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#1
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps.
I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? -- Jeff |
#2
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
"woodchucker" wrote in message
I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? Same reason that rocks do...they are flexible and time. In the case of rock strata, LOTS of time. In the case of aliphatic glue, I have never had a problem. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#3
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/26/2013 2:37 PM, woodchucker wrote:
I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? I have no scientific evidence, but a sneaking suspicion that it is a combination of many factors, among others: type of wood and its dimensional instability due to relative humidity/temperature; cut of wood and grain (flatsawn moves in width, quartersawn in thickness); type of glue and amount used; clamping pressure, et al. IOW just about anything that causes dimensional instability in a glued up joint, including finish. -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#4
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:37:20 -0400, woodchucker wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? I took a look at several websites describing it and they can't even agree on what it is, let alone what causes it. Some say glue "bumping" out of the glue line over time is creep. Others talk about two pieces of wood glued together changing position relative to each other. I didn't find anyone mentioning both, which is really the case. But as far as I know, it's caused by the fact that the yellow glue (and white as well) is "plastic" i.e. a petroleum based polymer. It never gets really hard so it can deform or squirm under pressure over time. If you suspect creep could be possibility in a project use hot hide glue or resourcinol or epoxy. I'm sure there are others but those will do. Some say that liquid hide glue will creep, others say no - no definitive answer I could find but I suspect it at least creeps less than PVA glues. Someone else may have more info on that. -- This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub they ripped it off. |
#5
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/26/2013 2:37 PM, woodchucker wrote:
I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? I'll throw in my 2 cents, this type glue remains flexible, wood expands and contracts, no two pieces that form a joint expand or contract exactly the same. |
#6
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
In article ,
woodchucker wrote: I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? -- Jeff The definition of "creep" used in engineering & materials pretty much expalins it: "In materials science, creep (sometimes called cold flow) is the tendency of a solid material to move slowly or deform permanently under the influence of mechanical stresses. It can occur as a result of long-term exposure to high levels of stress that are still below the yield strength of the material." (wikipedia) At high enough temperatures, or given enough time, even steel structures will "creep" -- Often wrong, never in doubt. Larry W. - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#7
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/26/2013 6:32 PM, Larry Blanchard wrote:
On Sat, 26 Oct 2013 15:37:20 -0400, woodchucker wrote: I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? I took a look at several websites describing it and they can't even agree on what it is, let alone what causes it. Some say glue "bumping" out of the glue line over time is creep. Others talk about two pieces of wood glued together changing position relative to each other. I didn't find anyone mentioning both, which is really the case. But as far as I know, it's caused by the fact that the yellow glue (and white as well) is "plastic" i.e. a petroleum based polymer. It never gets really hard so it can deform or squirm under pressure over time. .... The reason the 'bump' is called creep is that it is really extrusion under pressure -- plastic deformation. Whether the two jointed pieces also move relative to each other in net displacement depends on whether and how well they're constrained and in which direction there are sufficient forces. Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. -- |
#8
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's
less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. -- "Fine Woodworking" magazine did a clamping pressure vs. strength test some years ago and found that in almost all case, more pressure was better. Reading that article changed my clamping life and my joints are much better than they used to be. |
#9
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 10:06 AM, scritch wrote:
Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. .... "Fine Woodworking" magazine did a clamping pressure vs. strength test some years ago and found that in almost all case, more pressure was better. Reading that article changed my clamping life and my joints are much better than they used to be. I recall it...and it only confirmed what previous work at US Forest Products Lab and elsewhere has shown... -- |
#10
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 9:02 AM, Larry W wrote:
.... At high enough temperatures, or given enough time, even steel structures will "creep" To be observable, it'll still need the loading until temperatures are quite high... -- |
#11
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 10:02 AM, Larry W wrote:
In article , woodchucker wrote: I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? -- Jeff The definition of "creep" used in engineering & materials pretty much expalins it: "In materials science, creep (sometimes called cold flow) is the tendency of a solid material to move slowly or deform permanently under the influence of mechanical stresses. It can occur as a result of long-term exposure to high levels of stress that are still below the yield strength of the material." (wikipedia) At high enough temperatures, or given enough time, even steel structures will "creep" Ok, I understand that. So how is yellow glue capable of high stresses structurally but not in bent laminations? I would think the stresses structurally would be subject to creep to and therefore lower the structural value. But only bent laminations are devalued.. I understand that bent laminations are under constant stress, but we don't know what or how the glue is used structurally. Imagine a bench that someone sits in 16 hours a day... two shifts... is'nt that under a similar stress? -- Jeff |
