Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE

I was just reading how in the late 1800's, overlapping technologies were
already eroding the craftsmens guilds in England...

On 2/29/2016 10:20 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE

I was just reading how in the late 1800's, overlapping technologies were
already eroding the craftsmens guilds in England...

Never been in the Luddite camp myself, and have always embraced
technology wholeheartedly.

If I was a young man, starting out with a view to going into
cabinetmaking, this is definitely where I would begin.

Although it is sad in a certain sense, like some change always is, I'm
tickled to have lived long enough to see it, and to have played a part
in the early technological advances that are beginning to make it happen
.... nice to see the vision of the last 30 years rapidly coming into focus.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE


Even that will soon be dated... the day is coming when the genetic engineers
will grow cabinets, chairs, etc. for us that will need little more than bark
removal and finish. That is the next step in tree farming. The days of "glue
ups" and "glued up panels" will be behind us. ;~)

On 2/29/2016 9:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE



That is slick!

I wonder if a Sketchup drawing and its components could be loaded into
that machine.

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 12:49:22 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet
wrote:

On 2/29/2016 9:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE



That is slick!

I wonder if a Sketchup drawing and its components could be loaded into
that machine.

It looked to me like they took the design technology of sketchup and
fully dynamic components and put that into their programming for the
machine.

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 09:34:06 -0600, Swingman wrote:


Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE

The annoying part of his videos was seeing his eyes read the story
board.

In the sheet metal industry, they have done the same thing years ago.
It started out like his machine and the CNC machines in just pattern
making and then the sheet metal workers assembled, the ductwork,
piping and fittings, or whatever you programmed into it.

Then that progressed to fully formed ductwork, piping, fittings, pans,
even down to in some cases to adding flanges for fittings. The former
machines a local shop could afford, larger contractors, but the fully
formed stuff ended up mainly in strict production facilities.

Not sure where it is all at now, since I have been out of the trades
for a while.

I remember a story from years ago where I needed a pan fabricated out
of SS, simple enough, with drain line fittings. I drew up what as
needed in a sketch to give them the idea of it, knowing that any
journeyman could knock it out in less than an hour.

Well, as it turned out when I submitted the info, they gave it back
wanting it laid out on a fully drafted drawing in AutoCAD so they
could feed it to the computer. I saw all the old machines just sitting
there, some off to the side, and for sheet metal a huge roll that fed
onto the bed for cutting up in the pattern making days.

I ended up finding a two man shop that did things the old way.

That said, I can certainly see the advantages of this type of a
machine for mass production. Wondering just how far this can be taken?
Especially considering the robotics industry in other products.

On 2/29/2016 10:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE



I don't see it as anything new. My wife just tells me what she wants
and she gets it. Works for her!

In article ,
says...

On 2/29/2016 10:20 AM, Bill wrote:
Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE

I was just reading how in the late 1800's, overlapping technologies were
already eroding the craftsmens guilds in England...

Never been in the Luddite camp myself, and have always embraced
technology wholeheartedly.

If I was a young man, starting out with a view to going into
cabinetmaking, this is definitely where I would begin.

As a young man starting out you'd need rich parents or really good
credit--the thing costs about $160,000.

Although it is sad in a certain sense, like some change always is, I'm
tickled to have lived long enough to see it, and to have played a part
in the early technological advances that are beginning to make it happen
... nice to see the vision of the last 30 years rapidly coming into focus.

On 2/29/2016 6:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

As a young man starting out you'd need rich parents or really good
credit--the thing costs about $160,000.

Actually, that's pretty cheap entry into business these days. Not to
mention that the will to find a way, and a solid work ethic is all its
ever taken.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 13:17:56 -0500, "John Grossbohlin"
wrote:

"Swingman" wrote in message
...

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE


Even that will soon be dated... the day is coming when the genetic engineers
will grow cabinets, chairs, etc. for us that will need little more than bark
removal and finish. That is the next step in tree farming. The days of "glue
ups" and "glued up panels" will be behind us. ;~)

Those days are already gone. Can you say "Ikea"? ;-)

On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 19:09:41 -0600, Swingman wrote:

On 2/29/2016 6:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

As a young man starting out you'd need rich parents or really good
credit--the thing costs about $160,000.

Actually, that's pretty cheap entry into business these days. Not to
mention that the will to find a way, and a solid work ethic is all its
ever taken.

Sure. That's only a couple of Festools. ;-)

On 2/29/2016 7:09 PM, Swingman wrote:
On 2/29/2016 6:46 PM, J. Clarke wrote:

As a young man starting out you'd need rich parents or really good
credit--the thing costs about $160,000.

Actually, that's pretty cheap entry into business these days. Not to
mention that the will to find a way, and a solid work ethic is all its
ever taken.


No kidding. Obviously you would not buy this machine unless you could
keep it busy but it should pay for itself in relatively short order.
Certainly it will eliminate at least one person and dramatically speed
up production.

On 2/29/2016 1:49 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/29/2016 9:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE



That is slick!

I wonder if a Sketchup drawing and its components could be loaded into
that machine.

This looks like any other CNC machine except the programs for making
specific things is already written for you and easily selectable from
menus. I'd guess programmable CNC machines like this also have a
variety of patterns that come with them, or can be purchased. The guy
hinted that absolutely no programing was required. If that means no
programing was possible, I wouldn't want the machine at all. Obviously
someone wrote the programs to do cabinets. A CAD interface certainly
could exist, or be written, for any cad program for this machine.

The main thing is the more machinery you use, the more perfection you
get. The more perfection you get, the further away you get form custom
cabinet making. This thing would be perfect for making furniture for
McDonalds, doctors offices and dept. stores. Not so much for a custom
shop making cabinets for rich people...

--
Jack
Add Life to your Days not Days to your Life.
http://jbstein.com

Jack wrote:
On 2/29/2016 1:49 PM, Leon wrote:
On 2/29/2016 9:34 AM, Swingman wrote:

Just tell Siri what you want ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aJdeerkONE



That is slick!

I wonder if a Sketchup drawing and its components could be loaded into
that machine.

This looks like any other CNC machine except the programs for making
specific things is already written for you and easily selectable from
menus. I'd guess programmable CNC machines like this also have a
variety of patterns that come with them, or can be purchased. The guy
hinted that absolutely no programing was required.
I that translates to, "You don't have to pay the person running the
machine as much".


