don't think that's it. A lot of people here have swell power tools.
Unlike Norm, they might have had to pay actual cash money for theirs but I
still don't believe jealousy is the issue. I think what it usually boils
down to (including the OP in this thread) is people slamming Norm for doing
things differently from the way they would do them.

No, that's not it either.

See, the problem as I see it, and I do like Norm and have a lot of
respect for him, but he's presenting the extreme of one point of view
to the newbie woodworker crowd. He's giving the view that you need a
shop full of tools to do even the most basic woodworking tasks to
people who largely don't know any better. If all I had to go by was
Norm back when I started woodworking, I'd have never gotten started
because I'd never have been able to afford the tool obsession.

I'm certainly not jealous of his tools, I couldn't care less. What
bugs me is his complete and absolute reliance on every tool in his
shop, even when the job could and probably should be done faster,
easier and cheaper another way. It's pretty bad when even Steve
Thomas was making fun of Norm and his tools.

Norm gets a little nailgun happy sometimes (OK, a lot of the time), and
people gang up on him because they prefer glue and clamps only. Norm slaps
some dark stain on a newly crafted piece of cherry furniture because maybe
he likes the color or it matches all the other Queen Anne furniture in his
house, and people climb all over him as if he has violated one of the 10
Commandments.

Personally, I don't care if Norm uses his nailgun or a $20k
Clamp-o-matic. It's irrelevant. What does matter is that he lets
people know that there is an option, something he doesn't do. He's
not demonstrating technique, he's taking the easy way out and showing
off his sponsor's products. I'm sure that's where he makes the
majority of his money, PBS can't pay much, but we're there to watch
him teach woodworking, not the Delta or Porter Cable Home Shopping
Channel.

What so many people fail to recognize is that NYW is all about demonstrating
different (most often power-assisted) ways of achieving similar outcomes.

But it isn't. It's about demonstrating one $1000 machine after
another doing things that could also be done with a hand scraper or a
chisel

So one week you might see Norm making mortices and tenons with his dedicated
morticing machine and a table saw and another week he may use a bit and
brace and some chisels. And the more different techniques he demonstrates
to perform the same type of operation, the more likely he is to deviate from
the way any one guy "always does it."

That would be nice. Even if he just MENTIONS it once in a while, I'd
be happier. No matter how many people he's introduced to woodworking,
I'd be curious to know how many he's scared away because he only shows
what you can do in a $20k shop and very, very few people can afford
anything like that starting out. If they could, we wouldn't get all
the posts here about cheap table saws, would we?

Norm certainly has a place in the woodworking pantheon, but he's
really not a good representative of how woodworking should be done for
the beginner and unfortuantely, that's the role he's largely been
given.

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:42:48 -0500, "Lee Michaels"
wrote:

My primary objection to what Norm does is the tired old antiques that he is
always trying to duplicate. Talk about an OLD Yankee cliche. Surround
yourself with a luxurious shop with heated floors, and what do you create??
Modern replicas of moldy, old furniture from a hundred years ago or so.

Nothing wrong with that really. What I hate is that he takes
expensive antique wood and shoots it full of holes, pretty much
ruining the wood and the furniture.

Come on, that wood is in VERY short supply, don't waste it!

On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:39:51 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:

For a long time all I knew about David Marks was what I read here. I was
under the impression that when it came to neanders, DJM was second only to
Roy Underhill. Then my cable system added DIY network to its On-Demand
service. I finally got to watch one or two of Marks' shows and was amazed
to see him using some power tools Norm could only dream about. (For
example, I've never seen Norm make use of a multi-router like Marks uses.)

Nobody ever said otherwise. In fact, people have talked a lot about
his multi-router and his aircraft carrier jointer.

I think the point here is that Marks uses power tools when it's
necessary and he often shows alternatives to using them. Norm uses
power tools because they're there and if they weren't there, Norm
really wouldn't know what to do with himself.

On Tue, 04 Jan 2005 05:05:14 GMT, Patriarch
wrote:

Television production is _not_ an inexpensive business. Neither can the
show be allowed to unduly tie up the Marks' shop. He still has a
woodworking business to run.

There are plenty of shows where he'll say "we put this aside for a
week" or whatever, particularly when working on different finishes.
You know, the few he doesn't use tung oil on.

And he does make beautiful projects.

Indeed he does and he makes his living doing it. Norm makes good
stuff too. It isn't the skill or the knowledge of the woodworker,
it's how the knowledge is presented.