#12
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 09:07:22 -0500, dpb wrote:
Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ Agreed. I've always wondered about selling dark vs light glues depending on the color of the wood, because I've never been able to see a glue line after clamping. I did once have a few glue bumps on a project - still don't know why and I've never had it happen again. -- This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub they ripped it off. |
#13
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 13:30:04 -0400, woodchucker wrote:
Imagine a bench that someone sits in 16 hours a day... two shifts... is'nt that under a similar stress? Not really, the boards of the top are not stressed in reference to each other. Now if the legs were bolted to the floor and braced and the top glued to those legs, you'd see sag over time. How much would be creep of the top vs the legs and how much wood fibers elongating is beyond me. -- This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub they ripped it off. |
#14
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 12:30 PM, woodchucker wrote:
.... So how is yellow glue capable of high stresses structurally but not in bent laminations? I would think the stresses structurally would be subject to creep to and therefore lower the structural value. But only bent laminations are devalued.. I understand that bent laminations are under constant stress, but we don't know what or how the glue is used structurally. Imagine a bench that someone sits in 16 hours a day... two shifts... is'nt that under a similar stress? The difference is that in the bent lamination example there's residual stress (and quite a lot) of the bent material trying to return to it's original shape. This is constant and unrelenting; hence over time the plasticity begins to show. In the bench there's some intermittent loading but there really isn't a comparable load between the glue joints that is continuous nor in the tangential direction that is there as the difference in lengths in the curved lamination. -- |
#15
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
dpb wrote:
On 10/27/2013 10:06 AM, scritch wrote: Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. ... "Fine Woodworking" magazine did a clamping pressure vs. strength test some years ago and found that in almost all case, more pressure was better. Reading that article changed my clamping life and my joints are much better than they used to be. I recall it...and it only confirmed what previous work at US Forest Products Lab and elsewhere has shown... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, but based on that, I generally clamp until I begin to get squeeze out and maybe give it a little more tweak for good measure, but stop at that point. That said, I spread my glue and try to avoid excess glue on the surface prior to clamping. This is one area where I do not agree with things I've seen Brian do in his videos. He likes to lay on the glue! -- -Mike- |
#16
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 2:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
.... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, ... Basically, research has shown that there really is no such thing as being able to "starve" a joint by excess pressure with anything approaching a practical application of clamps and cauls that one would use for normal glue-ups. Hmmm....I can't seem to find the link just offhand and don't want to take the time to really look now, but the kinds of clamping pressures that were used are in the _way_on_up_there_ (tm) ranges--actually in the incredible kinds of numbers compared to what we normally think of as clamping pressures. -- |
#17
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
dpb wrote:
On 10/27/2013 2:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, ... Basically, research has shown that there really is no such thing as being able to "starve" a joint by excess pressure with anything approaching a practical application of clamps and cauls that one would use for normal glue-ups. Hmmm....I can't seem to find the link just offhand and don't want to take the time to really look now, but the kinds of clamping pressures that were used are in the _way_on_up_there_ (tm) ranges--actually in the incredible kinds of numbers compared to what we normally think of as clamping pressures. Very good. I did read a long time ago that only a very small amount of glue has to survive the clamps in order to make a good bond and that in fact too much glue might be counterproductive, so what you say above makes sense. -- -Mike- |
#18
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 4:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
dpb wrote: On 10/27/2013 2:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, ... Basically, research has shown that there really is no such thing as being able to "starve" a joint by excess pressure with anything approaching a practical application of clamps and cauls that one would use for normal glue-ups. Hmmm....I can't seem to find the link just offhand and don't want to take the time to really look now, but the kinds of clamping pressures that were used are in the _way_on_up_there_ (tm) ranges--actually in the incredible kinds of numbers compared to what we normally think of as clamping pressures. Very good. I did read a long time ago that only a very small amount of glue has to survive the clamps in order to make a good bond and that in fact too much glue might be counterproductive, so what you say above makes sense. Squeezing out too much glue does not cause a weak joint. The tighter you squeeze the better, the thinner the glue line the better. Glue starvation is the situation when there simply is not enough glue to cover all of the surfaces being joined to begin with. Glue starvation is a condition when not enough glue was applied to cover the surfaces, not squeezing down to a thin layer. |
#19
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ...
