With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

I have had repairing some of the teak on my sister's sailboat put on my
list. It looks pretty straight forward, the biggest obstacle will be the
distance from the work (she is in Jacksonville, I am in West Virginia). My
dad was down there this past weekend and was supposed to get some very
detailed measurements, tracings, drawing, pictures, etc, but he and my
mother got chased out by Jeanne before he could, (go figger).

Hope everyone on here faired ok.

Steve P.

Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

My to do list is frozen in time since aug 13. It has only got longer.

I live in Polk County. Intersection of three of four storms.

What a mess. This last one was the worse. At least it was in our area.
My next door neighbor has power but I do not. I am sending this by the
grace of a long extension cord. At least it keeps the freezer and
refridgerator cold. No power for hot water and cooking.

Trees took my back fence out but the house and shop are secrue. I did
have flooding in the shop. As the water receeded the shop drained. I
have everything in pads or rollers so little damage.

I was laid off back in June and the last two months have made it hard
to find work in my field. But that has it up side. I am at home to
take care of the mess. I was expecting the layoff so we were
prepared. The downside. I have been taking care of the mess for 7
weeks and no time for woodworking. I was going to replace the kitchen
cabinets during the layoff.

Oh well








On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:59:49 GMT, "StevenP"
wrote:

With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

I have had repairing some of the teak on my sister's sailboat put on my
list. It looks pretty straight forward, the biggest obstacle will be the
distance from the work (she is in Jacksonville, I am in West Virginia). My
dad was down there this past weekend and was supposed to get some very
detailed measurements, tracings, drawing, pictures, etc, but he and my
mother got chased out by Jeanne before he could, (go figger).

Hope everyone on here faired ok.

Steve P.

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 15:59:49 GMT, "StevenP"
wrote:

With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

Hope everyone on here faired ok.

I'm in Ormond Beach, so we've gotten the better part of three of the
storms, too. We've fared okay. With Charley I had three tree canopies
from a neighbor's trees on my roof. Scored a new chain saw for that
and got it cleared off in a couple of days. Had a driveway-to-driveway
wall of brush over six feet high. Power was out 65 hours.

Frances produced 24 trash bags of small debris and about two or three
cubic yards of larger debris but no damage. Power was out 49 hours.

The area was so cleaned out by those two that we have virtually
nothing to do after Jeanne. Still the power was out for 36 hours this
time.

In my particular location the peak winds seemed about the same in all
three. I think the eye of Charley came over us, but it was fairly
disorganized by the time it got here. It also went through quickly. I
don't think we had strong winds for more than six or seven hours.

Frances in particularly, but Jeanne, too, just blew and blew and blew.
I've never been in a storm that kept the winds up so long. In the case
of Frances, it was because it moved so slowly. In the case of Jeanne
it was because it came through (we were on the north side of it) and
then somewhere between Orlando and Tampa apparently started a sweep to
the north, sort of pivoting around equidistantly from us. Consequently
you could say we got it coming and going.

All's well now, though. But I've had about enough for this year.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:49:58 GMT, rllipham
wrote:

I live in Polk County. Intersection of three of four storms.

Whereabouts? I have a cousin in Lakeland. I'm in Ormond Beach, over on
the east coast.

- -
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

"rllipham" wrote in message

prepared. The downside. I have been taking care of the mess for 7
weeks and no time for woodworking. I was going to replace the kitchen
cabinets during the layoff.

Oh well

My family's thoughts and prayers are with you. We lost our *home* (man,
those four little letters carry one hell of a connotation when it's gone!),
and most of the "stuff" in it, in Allison in 01, so I can appreciate
somewhat how you feel. Things will never be the same, but in many way's
they're better, and the big thing was that no one in our family was hurt.

My hat's off to you for your attitude ... hang in there. Its a tough thing
to deal with, but with family pulling together, the sun will still be
shining on the other side.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

SNIP

Yeah, I lost my boat (which I had just purchased 3 weeks before) when it broke
from the marina dock on the Allegheny River and ended up 80 miles (and 4 locks
& dams) down the Ohio due to the floods from Ivan. Also got to rip out the
basement gameroom carpet (due to flooding) and will be deciding how to replace
it. All in all, though I got off VERY light compared to lots of folks around
here who lost their homes and businesses to the floods.

Dave Hall

In article , StevenP
wrote:

With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

I have had repairing some of the teak on my sister's sailboat put on my
list. It looks pretty straight forward, the biggest obstacle will be the
distance from the work (she is in Jacksonville, I am in West Virginia). My
dad was down there this past weekend and was supposed to get some very
detailed measurements, tracings, drawing, pictures, etc, but he and my
mother got chased out by Jeanne before he could, (go figger).

Hope everyone on here faired ok.

Steve P.