If that means no programing was possible, I wouldn't want the machine
at all. Obviously someone wrote the programs to do cabinets. A CAD
interface certainly could exist, or be written, for any cad program
for this machine.

The main thing is the more machinery you use, the more perfection you
get. The more perfection you get, the further away you get form
custom cabinet making. This thing would be perfect for making
furniture for McDonalds, doctors offices and dept. stores. Not so much
for a custom shop making cabinets for rich people...

On 03/01/2016 8:49 AM, Jack wrote:
On 2/29/2016 1:49 PM, Leon wrote:
....

I wonder if a Sketchup drawing and its components could be loaded into
that machine.

This looks like any other CNC machine except the programs for making
specific things is already written for you and easily selectable from
menus. I'd guess programmable CNC machines like this also have a variety
of patterns that come with them, or can be purchased. The guy hinted
that absolutely no programing was required. If that means no programing
was possible, I wouldn't want the machine at all. Obviously someone
wrote the programs to do cabinets. A CAD interface certainly could
exist, or be written, for any cad program for this machine.
....


From their web site...

"As an all new type of machine that can be operated by about anyone,
without programming, it can also be operated as a CNC router (through
"CNC Access"), should you ever need to. It executes CNC programs
generated by about any software. In fact, it has software and operating
features that make it a lot more flexible than about any other CNC
router. But there is more.

"With the Cut Ready Cut Center, operating as a cut center instead of a
CNC router, you select and define what you want, resize and cut it, all
right at the machine using an intuitive touch screen. The machine
already knows how to make about anything a typical cabinet shop needs
but, if you want, you can teach it to make your own custom products.
Using Thermwoods eCabinet Systems Design Software and following the Cut
Center protocol, you can develop your own custom products, install them
in the machine and run them the same way. You are not limited. This does
require some training and software skill but offers almost unlimited
capability and huge flexibility. If you would like, Thermwood can do
this for you. With the Cut Ready Cut Center, there are no limits"

--

Personally, I am surprised it has taken this long to get this far. As cutting machines become more sophisticated, more nimble, and yet more easy to use, this type of machinery is just a natural evolution.

I see more and more commercial solutions to joinery that require less skill and attention to detail. CNC carved doors are a snap to finish for an experienced sprayer as opposed to stile/rail/panel construction, so that makes finishing easier as well. If the end product produces innovative joinery techniques that take advantage of digital precision (and joints that can usually be secured with a line of today's excellent adhesives)that is easy to assemble, wastes a tiny bit of material, and actually allows you to program in to use scrap from another job, this is a cabinet maker's dream. Fast, accurate, economical with your labor and material while still turning out a good product is all that can be asked of a machine.

These machines would be a natural extension for Karl and Leon, guys that already detail out the tiniest bit of minutiae before stepping out the shop. If they were full time cabinet makers, building cabinets only for a living, they would be able to set this machine up, go make some phone calls to installers/clients/suppliers/finishers while ti worked. Any force multiplier is a pretty good thing for a businessman.

There can be a collective gasp of despair about the loss of craftsmanship, but the hard news is that real appreciation of it is disappearing rapidly. People aren't used to a higher level of craftsmanship because they rarely see it and don't know what it looks like. If they can find a craftsman, they don't want to pay for a higher level of work. I have seen so many custom furniture and cabinet makers go out of business in the last 40 years I have lost count. They start with the dream, then satisfy a handful of clients that have encouraged them to open a shop, then they have to become businessmen and they fail. Their first few clients don't ask for bids or estimates. They all do after that. Then you have to cultivate new business, keep accurate books, pay taxes a certain way, and on a on. You don't get back to building a Maloof style rocker until you have time.

A machine like that could be ideal if you could keep it busy. Since so many cabinets are painted these days, it seem the door profiler would be a money maker in itself by going to all the home builders and ask them if they want a custom profile, them make their doors only. Or maybe send them a package of parts to the job and have their trim guys assemble the cabinets. You could knock off one-off cabs for remodelers in no time. "Need a vanity built to this exact size? Come by tomorrow with a check and we'll load the pieces".

Imagine someone that is refinishing and repairing cabinets (like I do) being able to call up the guy with the machine and have him make a kitchen full of doors and drawer fronts in a quick, accurate, and economical way, with the profile picked out by the client. Sounds good to me!

Robert

On 03/01/2016 1:34 PM, wrote:
....Commentary elided simply for brevity...

Agree wholeheartedly. The issue isn't "craftsmanship" at all; the
craftsmanship is impeccable in something produced in this manner.

The issue is, for we old-fashioned w-workers, that it isn't hand work
and cut dovetails w/ chisel and saw but the robot doing the work.

But, as you point out, it has become essentially impossible to stay in
business with such a model; there simply isn't a large-enough client
base to support the number of folks who'd like to operate that way.

Too bad in some ways but just fact of life.

I recall (and they reprinted the article just a month or two ago as one
of the retrospective articles) FWW had an essay by Tage Frid on the
demise of such "one-of" shops being econmoically viable published way
back in the early 80s or even maybe late 70s. Ol' Tage wouldn't believe
what's happened since...

--

On Tuesday, March 1, 2016 at 3:05:57 PM UTC-6, dpb wrote:

Agree wholeheartedly. The issue isn't "craftsmanship" at all; the
craftsmanship is impeccable in something produced in this manner.

A very astute and important observation. It raises bar of fit and finish to the point where it is almost impossible for the little guy to equal with a small shop.

The issue is, for we old-fashioned w-workers, that it isn't hand work
and cut dovetails w/ chisel and saw but the robot doing the work.

I have seen you around here for years, so I will assume that you remember when the much vaunted dovetail was the hallmark of craftsmanship. Now, with dovetail jigs being inexpensive and quite accurate, they are more about the setup than the level of expertise needed. IME, no one even notices dovetails anymore.

FWW had an essay by Tage Frid on the
demise of such "one-of" shops being econmoically viable published way
back in the early 80s or even maybe late 70s. Ol' Tage wouldn't believe
what's happened since...

No kidding. And another is in order, too.

Robert

Interesting discussion.

A machine is, so far, only mimicking a "craftsman's" methods.

Sure, the execution of a sequence of methods by a machine may be hard to
beat ... but use of a cookie cutter doesn't guarantee a good tasting
cookie.

Conversations about loss of craftsmanship to a machine always remind me
of a Tom Plamann anecdote about one of his customer's remarks when Tom
attempted to do some of his work with a CNC.

