After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

On Mon, 01 Jan 2018 16:59:41 GMT, sawdustmaker
wrote:

After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

Maybe I don't understand your question but if the rails extend to the
end of the door, wouldn't they, by definition, become the styles? The
door would then be mounted sideways? This probably isn't usually done
for strength reasons. Since it's not common, it would probably look
weird.

On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can. But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the
rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they
needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the
rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they
needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer. She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on both
sides housed 1,000+ CD's. About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the
rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they
needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on both
sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we? :-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule. I believe tradition is what
has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may have
stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/1/2018 2:09 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the
(vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the
rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they
needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on both
sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?Â*Â* :-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule.Â* I believe tradition is what
has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may have
stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


First I have never made a door, but it seems the rail over the stile
would be stronger from the total door point of view, as the stress would
be across the width of the style, ie nominally 2+ inches length of the
joint. vs stile over rail which would be the bend the joint across the
joint.

ie a book opens freely when you open it oposite the bound side the
(joint), but can be quite strong if you try to tear it in half.

This is dificult to describe, but I hope you see what I am trying to say.





--
2017: The year we learn to play the great game of Euchre

On 2018-01-01, -MIKE- wrote:

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?

Who cares!?

I didn't even know what "rails and stiles" were. Now, thanks to you
all and the internet, I do! Again, thank you to all you 'wood
masters'.

BTW MIKE, how does one apply "rails and stiles" to a "gate post"?
(serious question).

nb

On 2018-01-01, notbob wrote:


BTW MIKE, how does one apply "rails and stiles" to a "gate post"?
(serious question).

DOH! It was a "baby gate" post. OK, now I get it.

nb

On 1/1/2018 1:09 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the
(vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when the
rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when they
needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on both
sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?Â*Â* :-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule.Â* I believe tradition is what
has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may have
stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


I think that 99% of the time factory built furniture will have the rails
between the stiles.

On 1/1/18 2:57 PM, notbob wrote:
On 2018-01-01, -MIKE- wrote:

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?

Who cares!?


Well, for those who do care about it I was simply saying there was a lot
of discussion about it in that thread, in case they wanted to look it up.


I didn't even know what "rails and stiles" were. Now, thanks to you
all and the internet, I do! Again, thank you to all you 'wood
masters'.

BTW MIKE, how does one apply "rails and stiles" to a "gate post"?
(serious question).

nb


HA! Yeah, I saw that you figured it out in your next "post."
That homonym can be confusing in the context of the subjects we often
discuss, huh?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/1/18 3:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 1:09 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the
(vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when
the rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when
they needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on
both sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/

I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?Â*Â* :-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule.Â* I believe tradition is
what has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may
have stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


I think that 99% of the time factory built furniture will have the rails
between the stiles.

That is certainly true.
However, I still contend the reason for that is more form over function
in modern manufacturing.
It certainly looks weird to see cabinet frames and/or doors that have
rails which extend to the sides. But why does it look weird? Because
you hardly ever see it, or because it's structurally unsound?


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

On 1/1/2018 3:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 3:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 1:09 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the
(vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when
the rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when
they needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I did
about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on
both sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we?
:-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule.Â* I believe tradition is
what has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may
have stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


I think that 99% of the time factory built furniture will have the
rails between the stiles.

That is certainly true.
However, I still contend the reason for that is more form over function
in modern manufacturing.
It certainly looks weird to see cabinet frames and/or doors that have
rails which extend to the sides.Â* But why does it look weird?Â* Because
you hardly ever see it, or because it's structurally unsound?


Percisely!

On 1/1/18 5:48 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 3:54 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 3:06 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 1:09 PM, -MIKE- wrote:
On 1/1/18 12:56 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 12:38 PM, Leon wrote:
On 1/1/2018 10:59 AM, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but
thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the
(vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....



Yes they do/can.Â* But the accepted way is as rails between stiles.