dpb wrote: On 10/27/2013 10:06 AM, scritch wrote: Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. ... "Fine Woodworking" magazine did a clamping pressure vs. strength test some years ago and found that in almost all case, more pressure was better. Reading that article changed my clamping life and my joints are much better than they used to be. I recall it...and it only confirmed what previous work at US Forest Products Lab and elsewhere has shown... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, but based on that, I generally clamp until I begin to get squeeze out and maybe give it a little more tweak for good measure, but stop at that point. That said, I spread my glue and try to avoid excess glue on the surface prior to clamping. This is one area where I do not agree with things I've seen Brian do in his videos. He likes to lay on the glue! ================================================== ====================================== The Titebond website says clamping pressure up to 250 PSI should be used. I don't think home woodworkers have to be concerned about over clamping. |
#20
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
"Leon" wrote in message
... On 10/26/2013 2:37 PM, woodchucker wrote: I have never heard an explanation of why aliphatic glue creeps. I have always taken it as gospil. I have a hard time understanding how a glue that creates a joint stronger than the wood itself mostly will creep. Can someone explain to me why this is the case... any one understand the reason? I'll throw in my 2 cents, this type glue remains flexible, wood expands and contracts, no two pieces that form a joint expand or contract exactly the same. ================================================== ========================================== Not saying that glue creep doesnt happen but I've never seen it. I have a few pieces that my father built in Japan in the mid 70s. They went from there (very humid) to the desert (bone dry) then to Seattle (humid) and have seen no creep at all. |
#21
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/13 4:31 PM, Leon wrote:
On 10/27/2013 4:15 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: dpb wrote: On 10/27/2013 2:26 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, ... Basically, research has shown that there really is no such thing as being able to "starve" a joint by excess pressure with anything approaching a practical application of clamps and cauls that one would use for normal glue-ups. Hmmm....I can't seem to find the link just offhand and don't want to take the time to really look now, but the kinds of clamping pressures that were used are in the _way_on_up_there_ (tm) ranges--actually in the incredible kinds of numbers compared to what we normally think of as clamping pressures. Very good. I did read a long time ago that only a very small amount of glue has to survive the clamps in order to make a good bond and that in fact too much glue might be counterproductive, so what you say above makes sense. Squeezing out too much glue does not cause a weak joint. The tighter you squeeze the better, the thinner the glue line the better. Glue starvation is the situation when there simply is not enough glue to cover all of the surfaces being joined to begin with. Glue starvation is a condition when not enough glue was applied to cover the surfaces, not squeezing down to a thin layer. I agree with this and it's been my experience. As long as there is some glue and the entire surface is covered on both pieces, lets it all squeeze out. The science of glue dictates that there need not be any excess glue on the actual surface of the wood, but only what has been absorbed into the fibers. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#22
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On Sun, 27 Oct 2013 15:09:38 -0700, CW wrote:
Not saying that glue creep doesnt happen but I've never seen it. I have a few pieces that my father built in Japan in the mid 70s. I have no idea what kind of glue your father used. It doesn't make any difference unless the conditions we've been talking about here exist. That's a situation where the pieces of wood are under strain in reference to each other and the glue is the only restraint. Any of that furniture have bent laminations in it? -- This message was for rec.woodworking - if it appears in homeownershub they ripped it off. |
#23
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
-MIKE- wrote:
I agree with this and it's been my experience. As long as there is some glue and the entire surface is covered on both pieces, lets it all squeeze out. The science of glue dictates that there need not be any excess glue on the actual surface of the wood, but only what has been absorbed into the fibers. I am not disagreeing with you at all Mike, but I am going to raise a question that is relevant to conversations in this group. We suffer lots of people talking about "science' when in fact there is no science behind the claims they make. Not accusing you of that but I would ask you what the science is you make reference to. -- -Mike- |
#24