To paraphrase ... "I hired you because I want a Tom Plamann job, not a
machine's!"

Personally, I don't despair about loss of craftsMANship to machines,
because, in the pursuit thereof, "man" will always be the driving force,
and most important part of the result.

And, it also nicely explains why guys like Leon don't have to advertise.

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 10:45:19 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
Interesting discussion.

A machine is, so far, only mimicking a "craftsman's" methods.

Isn't that the goal? Seems every machine for the woodworker has that in mind. Electric board planer instead of hand planes for surfacing, drill presses for perfect 90 degree holes instead of brace and bit, electric routers instead of molding planes, etc.

Again, I think these things are a natural evolution of the genre.

Sure, the execution of a sequence of methods by a machine may be hard to
beat ... but use of a cookie cutter doesn't guarantee a good tasting
cookie.

Couldn't agree more. I once received a shipment of cabinets to install that had been assembled with out of square drawers with poor fitting dovetails.. (BTW, they were sold with the dovetails being a sign of craftsmanship!) Bad enough that the supplier here ordered more and they paid me to take the faces off and screw new ones on.

The thing a machine cannot find a clever solution on its own to accommodate project design features, nor can it change anything on site to adapt to job site conditions. Although there is a real WOW! factor with a fully automated machine, they are best foot forward at demo time and work within the strict parameters of their design and program limitations.

Personally, I don't despair about loss of craftsMANship to machines,
because, in the pursuit thereof, "man" will always be the driving force,
and most important part of the result.

And, it also nicely explains why guys like Leon don't have to advertise.

But could Leon sustain his current level of craftsmanship, design, and artistry over a period of several years? We both know (as does anyone that checks out his WIP photos) that he is not only hard working and dedicated to his craft, but actually gifted as well. IME, skill only gets you so far. Leon is beyond that.

But... in context of making a living for himself and his family, could he do that? It is an unfinished conversation between us. How much work could he bring in that would be needed to pay rent on a small space ($2K a month?), phones, wear and tear on machines, delivery vehicles, a helper/employee, etc.? Would he have the time to lovingly select every board, fuss over every joint, shop hard for just the right hardware, cut/assemble/finish/deliver/install his work after hours of design? Would he have the time to chit chat with well heeled clients as needed, listen to their blather and ideas, collect funds, maintain a set of books (OK... Kim could take that), manage his employee, maintain all machines, promote his business (everyone runs out sometime), and maintain quality control? And an added 5K a month to the bottom line could make a real difference in his current business model. Before retirement, could he have also made mortgage payments, personal expenses, kid expenses, etc.? I dunno... maybe next bottle of bourbon we finish up the discussion.

Leon is an exception to me, not a rule. His talent and workmanship make him unique, and he is in the most enviable position any craftsman could ever be in. Earlier in life he earned his way into this situation through his own hard work in another field, and Kim did the same. Their hard work and commitment /in other fields/ paid their bills when they needed steady cash and enabled them to be where they are today. Leon doesn't need the work and only takes the projects he wants. He told me he doesn't adhere to any strict time schedules, and that his commissions are "done when they are done".

Those last two sentences separate him from the folks that do commissioned wood work as a sole means of support. You have a business and support yourself with it. I have for over thirty years. My model used to be Leon's current model, but truck payments, paying my own college tuition, rent, utilities, employees, slow paying clients, and the slew of things I found out I had to address AFTER I was in full time removed my dream of being the prickly old craftsman working in a messy shop that people came to visit like they would a religious figure. I cherished that idea for years, but with one income, the unpredictable nature of business, and the need to sleep at night, I had to change my personal model.

I think that Leon has the brass ring in his hand, knows it, and seems to be enjoying every moment of it. He should, he earned it! But I hope he chimes in somewhere and puts in his two cents. I would have hated to type out this diatribe only find he feels I have it all wrong.

Although, that wouldn't be the first time that has happened...

Robert

On 03/02/2016 11:59 AM, wrote:
....

The thing a machine cannot find a clever solution on its own to
accommodate project design features, nor can it change anything on site
to adapt to job site conditions. Although there is a real WOW! factor
with a fully automated machine, they are best foot forward at demo time
and work within the strict parameters of their design and program
limitations.

Precisely...what this will do is produce replicas of a given design w/
minimal _additional_ investment in labor after the initial purchase. It
does have the flexibility a stock cabinet doesn't of being able to
adjust to fit any given opening which is an advantage and would work
reasonably well with the kind of precision you normally work to where
the layout is defined before Leon heads to the shop.

_IF_ (yes, the proverbial "big if" ) the preprogrammed profiles and
such are acceptable to the client, then all have to do is punch the
button once the material is loaded, assemble and finish (or vice versa
). But, as you say, if there is a hiccup in a wall or there's a
specific design feature not in the current software base, it comes to a
halt.

....

But could Leon sustain his current level of craftsmanship, design,
and artistry over a period of several years? We both know (as does
anyone that checks out his WIP photos) that he is not only hard
working and dedicated to his craft, but actually gifted as well. IME,
skill only gets you so far. Leon is beyond that.

But... in context of making a living for himself and his family,
could he do that? It is an unfinished conversation between us. ...

There's room for a rare Sam Maloof here and there but even he followed
the model that virtually all that I know now do -- they teach either
classes on their own or in another cooperative or other arrangement
school, write, have other outside sources of income as well as simply
surviving on commission work.

I'm sure there are some in the country who can and do survive that way,
but I surely can't think of any I know of by name at the moment that
don't have something else going on as well. However many of them there
are, it is "a precious few"...

--

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 09:59:45 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 10:45:19 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
Interesting discussion.

A machine is, so far, only mimicking a "craftsman's" methods.

Isn't that the goal? Seems every machine for the woodworker has that in mind. Electric board planer instead of hand planes for surfacing, drill presses for perfect 90 degree holes instead of brace and bit, electric routers instead of molding planes, etc.

Again, I think these things are a natural evolution of the genre.

Sure, the execution of a sequence of methods by a machine may be hard to
beat ... but use of a cookie cutter doesn't guarantee a good tasting
cookie.

Couldn't agree more. I once received a shipment of cabinets to install that had been assembled with out of square drawers with poor fitting dovetails. (BTW, they were sold with the dovetails being a sign of craftsmanship!) Bad enough that the supplier here ordered more and they paid me to take the faces off and screw new ones on.