I have had the rails past the tops and bottoms of the stiles when
the rail end grain was going to be a visibility issue and or when
they needed to look continuous, like when several doors were in a
row.

Here is an example of the rail over the stile orientation that I
did about 20 years ago for a customer.Â* She wanted it that way.

The center housed a 35" Sony TUBE TV and the tall side drawers on
both sides housed 1,000+ CD's.Â* About 12' wide.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/lcb112...posted-public/


I believe we went through all this on my baby gate post, didn't we? :-D
I don't think there's a set-in-stone rule.Â* I believe tradition is
what has brought us the current configuration and the tradition may
have stemmed from strength of the joint.
With modern techniques, glue, and joinery, I say leave it up to what
works/looks best for you in each circumstance.


I think that 99% of the time factory built furniture will have the
rails between the stiles.

That is certainly true.
However, I still contend the reason for that is more form over
function in modern manufacturing.
It certainly looks weird to see cabinet frames and/or doors that have
rails which extend to the sides.Â* But why does it look weird?Â* Because
you hardly ever see it, or because it's structurally unsound?


Percisely!

I say the first.
No one has yet convinced me that the joint is any weaker.


--

-MIKE-

"Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life"
--Elvin Jones (1927-2004)
--
www.mikedrums.com

"sawdustmaker" wrote in message
...
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought
I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

There is no reason they cannot but if they do it is a good idea to make the
bottom one extend over too. And if there is to be a middle rail, you have
made your life more complicated.

IMO, the main reason for rails over stiles is for outdoor stuff to cover up
the stile end grain, protecting it from water.

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 7:07:35 AM UTC-6, dadiOH wrote:
"sawdustmaker" wrote in message
...
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought
I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

There is no reason they cannot but if they do it is a good idea to make the
bottom one extend over too. And if there is to be a middle rail, you have
made your life more complicated.

IMO, the main reason for rails over stiles is for outdoor stuff to cover up
the stile end grain, protecting it from water.

I'd agree with pretty much everything said, for and against.... and it seems the general application idea is for doors, cabinets, and the like. I suppose the rails over the stiles would, in most/many cases, look awkward for most applications.

A variation (?) of the stile-rail configuration, and considering what works best and what looks best for a design, is the backrest of (example) dining chairs. The top "rail" is over the "stiles" in many chairs, similar chairs.

When I build chairs, I consider the backrest to be a stile-rail construction technique. I don't know if "real chair makers" have a different/correct(?) definition/terminology.

Sonny

On Tuesday, January 2, 2018 at 5:07:35 AM UTC-8, dadiOH wrote:
"sawdustmaker" wrote in message

Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

IMO, the main reason for rails over stiles is for outdoor stuff to cover up
the stile end grain, protecting it from water.

It wasn't a door, but the frame for my TV antenna (it's a wire array
with insulating, wood, support) has the rails-over feature, with the
mortises blind at the top, and through on the bottom. Both mortises
are intended to drain (or at least dry) fast as the rain comes in.

It's a door-like item, with frame-and-no-panel construction.

On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-5, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles capture the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.

On 1/5/2018 3:47 PM, Jay Pique wrote:
On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-5, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles capture the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.


whaaaaaaaat?

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 5:46:47 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 1/5/2018 3:47 PM, Jay Pique wrote:
On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-5, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles capture the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.


whaaaaaaaat?

Any expansion of stiles with rails captured in the middle of them goes to the outside - door gets wider overall - panel opening side to side stays constant. (Rails stay same length, stiles get wider) If stiles are captured by rails where does expansion occur - split equally inside and out? only out? only in? I don't know...depends on the glue up? I'm just thinking of breadboard ends on tables in the northeast. In humid summer table wider than ends, in dry winter table narrower than ends. Much narrower scale of course... And could it also impact the hinges/swing of the door? All expansion normally occurs to non-hinge side overall. The more I think about it, the more I think that stiles capturing rails is the "right" way to do it.... YMMV.