But they are there - I don't see a reason to use handtools simply for the
sake of saying "Look at me, I use hand tools". I'm in this hobby because I
like to build things. The pioneers would have used a homelight if they'd
have had them and the Shakers built one of the first machines available
doing tongue and groove assembly without having to do it all by hand. They
were also the first to use steam power for lathes and the inventors of the
round saw blade.

If you want to use hand tools because your hobby is old world craftsmanship,
fine. I simply don't understand the need to bash those that prefer to use
more efficiency to save time. If it took me eight months to build a table,
I'd find a different hobby. Pocket hole jigs, tablesaws, jointers and
bandsaws were made to be used.

Don

"Brian Henderson" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 3 Jan 2005 17:39:51 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:

For a long time all I knew about David Marks was what I read here. I was
under the impression that when it came to neanders, DJM was second only to
Roy Underhill. Then my cable system added DIY network to its On-Demand
service. I finally got to watch one or two of Marks' shows and was amazed
to see him using some power tools Norm could only dream about. (For
example, I've never seen Norm make use of a multi-router like Marks uses.)

Nobody ever said otherwise. In fact, people have talked a lot about
his multi-router and his aircraft carrier jointer.

I think the point here is that Marks uses power tools when it's
necessary and he often shows alternatives to using them. Norm uses
power tools because they're there and if they weren't there, Norm
really wouldn't know what to do with himself.

Personally, I don't care if Norm uses his nailgun or a $20k
Clamp-o-matic. It's irrelevant. What does matter is that he lets
people know that there is an option, something he doesn't do. He's
not demonstrating technique, he's taking the easy way out and showing
off his sponsor's products. I'm sure that's where he makes the
majority of his money, PBS can't pay much, but we're there to watch
him teach woodworking, not the Delta or Porter Cable Home Shopping
Channel.

Sorry, but this represents a profound misunderstanding of how television
works. Norm is not the boss, he is an employee. To be sure he is a well
compensated, high profile employee but he is not the one who decides what
projects will be made or what tools will be highlighted in any given
program. I imagine he has some input but it is not based upon some
sweetheart deal he has with Delta or Porter Cable. To be fair, this does
not invalidate your assertion that the tool manufacturers influence the
content of the show. I would be naive to believe otherwise. I'll bet that
Masterpiece Theater (underwritten by Exxon-Mobil) is not about to do a
dramatic recreation of the Exxon Valdez oil tanker disaster any time soon
either. It's just that Norm is not the culprit.

But it isn't. It's about demonstrating one $1000 machine after
another doing things that could also be done with a hand scraper or a
chisel

Longtime viewers of NYW know that Norm often uses different methods to
accomplish the same end. And believe it or not, he does use hand tools
although I concede that more often than not he uses power tools (LRod could
probably give you the exact ratio g). However, the program is not called
the OLD Yankee Workshop; it's the NEW Yankee Workshop. And apparently some
people fail to understand that "new" in this case refers to demonstrating
new ways to achieve woodworking results. Quite often that means using new
tools. And that's what attracted Delta and Porter Cable to the show in the
first place.

Lee

--
To e-mail, replace "bucketofspam" with "dleegordon"

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:32:55 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:


But it isn't. It's about demonstrating one $1000 machine after
another doing things that could also be done with a hand scraper or a
chisel

Longtime viewers of NYW know that Norm often uses different methods to
accomplish the same end. And believe it or not, he does use hand tools
although I concede that more often than not he uses power tools (LRod could
probably give you the exact ratio g).

Actually, I can't, quite (thanks for the nod, though). However, I do
have a section in the Tools category labelled Neanderthal. It's not
large, but they're there.

Regarding the previous poster's assertion about " one $1000 machine
after another" I got to thinking about it and tried to grasp how many
tools he has that actually cost $1000 or more. There's the TimeSavers
sander, of course. And the Hitachi resaw. And of course the
Unisaw--the cornerstone of the shop. The RAS, too, and the DJ-20.
Maybe the DC-380. Ah, and the new lathe. I suppose the dust collection
system probably is, too. Then I ran out of $1000 tools.

With the exception of the TimeSavers and the Hitachi, it seems to me
that no one would begrudge the presence or use of any of those tools
in even a just reasonably equipped shop. I mean we're talking
tablesaw, jointer, planer, RAS, DC, and lathe--basic tools. Very good
basic tools, but basic nonetheless.