The thing a machine cannot find a clever solution on its own to accommodate project design features, nor can it change anything on site to adapt to job site conditions. Although there is a real WOW! factor with a fully automated machine, they are best foot forward at demo time and work within the strict parameters of their design and program limitations.

Personally, I don't despair about loss of craftsMANship to machines,
because, in the pursuit thereof, "man" will always be the driving force,
and most important part of the result.

And, it also nicely explains why guys like Leon don't have to advertise.

But could Leon sustain his current level of craftsmanship, design, and artistry over a period of several years? We both know (as does anyone that checks out his WIP photos) that he is not only hard working and dedicated to his craft, but actually gifted as well. IME, skill only gets you so far. Leon is beyond that.

But... in context of making a living for himself and his family, could he do that? It is an unfinished conversation between us. How much work could he bring in that would be needed to pay rent on a small space ($2K a month?), phones, wear and tear on machines, delivery vehicles, a helper/employee, etc.? Would he have the time to lovingly select every board, fuss over every joint, shop hard for just the right hardware, cut/assemble/finish/deliver/install his work after hours of design? Would he have the time to chit chat with well heeled clients as needed, listen to their blather and ideas, collect funds, maintain a set of books (OK... Kim could take that), manage his employee, maintain all machines, promote his business (everyone runs out sometime), and maintain quality control? And an added 5K a month to the bottom line could make a real difference in his current business model. Before retirement, could he have also made mortgage payments, personal expenses, kid expenses,
etc.?
I dunno... maybe next bottle of bourbon we finish up the discussion.

Leon is an exception to me, not a rule. His talent and workmanship make him unique, and he is in the most enviable position any craftsman could ever be in. Earlier in life he earned his way into this situation through his own hard work in another field, and Kim did the same. Their hard work and commitment /in other fields/ paid their bills when they needed steady cash and enabled them to be where they are today. Leon doesn't need the work and only takes the projects he wants. He told me he doesn't adhere to any strict time schedules, and that his commissions are "done when they are done".

Those last two sentences separate him from the folks that do commissioned wood work as a sole means of support. You have a business and support yourself with it. I have for over thirty years. My model used to be Leon's current model, but truck payments, paying my own college tuition, rent, utilities, employees, slow paying clients, and the slew of things I found out I had to address AFTER I was in full time removed my dream of being the prickly old craftsman working in a messy shop that people came to visit like they would a religious figure. I cherished that idea for years, but with one income, the unpredictable nature of business, and the need to sleep at night, I had to change my personal model.

I think that Leon has the brass ring in his hand, knows it, and seems to be enjoying every moment of it. He should, he earned it! But I hope he chimes in somewhere and puts in his two cents. I would have hated to type out this diatribe only find he feels I have it all wrong.

Although, that wouldn't be the first time that has happened...

Robert

There will always be a need for Leon, and men like him. As technology
takes over Profit and ROI will be the ruling factors. There will be
very little effort given to one offs since the profit margin will not
be suitable to do the job.

I already have experienced this type of production runs in my trade. I
have seem major improvements. I have also see the cost of operation go
up. Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts
or retired. I gave one experience of needing a simple drain pan made
up, and where a "dinosaur type" Leon was very necessary.

I also see where even with reasonable QC and bad batch of manufactured
wood products affecting an entire production run requiring a call
back, or the sending of semi-trained people out to the various job
sites for repair or replacement. Wiping out the profit for the next
three or four jobs.

Plus, someone wanting an exact period piece matchup will not be able
to get it as something's will just not match up.

When every medium and large company has access to such engineering and
it becomes commonplace then the bean counters will institute forced
change for profits sake because of intense competition.

End result will be lots of plus' and minus' for the new technology and
an adaptable skilled craftsman will also be able to make a comfortable
living. There is always a niche' to fill.

OFWW wrote:
Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts or
retired.

In related news here, Carrier (furnaces and A/C) is closing it's factory
in Indianapolis soon
and opening one is Mexico where the workers will be paid "$3/hr + about
$3/hr in benefits", according to the CEO. I don't know what the workers
were paid here, but the loss to the local economy (and society) will
certainly be felt.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:33:24 -0500, Bill
wrote:

OFWW wrote:
Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts or
retired.

In related news here, Carrier (furnaces and A/C) is closing it's factory
in Indianapolis soon
and opening one is Mexico where the workers will be paid "$3/hr + about
$3/hr in benefits", according to the CEO. I don't know what the workers
were paid here, but the loss to the local economy (and society) will
certainly be felt.

I just heard about this from Trump. Really very sad on many levels.

Over the years I have had to deal with parts that came from Mexico,
many is the time the parts failed soon after installation or
replacement, and no alternative other than buying another total system
component. It took a while for Japan to get their butts in gear, and a
few other Asian companies, but they did, and as a result took over the
small commercial equipment area while the Americans consolidated
companies. The UK is another area where their technology far exceed
are own in many areas.

Even so there are many ma n pa business installing the stuff in homes,
apt's, and small commercial business.

Many businesses went to Mexico over the years, only to return a few
years later. (In the HVAC and Controls arena's)

OH, BTW. Laughable but true. FORD sends their engines there for
"remanufacturing" I have heard from friends who were associated with
Ford engines that they would find some engines with welded rods (that
failed soon after running) I can't imagine how they balanced it so
that it would run, or run without hitting the heads. LOL

On 3/2/2016 11:59 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, March 2, 2016 at 10:45:19 AM UTC-6, Swingman wrote:
Interesting discussion.

A machine is, so far, only mimicking a "craftsman's" methods.

Isn't that the goal? Seems every machine for the woodworker has that
in mind. Electric board planer instead of hand planes for surfacing,
drill presses for perfect 90 degree holes instead of brace and bit,
electric routers instead of molding planes, etc.

Again, I think these things are a natural evolution of the genre.

I agree! Natural evolution but still with the needs of experience to
run them. Who knew that the Domino mortises align easier when one is a
little over sized. ;~) I just tickles the hell out of me to
occasionally point out something to you and Swingman that you did not
know and how little I bring to the table compared to the two of you!



Sure, the execution of a sequence of methods by a machine may be
hard to beat ... but use of a cookie cutter doesn't guarantee a
good tasting cookie.

Precisely, does the automated machine also pick the wood, pick the
grain, and or know which face to expose? Mother nature produces a
product that only humans can appreciate. Automated machines work best
with materials made by other machines.