On Fri, 5 Jan 2018 17:07:03 -0800 (PST), JayPique
wrote:

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 5:46:47 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 1/5/2018 3:47 PM, Jay Pique wrote:
On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-5, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but thought I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertical)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....

Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles capture the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.


whaaaaaaaat?

Any expansion of stiles with rails captured in the middle of them goes to the outside - door gets wider overall - panel opening side to side stays constant. (Rails stay same length, stiles get wider) If stiles are captured by rails where does expansion occur - split equally inside and out? only out? only in? I don't know...depends on the glue up? I'm just thinking of breadboard ends on tables in the northeast. In humid summer table wider than ends, in dry winter table narrower than ends. Much narrower scale of course... And could it also impact the hinges/swing of the door? All expansion normally occurs to non-hinge side overall. The more I think about it, the more I think that stiles capturing rails is the "right" way to do it.... YMMV.

The panel isn't captured at all. The frame can grow in any dimension
it likes (panel, same-same). Breadboard ends aren't the same kettle
at all.

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 11:27:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:

The panel isn't captured at all. The frame can grow in any dimension
it likes (panel, same-same). Breadboard ends aren't the same kettle
at all.

Wrong, wrong and wrong. It's clear that you are not Understanding Wood.

- Bruce Hoadley

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 11:27:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:

The panel isn't captured at all. The frame can grow in any dimension
it likes (panel, same-same). Breadboard ends aren't the same kettle
at all.

Based on the above I do not think further discussion is likely to result in mutual understanding.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 06:54:36 -0800 (PST), Jay Pique
wrote:

On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 11:27:19 PM UTC-5, wrote:

The panel isn't captured at all. The frame can grow in any dimension
it likes (panel, same-same). Breadboard ends aren't the same kettle
at all.

Based on the above I do not think further discussion is likely to result in mutual understanding.

Wow! Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Wife cut you off?
Not surprising.

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 10:25:21 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Wow! Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Wife cut you off?
Not surprising.

shrug No, it's just that you are so far from comprehending what I'm speaking about that I don't hold out much hope for your enlightenment.

On Sat, 6 Jan 2018 09:08:46 -0800 (PST), JayPique
wrote:

On Saturday, January 6, 2018 at 10:25:21 AM UTC-5, wrote:

Wow! Someone got up on the wrong side of the bed. Wife cut you off?
Not surprising.

shrug No, it's just that you are so far from comprehending what I'm speaking about that I don't hold out much hope for your enlightenment.

So it wasn't just a coffee thing. You really are an asshole. No
wonder she booted you.

JayPique writes:
On Friday, January 5, 2018 at 5:46:47 PM UTC-5, Leon wrote:
On 1/5/2018 3:47 PM, Jay Pique wrote:
On Monday, January 1, 2018 at 11:59:46 AM UTC-5, sawdustmaker wrote:
After all my years of woodworking you'd think I'd know this but though=
t I'd
ask.
Do (horizontal) rails ever extend over the top/bottoms of the (vertica=
l)
stiles? I always thought rails stopped at the stiles but ....
=20
Traditionally the rails are captured between the stiles, but I suppose =
you could have the stiles captured by the rails. My only thought would be =
that in the latter case you *might* risk binding of a solid wood panel when=
/if the stiles and panel both expand due to humidity. If the stiles captur=
e the rails you eliminate any effect from the stile expansion.
=20
=20
whaaaaaaaat?

Any expansion of stiles with rails captured in the middle of them goes to t=
he outside - door gets wider overall - panel opening side to side stays con=
stant. (Rails stay same length, stiles get wider) If stiles are captured =
by rails where does expansion occur - split equally inside and out? only ou=
t? only in?

While the typical stile and top-bottom rail are generally
narrow enough that any seasonal movement can generally be
ignored (regardless of the top/bottom rail being coped into
the stile, or vice versa), with wide center rails, it can
be beneficial to glue only the center of the rail tenons.