I've got to go to Orlando next week on business. I'm hoping for the
Hurricane bye-week!
Allen

"StevenP" wrote in message
...
With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

-----------------
I'm glad to read in the posts received so far that none here were injured.
But I cannot help but wonder why Americans who face the extremes of climatic
maelstroms don't simply adjust to suit.

Every year we see pictures of wrecked timber frame houses and scattered
trailer parks, so why have them? America is well capable of superb design
and it's a mystery to me why you rebuild again and again what has already
been wrecked.

A dome shape must surely provide more protection even if you insist on
making it out of wood.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 01:42:36 +0100, "gandalf"
wrote:


"StevenP" wrote in message
...
With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

-----------------
I'm glad to read in the posts received so far that none here were injured.
But I cannot help but wonder why Americans who face the extremes of climatic
maelstroms don't simply adjust to suit.

Every year we see pictures of wrecked timber frame houses and scattered
trailer parks, so why have them? America is well capable of superb design
and it's a mystery to me why you rebuild again and again what has already
been wrecked.

A dome shape must surely provide more protection even if you insist on
making it out of wood.


The building codes in FL have been tightened considerably, but this
has been a rather modern change. There are (or were) lots of stick
framed houses in the area that were built before the code updates that
came after Andrew.
================================================== =========================
Chris

A dome shape must surely provide more protection even if you insist on
making it out of wood.

Good Evening to all, I live in Pensacola, Fl., where Ivan came thru, there is a
stucco dome house on the Pensacola Beach, built to Hurricane code since Opal
and Erin came thru here 8 or 9 years ago, the owner and news reporters stayed
in during the Storm, not much damage to the house, but everyone who stayed said
they'd never do it again.

Be safe,
JaNeille

Now if this doesn't count as bizarre I don't know what does. We have been
getting rain from the remnants of Jeanne, and a few hours after I posted
this question, my niece came up from the basement and announced that we had
a swimming pool down there. Sure enough I went down and 3/4 of the basement
had a few inches of water in it. The weird thing was there was a
hissing/bubbling noise all around me. I checked for a leaking main, but it
was pretty apparent that the water had welled up from the sump. I can only
guess that the noise was either water flowing along the outside of the
foundation, or it was air and/or water being pushed through normal
settlement cracks in the foundation. I could also hear the sump making that
classic stalled electric motor hum, so I quickly opened up the well and
pulled the sump out. What I found was a load of construction debris (the
house is only a year old this month) jamming the impellers. I cleared that
mess and quickly got it back in the well and got it pumping. A friend, my
daughter, and my father in law all helped with the clean up. Fortunately I
have two wet vacs and they did a good job of cleaning up. I'm just glad
that I had decided to take this week off from work so I was here to handle
it.

Steve P.

"StevenP" wrote in message
...
With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

I have had repairing some of the teak on my sister's sailboat put on my
list. It looks pretty straight forward, the biggest obstacle will be the
distance from the work (she is in Jacksonville, I am in West Virginia).
My
dad was down there this past weekend and was supposed to get some very
detailed measurements, tracings, drawing, pictures, etc, but he and my
mother got chased out by Jeanne before he could, (go figger).

Hope everyone on here faired ok.

Steve P.

The building codes in FL have been tightened considerably

There are plenty of old houses here that are very close to the current code,
you just have to know what to look for. The CBS house with a poured tie beam
and straps over the trusses is not that new.
Shutters used to be more common than they are today. Lots of people actually
removed the shutters because they looked "dated"
My house was built in 1963 and about the only thing I would expect to lose is
the covering on my roof and that would be an eye wall hit.

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 18:24:24 +0100, LRod
wrote:

On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 16:49:58 GMT, rllipham
wrote:

I live in Polk County. Intersection of three of four storms.

Whereabouts? I have a cousin in Lakeland. I'm in Ormond Beach, over on
the east coast.

I live in West Lakeland. I have lived in Lakeland since 1975. Winter
Haven prior to that to 1958 (moved in 1st grade)

I think most of the structures built to recent standards did pretty well.
seems the UK did not fare that well in the recent flooding incident. I was
there about 15 years ago when they have gale force winds that not only
felled thousands of trees but even blew brick walls over .

Seems it is difficult to imagine many structures standing up to 120 MPH
winds ....

Watching on TV my hearts goes out to those in Florida I wish I was able to
help....mjh


"gandalf" wrote in message
...

"StevenP" wrote in message
...
With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?

-----------------
I'm glad to read in the posts received so far that none here were injured.
But I cannot help but wonder why Americans who face the extremes of
climatic maelstroms don't simply adjust to suit.

Every year we see pictures of wrecked timber frame houses and scattered
trailer parks, so why have them? America is well capable of superb design
and it's a mystery to me why you rebuild again and again what has already
been wrecked.

A dome shape must surely provide more protection even if you insist on
making it out of wood.