Couldn't agree more. I once received a shipment of cabinets to
install that had been assembled with out of square drawers with poor
fitting dovetails. (BTW, they were sold with the dovetails being a
sign of craftsmanship!) Bad enough that the supplier here ordered
more and they paid me to take the faces off and screw new ones on.

There is nothing that looks quite as bad as a DT joint that has parts of
the tails missing or mating pieces that are not smooth, or sanded
smooth. I have seen a placard on a piece of furniture pointing out the
better quality features and the DT's being one of them. The drawers
looked horrible for all of the above reasons.




The thing a machine cannot find a clever solution on its own to
accommodate project design features, nor can it change anything on
site to adapt to job site conditions. Although there is a real WOW!
factor with a fully automated machine, they are best foot forward at
demo time and work within the strict parameters of their design and
program limitations.

Yup, at least not yet....... I learned today that you can now download
wash programs and communicate with your brand new "washing machine"
through your smart phone....... Is that an improvement???


Personally, I don't despair about loss of craftsMANship to
machines, because, in the pursuit thereof, "man" will always be the
driving force, and most important part of the result.

And, it also nicely explains why guys like Leon don't have to
advertise.

Well with friends like you and Robert and a few others on this group,
who needs to advertize. You are right there too AAMOF.



But could Leon sustain his current level of craftsmanship, design,
and artistry over a period of several years? We both know (as does
anyone that checks out his WIP photos) that he is not only hard
working and dedicated to his craft, but actually gifted as well. IME,
skill only gets you so far. Leon is beyond that.

Whew! Is there another Leon you are talking about? I am totally
humbled and deeply appreciate your words. It is always a treat to hear
a customer squeal when I deliver a piece and long before they look
closely. But you have seen my work on numerous occasions and up close,
very up close. I still vividly recall some of your and Swingman's
comments and cherish those words because y'all truly know what goes into
decent work.
I have discovered a pains taking way to build furniture/cabinets that
seems to be a well received design. I have to thank Swingman for
turning on the light for me in this respect. That started many years
ago when we first met and started working together. Specifically it was
the way he designed and we assembled kitchen cabinets. And to be more
specific the way his face frames fit the panels of the cabinets. Three
or four years later I took that a bit further with adding back face
frames joined to the panels same as the front and the back face frames
assembled with a combination of rabbets, lap joints, and floating
tenons. I absolutely give credit to God for the wisdom to notice
important lessons from from friends and colleagues and the knowledge to
do the work that I do.


But... in context of making a living for himself and his family,
could he do that? It is an unfinished conversation between us. How
much work could he bring in that would be needed to pay rent on a
small space ($2K a month?), phones, wear and tear on machines,
delivery vehicles, a helper/employee, etc.? Would he have the time
to lovingly select every board, fuss over every joint, shop hard for
just the right hardware, cut/assemble/finish/deliver/install his work
after hours of design? Would he have the time to chit chat with well
heeled clients as needed, listen to their blather and ideas, collect
funds, maintain a set of books (OK... Kim could take that), manage
his employee, maintain all machines, promote his business (everyone
runs out sometime), and maintain quality control? And an added 5K a
month to the bottom line could make a real difference in his current
business model. Before retirement, could he have also made mortgage
payments, personal expenses, kid expenses, etc.? I dunno... maybe
next bottle of bourbon we finish up the discussion.

Excellent points. I very often make the comment, when talking about my
woodworking, that I absolutely do not earn enough to make a living.
Could I, probably but then it would be a "real" job. Could I be as
picky as I am now? NO!


Leon is an exception to me, not a rule. His talent and workmanship
make him unique, and he is in the most enviable position any
craftsman could ever be in. Earlier in life he earned his way into
this situation through his own hard work in another field, and Kim
did the same. Their hard work and commitment /in other fields/ paid
their bills when they needed steady cash and enabled them to be where
they are today. Leon doesn't need the work and only takes the
projects he wants. He told me he doesn't adhere to any strict time
schedules, and that his commissions are "done when they are done".

Those last two sentences separate him from the folks that do
commissioned wood work as a sole means of support. You have a
business and support yourself with it. I have for over thirty years.
My model used to be Leon's current model, but truck payments, paying
my own college tuition, rent, utilities, employees, slow paying
clients, and the slew of things I found out I had to address AFTER I
was in full time removed my dream of being the prickly old craftsman
working in a messy shop that people came to visit like they would a
religious figure. I cherished that idea for years, but with one
income, the unpredictable nature of business, and the need to sleep
at night, I had to change my personal model.

I think that Leon has the brass ring in his hand, knows it, and seems
to be enjoying every moment of it. He should, he earned it! But I
hope he chimes in somewhere and puts in his two cents. I would have
hated to type out this diatribe only find he feels I have it all
wrong.

I think you hit the nail on the head Robert.
You know I did not see this working out the way it has. Like everyone
else I had a job although I did make a good living and tried to not
spend every penny. And it did not hurt at all that Kim also made a
respectable living. And then one day Kim became pregnant and priorities
changed drastically. I will say that shortly before Bryan was born I
began tidying up our finances and 10 years later we became and still are
debt free, and I mean totally debt free. That is the ticket. I bought
our first computer in 1986 and probably the first program that I loaded
on it was an amortization program and then Lotus 123. Both programs
painted me a picture of where we stood and what we would need to do to
get to where I wanted for us to be. If you have ever heard of Dave
Ramsey then you might be familiar with the method I used. Except I did
not hear of Dave Ramsey until after we were debt free for 10 or so
years. Bryan was in high school and told me about the guy on the radio
that is preaching to do what we did. ;~) Any way there is nothing that
feels quite as good as not having a house, car, or rent payment.
Financial freedom opens countless doors.


Thank you Robert and Swingman for the kind words.






Although, that wouldn't be the first time that has happened...

Robert

Bill wrote:
OFWW wrote:
Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts or
retired.

In related news here, Carrier (furnaces and A/C) is closing it's
factory in Indianapolis soon
and opening one is Mexico where the workers will be paid "$3/hr +
about $3/hr in benefits", according to the CEO. I don't know what the
workers were paid here, but the loss to the local economy (and
society) will certainly be felt.

One of the news reporters asked him, while he was running away, if he
was going to be making $3/hr too! As a result he wasn't able to answer
the question.