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/13 8:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote: I agree with this and it's been my experience. As long as there is some glue and the entire surface is covered on both pieces, lets it all squeeze out. The science of glue dictates that there need not be any excess glue on the actual surface of the wood, but only what has been absorbed into the fibers. I am not disagreeing with you at all Mike, but I am going to raise a question that is relevant to conversations in this group. We suffer lots of people talking about "science' when in fact there is no science behind the claims they make. Not accusing you of that but I would ask you what the science is you make reference to. I completely understand, Mike. It's a tough order and I'll see what I can come up with. This was something I read in print years ago (in school, perhaps) and not on the internet. But I'll look around a see what I can find. As a further explanation, I'll try to paraphrase. The glue, itself, is not what has the strength. It's the way the glue acts in concert with the wood fibers that is the key to the strength. For example, lets say you had a glue joint that contained a section of cured glue between the wood that prevented the wood fibers from touching. To exaggerate, lets say it was 1/8" strip of cured glue. That joint would be much weaker than a [quote] glue-starved [end-quote] joint in which the glue was fully applied to both surfaces but all excess glue was squeezed out by very tight clamping. The wood fibers grabbing each other (for lack of better words) and being cured together with the glue is what gives the strength to the joint. Now, I'm quite certain the textbook or article i read that explained this did a much better job than I just did and I'll do what I can to look it up in the web. -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#25
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 5:52 PM, CW wrote:
"Mike Marlow" wrote in message ... dpb wrote: On 10/27/2013 10:06 AM, scritch wrote: Thinner gluelines are better for minimizing the effect because there's less bulk material there. Which is why higher clamping pressure is _a_good_thing_ (tm) besides the empirical observation from testing that it improves ultimate joint bond strength. ... "Fine Woodworking" magazine did a clamping pressure vs. strength test some years ago and found that in almost all case, more pressure was better. Reading that article changed my clamping life and my joints are much better than they used to be. I recall it...and it only confirmed what previous work at US Forest Products Lab and elsewhere has shown... Only to a point though... correct? Everything I've ever heard was that there is a point where too much pressure will squeeze out too much glue which will result in a weakened joint. Maybe that has been proven not to be true, but based on that, I generally clamp until I begin to get squeeze out and maybe give it a little more tweak for good measure, but stop at that point. That said, I spread my glue and try to avoid excess glue on the surface prior to clamping. This is one area where I do not agree with things I've seen Brian do in his videos. He likes to lay on the glue! ================================================== ====================================== The Titebond website says clamping pressure up to 250 PSI should be used. I don't think home woodworkers have to be concerned about over clamping. I put as much pressure as I can into the joint. The glue will go into the wood as well. the more squeeze out the thinner the amount of glue in the joint.. And that's perfect. -- Jeff |
#26
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 8:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
-MIKE- wrote: I agree with this and it's been my experience. As long as there is some glue and the entire surface is covered on both pieces, lets it all squeeze out. The science of glue dictates that there need not be any excess glue on the actual surface of the wood, but only what has been absorbed into the fibers. I am not disagreeing with you at all Mike, but I am going to raise a question that is relevant to conversations in this group. We suffer lots of people talking about "science' when in fact there is no science behind the claims they make. Not accusing you of that but I would ask you what the science is you make reference to. Many years ago, in shop class we never used premixed glue, we used WeldWood. We clamped the bujeezus out of every thing we glued up. Almost with out fail there was a popping sound when unclamping the wood. With the more modern wood glues that we use today I have not witnessed this popping sound when unclamping. I have to think that the popping sound was a spot that might have not been properly covered with glue and or a portion of the glue that was improperly mixed. Nothing ever came apart what ever the case. Either way, with the modern glues and for the past 35 years I have not had a joint fail because of it being clamped too tightly. That is not scientific but is a result of countless gallons of glue having been used on hundreds of projects. I look at squeeze out as collateral damage. It is wasted glue but a good indicator that the joint was properly closed and I apply pressure until I see squeeze out, and most often more than that. ;~) |
#27
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
woodchucker wrote in
: I put as much pressure as I can into the joint. The glue will go into the wood as well. the more squeeze out the thinner the amount of glue in the joint.. And that's perfect. Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Puckdropper -- Make it to fit, don't make it fit. |