Here in Englewood on the west coast of Florida, we have been more than
lucky... times 4.
Charley passed just to the south of us. Frances to the north as did Jeanne
and Ivan.
Nothing more to our place than a few small branches and a ton of pine
needles.
In helping the Red Cross in Punta Gorda I saw the devastation those poor
souls went through, but my heart is made heaviest by the plight of the many
migrant workers in the Arcadia area that are unlikely to receive the same
level of assistance that so many others have.
It is paradoxical that times like these bring out both the best and worst of
humanity... Many shoulder to shoulder working many hours to assist those in
need.
And unfortunately the others, ripping people off with generators at three
times the going rate, stealing anything they can or selling stuff provided
by FEMA or the Red Cross for free.
I read of one household that wound up getting his entire roof tarped due to
a 4X4 size hole, causing many small leaks from the fasteners and FEMA
footing the bill which would have covered the cost of a complete re-roofing
(and the insurance people only want to cover the cost of fixing the original
hole!).
Some people need to be dragged out and shot!
Tom
Maker of Fine Sawdust and Thin Shavings



"StevenP" wrote in message
...
With all of the hurricanes that have come roaring through the southeast I
was wondering if anyone on here has been damaged? I certainly hope not.
Has anyone had their to-do list altered as a result?
snipped 4 BW

"Mike Hide" wrote in message
news:fls6d.276158$mD.146263@attbi_s02...
I think most of the structures built to recent standards did pretty well.
seems the UK did not fare that well in the recent flooding incident.
-------------
Flooding is getting to be a real problem here. It seems to be a combination
of bad planning (building on flood plains) and more extreme weather. It
seems this is likely to continue to get worse and is making many homes
uninsurable which will then make them uninhabitable. Floods that may have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted the
buildings)

I was there about 15 years ago when they have gale force winds that not
only felled thousands of trees but even blew brick walls over .
-------------
That may have been the infamous hurricane of 1987. Wasn't expected and
caused considerable damage. And it barely rated as a category 1.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2533219.stm

We rarely get such winds but most structures survive, with some damage
perhaps. Trees don't seem to be able to withstand it though and they get
blown down all too easy.


Seems it is difficult to imagine many structures standing up to 120 MPH
winds ....
--------------
That's true with conventionlal design, but if such winds were to become a
regular occurance we would have to adapt and design something that would
survive. Which is my point. Parts of the US are prone to hurricanes and
tornadoes but every year the pattern is the same. It must be possible to
built a practically priced structure that offers less resistance to the wind
and still functions well as a home.

It is reasonable to assume that weather patterns are in general are changing
and become more severe more often. That is certainly the case here. Our
winters are now mild and very very wet. Our summers seem to last about 3
days (but then I suppose the Romans could have said that). If the gulf
stream stops we'll all freeze just like the Canadians or Scandinavians and
we are not geared up for it. We will all have to adapt to the weather.

"Mike Hide" wrote in message
news:fls6d.276158$mD.146263@attbi_s02...
I think most of the structures built to recent standards did pretty well.
seems the UK did not fare that well in the recent flooding incident.
-------------
Flooding is getting to be a real problem here. It seems to be a
combination of bad planning (building on flood plains) and more extreme
weather. It seems this is likely to continue to get worse and is making
many homes uninsurable which will then make them uninhabitable. Floods
that may have been expected every 40 years or so now come along every
other year or two. So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in
the flood plains, they will have to push for compensation from the fools
who permitted the buildings)

I was there about 15 years ago when they have gale force winds that not
only felled thousands of trees but even blew brick walls over .
-------------
That may have been the infamous hurricane of 1987. Wasn't expected and
caused considerable damage. And it barely rated as a category 1.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/d...00/2533219.stm

We rarely get such winds but most structures survive, with some damage
perhaps. Trees don't seem to be able to withstand it though and they get
blown down all too easy.


Seems it is difficult to imagine many structures standing up to 120 MPH
winds ....
--------------
That's true with conventionlal design, but if such winds were to become a
regular occurance we would have to adapt and design something that would
survive. Which is my point. Parts of the US are prone to hurricanes and
tornadoes but every year the pattern is the same. It must be possible to
built a practically priced structure that offers less resistance to the
wind and still functions well as a home.

It is reasonable to assume that weather patterns are in general are
changing and become more severe more often. That is certainly the case
here. Our winters are now mild and very very wet. Our summers seem to last
about 3 days (but then I suppose the Romans could have said that). If the
gulf stream stops we'll all freeze just like the Canadians or
Scandinavians and we are not geared up for it. We will all have to adapt
to the weather.
From what I hear hurricane intensity levels are cyclical, and from
predictions the worst is not even over for this season. We hear long ago how
much more intense winters and summers were here in the US and in the UK . I
was a kid in the UK during the winter of 1947 when there were 30 foot drifts
up in Derbyshire where whole passenger trains were buried. I was also around
when Linton and Lindmouth were flooded and that was about 40 or so years ago
in a similar location it seems . As far as that is concerned perhaps the
problem is not man made but purely geographical.