On 3/2/2016 6:33 PM, Bill wrote:
OFWW wrote:
Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts or
retired.

In related news here, Carrier (furnaces and A/C) is closing it's factory
in Indianapolis soon
and opening one is Mexico where the workers will be paid "$3/hr + about
$3/hr in benefits", according to the CEO. I don't know what the workers
were paid here, but the loss to the local economy (and society) will
certainly be felt.

I'm going to ask a few questions here and hopefully you and or any one
else will not become offended.

Do you feel that closing the factory and moving it to Mexico is wrong?

Do you shop around for large purchases and try to get the best deal or
do you pick the place with the highest prices for specific items to make
your purchase?

Do you prefer that the government step in and protect businesses by
imposing import taxes on goods manufactured somewhere else?

Do you have a retirement plan or own stock?

Do you believe that trying to keep up with the Jones might be why our
economy is in the shape it is in?


Years ago today's necessities were a luxury which the common family
could not afford. I recall the days when air conditioning was not in
but a few homes, those were the Jones homes. Automobiles with AC, power
steering, power brakes, automatic transmissions, power door locks and
windows, and even FM radio were only in the vehicles that the Jones
drove. Homes with brick and over 1400 sq.ft. were the ones that the
Jones lived in. Sometimes Mrs. Jones worked, seldom did the other wives
work. Oddly enough we youngsters that grew up during that time seemed
to have done just fine in the long run even though our last name was not
Jones. We all ate at the dinner table before retiring for the evening
to watch B&W TV.

Then things changed. The "new" Jones families began to out number the
other families but this was because the moms began to work to help dad
afford the life styles and luxuries that the Jones enjoyed. Meals at
the dinner table were often provided by the producers of TV dinners or
the mom and pop hamburger stand and often the family discussions around
the diner table migrated to a TV tray to watch the new "color" TV. Kids
had less exposure to parenting with mom working at her new job. Often
the kids did not get the supervision that they needed and all too often
some one else's mom stepped in to do the parenting. And unfortunately
not all of the kids got the attention that they needed for a structured
upbringing. You see a lot of those kids in prison today and their kids
got even less attention. And today their kids often still live at home
with mom and dad, well into their adult years.

Not every one is equal and not every one deserves to have what the Jones
have. We live in a society that expects more with less production. We
want top dollar for what is quickly becoming an entry level skill. We
live in a society that believes we should have the best because we were
simply born in the United States. That was not the way it was 50+ years
ago. Back then we earned what we were worth much more so than today.

Unfortunately we still want the pay with out putting in the time and or
realizing that maybe we simply do not contribute enough to justify what
we are paid. Some one had to compensate for our pleasures, luxuries,
and wages that exceeded our grandparents privileges. That is where
cheaper manufactured goods from other countries began to fill the gap.

Are goods manufactured in Mexico and China inferior to USA products?
Sometimes, more often not, and their work forces are getting better at
it than we are. If we are going to survive we are going to have to
compete with the world. We are going to have to swallow the pill and
realize that what we expect to be paid is simply not worth 10 times that
of a person that delivers a product 95% as good.

On 3/2/2016 5:40 PM, OFWW wrote:

Plus, someone wanting an exact period piece matchup will not be able
to get it as something's will just not match up.

Yeppers.

Imagine the shop that relies on a machine, when a client calls and says
I have ten of these 50 year old chairs, but I want/need/must have two
more that are identical to this one, and they are nowhere to be found:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...3?noredirect=1

Basically well-to-do will pay heavily to assuage their must haves ...
this guy traveled from Austin to Houston twice, plus paid handsomely for
this very simple job:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#

Couldn't find a "craftsman" locally with the tools or know how to do the
precision necessary ... and OMG, he just had to have the latest
millennial rage - his old desk magically turned into a standup desk.

End result will be lots of plus' and minus' for the new technology and
an adaptable skilled craftsman will also be able to make a comfortable
living. There is always a niche' to fill.

Bingo, Hell yes, and Yeppers again. The man nailed the elephant in the
thread!

And, as I have said here a few hundred times:

"There's riches in niches"

And the corollary that has never been truer, as evidenced in the links
above:

The more machines that do the work, the more valuable the ability to
fill the resulting voids/niches becomes.

IOW, bring on all those machines, eh Leon? LOL

--
eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com
Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net
https://www.google.com/+eWoodShop
https://plus.google.com/+KarlCaillouet/posts
http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/
KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious)

On 3/3/2016 10:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/2/2016 5:40 PM, OFWW wrote:

Plus, someone wanting an exact period piece matchup will not be able
to get it as something's will just not match up.

Yeppers.

Imagine the shop that relies on a machine, when a client calls and says
I have ten of these 50 year old chairs, but I want/need/must have two
more that are identical to this one, and they are nowhere to be found:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...3?noredirect=1


Basically well-to-do will pay heavily to assuage their must haves ...
this guy traveled from Austin to Houston twice, plus paid handsomely for
this very simple job:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#


Couldn't find a "craftsman" locally with the tools or know how to do the
precision necessary ... and OMG, he just had to have the latest
millennial rage - his old desk magically turned into a standup desk.

End result will be lots of plus' and minus' for the new technology and
an adaptable skilled craftsman will also be able to make a comfortable
living. There is always a niche' to fill.

Bingo, Hell yes, and Yeppers again. The man nailed the elephant in the
thread!

And, as I have said here a few hundred times:

"There's riches in niches"

LOL, and what I have said under my breath, sales are great to those
where money is no object.


And the corollary that has never been truer, as evidenced in the links
above:

The more machines that do the work, the more valuable the ability to
fill the resulting voids/niches becomes.

IOW, bring on all those machines, eh Leon? LOL


Exactly! Machines often speed up production and precision in areas that
you will never see. Take my lap joint double floating tenon joints for
instance. ;~) How many man hours and $$$ do you suppose my Domino has
saved considering that it has cut 10K mortises, even at just $2 per
hour? LOL I would buy another in a heart beat should it poop out.

Building slower does not make for better quality.

Leon wrote:
snip
If we are going to survive we are going to have to compete with the
world. We are going to have to swallow the pill and realize that what
we expect to be paid is simply not worth 10 times that of a person
that delivers a product 95% as good.

Either we're going to teach people 'right' from 'wrong', or the crime
rate may continue to rise. A lot of people seem to like their smart
phones.