It just doesn't make sense. Ah! That's it. Norm bashers don't need
sense. They just need to bash.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On 4 Jan 2005 18:29:48 GMT, (Jeffrey
Thunder) calmly ranted:

In article ,
Unisaw A100 writes:
Jeffrey Thunder wrote:
Really? I always pegged you as more of a sheep guy, Keeter.

I tried that. The neighbors look at you funny when you're
riding a sheep.

That's cuz you picked the ugly one.

UA100, who likes cutting the grass and damn it I'm going to

Gawd, now we know you're a sicko!

Luuuuke, feel the force of the dark side.

Mowing sucks; that's why Al Gore invented asphalt.

Oh, yeah? Ask Joni "Paved Parking Lot" Mitchell about that.


OBWW: does painting MDF trim count as woodworking? sigh

You should know better, Jeffwy.


-
In nature's infinite book of secrecy a little I can read. -Shakespeare
------
http://diversify.com Website Application & Database Development

LRod

Last year they were running a contest to "Win Norn's Workshop" which
basically was a win the tools. Of course, the Wide Belt Sander and
that Resaw bandsaw were NOT included, but the bottom line is the
contest rules (fine print) said that the estimated value of the tools
was right around $20k.

And as you enumerated, one could put together pretty much a comparable
shop for probably under $10k. Considering most folks would NOT be
doing this in one big chunk, it really ISN'T economically prohibative
if one actually uses the tools to build "stuff", but for the person
debating about getting into woodworking, and not sure if in a year or
so he will still be woodworking to any real extent, it only makes
sense to start slow, and in that case, a good cabinet saw is a GREAT
START as the cornerstone of a shop, and holds it's resale value pretty
good - all things considered

John

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 13:59:24 +0000, LRod
wrote:

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:32:55 -0500, "Lee Gordon"
wrote:


But it isn't. It's about demonstrating one $1000 machine after
another doing things that could also be done with a hand scraper or a
chisel

Longtime viewers of NYW know that Norm often uses different methods to
accomplish the same end. And believe it or not, he does use hand tools
although I concede that more often than not he uses power tools (LRod could
probably give you the exact ratio g).

Actually, I can't, quite (thanks for the nod, though). However, I do
have a section in the Tools category labelled Neanderthal. It's not
large, but they're there.

Regarding the previous poster's assertion about " one $1000 machine
after another" I got to thinking about it and tried to grasp how many
tools he has that actually cost $1000 or more. There's the TimeSavers
sander, of course. And the Hitachi resaw. And of course the
Unisaw--the cornerstone of the shop. The RAS, too, and the DJ-20.
Maybe the DC-380. Ah, and the new lathe. I suppose the dust collection
system probably is, too. Then I ran out of $1000 tools.

With the exception of the TimeSavers and the Hitachi, it seems to me
that no one would begrudge the presence or use of any of those tools
in even a just reasonably equipped shop. I mean we're talking
tablesaw, jointer, planer, RAS, DC, and lathe--basic tools. Very good
basic tools, but basic nonetheless.

It just doesn't make sense. Ah! That's it. Norm bashers don't need
sense. They just need to bash.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"Upscale" wrote in message
...
"Bob Schmall" wrote in message news:8wgCd.168473

This craftsman vs. artiste-type thread breaks out every so often, and it
will never go away. A hundred years from now it'll be laser-guided saws
vs.
robot-control machines that accept a log at one end and spew out a
cabriole
leg from the other.

I think it comes down to not mattering how something is made as long as
it's
useful, gets compliments from the people we know and costs less than
buying
one. (assuming that one works for free when woodworking)

Aha! J.S. Mills' Utilitarianism rears its head again!
Where's our Court Philosopher? Watson! You're needed here.

Bob

On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 10:55:59 -0600, John wrote:

LRod

Last year they were running a contest to "Win Norn's Workshop" which
basically was a win the tools. Of course, the Wide Belt Sander and
that Resaw bandsaw were NOT included, but the bottom line is the
contest rules (fine print) said that the estimated value of the tools
was right around $20k.

Of course the trick there is that they ALWAYS value the product at
MSRP so that they can get the full write off (all Seinfeld fans can
start the "write-off" dialog here), vs the street price that we, the
great unwashed pay. My post, naturally, related to the street price.
MSRP is for suckers (Seinfeld fans can...).

And as you enumerated, one could put together pretty much a comparable
shop for probably under $10k.

As far as the majors are concerned, yes. If your (or anyone else's)
shop is like mine, however, when you start adding up the routers, jig
saws, circular saws, drills, sanders, chisels, planes, bits, etc. you
can easily double or triple that number.


- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net