As I mentioned most modern building standards In Florida result in
structures which will withstand hurricane force winds . Building structures
which will withstand tornadic winds which are far more severe seems unlikely
unless they are below ground level....mjh

SNIP
Flooding is getting to be a real problem here. It seems to be a combination
of bad planning (building on flood plains) and more extreme weather. It
seems this is likely to continue to get worse and is making many homes
uninsurable which will then make them uninhabitable. Floods that may have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted the
buildings)
SNIP

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)? On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem. It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......


Dave Hall

Dave Hall

"David Hall" wrote in message
om...
SNIP
(more snippage)
Floods that may have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or
two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted the
buildings)
SNIP

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)?
--------------
It's easy to understand once you realise that our approach is the exact
opposite of what you propose. Over here you build nothing without planning
permission. Nothing. So the local authority responsible for handing out
planning permission is also responsible for ensuring that your proposed
property is not on a toxic waste dump, swamp, grumbling volcano, sink hole,
flood plain etc.

On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem.
----------------
Realistically though most of us buy existing or new development homes. So it
is a role of government to protect potential buyers from charlaten
developers that would build on cheap dodgy land that is a risk to life, limb
and wealth. If you build here without permission the local authority will
knock it down. Even with permission if you build it a couple feet away from
where it should be built they'll knock it down.

It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......
-------------
There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:34:49 +0100, gandalf wrote:

There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

Ever driven through/flown over any of the western states, such as Nevada,
Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming,......

As my old Pappy used to say as he gazed to the empty horizon, "lots of
room for improvement".

-Doug

--
"If you have an apple and I have an apple and we exchange apples
then you and I will still each have one apple.
But if you have an idea and I have one idea and we exchange these
ideas,then each of us will have two ideas" George B. Shaw

"Doug Winterburn" wrote in message
news
On Wed, 29 Sep 2004 22:34:49 +0100, gandalf wrote:

There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

Ever driven through/flown over any of the western states, such as Nevada,
Utah, Arizona, New Mexico, Montana, Wyoming,......

As my old Pappy used to say as he gazed to the empty horizon, "lots of
room for improvement".

----------------
I lived in South Africa for many years and have flown/driven over most of
the region and surrounding countries. Miles and miles of nothing but miles
and miles. England however is a little different.

On 29 Sep 2004 12:51:32 -0700, (David Hall)
wrote:

SNIP
Flooding is getting to be a real problem here. It seems to be a combination
of bad planning (building on flood plains) and more extreme weather. It
seems this is likely to continue to get worse and is making many homes
uninsurable which will then make them uninhabitable. Floods that may have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted the
buildings)
SNIP

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)? On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem. It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......


Dave Hall

individuals building on their own land really aren't the problem. it's
large scale commercial developers buying up what should probably be
farmland or wilds and plonking down thousands of units and expecting
fema to fix it when it all washes away that is the problem....

Hi, I live in Knoxville, TN, we have gotten alot of rain and flooding from
the hurricanes this year. Lot of the blame lays with the contractors and
devolopers, that does there best to skirt regulations and county officials
that won't enforce there own regulations. Are you listening Knox County?

Tony


--
www.votepair.org


wrote in message
...
On 29 Sep 2004 12:51:32 -0700, (David Hall)
wrote:

SNIP
Flooding is getting to be a real problem here. It seems to be a
combination
of bad planning (building on flood plains) and more extreme weather. It
seems this is likely to continue to get worse and is making many homes
uninsurable which will then make them uninhabitable. Floods that may
have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or
two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood
plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted
the
buildings)
SNIP

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)? On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem. It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......


Dave Hall

individuals building on their own land really aren't the problem. it's
large scale commercial developers buying up what should probably be
farmland or wilds and plonking down thousands of units and expecting
fema to fix it when it all washes away that is the problem....

"gandalf" wrote in message

I lived in South Africa for many years and have flown/driven over most of
the region and surrounding countries. Miles and miles of nothing but miles
and miles. England however is a little different.

I visited England for the first time in 30 years this past June and was
struck by how populated the countryside has become compared to when I lived
there in the 60's and 70's. It was really noticeable when flying over.

A portent of things to come in the less populated areas of the world today.
It's happening here in Texas to a startling degree also.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

"David Hall" wrote in message
. com...
SNIP
(more snippage)
Floods that may have
been expected every 40 years or so now come along every other year or
two.
So we will have to adapt. (too late for those living in the flood plains,
they will have to push for compensation from the fools who permitted the
buildings)
SNIP

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)?
--------------
It's easy to understand once you realise that our approach is the exact
opposite of what you propose. Over here you build nothing without planning
permission. Nothing. So the local authority responsible for handing out
planning permission is also responsible for ensuring that your proposed
property is not on a toxic waste dump, swamp, grumbling volcano, sink hole,
flood plain etc.