It was interesting to read what you wrote, because it was a little like
memory lane (family eating together at the dinner table.., until some
time in the early 70s or so). So no, I don't disagree with you. I
understand basic economics. OTOH, the "relative pay" of people in an
organization could probably use some balancing. Making a few people
"absurdly-rich" off the backs of the masses doesn't seem right. I would
even say that some of the organizations are stealing from their
shareholders (who are among the masses) in this way.

Bill

On 3/3/2016 11:58 AM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
snip
If we are going to survive we are going to have to compete with the
world. We are going to have to swallow the pill and realize that what
we expect to be paid is simply not worth 10 times that of a person
that delivers a product 95% as good.

Either we're going to teach people 'right' from 'wrong', or the crime
rate may continue to rise. A lot of people seem to like their smart
phones.

It was interesting to read what you wrote, because it was a little like
memory lane (family eating together at the dinner table.., until some
time in the early 70s or so). So no, I don't disagree with you. I
understand basic economics. OTOH, the "relative pay" of people in an
organization could probably use some balancing. Making a few people
"absurdly-rich" off the backs of the masses doesn't seem right. I would
even say that some of the organizations are stealing from their
shareholders (who are among the masses) in this way.

Bill



Agreed

Kinda works with the 10 times more pay thing. ;~)

Leon wrote:
On 3/3/2016 11:58 AM, Bill wrote:
Leon wrote:
snip
If we are going to survive we are going to have to compete with the
world. We are going to have to swallow the pill and realize that what
we expect to be paid is simply not worth 10 times that of a person
that delivers a product 95% as good.

Either we're going to teach people 'right' from 'wrong', or the crime
rate may continue to rise. A lot of people seem to like their smart
phones.

It was interesting to read what you wrote, because it was a little like
memory lane (family eating together at the dinner table.., until some
time in the early 70s or so). So no, I don't disagree with you. I
understand basic economics. OTOH, the "relative pay" of people in an
organization could probably use some balancing. Making a few people
"absurdly-rich" off the backs of the masses doesn't seem right. I would
even say that some of the organizations are stealing from their
shareholders (who are among the masses) in this way.

Bill



Agreed

Kinda works with the 10 times more pay thing. ;~)

Some asian companies have a rule that the highest paid person in the
company can only make a certain multiple of the lowest paid person. I
think it's a multiple which is a lot lower than 1,000 --which is
probably not too far off for many large companies these days. This in
not unrelated to the current politics, where it seems many aren't in
favor of a political dynasty (be it Clinton (D) or Bush(R)).

On 03/03/2016 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:

....essay trimmed for brevity...

I shouldn't but will comment on a couple things...

Do I "feel" Carrier shouldn't move? Sure. Do I understand the
economics behind the decision to do so? Different question entirely and
of course I do.

On purchases...no, I obviously don't go out of my way to find the
highest-priced vendor but I _do_ search (with less and less success,
obviously) for USA-made or at least partially assembled product over
(particularly) Chinese import, yes. I _will_ pay a premium for that as
well as I still shop in local brick-'n-mortar businesses as much as can
as opposed to taking everything automagically to the internet. Some of
that is owing to being in a small market arena such that it's a real
concern that losing a vendor is a _major_ loss as, unlike large metro
areas, there isn't another or several others from which to choose.
There's only one of many types of businesses here already and none of
others as WalMart has driven quite a few out already.

Is "keeping up w/ the Jones" responsible for current economic
conditions? Clearly not...consumer spending drives 70% of economy, w/o
it it'd _really_ be in the doldrums or worse. What drives (and drove)
much more is the rising formerly undeveloped economies needing markets
for their own products to support their growing needs at home. Which
need began the price competition that forced US manufacturers to compete
on a global scale as opposed to having a closed US market. Started with
Japan and the automobile and electronics, has gradually escalated with
the rise of Korea, then the other SE Asia, E Europe after Glasnot and
now in spades with China and India. Mexico and NAFTA were on the way in
there, too, of course.

The breakdown of societal norms is a topic too big to even begin to touch...

--

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:32:20 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/3/2016 10:00 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 3/2/2016 5:40 PM, OFWW wrote:

Plus, someone wanting an exact period piece matchup will not be able
to get it as something's will just not match up.

Yeppers.

Imagine the shop that relies on a machine, when a client calls and says
I have ten of these 50 year old chairs, but I want/need/must have two
more that are identical to this one, and they are nowhere to be found:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...3?noredirect=1


Basically well-to-do will pay heavily to assuage their must haves ...
this guy traveled from Austin to Houston twice, plus paid handsomely for
this very simple job:

https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...?noredirect=1#


Couldn't find a "craftsman" locally with the tools or know how to do the
precision necessary ... and OMG, he just had to have the latest
millennial rage - his old desk magically turned into a standup desk.

End result will be lots of plus' and minus' for the new technology and
an adaptable skilled craftsman will also be able to make a comfortable
living. There is always a niche' to fill.

Bingo, Hell yes, and Yeppers again. The man nailed the elephant in the
thread!

And, as I have said here a few hundred times:

"There's riches in niches"

LOL, and what I have said under my breath, sales are great to those
where money is no object.


And the corollary that has never been truer, as evidenced in the links
above:

The more machines that do the work, the more valuable the ability to
fill the resulting voids/niches becomes.

IOW, bring on all those machines, eh Leon? LOL


Exactly! Machines often speed up production and precision in areas that
you will never see. Take my lap joint double floating tenon joints for
instance. ;~) How many man hours and $$$ do you suppose my Domino has
saved considering that it has cut 10K mortises, even at just $2 per
hour? LOL I would buy another in a heart beat should it poop out.

Building slower does not make for better quality.

But in one hundred years people will be clamoring for those good old
fashion antique Domino style joints, shaking their heads while saying,
they just don't make things like they usta.

On 3/3/2016 12:31 PM, dpb wrote:
On 03/03/2016 9:27 AM, Leon wrote:

...essay trimmed for brevity...

I shouldn't but will comment on a couple things...

Do I "feel" Carrier shouldn't move? Sure. Do I understand the
economics behind the decision to do so? Different question entirely and
of course I do.

I totally understand. There are many many things I am sure that went
into the decision to move that facility.