#28
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/13 10:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
woodchucker wrote in : I put as much pressure as I can into the joint. The glue will go into the wood as well. the more squeeze out the thinner the amount of glue in the joint.. And that's perfect. Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Puckdropper Some guys will use cauls across the board to help with alignment. Those would keep that from happening. I usually just find a decent sized tool box or something similar to set on top of the boards. This system would prevent it, as well. http://www.woodcraft.com/product/2000321/1858/woodriver-clamping-system.aspx -- -MIKE- "Playing is not something I do at night, it's my function in life" --Elvin Jones (1927-2004) -- http://mikedrums.com ---remove "DOT" ^^^^ to reply |
#29
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 8:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
.... I am not disagreeing with you at all Mike, but I am going to raise a question that is relevant to conversations in this group. We suffer lots of people talking about "science' when in fact there is no science behind the claims they make. Not accusing you of that but I would ask you what the science is you make reference to. There's a whole field of adhesives science for wood as well as for everything else -- read at US Forest Products Laboratory a little for just some as well as at many of the universities with forest products research areas. Then, of course, the manufacturers do research and development on their own as well. You just missed an international conference ... http://www.forestprod.org/woodadhesives/index-2a.html Or, take a look at a search at amazon... http://books.google.com/books/about/Wood_Adhesives.html?id=y443r1zAnH8C There's plenty of science involved as well as empirical testing. -- |
#30
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
dpb wrote:
On 10/27/2013 8:56 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ... I am not disagreeing with you at all Mike, but I am going to raise a question that is relevant to conversations in this group. We suffer lots of people talking about "science' when in fact there is no science behind the claims they make. Not accusing you of that but I would ask you what the science is you make reference to. There's a whole field of adhesives science for wood as well as for everything else -- read at US Forest Products Laboratory a little for just some as well as at many of the universities with forest products research areas. Then, of course, the manufacturers do research and development on their own as well. You just missed an international conference ... http://www.forestprod.org/woodadhesives/index-2a.html Or, take a look at a search at amazon... http://books.google.com/books/about/Wood_Adhesives.html?id=y443r1zAnH8C There's plenty of science involved as well as empirical testing. Oh - no doubt there is a great deal of science behind the development of wood glues. That was not my question to -Mike-. -- -Mike- |
#31
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
"Puckdropper" wrote: Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? -------------------------------------------- Sounds like cauls would solve your problem. Lew |
#32
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 11:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote:
.... Oh - no doubt there is a great deal of science behind the development of wood glues. That was not my question to -Mike-. Oh, I missed what caught your attention...I don't think that's quite what the article/text he read probably said, exactly... Here's a link to a pretty good exposition from US FPL. I _know_ I've seen a report there that had extensive lab test data on ultimate bond strength vs clamping pressures but I can't seem to find it at the moment. This author doesn't include such data and does comment that starving a joint is possible but he's mostly worried about the porosity "sucking up" too much and moving it away from the joint internally rather than squeeze-out if there's insufficient available. But, it does have excellent discussion of the chemistry/mechanical bonding processes... http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/river91a.pdf If you've not spent some time poking around the US FPL website, it's well worth a few afternoons on otherwise dull days for anybody...the Handbook is invaluable to at least know of its existence. -- |
#33
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 10:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
woodchucker wrote in : I put as much pressure as I can into the joint. The glue will go into the wood as well. the more squeeze out the thinner the amount of glue in the joint.. And that's perfect. Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Puckdropper If the pieces are flat to begin with and you have a problem with the pieces slipping when pressure is applied you can shoot pins or brads through a piece of card board into one edge. the slight protruding pin or brad sill engage the mating piece and not let the pieces slide during clamping. |
#34
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
"Puckdropper" puckdropper(at)yahoo(dot)com wrote in
message Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? One reason for that is that the clamps aren't centered on the edges; i.e., they are - in your example - set so they are applying pressure toward the bottoms of the edges. Try being careful as to where the pressure is on the edge. Despite that care, they may still want to buckle especially if the edges are less than perfect 90 degree angls to the faces. A general cure is to apply clamps across both faces, i.e., to both top and bottom and tighten differentially while checking the faces with a straight edge. -- dadiOH ____________________________ Winters getting colder? Tired of the rat race? Taxes out of hand? Maybe just ready for a change? Check it out... http://www.floridaloghouse.net |
#35
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 10:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Something like these "clamp assists" I made are helpful and easy to make: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19809590270898 Or, whatever it takes: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19809463542642 -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#36
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/28/2013 9:59 AM, Swingman wrote:
On 10/27/2013 10:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote: Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Something like these "clamp assists" I made are helpful and easy to make: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19809590270898 Or, whatever it takes: https://picasaweb.google.com/1113554...19809463542642 **** Google and their damned redirects to what they want you to see: https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink -- eWoodShop: www.eWoodShop.com Wood Shop: www.e-WoodShop.net https://plus.google.com/114902129577517371552/posts http://www.custommade.com/by/ewoodshop/ KarlCaillouet@ (the obvious) |
#37
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/28/2013 8:28 AM, dpb wrote:
.... ... I've seen a report there that had extensive lab test data on ultimate bond strength vs clamping pressures but I can't seem to find it at the moment. This author doesn't include such data ... BTW, these data are/were prepared for the purposes of commercial production purposes, _NOT_ one-of-a-kind manual glue-ups as is normally thought of/practiced here. Consequently what are "high" pressures are well beyond what is achieved by the application of a few bar clamps and manual tightening. And, of course, don't forget when looking at numbers that the denominator in 'psi' is in inches and so has a multiplicative effect for thickness under an inch -- it takes a 4/3-inch in length to counteract 3/4" thickness so that force when converted to psi ends up with higher numerical values than one might expect will be quite easily if don't actually think thru the numbers. -- |
#38
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
On 10/27/2013 10:41 PM, Puckdropper wrote:
wrote in : I put as much pressure as I can into the joint. The glue will go into the wood as well. the more squeeze out the thinner the amount of glue in the joint.. And that's perfect. Sometimes I get boards that want to lift in the middle during a glue-up. That tends to limit the amount of pressure I can apply. What can I do to keep this from happening as I tighten the clamps? Which is where for longer pieces running them over a glue joint profile is really the cat's meow--not only does it give the alignment firmly it adds to the surface joint area... -- |
#39
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
dpb wrote:
On 10/27/2013 11:55 PM, Mike Marlow wrote: ... Oh - no doubt there is a great deal of science behind the development of wood glues. That was not my question to -Mike-. Oh, I missed what caught your attention...I don't think that's quite what the article/text he read probably said, exactly... It happens in newsgroups... Here's a link to a pretty good exposition from US FPL. I _know_ I've seen a report there that had extensive lab test data on ultimate bond strength vs clamping pressures but I can't seem to find it at the moment. This author doesn't include such data and does comment that starving a joint is possible but he's mostly worried about the porosity "sucking up" too much and moving it away from the joint internally rather than squeeze-out if there's insufficient available. But, it does have excellent discussion of the chemistry/mechanical bonding processes... http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/pdf1991/river91a.pdf If you've not spent some time poking around the US FPL website, it's well worth a few afternoons on otherwise dull days for anybody...the Handbook is invaluable to at least know of its existence. Just what I need - another interesting distraction! You really had to go and do that didn't you? You just know where I'll be tonight... -- -Mike- |
#40
Posted to rec.woodworking
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Glue line creep -- yellow glue
Swingman wrote:
**** Google and their damned redirects to what they want you to see: Agreed! https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...t=d irectlink ****-hot, Karl - I like that idea! Clever. Simple, Obvious. Well, maybe not so obvious or I would have know about it long ago. I'm stealing that idea from you brotha. -- -Mike- |
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