To each his own I guess, but I find that mindset rather sad.



On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem.
----------------
Realistically though most of us buy existing or new development homes. So it
is a role of government to protect potential buyers from charlaten
developers that would build on cheap dodgy land that is a risk to life, limb
and wealth. If you build here without permission the local authority will
knock it down. Even with permission if you build it a couple feet away from
where it should be built they'll knock it down.

....And not only do you accept that, you seem rather proud of it. Again, I find
the mindset rather sad. A couple feet away from where your lords and masters
gave you permission, huh?


It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......
-------------
There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

Is where I come from, thank god (or the cosmos, or the ying & yang or whatever
for those that find the word god offensive).

Dave Hall

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)? On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem. It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......


Dave Hall

individuals building on their own land really aren't the problem. it's
large scale commercial developers buying up what should probably be
farmland or wilds and plonking down thousands of units and expecting
fema to fix it when it all washes away that is the problem....

Well, the fact that "we" expect FEMA to take care of it seems a problem. Again,
I see no problem with Government telling us that the house we are going to
build or buy is on a floodplain or even possibly some required building code
modifications based on location such as roof straps in hurricane areas or flow
through first floor construction in stream floodplain areas (although I am not
fully convinced that these should be more than strong suggestions). Once we
know these things and decide to build there (or buy there) anyway it should be
our problem. If someone wants to sell us insurance to guard against the
probability of our risks occuring fine, but that should be a market decision.
If nobody is willing to sell us such insurance, that seems a real good
indicator of our stupidity. Further, if mortgage lenders weren't insured by the
government against issuing stupid loans to stupid people then you wouldn't see
many people buying homes that had that much risk as there wouldn't be loans
available. Essentially, we encourage people to build and buy where nobody would
be able to afford to do so in a free market by giving government security
against stupidity and then we want the Government to tell us we can't do these
stupid things that they subsidize and then we want government to pay for our
stupidity if they fail to make it illegal to, say. build a house anywhere in
Florida or within 3 miles of a river. Come on people, are we really small
children in need of such nannying?

Dave Hall

The problem is not what people build today, your insurance carrier and your
mortgage company will require you to build to code (elevation). The problem is
old buildings that were never built to code and are below flood elevation. If
they are not 50% destroyed they can rebuild at their current elevation.
There is also a problem with FEMAs flood maps. A friend of mine in Ohio
(hurricanes are not just a coastal thing) says folks who thought they were 3
feet above the nominal flood plain found out the map was wrong when Ivan hit.

Swingman reports:

I visited England for the first time in 30 years this past June and was
struck by how populated the countryside has become compared to when I lived
there in the 60's and 70's. It was really noticeable when flying over.

A portent of things to come in the less populated areas of the world today.
It's happening here in Texas to a startling degree also.

In Virginia, too. I moved to this area 28 years ago as of October 10 as a
geographical cure for a failed marriage. In that time, Bedford County has
changed from a rural, farming communit with a few homes for commuters to a
bedroom community for Lynchburg and Roanoke. Government size has increased more
than population, because the previous homeowners from outside the area were
primarily retirees, two adults, no kids. Now, we're seeing two adults, three
kids as closer to the norm, so there's a constant search for teachers, the
sheriff's department has increased in size a phenomenal amount (some of that is
empire building rather than need, as is the school situation, where county
schools cost about double what they do elsewhere so they can have prize winning
features such as mosaic floors in foyers).

But the most noticeable part is the traffic. Sheest! Winding, two lane country
roads are not fun with the kind of traffic that is moving over them now.

Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

Dave Hall notes:

If you build here without permission the local authority will
knock it down. Even with permission if you build it a couple feet away from
where it should be built they'll knock it down.

...And not only do you accept that, you seem rather proud of it. Again, I
find
the mindset rather sad. A couple feet away from where your lords and masters
gave you permission, huh?

Dave, to enlighten you, if you put up a non-code structure in many areas of the
U.S. (some rural areas are exempt), you can be forced to tear it down. If you
place a structure too close to a boundary--usually 15' in small cities--you can
be forced to remove the structure or modifiy it.

It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......
-------------
There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

Is where I come from, thank god (or the cosmos, or the ying & yang or
whatever
for those that find the word god offensive).

Neither Parkersburg nor Pittsburgh is going to allow you to build without code
enforcement, though I must say Parkersburg code enforcement tends to be
exceptionally spotty in my limited experience.

Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

David Hall wrote:

I really do not understand that statement. If you want to build your
house on a floodplain and some government flunky doesn't say "you are
not allowed to do that" then the government should become responsible
for your stupidity (or your desire to live in a floodplain)? On the
one hand, I do not think it is the Government's business to tell me
whether or not I can build my house on the floodplain, but on the
other, if I do it should be my problem. It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......


Dave Hall

individuals building on their own land really aren't the problem. it's
large scale commercial developers buying up what should probably be
farmland or wilds and plonking down thousands of units and expecting
fema to fix it when it all washes away that is the problem....


Well, the fact that "we" expect FEMA to take care of it seems a problem. Again,
I see no problem with Government telling us that the house we are going to
build or buy is on a floodplain or even possibly some required building code
modifications based on location such as roof straps in hurricane areas or flow
through first floor construction in stream floodplain areas (although I am not
fully convinced that these should be more than strong suggestions). Once we
know these things and decide to build there (or buy there) anyway it should be
our problem. If someone wants to sell us insurance to guard against the
probability of our risks occuring fine, but that should be a market decision.
If nobody is willing to sell us such insurance, that seems a real good
indicator of our stupidity. Further, if mortgage lenders weren't insured by the
government against issuing stupid loans to stupid people then you wouldn't see
many people buying homes that had that much risk as there wouldn't be loans
available. Essentially, we encourage people to build and buy where nobody would
be able to afford to do so in a free market by giving government security
against stupidity and then we want the Government to tell us we can't do these
stupid things that they subsidize and then we want government to pay for our
stupidity if they fail to make it illegal to, say. build a house anywhere in
Florida or within 3 miles of a river. Come on people, are we really small
children in need of such nannying?

Dave Hall

Don't pick on Florida. Remember the California mudslides, where "we" paid
to rebuild homes for millionaires, more than once?
Joe

On Thu, 30 Sep 2004 08:09:49 -0400, Joe Gorman
wrote:

Don't pick on Florida. Remember the California mudslides, where "we" paid
to rebuild homes for millionaires, more than once?

But that's more like bowling, setting the pins up again so you can
have another go.

"Charlie Self" wrote in message

In Virginia, too. I moved to this area 28 years ago as of October 10 as a
geographical cure for a failed marriage. In that time, Bedford County has
changed from a rural, farming communit with a few homes for commuters to a
bedroom community for Lynchburg and Roanoke.

I remember my grandfather complaining when neighbors moved in about a mile
down the road that ran to his farm. Wonder what he'd think about my
neighbors being 3 and 5 "feet" away, respectively?

Government size has increased more
than population, because the previous homeowners from outside the area
were
primarily retirees, two adults, no kids. Now, we're seeing two adults,
three
kids as closer to the norm, so there's a constant search for teachers, the
sheriff's department has increased in size a phenomenal amount

Gotta pay for that Rambo mentality and the tools that go with it. Many of
these small town police forces could effectively assault some of the smaller
countries in the world today.

(some of that is
empire building rather than need, as is the school situation, where county
schools cost about double what they do elsewhere so they can have prize
winning
features such as mosaic floors in foyers).

Hey ... it all about appearance, you don't have to really teach in that
building. Many of the teachers, and some of the students, are more concerned
with their breast implants, where the money for the next botox is coming
from, and their ultra-white choppers.

With all the money being spent on "self image", including Viagra et al, at
some point the population is going to be well preserved hundred year olds,
with big breasts, bee stung lips, and rock solid hardons, who can't remember
what do with 'em.

But the most noticeable part is the traffic. Sheest! Winding, two lane
country
roads are not fun with the kind of traffic that is moving over them now.

Stick with them if you can though, as they are eventually a self limiting
factor to traffic ... freeways are the developer's friend and will only
contribute to more.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Greg G. wrote in message

We have a town here called Smyrna, and the National Geographic wrote
an article about Atlanta, referring to Smyrna as "the little redneck
town on the outskirts of a bustling city".
smip
It is a ridiculous mess that the local taxpayers
pocketbooks are being squeezed to death over, and you don't DARE drive
through that part of town without running the risk of being ticketed
for having red taillights. The mayor's name is Bacon! Kind of
reminds me of some Burt Reynolds movie from the 70s. "Buford T. Bacon
and the cronies of corruption".

They must teach "increasing the tax base" at some damn mayoral or city
manager seminar somewhere. This is a common occurence.


The police force has a swat team, and all the latest high-tech
do-dads. They carry Glocks, and one cop even wears his gun while
mowing the lawn. It is truly a scary place... It was no better in
1970 - just far less ostentatious. There is hardly population to pay
for all this crap, however.

What scares me about this trend is something we, as woodworkers, should all
be aware of: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

No, the local government types will buy up the property, condemn your
homes or take them through eminent domain

.... and sell it to a private individual or corporation to develop so as to
"increase the tax base".

I'm more inclined to head deep into the Appalachian mountains.