On purchases...no, I obviously don't go out of my way to find the
highest-priced vendor but I _do_ search (with less and less success,
obviously) for USA-made or at least partially assembled product over
(particularly) Chinese import, yes. I _will_ pay a premium for that as
well as I still shop in local brick-'n-mortar businesses as much as can
as opposed to taking everything automagically to the internet. Some of
that is owing to being in a small market arena such that it's a real
concern that losing a vendor is a _major_ loss as, unlike large metro
areas, there isn't another or several others from which to choose.
There's only one of many types of businesses here already and none of
others as WalMart has driven quite a few out already.

What I was thinking when I asked that question is the company, Carrier,
probably did the same thing. Again I'm sure there are many factors,
unknown to the general public, that went into the decision to relocate
in Mexico vs. some where else in the USA, Canada or China. I'm sure
their decision was an economic one to please stock holders. Being a
public company they have to operate under a different kind circumstances.
On an other note, one which I find a bit humorous is Buick and China.
Buick has been a big hit in China for many years. What I find a bit
strange is that China is going to build a specific Buick, for Buick, to
be sold here and not there.




Is "keeping up w/ the Jones" responsible for current economic
conditions? Clearly not...consumer spending drives 70% of economy, w/o
it it'd _really_ be in the doldrums or worse. What drives (and drove)
much more is the rising formerly undeveloped economies needing markets
for their own products to support their growing needs at home. Which
need began the price competition that forced US manufacturers to compete
on a global scale as opposed to having a closed US market. Started with
Japan and the automobile and electronics, has gradually escalated with
the rise of Korea, then the other SE Asia, E Europe after Glasnot and
now in spades with China and India. Mexico and NAFTA were on the way in
there, too, of course.

The breakdown of societal norms is a topic too big to even begin to
touch...

Yes it is.

On 3/3/2016 3:54 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip




Exactly! Machines often speed up production and precision in areas that
you will never see. Take my lap joint double floating tenon joints for
instance. ;~) How many man hours and $$$ do you suppose my Domino has
saved considering that it has cut 10K mortises, even at just $2 per
hour? LOL I would buy another in a heart beat should it poop out.

Building slower does not make for better quality.

But in one hundred years people will be clamoring for those good old
fashion antique Domino style joints, shaking their heads while saying,
they just don't make things like they usta.


You say that and then and oddly I just got turned down to build a
display frame for an antique stained glass window still in the original
window casing/frame. This is a customer that I did some work for about
8~9 years ago. He and his partner had lot's of antiques in their home
and one of them worked in an antique store. Obviously the stained glass
and wood frame were well built, as they were in pretty good shape for
their age. He did not want to make any repairs so much as knock off the
peeling paint and paint over the old paint. The window would have to be
brought back to my shop and I would build the display frame around it,
it would stand about 83" tall and 42" wide. Being a repeat customer I
quoted him a price below my comfort range and apparently that was too
much. Having access to those type antiques I'm sure he got a deal and
expected an even better deal from me. I don't really think he
appreciated the fact that I was going to build something worthy of
holding an antique of this size.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:24:47 -0600, Leon lcb11211@swbelldotnet wrote:

On 3/3/2016 3:54 PM, OFWW wrote:
Snip




Exactly! Machines often speed up production and precision in areas that
you will never see. Take my lap joint double floating tenon joints for
instance. ;~) How many man hours and $$$ do you suppose my Domino has
saved considering that it has cut 10K mortises, even at just $2 per
hour? LOL I would buy another in a heart beat should it poop out.

Building slower does not make for better quality.

But in one hundred years people will be clamoring for those good old
fashion antique Domino style joints, shaking their heads while saying,
they just don't make things like they usta.


You say that and then and oddly I just got turned down to build a
display frame for an antique stained glass window still in the original
window casing/frame. This is a customer that I did some work for about
8~9 years ago. He and his partner had lot's of antiques in their home
and one of them worked in an antique store. Obviously the stained glass
and wood frame were well built, as they were in pretty good shape for
their age. He did not want to make any repairs so much as knock off the
peeling paint and paint over the old paint. The window would have to be
brought back to my shop and I would build the display frame around it,
it would stand about 83" tall and 42" wide. Being a repeat customer I
quoted him a price below my comfort range and apparently that was too
much. Having access to those type antiques I'm sure he got a deal and
expected an even better deal from me. I don't really think he
appreciated the fact that I was going to build something worthy of
holding an antique of this size.

In those 8-9 years I'd bet the cost of things went up higher than he
expected, and so he didn't see what a deal he got. It wouldn't
surprise me one bit to find out later that A:He is now price shopping,
and B: if he doesn't come back to you now that he finds out the cost
of current day pricing that he may very well come back after a while
all chagrinned, that he paid someone near what he paid you only to
find out the quality was lower.

I'd bet you have seen that before.

On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:33:24 -0500, Bill
wrote:

OFWW wrote:
Seen the loss of skilled tradesmen as they moved to other crafts or
retired.

In related news here, Carrier (furnaces and A/C) is closing it's factory
in Indianapolis soon
and opening one is Mexico where the workers will be paid "$3/hr + about
$3/hr in benefits", according to the CEO. I don't know what the workers
were paid here, but the loss to the local economy (and society) will
certainly be felt.

My employer sent all of the production jobs from our site to Mexico in
'08. It's been a bumpy ride but less so than China or Malaysia. The
odd thing is that there are more jobs (doubled in size, twice, since I
started four years ago) now than there were then, and all engineering
and management jobs (though a good percentage are H1s). All of the
production area is now engineering office space. Note that this is a
Japanese company that's investing in engineering, here. Globalization
is a two way street.

On Thu, 3 Mar 2016 12:58:32 -0500, Bill
wrote:

Leon wrote:
snip
If we are going to survive we are going to have to compete with the
world. We are going to have to swallow the pill and realize that what
we expect to be paid is simply not worth 10 times that of a person
that delivers a product 95% as good.

Either we're going to teach people 'right' from 'wrong', or the crime
rate may continue to rise. A lot of people seem to like their smart
phones.

Except that the "crime rate" has been going down for decades.

It was interesting to read what you wrote, because it was a little like
memory lane (family eating together at the dinner table.., until some
time in the early 70s or so). So no, I don't disagree with you. I
understand basic economics. OTOH, the "relative pay" of people in an
organization could probably use some balancing. Making a few people
"absurdly-rich" off the backs of the masses doesn't seem right. I would
even say that some of the organizations are stealing from their
shareholders (who are among the masses) in this way.

No one is forcing anyone to buy the product made by those getting rich
making them.