There was a time in this country when a young man, who may have made some
youthful errors in judgment, could go somewhere else, start over, and become
a productive member of the community.

That no longer is the case, and may well be at the root of the frustration
you see in the current 20 and 30 something's that manifests itself in this
pervasive quest to become someone they're not.

I spent a lot of time overseas and a few years back found myself racking my
brains to figure out if there is a better place somewhere outside this
country to raise my family ... the answer has always been "no" but, IMO,
the options here have just about run out also.

PS ... I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is losing his home
because, due to a heart attack and being laid off, he can't pay the property
taxes ... the "tax spenders" are showing no mercy, and the SWAT team will
move him out if he decides to make a stand.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Swingman said:

Greg G. wrote in message
snip
It is a ridiculous mess that the local taxpayers
pocketbooks are being squeezed to death over, and you don't DARE drive
through that part of town without running the risk of being ticketed
for having red taillights. The mayor's name is Bacon! Kind of
reminds me of some Burt Reynolds movie from the 70s. "Buford T. Bacon
and the cronies of corruption".

They must teach "increasing the tax base" at some damn mayoral or city
manager seminar somewhere. This is a common occurence.

All too common. For 10 years I moved throughout Florida trying to
evade this mentality, and finally gave up just to return here. I
would find a nice place, start to get settled, and the bulldozers
would show up. I even lived in the backwoods of New Jersey for a
while - but the cold, the ticks, and Dupont dripping from the faucet
ran me off...

The police force has a swat team, and all the latest high-tech
do-dads. They carry Glocks, and one cop even wears his gun while
mowing the lawn. It is truly a scary place... It was no better in
1970 - just far less ostentatious. There is hardly population to pay
for all this crap, however.

What scares me about this trend is something we, as woodworkers, should all
be aware of: "If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

There were some 20 something boys at the Gas station last night, and
they were comparing the paperwork on charges against them. Police had
charged them IN THEIR HOMES for "Possession by consumption" of
Marihuana. What the hell is that? At least they weren't running
around shooting up pedestrians in some crack-head, dealer territory,
gang war - which is all too common around here. They were playing
video games and smoking a joint. Not too different than a bunch of
guys watching a football game on TV while drinking beer.

No, the local government types will buy up the property, condemn your
homes or take them through eminent domain

... and sell it to a private individual or corporation to develop so as to
"increase the tax base".

That's pretty much what happened. I thought this was illegal?
Condemn and take property, then sell to a private interest? There is
a shopping center on the lot now. There is a long and twisted story
involving arson, politicians and their depraved kids, and State
Senators surrounding this "particular" piece of property.

I'm more inclined to head deep into the Appalachian mountains.

There was a time in this country when a young man, who may have made some
youthful errors in judgment, could go somewhere else, start over, and become
a productive member of the community.

That no longer is the case, and may well be at the root of the frustration
you see in the current 20 and 30 something's that manifests itself in this
pervasive quest to become someone they're not.

One of the BAD ramifications of the computer age...
And when they look around, with fresh, idealistic eyes, and see the
crap that those in power are involved in, it kinda sucks the innocence
right out of them. Hell, it sucks the idealism outta ME.

The white kids want to be rapping gangsters. Black kids want to be
anything else. 30 somethings want to be large lipped, well endowed
sex objects. The elderly just want things to return to the way they
used to be...

No generation in history has witnessed the rapid technological and
societal changes that we have. Every personal infraction is recorded
forever in the databases of Big Brother, your DNA is on file at
ChoicePoint, close knit communities are a dim memory, and Lake
Woebegone is a pipe dream. I'll even bet Edna, Texas isn't the quaint
little town it was 4 years ago...

I spent a lot of time overseas and a few years back found myself racking my
brains to figure out if there is a better place somewhere outside this
country to raise my family ... the answer has always been "no" but, IMO,
the options here have just about run out also.

I have seriously considered Australia. Or maybe another planet. ;-)

PS ... I just got off the phone with a friend of mine who is losing his home
because, due to a heart attack and being laid off, he can't pay the property
taxes ... the "tax spenders" are showing no mercy, and the SWAT team will
move him out if he decides to make a stand.

I hate to hear this - I can empathize with his situation. I hope he
has a lawyer friend who can file for a stay - hiring one of those
bloodsuckers can be more painful and expensive than dealing with the
tax man.

Later,

Greg G.

Greg G. wrote in message

The elderly just want things to return to the way they
used to be...

Its called "perspective".

I have seriously considered Australia. Or maybe another planet. ;-)

I worked there for a time in the early sixties ... from what I've read
lately it is not the same freewheeling place it was then, which is not
surprising, but the memories are still wonderful!

Like dinosaurs, we better get resigned to it.

--
www.e-woodshop.net
Last update: 7/10/04

Greg G. wrote in message
...
Swingman said:

Greg G. wrote in message
snip
That's pretty much what happened. I thought this was illegal?
Condemn and take property, then sell to a private interest? There is
a shopping center on the lot now. There is a long and twisted story
involving arson, politicians and their depraved kids, and State
Senators surrounding this "particular" piece of property.

it usually is. there have been 2 wildly publicized cases in this area
(phoenix, az) in the past few years where the cities involved have been
successfully sued to overturn attempts on private takings. there is
currently a case in front of the supreme court in this session dealing with
this issue.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...9scotus29.html

snip
Later,

Greg G.

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

otforme (Charlie Self) wrote in message ...
Dave Hall notes:

If you build here without permission the local authority will
knock it down. Even with permission if you build it a couple feet away from
where it should be built they'll knock it down.

...And not only do you accept that, you seem rather proud of it. Again, I
find
the mindset rather sad. A couple feet away from where your lords and masters
gave you permission, huh?

Dave, to enlighten you, if you put up a non-code structure in many areas of the
U.S. (some rural areas are exempt), you can be forced to tear it down. If you
place a structure too close to a boundary--usually 15' in small cities--you can
be forced to remove the structure or modifiy it.

Yes, I am aware of building codes. Pennsylvania just passed a
statewide code to replace the thousands of local codes issued by the
outlandish number of municipalities this state has. Again, I don't
mind some basic codes (although ours is absolutely carried away). But
the poster I replied to was not talking about (as best I "heard")basic
codes. He was talking the nasty land use laws that are starting to
take hold in the US like those in Oregon that will only allow homes in
rather circumspect areas of the state even if you own the land. While
in the cities (Incorporated municipalities) you do usually have these
minimum buffer zones between anything you build and your neighbor's
property, as well as minimum frontage from the public roadway, you can
usually shift your home (in design and original construction) about as
much as you want within those bounds.
It would be nice for them to
let me know that it is a floodplain though. I MIGHT even be willing to
accept some reasonable building code stipulations such as flow-through
designs for the first floor, etc. But "permitting" me to use my own
land to build my own home......
-------------
There simply isn't the space to humour the pioneering spirit that you
espouse.

Is where I come from, thank god (or the cosmos, or the ying & yang or
whatever
for those that find the word god offensive).

Neither Parkersburg nor Pittsburgh is going to allow you to build without code
enforcement, though I must say Parkersburg code enforcement tends to be
exceptionally spotty in my limited experience.

Parkersburg may have codes (what a loss of freedom in the Mountain
State) but get out of the municipal boundry into the rest of the
County and it is a different story. They tried to impose codes a year
or two ago and were shut down by the populace. There are some
requirements imposed by a "higher authority" such as EPA regs that
limit how close to a waterway you are allowed a septic system and
federal regs that require certain design criteria if building in the
floodplain of a navigable waterway (such as a flow-through design of
the first floor).

Pittsburgh is in the land of the liberal. One of the reasons for the
statewide building code recently imposed was to reduce the extreme
hardships being imposed by certain large cities and by certain smaller
municipalities that were designed not for safety but to a) minimize
development b)generate kickbacks in the form of massive fees and
payments to have a prayer of approval and c) generate kickbacks in the
form of outright bribes.

Charlie Self
"America does not go abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the
well-wisher to freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and
vindicator only of her own." John Quincy Adams

Swingman said:


Greg G. wrote in message

The elderly just want things to return to the way they
used to be...

Its called "perspective".

So that is what make my joints ache in the morning... ;-)
I am currently in the awkward position of being younger thinking than
my peers, but my body is older than what my mind thinks it should do.

I have seriously considered Australia. Or maybe another planet. ;-)

I worked there for a time in the early sixties ... from what I've read
lately it is not the same freewheeling place it was then, which is not
surprising, but the memories are still wonderful!

I'm sorry to hear that life on other planets has become stolid. ;-)

But, seriously, I remember your tale of Brumby busting...
I guess it's like everywhere else, things change.

Like dinosaurs, we better get resigned to it.

Hey, speak for yourself. ;-)


Greg G.

Charles Spitzer said:


Greg G. wrote in message
.. .

snip
That's pretty much what happened. I thought this was illegal?
Condemn and take property, then sell to a private interest? There is
a shopping center on the lot now.

it usually is. there have been 2 wildly publicized cases in this area
(phoenix, az) in the past few years where the cities involved have been
successfully sued to overturn attempts on private takings. there is
currently a case in front of the supreme court in this session dealing with
this issue.

http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepu...9scotus29.html

snip

regards,
charlie
cave creek, az

Interesting links, Thanks!
Around here, people find it's far easier to just give up and move away
than to fight City Hall. But of course, when things transpire in this
way, it simply provokes more of the same behavior as word gets out to
other municipalities seeking broader tax bases.


Greg G.